You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Great stuff. Its a real bugbear of mine. Unfortunatly they included a 20min for delivery vehicles allowance which will make it hard to enforce but its a big leap in the right direct. Several roads near me you have to walk on the road because of the cars on the pavement blocking it
Once again Holyrood leads the way. this is what happens with PR when the greens get a decent voice
I thought it was illegal anyway. I once got a parking fine for parking half on the path.
In fact everyone did, 15 minutes after kick off of a rugby match at Headingly in Leeds....
Not outside London Ads which banned it along time back their is consideration for the rest of the England.
Dam, new I should have contested it!!
But you say London banned it before Scotland.....
I believe local councils have the right to ban it with a bylaw. I think there are places outside London that have done it (and now scotland too). Also others parking restrictions still apply so you can't park inside a double yellow for example even if you are completely off the road
https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q387.htm
Aah so it seems that local councils can make a traffic regulation order prohibiting it. Must be what they've done in Headingly.
Agree it should be banned everywhere though.
Edit: beaten to it.
Yep banned in London, have been fined near home before not realising, having moved from the Mids.
Ah yes sorry and local bylaws but yes before Scotland.
So theres roads round here that would end up blocked, or very difficult to pass on. Cant wait for that law to make it's way down 🙄
Surely then they are not roads where it is suitable to park !
So theres roads round here that would end up blocked, or car ownership might decrease, people might ride bikes more, air quality will improve, and I'll be able to actually ride the ****ing pavement/cycle path to work in the morning because it'll be a cyclepath not a ****ing car park. Cant wait for that law to make it’s way down
You missed the middle bit out.
Good. We parked on a side street at the top of our road, four wheels on the road. Everyone else was parked half on the pavement and no one with a pram (or in a wheelchair, but that's much less common) could get by.
When we went back to the car 3 days later a middle aged woman had a proper go at us for not parking on the pavement and making it difficult for cars to get by. I'm not sure what car she drove, possibly a Routemaster, but I'd rather it were difficult for a car than for someone disabled.
She said she was waiting for "the government to do something about the parking round here" (I think she meant the council making it a permit zone) but I bet this wasn't what she was thinking 😎
if a road is not wide enough to park on without going on the pavement its simply not wide enough to park on
This is one of the roads near me where the locals will be a tad miffed. They completely block the pavement with cars bth sides so you have to walk in the road.
https://goo.gl/maps/3K9ywBCvWyvbHNy5A
It will be up to local councils to make exceptions as they see fit, so not quite a total ban. Let's wait and see how it develops.
(plus there is the enforcement question)
Indeed scotroutes - but its a big step in the right direction
Step in the right direction. Failed to stop parking in cycle lanes though.
It will be up to local councils to make exceptions as they see fit, so not quite a total ban. Let’s wait and see how it develops.
Ah! I thought it was a total ban not what England already has.
Ah! I thought it was a total ban not what England already has.
I presume you meant London and not England and that's not a total ban either as there are exceptions.
Read the thread.
So its the same as before, but on an opt out basis rather than opt in?
On the flipside
It's allowed outside any school.
In fact, parking on the pavement and nearer the gates the better.
(It must be allowed, every parent at the school near me does it, doen't matter what the Highway code says).
@thisisnotaspoon So back in the real world of urban living, heres a quick example, there is a road in our town, long and straight, with a row of terraced houses down one side, you know the sort the ones that were built a 100 years ago before cars were really a thing. Everyone ever so slightly bumps up the pavement and that way we get two cars past at the same time on the remaining road space, still plenty of pavement and everyone's happy.
Oh and just to add it's one of the main arterial routes in and out. It would be ****ing gridlock and youd have no wing mirrors left if you parked fully on the road.
Then park somewhere else. I can't park outside my house because cars wouldn't get past at rush hour.
It does sound like the London system- a ban and the on certain streets where it's appropriate there are signs and markings on the pavement to show you can park with two wheels on the footway.
So back in the real world of urban living
The one where people live in densely populated areas where public transport is generally far more frequent and convenient than the non-urban living where the bus comes every other wednesday at 2pm (no return journey) but houses have driveways?
terraced houses down one side, you know the sort the ones that were built a 100 years ago before cars were really a thing.
