Scotland Indyref 2

If Scotland is a region then what is England?

Another region?

Then why do we still refer to it when have the North West, North East, South East etc as regions?

I want to be Scottish, I want to be British, I want to be European. That's why I voted No in the the Independence Referendum.

It now appears that I can only have two out of three.

The game has changed.

I am still Scottish. If offered the choice between being British and being European I will reconsider my options. In a year's time I will have had time to consider all the arguments rationally. Today I'm thinking with my heart and would vote for Independence in Europe.

[quote=thv3 ]The link to the United Nations, includes nations, not countries

Ah, we're into semantics then. The EU is a union of [b]member states[/b] - note the UN URL. Sure the EU might recognise you as a country, but not as a state.

Then why do we still refer to it when have the North West, North East, South East etc as regions?

I really don't know. Is the UK now the country consisting of former countries?

If I was Scottish it would be a no-brainer, stay in the EU. You'd probably get the banks moving more roles to Edinburgh rather than Frankfurt...

Then why do we still refer to it when have the North West, North East, South East etc as regions?

Those areas are actually regions, Scotland is not.

Its like a Scot referring to England as "Down South", you might know what they mean, but it doesn't turn the whole of England into a region.

Ah, we're into semantics then. The EU is a union of member states - note the UN URL. Sure the EU might recognise you as a country, but not as a state.

Except, as per the link above; ( http://europa.eu/about-eu/countries/joining-eu/index_en.htm )
[i]Becoming a member of the EU is a complex procedure which does not happen overnight. Once an applicant [b]country[/b] meets the conditions for membership, it must implement EU rules and regulations in all areas.[/i]

aracer - Member
seosamh77 » well see, aracer, no one can be certain about anything at this stage.
Well no, that's one of the big problems! See how the financial markets reacted to a potential IS last time, and I don't think an independence referendum is going to increase the certainty...

[quote=thv3 ]Except, as per the link above; ( http://europa.eu/about-eu/countries/joining-eu/index_en.htm )
Becoming a member of the EU is a complex procedure which does not happen overnight. Once an applicant country meets the conditions for membership, it must implement EU rules and regulations in all areas.

Well in that context they don't recognise you as a country, as already pointed out in the post where the link was given

HTH

You'd probably get the banks moving more roles to Edinburgh rather than Frankfurt...

What is a "role"? Is it a bit like a job?

Well in that context they don't recognise you as a country

HTH

Why do you think Scotland is not a country?

[url= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom ]United Kingdom - Wiki[/url]

Worth a read, including the list of four countries which make up the UK......

I really don't know. Is the UK now the country consisting of former countries?

No it's a political union of existing countries forming a state.

I don't get why there is such hate for leaving the EU.

If Nichola has any sense (and she does) she'll be working hard on getting favourable comments from prominent European figures on how an independent Scotland would be welcome to join (or preferably remain) in the EU.

The more certainty the Scottish electorate have about likely terms and conditions of membership the better her chances of winning a vote.

The best bet would be a statement that Scotland would remain a member under current conditions. That's unlikely to happen though.

[quote=thv3 ]Why do you think Scotland is not a country?

Nothing to do with me, let's rewind:

[quote=thv3 ]a country that is currently in the EU and chose to remain

Scotland isn't a "country in the EU" in the way that is implied by that, as far as the EU is concerned it is a region

[quote=km79 ]I really don't know. Is the UK now the country consisting of former countries?
No it's a political union of existing countries forming a state.

Exactly!

As for border controls, the Schengen zone includes non-EU members Switzerland, Norway, Iceland and Lichtenstein. There are no permanent border controls between those countries and their EU neighbours, although there may be random customs checks.

It would be a superb irony if the EU insisted that rUK sign up to Shengen if they want to remain in the trading zone. They could easily do that but rUK would be unwilling to sign up to it under a Tory government.

Failing that two countries can reach their own agreement not to have border controls. That's the current arrangement between the UK and Ireland. There's no reason why such an agreement couldn't be reached between Scotland and rUK.

Failing that the rUK can install their own controls at the border if they like.

Scotland isn't a "country in the EU" in the way that is implied by that

1. Scotland is a country.
2. Scotland is part of the UK.
3. UK is currently part of the EU.

Therefore Scotland is currently in the EU, although not represented as a separate member state, instead it is represented by the UK the same as England, Wales and Northern Ireland.

as far as the EU is concerned it is a region

According to who? Where?

thv3 » Why do you think Scotland is not a country?

Nothing to do with me, let's rewind:

thv3 » a country that is currently in the EU and chose to remain

Scotland isn't a "country in the EU" in the way that is implied by that, as far as the EU is concerned it is a region

Can you just stop this silly semantic arguing. The rules can be changed with the stroke of a pen if the EU feels like it. That's what Nichola will be working for behind the scenes.

