Scottish Access - "Hypothetical" golf course issue

what could a private security contractor actually do if they caught you riding on the access track?

Ask you to leave. That's it.

If they want to make it an offence for you to go onto the course they would have to take out an injunction naming you.

Unfortunately they’ll do what they think they can get away with (in a secluded area with no other witnesses). Depending on their orders, they could block your way and ask you to leave. I doubt they’d be directly threatening, more subtle.

Only way to know is to go and see, preferably in a pair with a go pro running. Don’t expect them to know anything about Scottish access rights. Rightly or wrongly, they’re only doing their job, so stay calm.

I had a farm worker race across a field to me, asking if I thought it was necessary to cut through a track. Held my ground and explained I use it to avoid a notorious set of blind corners. Sped off in the huff when he realised I was going to stand my ground. Might have helped I was towing my child trailer at the time.

Avoid confrontation at all costs, it’s just not worth it.

Local council appears to put up with this

Have you had any dialogue with the Access Officer?

do they actually have security guards or just signs saying there are?

Calm but firm; you're exercising only your rights to responsible access. I'd say that the above is sound advice, witness and camera to hand and just be as open as you can. Listen to their position, hear the objections but then make it clear that you intend carrying on. Should be completely fine.

Depending on the area I'd be very cautious about getting on the wrong side of a security firm. Council will probably feel the same.

Have you had any dialogue with the Access Officer?

Not me personally, but the issue has been highlighted to the access officer, they have taken it up with local council, local council has swallowed the 'construction' excuse and has claimed it is up to local community to open negotiations with landowner, which (at last time of checking) 'wasn't possible' due to Covid.

I fully plan to go for an exporatory ride and I guess it is at that point I can re-raise it with access office, maybe get the ball rolling again.

Only way to know is to go and see, preferably in a pair with a go pro running.

Actually that reminds me, my local riding buddy is a 6'6" ex rugby player, probably a useful companion...

Avoid confrontation at all costs, it’s just not worth it.

Agreed. Last time I experienced any sort of aggro with a farmer I actually managed to talk him down (slightly) but we still had to turn around and go back a different way, and overall it just wasn't worth the unpleasantness in the first place.

So private land, with security and you want to go riding there?

So private land, with security and you want to go riding there?

In Scotland, so different rules?

So private land, with security and you want to go riding there?

completely legal in Scotland

Perfectly reasonable to access if done considerately and responsibility.

Is the course maintained I.e cut greens etc?

If it’s potentially dangerous i would have expected it to be fenced off. Would you have to “break in” to access the path?

Depending on the area I’d be very cautious about getting on the wrong side of a security firm.

Why what special powers do you think they have?

If there is a core path going through it then the Council should be doing work to keep that accessible. If it runs through the middle of it and would stop golf being played, then the council could (should?) be speaking to the owner to re-route the core path round the edge (that is already in place).

My tuppence for maybe getting a result.

Perfectly reasonable to access if done considerately and responsibility.

Is the course maintained I.e cut greens etc?

I believe yes, the course is still maintained, just not played (bizarre I know, I think owner is literally so rich that they can afford to maintain a world class golf course for personal use!). Although to be clear, it is only the gravel track going around the course that I would be interested in, wouldn't cross a single fairway or green, and I think in theory wouldn't even interrupt play (from what I can see none of the holes play across the track). Is academic anyway as would only plan to ride it at night as an alternative to local farm tracks etc. which pass too close to houses and would probably be a bit anti-social to ride at night, lighting up folks livingrooms with 1000 lumen LEDs! 😎

So private land, with security and you want to go riding there?

Very convenient large area of previously wild land with tracks and trails that has now been developed as a golf course, yes. The presence of the security is the owner's decision and doesn't infer some sort of special status on the course or the land.

Edit: I should add that there is a decent amount of Strava heatmap activity on the access track in question (but also stories of encounters with security guards and being asked to leave) so there are obviously a lot of people less cowardly (or just less aware of the security guards) than I am, and I know some people who've ridden there and not been accosted. I'd just prefer to go there knowing my rights and what to expect before I go.

Aren't golf course specially excluded from Scottish access rights legislation, apart from being able to to cross them, or something?

My view would be ride it, it's likely you won't get caught. Given your comments about Strava, looks like that's what others are doing.

The Access Code says:

You can only exercise access rights to cross over a golf course and in doing so, you must keep off golf greens at all times and not interfere with any golf games or damage the playing surface. Golf courses are intensively used and managed, and there can be hazards such as where golfers are playing 'blind' shots. In exercising access rights:

allow players to play their shot before crossing a fairway
be still when close to a player about to play
follow paths where they exist, and
keep your dog on a short lead
To avoid damaging the playing surface, cyclists and horse-riders need to keep to paths at all times and not on any other part of a golf course. When fertilisers or pesticides have been used, the duration of any hazard depends on the material used but should not normally extend more than a few days. Golf course managers can ask you to avoid using particular routes at these times. Following such advice can greatly help to minimise risks to safety.