Makes you think.........
100 years ago before cars were a thing, global warming wasnt a thing either. Two birds with one stone.
As Monrobiker says - if the road is not wide enough to park unless you go on the pavement its not wide enough to park full stop.
pavements are for people not cars
You might just have to walk a bit further. Pavement parking is selfish
(plus there is the enforcement question)
Absolutely this. In North Ayrshire its never been decriminalised meaning only the police can issue tickets. Unfortunately they are too busy dealing with real criminals so yellow lines and the like are purely decorative.
Also, never mind parking on the pavement, what about the driving?
I'll be sure to tell the folk that live there. If only the parking and roads and shit public transport was as perfect as you think it should be.
The force of the loons is strong in this thread.
Why do you lot always want to ban everything? Worse than that, you want to ban everything and make some really self righteous justifications for banning it.
Personally, I think there are bigger issues than a few cars parking on pavements.
JP
Personally, I think there are bigger issues than a few cars parking on pavements.
Noooo that can’t possibly be true. 🙄
I just knew the entitled car drivers on here would be moaning
round by me you often have to walk on the road as the pavements are covered in cars. Why do you entitled car drivers think yo have the right to park wherever you want even if it obstructs others. Prams, wheeelchairs can't get down the pavements, little old ladies having to walk in the road. Get real and stop being so selfish.
Personally, I think there are bigger issues than a few cars parking on pavements.
JP
Like global warming, isolation and loneliness in society, air quality so bad its a health crisis, the obesity epidemic, war in the middle east and shrinking cream eggs?
Id say 5/6 being solved by reduced car use is pretty good reason to incentivise it.
wrightyson - google streetview link to the road in question? Lets see how far away safe unselfish parking is
I just knew the entitled car drivers on here would be moaning
Oh do bore off. Theres nothing entitled about the point I raised, I don't even live on that ****ing street. I park my van, (you know the one I use for work to build shit for people like yourself) on my drive along with our bangernomic audi. Nothing self entitled at all, our town is literally in the middle of rolling Derbyshire countryside and without a vehicle youd never get anywhere you needed to be.
They should just encourage people to walk over vehicles parked on the pavement/footway: then everyone’s a winner.
How it has taken this long is incredible. Let’s hope it is enforced everywhere and not just in trouble spots. That street you’ve shown Tj looks like a mild example.
you know the one I use for work to build shit for people like yourself
Oh, fair enough you should get special dispensation, you’re practically a surgeon 😂
The force of the loons is strong in this thread.
+100. There always has to be discretion regarding parking. I drive a 16 seater minibus picking up disabled kids and taking them to school. I drive an urban route on mostly busy, narrow residential roads during busy traffic times. Not pulling up on the pavement (but not blocking it completely) would result in absolute chaos. Local authorities know this, hence the exceptions, even if the narrow one dimensionally minded on here can't.
Always been concious of this fact and avoid parking on pavements (it's possible you might just have to walk further ) but even more ware now as a new pram user.around the industrial area where I used to work folk abandon their cars where ever possible to go offshore for three weeks. Often arriving late and not having time to find a suitable place. They then wonder why an artic has taking the side off their car when they get home 3 weeks later.
Some folk are just dicks when it comes to abandoning their shitboxs
Go like Tokyo.
Tax cars on their width (not penalising....just means you can have the latest audporscherovwr that's at least 27 times too big)
And in. Really densely populated areas - prove you have a dedicated parking space for it over night.
so wrightyson - a link to this street where you have to pavement park?
1835 highways act (section 72) I think, prohibits driving a carriage on the footway, unless to gain lawful access to premises or in an emergency.
Like most things, the law is there, it's just not enforced.
Local authorities can create traffic regulation orders to prohibit it, but that is only so that the enforcement can be carried out by a civil enforcement officer.
Selfish car drivers who park on the pavement are a menace in parts of Southampton, they don't just put the near side wheels just beyond the kerbstones, they are right over so pedestrians without trolleys/prams etc. cannot even get past!
Part of me thinks there should be a limit on how many vehicles you can park outside of your property drive per household, because let's be honest, most of people don't have to use a car to get around. They have become a cancer of convienience since around the mid 1980s, when it became increasingly common for both individuals of a couple to work at least part time.