It would be a superb irony if the EU insisted that rUK sign up to Shengen if they want to remain in the trading zone. They could easily do that but rUK would be unwilling to sign up to it under a Tory government.

[quote=donald ]Can you just stop this silly semantic arguing. The rules can be changed with the stroke of a pen if the EU feels like it.

Regarding Scotland being a member of the EU as a country in its own right (and therefore an entity the EU can negotiate with)? I think that would require a bit more than the stroke of a pen, no matter how cynical you might be about the power wielded by unelected beurocrats

God no Shudders

#refereduum threads can never die

Bet I am over the fear by page 10 😉

Can plebs like us petition the EU online like we can for the UK parliament? I.e. petition.parliament.uk

Of course they will and we'll sign up. The tory government campaigned for in. Boris is a complete europhile.

Yep, the only difference Voting Out will achieve is a recession, a change of PM and loss of our rebate. Most likely scenario is we pay more to stay in, lose 73 MEPs, keep immigration unchanged and have to follow all the same EU laws (only now have to say over them having lost our MEPs).

Aracer, Donald - I think the rules are probably clear but irrelevant. Article 50 withdrawal is new territory and if one "region" was breaking away at the same time that would be equally new territory. If they wanted Scotland in, they would decide that in this special case the rules allow it, and if they didn't strangely enough they wouldn't. An opinion would be developed accordingly.
Now they might want Holyrood just to annoy Westminster. Or Spain might not want to set a precedent - but ways might be found around that.

Who knows? But Nicola is off to find out.

Scottish Government: "Can we have another referendum?"

UK Government: "No, **** off, you've already had one"

End of thread.

Scottish Government: "Can we have another referendum?"

UK Government: "No, **** off, you've already had one"

End of thread.

cue music as scottish opportunist anti democratic woman, paints face blue and changes her name to william wallace, muttering you will never take our freedom.

I'm pretty sure telling people how the shizzle is gonna go down is called a dictatorship love, you know its ok to vote as long as I can ignore the result

ninfan - Member
Scottish Government: "Can we have another referendum?"

UK Government: "No, **** off, you've already had one"

End of thread.

I'm pretty sure telling people how the shizzle is gonna go down is called a dictatorship love, you know its ok to vote as long as I can ignore the result

They did vote - and decided to stay in the UK

you were even warned before the vote - by their own leaders - that it was a once in a generation, perhaps even once in a lifetime, opportunity - that quote alone, by both Salmond and Sturgeon, undermines any demand for another one, the UK government can rightfully dismiss any calls to revisit the issue with that answer.

You lost, get over it.

You lost, get over it.

Not sure if you saw the news, but I'm not exactly sure Ms Sturgeon is now seeing it that way.

You lost, get over it.

It's far from over, you won't even know what you've won for at least 2 years, maybe up to 10.

I think Scotland will be long gone by then.

Why wouldn't Boris and the Tories be up for casting Scotland adrift?

YoKaiser - Member
Why wouldn't Boris and the Tories be up for casting Scotland adrift?

Never underestimate Boris, the ultimate opportunist with a classical scholar's perspective. 🙂

He may very well see the advantages of an independent Scotland in the EU and having an open border with England. He's a man who like to have his cake and eat it.

An independent England out of the union ultimately will be for the better. Whether being out of the EU is another matter, because I'm not sure the Commonwealth is all that keen to adopt its previous role.

An independent England out of the union ultimately will be for the better.

How do you know?

An independent England out of the union ultimately will be for the better.

Surely you just want in Independent London / bits of the SE (all the pro EU zones) and the rest of the country can sort itself out and hang a big "no blacks, no irish, no dogs"sign on the front door 😉

ninfan - Member
I'm pretty sure telling people how the shizzle is gonna go down is called a dictatorship love, you know its ok to vote as long as I can ignore the result
They did vote - and decided to stay in the UK

you were even warned before the vote - by their own leaders - that it was a once in a generation, perhaps even once in a lifetime, opportunity - that quote alone, by both Salmond and Sturgeon, undermines any demand for another one, the UK government can rightfully dismiss any calls to revisit the issue with that answer.

You lost, get over it.

Surely you just want in Independent London

Looks like someone figured it out

[quote=igm ]Aracer, Donald - I think the rules are probably clear but irrelevant. Article 50 withdrawal is new territory and if one "region" was breaking away at the same time that would be equally new territory...

At which point you come back to the timescale thing I mentioned above. It doesn't appear to be something the EU is particularly thinking about given they're encouraging us to start the 2 year clock ticking - meanwhile there isn't even a proposal for another referendum on the table. I'm not quite sure what the timescale was last time from them deciding to have one, but IIRC there was going to be 18 months from the referendum to independence.