Responsible behaviour by land managers
The Access Code says:

Wherever possible, provide paths around or across the course and/or advise people on the safest ways through the course. This will help to minimise safety risks.

In winter, many people enjoy activities like sledging and cross-country skiing on golf courses. This can be important to local communities. These activities rarely cause any problems if done responsibly - by keeping off greens, tees and bunkers - and when there is sufficient snow cover. Golf course managers are encouraged to accept such access when it is carried out responsibly.

Seems pretty clear cut to me - paths around the course are fine and if no one is playing then the other elements don't apply.

Access Officers can be weak-spined.
I would escalate to the Local Access Forum.

Drop me a PM if you need contacts.

(I know this because of an issue with a major public landowner that has recently erected "No Cycling" signs. Access Officer said it's because of low bridge parapets etc.
Me - Nah.
Now the major public landowner is reviewing access and signage across its entire state. It was that or the front page of the Daily Record).

Aren’t golf course specially excluded from Scottish access rights legislation, apart from being able to to cross them, or something?

You can only exercise access rights to cross over a golf course

Actually this is a good point and for this reason I'm glad I asked as I guess me doing laps (even of an access track and not on the course) technically doesn't constitute 'crossing' the course, it's doing laps of it! 😎

But it's for this reason that I had never intended doing so during playing hours (which in the case of this course is never since it isn't played).

Why what special powers do you think they have?

In some areas the kind that may have alternative business models like tanning salons, taxi firms etc.

@nickc only if they're actually trading and this one sounds like it's been laid out/built but is dormant, not yet trading. You can't be disrupting the owner's commercial activity if they're not trading.

nickc
Full Member
Aren’t golf course specially excluded from Scottish access rights legislation, apart from being able to to cross them, or something?

If its unfinished I doubt it counts and would just be back to reasonable access e.g. dont be a bell-end skidding across new greens etc

(I know this because of an issue with a major public landowner that has recently erected “No Cycling” signs. Access Officer said it’s because of low bridge parapets etc.
Me – Nah.
Now the major public landowner is reviewing access and signage across its entire state. It was that or the front page of the Daily Record).

technically yes, footbridge handrails/edge protection are at a lower level than that deemed necessary for cycling.

more practically dealt with by placing a white on blue cyclists dismount sign on the bridge (which is of course, only a suggestion, not an order as per the HC.)

if no one is playing then the other elements don’t apply.

Apart from keeping off the greens at all times.

However if the course has never opened does any of it apply?

Not me personally, but the issue has been highlighted to the access officer, they have taken it up with local council, local council has swallowed the ‘construction’ excuse and has claimed it is up to local community to open negotiations with landowner, which (at last time of checking) ‘wasn’t possible’ due to Covid.

Talk directly to the access officer yourself.  My experience is access officers can actually be fairly helpful, but people often ask the wrong question or misrepresent the answer.  An answer that was valid in covid may be different now.  An answer that was reasonable if there were diggers moving around may be different now.  An answer about the core path may be different from other parts.  My experience of two different access officers in two different LA's (1) told a farmer he had to remove "no cycling" signs from his gate, (2) told another part of the LA that their intention to charge a group for a particular activity in a public park would probably not be lawful.

As such the security firm couldn’t call the police, and I imagine they couldn’t threaten any sort of physical force, so would they just have to resort to intimidation?

They can call the police.  Whether they attend is a different matter.  Whether if they do attend they do anything to stop you is another matter again.  Is there anything nickable on site?  Could there be any suggestion that you are going with the intent of nicking stuff?  If I was going where I wasn't wanted I'd want to make sure there was no suggestion I was the wrong side of https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1982/45/section/57 - although technically it applies in "open" areas as well its usually used to prosecute people who are found the wrong side of security fences but haven't nicked anything yet.

Personally I go for a bike ride to relax, so whilst I enjoy pointing out when landowners have gone too far, actively seeking confrontation doesn't seem like a way to achieve that.

Access Officers can be weak-spined

Maybe, but in my limited experience they are also under funded and not always supported by higher levels.

more practically dealt with by placing a white on blue cyclists dismount sign on the bridge (which is of course, only a suggestion, not an order as per the HC.)

Push for "Share with Care" signs with narrative information if required.

The landowner has to consider how they will manage the risk to disabled riders who use their cycles as a mobility aid and are not able to dismount. Preventing access to a person with a disability using a cycle as a mobility aid is in breach of the Equality Act and can lead to a case of disability discrimination.

It is often acceptable to warn people of a hazard and give advice on how to manage it rather than ban an activity, especially where the activity is inherintly of benefit. So for example rather than saying "No Cycling" signage could point out: "Low parapet, moderate risk of falling in the river if it is windy or if you only have basic bike handling skills."

By saying "No cycling" at a location where the Land Reform Scotland Act gives the right of responsible access you are risking cyclists who assess that they have the skills to ride over with out falling in the water and know that it is legal for them to do so, then being attacked by pedestrians who think they are breaking the law. It was this sort of incident that convinced Stirling Council to remove the "Cyclist Dismount" signs on the Old Stirling bridge and the Cambuskennith bridge and replace them with "Share with care" signs.