Maybe the answer lies with re-painting roads with specific parking zones along one side of each road where practical, with breaks in the zones to act as passing points, banning pavement parking outright... But then we will need 24/7 traffic wardens to enforce the penalties.
It's another example of how poor the infrastructure planning is in this country has been over the decades, compared to the likes of Austria.
I want a cream egg now, well two if they've shrunk that much!!
^ take a moment to think about that, then imagine having to deal with that every time you want to nip to the shops or go anywhere.
imagine the stress and annoyance that causes, and having to put yourself in danger 20 times a day just to do something as simple as go to town, or see a friend. Just try and think* about it for a few minutes and see the world from another POV.
Pavements are for people. If the road isn’t passable without parking on the pavement then the road isn’t suitable for parking full stop. Doesn’t matter if it’s terraced houses (I live in one) or a busy arterial route or whatever, if you can’t park safely in the road then you can’t park there.
* better than that, if you've never done it I can heartily recommend borrowing a wheelchair and go out for an hour or two with a friend who uses one and experience the challenges first hand. It is enlightening, kerbs, potholes, 'gentle' slopes, road crossings are all invisible obstacles to most of us, there's no need to go putting more in the way.
I agree with this law. It will cause some headache for some folk - a bit like when smoking in public places was banned, or drink driving. But pavement parking is antisocial.
We have cars near my home that park blocking pavement and cycle path, on the main school access route.
A side benefit is the drip, drip, drip of cost and hassle of car ownership, slowly making people reconsider do that actually need a car.
I'm sat in my father's flat in NW England today looking over a housing estate littered with cars, most of which seem to have not moved all week. Yes, half the cars are driven off to work, but half seem to just sit unmoving.
Too many folk have too many cars, works vans, etc. And it's not just in 100 year old street, check out new estates, no ****er uses their drives, cars abandoned everywhere, and no bloody pavements anyway! 🙂
New build estates come with 1 maybe 2 spots if you spend big bucks alot include the too small to actually house a car bigger than a mini garage as a parking space They also stick the house right at the front of the plot so you have no choice but to only have 1/2 spots. So you get the illusion of. A large garden out the back so you can extend the house that they have built you that is actually too small for the number of bedrooms it has....some I looked at had living rooms to small to have seats to seat everyone had each bedroom had a person in it....
Then they make the estate on a fancy curve so your never looking directly at a neighbour (under the pretence of reducing speed) so people park on the pavement as the curves make the road have pinch points for courier drivers who want to batter round at a million miles an hour and mega blind spots invariably making the estate incredibly unsafe for children.
It's somewhat ironic that many of the things that are done under the pretence of safety by the planners are the very things that make alot of new builds dangerous once you introduce people.
Or another example. Here's planning for new office but you can only have car parking for 50% of the occupancy (westhill arnhall estate) ......but it's served by zero public transport. In the good times The offices used to put on their own Busses.but not now so all you get is cars abandoned all over the place on any bit of scrap ground , the pavement ,the double yellows . No one cares.
1835 highways act (section 72) I think, prohibits driving a carriage on the footway, unless to gain lawful access to premises or in an emergency.
precisely - the act of driving up on to the pavement or off again is inherently legal - it is just that they need to see who the driver is at the time.
If any person shall wilfully ride upon any footpath or causeway by the side of any road made or set apart for the use or accommodation of foot passengers; or shall wilfully lead or drive any horse, ass, sheep, mule, swine, or cattle or carriage of any description, or any truck or sledge, upon any such footpath or causeway; or shall tether any horse, ass, mule, swine, or cattle, on any highway, so as to suffer or permit the tethered animal to be thereon;. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . F2; every person so offending in any of the cases aforesaid shall for each and every such offence forfeit and pay any sum not exceeding [F3level 2 on the standard scale], over and above the damages occasioned thereby.