Of course it also raises interesting questions if Scotland can effectively ignore the referendum result which the EU leaders appear to consider to be binding on the rest of us.

It seems lots of people in Scotland want another referendum - I agree, it's just that I'd like a vote too, and the question I want asking again has nothing to do with the Union between England and Scotland.

It seems lots of people in Scotland want another referendum

I can quite believe it - about 45% of them 😆

I see no problem with Scotland having a 2nd go at the Indy Referundum

As long as everyone gets a 2nd go at in/out

Aracer - yep

They've got a pretty good case, they were told vote yes (to the UK) to stay in the EU, now they find they've been duped....

they were told vote yes (to the UK) to stay in the EU,

I don't remember that being on the ballot paper and everyone knew the Brexit vote was coming. Personally, one of the reasons I voted no in the indyref was I didn't see the point of swapping Westminster rule for Brussels rule.

everyone knew the Brexit vote was coming.

Do the Scots think that the EU would want them??

Do the Scots think that the EU would want them??

They already have them, so staying in the EU is just maintaining the status quo.....

Here we go again. Fresh from their crusade against brown people, fellow Europeans trying to make a better life for themselves and those that pray a bit funny, the bigots attention can now return to the Scottish people. It's nearly been a whole 2 years, let's get that xenophobia for your other neighbors back on display.

Suspect there's less appetite than you might think for another indyref even within the SNP - it's an expensive and exhausting business.

That said if they explore all the other options on the table (e.g reverse greenland, etc) and come up with nothing then they're not really doing their job properly if they don't do their utmost to keep Scotland in the EU.

ninfan - Member

Scottish Government: "Can we have another referendum?"

UK Government: "No, **** off, you've already had one"

End of thread.

given they don't have a majority in our goverment they would have to get holyrood's approval first which I'm doubtful they would.

it also raises interesting questions if Scotland can effectively ignore the referendum result which the EU leaders appear to consider to be binding on the rest of us.

Whatever we say its a complicated issue

the real problem is it could become a massive constitutional crises if Holyrood has a vote and it says leave the UK and the EU accepts

Its hard to see a set of circumstances where we have a civil war with Scotland or we turn it into a new Northern Ireland - ignore the will of the people and impose it with superior military force-

None if us have a clue but i will be very surprised if they dont petition for a ne vote, pretty surprised if Westminster agrees, Not That surprised if they ignore it and then after than I have no idea what happens but it won't be anything like, some of, the simplistic scribbles on here[ not aimed at aracer]

"They already have them, so staying in the EU is just maintaining the status quo....."

Not really, they joined as part of the UK not as an independent country.

If England and Wales secede from the United Kingdom that would work.

aracer - Member

It seems lots of people in Scotland want another referendum - I agree, it's just that I'd like a vote too, and the question I want asking again has nothing to do with the Union between England and Scotland.

😆 so you're willing to drag us down with you too out of spite.

good luck with that.

Judging by the front page of today's Daily Record and the tone of the articles in The Scotsman and The Herald I think we might see much more pro-independence rhetoric from the mainstream media this time around.

given they don't have a majority in our goverment they would have to get holyrood's approval first which I'm doubtful they would.

You do realise the greens are pro independence?

I want to be Scottish, I want to be British, I want to be European. That's why I voted No in the the Independence Referendum.
It now appears that I can only have two out of three.
The game has changed.
I am still Scottish. If offered the choice between being British and being European I will reconsider my options. In a year's time I will have had time to consider all the arguments rationally. Today I'm thinking with my heart and would vote for Independence in Europe.

This quite closely echoes the way I feel just now, however I don't wish the timescale to be too hasty. I would like to see how post brexit UK and EU pan out, as both have now started a process that will have big changes.

I personally would wait until close to the next general election 3-4 years.

km79 - Member
Here we go again. Fresh from their crusade against brown people, fellow Europeans trying to make a better life for themselves and those that pray a bit funny, the bigots attention can now return to the Scottish people. It's nearly been a whole 2 years, let's get that xenophobia for your other neighbors back on display.

This says it all 🙂

[img] ?oh=9daea4e24bfed766d9203a8cc47963fb&oe=57F145DA[/img]

Suspect there's less appetite than you might think for another indyref even within the SNP - it's an expensive and exhausting business.

I'll be supporting it financially. I don't see why the Scottish should suffer just because England and Wales have chosen to turn the UK into a backwater failed state, all in the name of [s]racism[/s] concern about immigration.

If athgray is considering independence, we must be in with a chance! 😆

If England and Wales secede from the United Kingdom that would work.

Good Idea - We can leave Scotland with all the debt.

Just spotted this.

Could this be the bargaining chip NI and Scotland use for leaving the UK?