Ex-access officer here, never knowingly weak spined, but definitely under supported by legal services.

The various advice above is generally sound from what you've said of the site and your intended use. As others have said if your confronted, avoid exacerbating the issue, but state what you're doing you believe to be responsible under SOAC and the Land Reform Act, as has been explained by others, and say you'll be contacting the OAO to double check. If they try to stop you after that just leave for now, but do contact your OAO, and with as much detail as possible of location etc.

Even though I'm well aware of my rights I often avoid certain places at certain times to avoid upset or worry to people, especially on as night as you say with lights etc. down farm tracks and yards. It's only natural people will think who the hell is that coming down here at that time of night, or what are they up to. Where I live there's loads of pheasant breeding along the farm tracks down from my house, no one's said anything, but I cringe every time I have to go down and they are driven off making a racket, never mind at night when the dogs will fire up, so I'll pick my times so we can all live happily.

It's good to hear that other people are being similarly sensible, and looking for suitable areas to ride and making sure they're being responsible 👍

Even though I’m well aware of my rights I often avoid certain places at certain times to avoid upset or worry to people, especially on as night as you say with lights etc. down farm tracks and yards. It’s only natural people will think who the hell is that coming down here at that time of night, or what are they up to

Around my neck of the woods, that’s likely to be hare coursers, and they’re really not the sort of people you want to tangle with! There’s lots of money involved, and those people don’t like their ‘sport’ being interfered with. 😖🤬

No fences? Path around the perimeter? Personally I would crack on.

Like clubby I had a local-ish farmer hare up to me to ask what I was doing, and trying to huff and puff about it, once he seen I was standing my ground and knew my access rights, not doing any harm (few minutes conversation) he left knowing there wasn't much he could do about it. Think he is known round here for trying it on

Don't let the bullies win

I think I know where you are. I ride through there frequently.
I've had a chat with the security guys before, and had them hold the locked gate open for me. The guy looked like he'd just been for a run while on duty.

IME, they know your allowed to be there, so won't waste time saying otherwise. I've had similar discussions with the gamekeeper on another very smart local estate too.

I think the extra security fence that appeared around the unfinished building was due to problems with people "using" the underground parking areas.

That's interesting ceept, stories I'd heard so far were either 'no security' or 'met security, asked to leave'.

I had heard of damage being done to the unfinished building and should have mentioned in this thread for completeness, had also heard they now had cameras on said structure, wonder if they are alerted if cameras pick up motion near the building.

If my cough/cold relents I think I'm just going to have to man up and pay a visit at the weekend 😎

From the riding I have done there, the fence basically blocks access to the track around the building so you're not likely to be there anyway (unless just nosey, or up to mischief)
The main track which leads to another gate at the bottom is well used by us, dog walkers, etc. If you go down it, then you can loop through the "proper" golf course back towards the hotel/town - maybe best the other direction in winter to avoid a muddy climb though.

Just watch for all the metal rebar sticking up where they haven't put kerb stones in yet, especially if there in the dark.

If you do meet anyone, just be pleasant & pass the the of day, appearing immediately defensive = hiding something.

Trying to figure out if I know you now 🙂

Trying to figure out if I know you now 🙂

Haha, yeah likewise, haven't bumped into many MTBers on my local rides, but have ridden the muddy climb I think you're talking about a few times (the one with the scarecrow in the hockey mask at the bottom? 😎)

Yup.
TBH, I probably ride at the croft more than anywhere, often with a 7 yr old these days 🙂

Drop me a PM if you're heading out on Saturday, I might have a pass-out.

Seems like a great excuse to have a nice property and keep people out. Just keep a site permanently under construction.

https://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/outdoors/trespassing-laws-it-illegal-trespass-scotland-and-what-are-freedom-roam-rules-3055424

Good article from the Scotsman where it explains how trespass can become a criminal act if you refuse to leave. So if you get caught then just leave, no harm done.

The other way to keep folk off your land is to make it a paid attraction. The sneaky thing is you don't have to be open all year. So even if you wanted to pay to access the land, you can't if it's out of season. Hopetoun does this with its grounds. Shame as there is a couple of nice trails leading down to the woods at the back.

Ceept - will ping you a PM. I'm mostly on the curly bars these days but once I sort out a mini-tubeless disaster I'd like to get the 29er out again.

Hopetoun does this with its grounds. Shame as there is a couple of nice trails leading down to the woods at the back.

I still get those estates confused 🙄 Were there trails between the house grounds and the shoreline? Always meant to walk along the coast below the house...

The other way to keep folk off your land is to make it a paid attraction. The sneaky thing is you don’t have to be open all year.

It's been a while but I am pretty sure that bit is more to do with pre change attractions ie. Blair Drummond safari park etc. I don't think you can just make it an attraction, you'd need planning and you'd probably then subject to tax and loss of subsidies... You know, the stuff big land owners need to keep the playgrounds of the rich bereft of natural flora and fauna

Turn strava off, you were never there.