Also
f not specifically prohibited, parking a vehicle on the pavement could lead to an offence of obstruction being committed – this could result in a fixed penalty notice being issued to offending vehicle/s. This is because parking on the pavement can obstruct pedestrians and wheelchair users, forcing them to use the road to pass a parked vehicle/s.
and
It should also be noted that unless you are accessing your property via a lowered kerb driveway, it is an offence to drive on the pavement even for a short distance.
from https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q387.htm
There should be a minimum clearance for the pavement stipulated - you cannot park on the pavement uness there is, say, 1.5m of passage left on the pavement. Make it clear that a car is causing an obstruction.
If there room isn't then tough, go find somewhere else to park.
Cars have been getting ever bigger and wider over the years, why should the pedestrian, pushchair user, diasabled person in a wheelchair, or blind/partially sighted person suffer ?
Cyclists already suffer from these bigger cars because of less space on the road.
As a left field to this thread...
how about changing the parking laws, so that if any vehicle is illegally parked (what ever that means) and is involved in an accident, it is the fault of the illegally parked car, no question...
so i have a scratch on my bumper that is 300 quid to fix. Oh look, an illegally parked vehicle... bump... your fault mate, your parked illegally, please have your insurance fix my car...
would that make things better or worse?
That would lead to so much scamming it would be ludacris.
1.5m of passage left on the pavement.
Hmmm - given the average '1.5m' gap that is left by a driver passing me on my bike, that isn't going to make it any easier to get along the pavement with a pram/wheelchair/small child/guide dog/white cane etc.
This used to bother me a little bit until we had a baby. We live in a fairly busy area, with lots nearby so 9 times out of 10 we'll walk with the littlun to wherever we're going, usually in a pram. Generally we try and walk rather than driving wherever possible.
All it takes is on inconsiderate ****er parking across the pavement and I have to bounce down the kerb into the road, often with little visibility because of the selfish turd that's blocked the pavement and wheel our 8 month old down what could be a busy road, sometimes getting honked at by more entitled ****ers in cars.
So while I accept that there probably needs to be exceptions, if you think that this is OK then frankly **** you. I can only imagine how much worse it must be if you're in a wheelchair.
I've been known to have stand-up rows with the worst offenders, or to push the baby buggy through regardless.
However I do recognise it's a necessity of life in some areas - and the fact that most people in my area do it reasonably and without causing an obstruction highlights the fact that it's just a few thoughtless knobs causing issues.
Yeah I could take the moral high ground as I can get three vehicles on our drive and live in a fairly wide street - but plenty (many on lower incomes) live in narrow roads with no off-street parking and nowhere else "round the corner" to park their vehicles.
That would lead to so much scamming it would be ludacris.
What's he got to do with it?
However I do recognise it’s a necessity of life in some areas – and the fact that most people in my area do it reasonably and without causing an obstruction highlights the fact that it’s just a few thoughtless knobs causing issues.
+1
It's possible to agree with the concept and the new law but still recognise that there are practical difficulties in implementing it. If there really is nowhere else to park in day one of its introduction, what are folk supposed to do? My bet is that many will end up parking in other folks streets, so we will see many stretts becoming busier,sime that are currently OK will suddenly become single lane. And we can't expect everyone caught out by this to sell their car immediately, especially if there really is no alternative transport for them to get to work etc.
Of course, if would be great to see all of these enablers on day one too - better bus services, enhanced cycle infrastructure, wider streets, more off-street parking.
chicken & egg - gotta start somewhere
chicken & egg – gotta start somewhere
Yeah, I know. I still think that some folk on this thread are dismissing the reality of the situation due to their zeal/lack of empathy.
Folk occasionally post on our town FB group "shaming" some of the more egregious pavement parkers. Like the builders van parked 4 wheels on the pavement (road has double yellows and is fairly busy), blocking it completely.
I would say the comments tend to be unanimous that the person is a knob, just split 50/50 between the driver and the person posting the photo. A decent chunk of the population think it’s the considerate thing to do, because the traffic can flow etc and the road is busier than the pavement.
It all really goes back to the idea that car journeys are important and essential, and drivers are entitled to undertake those essential journeys because they pay for them.
The old lady walking down the pavement with her zimmer to check in on her house bound friend is worthless.
A child riding there bike to school is a worthless journey.
A family walking to park is worthless.
Children playing on the pavement is worthless.
All must give way to the car.
Changing the laws on pavement parking is just a small step to changing the mindset of society.
Empathy for the car drivers or for those forced into the road because of cars on the pavement?