[img] ?oh=3a8596716ced58ad6603ca57b963a633&oe=57C1C717[/img]

ninfan - Member
If England and Wales secede from the United Kingdom that would work.
Good Idea - We can leave Scotland with all the debt.

good luck with that.

Meanwhile an English friend sent me this

[url= http://www.southportvisiter.co.uk/news/southport-west-lancs/sefton-west-lancashire-sign-join-9259718 ]Poll for North of England to join Scotland[/url]

I thought it was a joke but 22,000 have voted and it's at 70%. Can't see it really happening though.

nobeer, CONSIDERING being the operative word.I passionately wanted to be in both, and argued my belief that similar consensus and was felt on most issues across the UK. I appear to have been wrong. My early feelings are that so many people have let the UK and Europe down badly, leaving me feeling a bit stupid. If the vote went the way it did but Scotlands vote was closer, then I may have said "our views on the EU were not too disimilar, however almost 2/3rds of Scots voting for the EU is quite overwhelming.

We are lucky in a way in Scotland to have a political outlet for this route. I feel sorry for the younger generation in England and Wales who also resoundingly voted for the EU, as they have largly grown up in a world with looser borders and greater movement of people, and do not jave to hanker after the 50's when Britain was so much better.

A couple of elderly gentlemen on the news yesterday summed it up. One was a teary eyed Southerner in his 80's with few years left just glad to get his country back before he dies. The other was from the North of England who was glad as the French and Germans hate us anyway.

ninfan - Member

If England and Wales secede from the United Kingdom that would work.

Good Idea - We can leave Scotland with all the debt.

That's kind of an old link, epi - kind of ironic now if you look at the referendum map as it's the North of England who dragged us out - I'm fairly sure if the border was set there you'd have voted Leave and South of that line might have even voted Remain.

quite a staggering turnaround from your previous position

athgray, you should be aware, you aren't going to get the 3/4 years you want to see how it all plays out, if this goes ahead the scottish question needs to be sorted before the leave date. Leaving the EU then re-entering isn't really an option.

I feel sorry for the younger generation in England and Wales who also resoundingly voted for the EU, as they have largly grown up in a world with looser borders and greater movement of people, and do not jave to hanker after the 50's when Britain was so much better.

I feel sorry for them also. I can only imagine it must be so alien and bewildering. However if there is something good that comes out of this perhaps it will be the realisation that opportunities to vote should not be wasted. I read earlier that if the under 25s turned out and voted in the same numbers as the over 60s then the overall result would have been remain.

Hard lesson, but I hope for their own futures it has been learnt.

Meanwhile an English friend sent me this

Poll for North of England to join Scotland

I thought it was a joke but 22,000 have voted and it's at 70%. Can't see it really happening though.

London declaring independence and/or join Scotland... Now that's would work. 🙂

seosamh.
Why not? It surely can't be beyond the wit of the EU to deal with Brexit and then look at Scotland re-entry shortly after.

I just can't see why we have to decide in an indyref2 before Brexit happens.

I was reading tonight that Angela Merkl is worried about a domino effect where other nations may look to leave.

For stability of scotland it's a bit crazy you're talking a 5-6 years of pissing about.

[quote=athgray ]I just can't see why we have to decide in an indyref2 before Brexit happens.

You don't - it's just that joseph is hoping you can continue our current membership so as to maintain more favourable terms. It's a bit tail wagging the dog though to expect everything to be put on hold so that can happen.

I was reading tonight that Angela Merkl is worried about a domino effect where other nations may look to leave.

I'm sure all European leaders are - it's just that Merkel has a different attitude towards dealing with it - one which I think is likely to work rather better than the bullying others seem to think is required.

aracer - Member
athgray » I just can't see why we have to decide in an indyref2 before Brexit happens.
You don't - it's just that joseph is hoping you can continue our current membership so as to maintain more favourable terms. It's a bit tail wagging the dog though to expect everything to be put on hold so that can happen.

merkel was the most chilled about it today tbh.

She says she wishes it to be dealt with cordially, but I did read she was worried about effects elsewhere. I can't remember where I read it.

aye, that's been mooted as a concern for a while. tbh I can only really see it happpening if the equivalents of ukip won an election. I doubt after the british example too many will be keen to call a referendum.. france is probably the biggest one to look out for there.

I have a close friend from Holland. I know there is a fair bit of dissatisfaction there.

[quote=athgray ]I have a close friend from Holland. I know there is a fair bit of dissatisfaction there.

Wilders is leading the polls there, and says he'll hold a referendum if he wins.

not saying there isn't, but it's a different thing to win a general election over a whole raft of issues than to win a single issue referendum. It's not a simple as uk out and the cards fall.

If it is going to collapse though, it'll happen sooner rather than later imo, so no need for a protracted waiting period.