If the alternative is them blocking the pavement then no I have no empathy.
A moped takes up much less room.
I still think that some folk on this thread are dismissing the reality of the situation due to their zeal/lack of empathy.
But on the other hand people are dismissing the problems of too much traffic because it is hard to solve.
So are people against ALL wheels on pavements or just ****s who actually block the pavement?
Just for clarity, like?
I'm in favour of the former to stop the latter 😉
Basically I think we shouldn't allow cars to encroach on pedestrian space. You can go about trying to solve that in a number of ways, but saying we have to let cars park on the pavement to allow traffic to flow is (IMO) not fixing the right problem.
Empathy for the car drivers or for those forced into the road because of cars on the pavement?
It doesn't have to be either/or. The world really isn't as black and white as you make out.
but still recognise that there are practical difficulties in implementing it.
pretty easy to enforce - surely?
just a traffic warden on a push bike with a tape rule - if there is less than, say, 2m of path available then it's a ticket.
As long as there is a single lane with down the road then that is good enough.
If there isn't then the council need to take a look at alternate arrangements - like pavement only on one side of road and a good crossing setup so it is viable.
If you buy a house somewhere with parking problems, buy a narrower car...
So this is actually a way of stimulating the economy through folk having to sell/buy houses and cars and mopeds?
Alternatively forcing developers to put suitable carparking in.
Be it at the end of the block or other wise.
And people realising it's ok to walk and that their car doesn't need to be right outside their door.
Instead of putting up shoebox flats on any postage stamp of land without adaquate parking.
The current rule of trying to enforce car reduction by not providing parking isnt working.
As above if people start having to pay to park they will think twice about needing one. It certainly makes me take the bus to town over having to pay to park the car.
I've said it before and I've said it again. We would do well to look at Dutch and Belgian cities where the domestic car is banned entirely from the center . Thus bikes, wheel chairs and mopeds are allowed.
City dwellers park their cars on out of center car parks.
"Alternatively forcing developers to put suitable carparking in."
Ha! There is a huge new development going up on the edge of my small town of 1000+ homes which will increase its size by a third and there are no new schools, surgeries or NHS dentists or safe infrastructure being put in - what chance of there being enough parking when there isn't even a proper safe access road to the development?
Don't bank on builders/developers doing anything but lining their pockets
Oh I understand how it works Winston.
But if people are going to be penalised for parkingabandoning their cars at will then they will either seek alternative transport or housing.
We legislated green space into new build(then promptly figured out how to tax it with factoring) then the same could be applied to parking of private cars
As above if people start having to pay to park they will think twice about needing one.
I like that idea, make all on-road parking PAYG.
And before someone says it penalizes those without a driveway, council tax as a function of property value (which includes the value of off-street parking, garages etc) does the opposite. The council tax pays for (drum roll) the road and pavements that are used as a car park!
Residential parking is an issue. My housing estate is a mix of 50's houses and more modern ones of varying ages built up until 25 years ago.
Those in the 50's have space for 1 car, even worse in the cul-de-sacs, and the roads are only just wide enough for two cars to pass. Many of the newer houses have space for one or two cars. Doesn't take long to realise that a 4 bed house will possibly have 2-4 cars due to children living at home longer.
We do suffer from really bad pavement parking, totally blocking a pavement. It would be better if people did park fully on the road, but it would make negotiating the 'estate' far more difficult.
My neighbour recently crossed the road to deliberately shoulder barge my wife's wing mirror, as she'd parked with two wheels on the curb for 30 minutes (with room to walk past) - our road is a stupid 'curve' and it's not actually wide enough on the 'curve' for two vehicles to pass. Funny thing is, said neighbour parks 2 vans fully blocking the pavement every day (he's working on a neighbour's house so drives 50 feet from his drive). He's a complete knob, but's taken umbridge to the fact that we have an additional car now (my son) so one car is parked considerately on the road by our side garden (not outside anyone's house). He's got 2 large vans and 2 cars !
I fully agree with stopping pavement parking, but I can see some argy bargy on housing estates as they were never designed with the view to more than 1 or 2 cars being there.
My sister's new estate is shockingly bad. Large 4-5 bedroom houses (expensive) but each house is crammed on, just a walkway between houses, and only enough parking for 2 cars maximum on the drives. There are already cars parked all over the pavements as being larger houses,kids at home = more cars. It's a nightmare if you are visiting, never mind living there. Her neighbour's daughter permanently has her car parked on the pavement outside my sister's house (my sister isn't bothered). It's a mess.
Don’t bank on builders/developers doing anything but lining their pockets
Exactly why goverment and councils should be (and should have been) legislating as part of a proper transport/housing/society strategy.
It's also why we're in the situation above where everyone and his dog has their own car and consequently 4+ cars to a household and nowhere to put them, that's not going to be sustainable long term.
Yes, it'll be hard to retrospectively fix issues like this, but that's not an good reason not to start fixing it, and fix it for the future.
Personally, I think there are bigger issues than a few cars parking on pavements.
you realise it doesn't really take much effort to put through these laws and this is what the government does. not all issues are big ones.
I for one welcome it particularly as it will make dropping the kids off at school safer and let people actually use pavements.
I fully agree with stopping pavement parking, but I can see some argy bargy on housing estates as they were never designed with the view to more than 1 or 2 cars being there.
The truth is that reliance on cars in their current form has to be a historical blip. Partially because of global warming (going from one car households in the 70's to 3+ hasn't meant each car does 1/3 the miles each, they probably do more miles each than the family Ford Anglia of the 70's). And partially because even if they were all zero emissions there is neither the parking space nor the roads to drive them on.
I say that somewhat hypocritically as we have 3* cars, of which only one actually gets used for commuting. But then we did buy a house with parking space for about 5 on the driveway even before you start blocking them in or parking on the grass, or even the garage.
Precisely because we didn't want to be parking on the road/pavement.
*and a skip sized trailer, and a boat. And occasionally other stuff.
The point about all this is that it gives a lie to the argument that people (have to) use cars because they are more convenient/practical than other forms of transport. Well, not if there is nowhere to park them they're not, and having to park them on the pavement in reality means that there is nowhere for you to park them.
We have both permit and free spaces in my street.There is a chap down the road from me who is too tight to pay for one of the permit spaces so when the free spaces are taken he just reverses end on into any small gap he can find and parks his car with about a foot gap for pedestrians to squeeze through.
I mirror his inconsiderate behaviour every time I squeeze by with the dog, by making no effort to not scrape his paintwork as I contort myself to get past. A few scratches hadnt but him off yet thought because his car is a piece of crap.
Why do you lot always want to ban everything?
We don't want to ban everything. We just want to ban shit things that harm people.
In our street everyone parks on the pavement so that you can only walk in the road, especially if you have pushchair or wheelchair. So I have to push my kid in the road around bend which is now blind because of all the parked cars. **** you if you think that's right.
If there isn’t then the council need to take a look at alternate arrangements – like pavement only on one side of road and a good crossing setup so it is viable.
You get instances in London where the council have marked out parking bays on residential streets - half on the road, half on the pavement
In our street everyone parks on the pavement so that you can only walk in the road,
Share a pic, to illustrate (from a non-identifiable view obvs).
You get instances in London where the council have marked out parking bays on residential streets – half on the road, half on the pavement
that is because otherwise it is illegal to park on the pavement.
Apparently Lndon is getting traffic lights that will favor pedestrains and even cyclists over cars. Was in the standard last night, can't remember what they are called.
I am still awaiting the pic of a raod where its essential to park on the pavement. Like Wrightysons example or any other one.
A quick question for all those who say if the road isn’t wide enough park somewhere else.
Round our way most of the roads are not wide enough and there is no where else to park. There’d be thousands of people all trying to park on the on the one or two available roads.
There’s literally millions of houses built in narrow roads in cities all over the country.
Where do you suggest they park? This isn’t a case of the Joneses bring too lazy to park a couple of streets away and walking but a) the nearest suitable street also has residents so there very little parking available on them as it is, never mind an extra few hundred cars or b) in some cases the nearest wide road is a mile away and is double yellows.
Yes I agree that some people park like idiots and totally block the pavement but short of banning car ownership (yes I know some people are up for that) you simply can’t put a blanket ban on parking on pavements.