[Closed] School’s new behaviour strategy.

Why is she uncomfortable? Don’t her arms meet up?

Collective punishment to make the trouble makers unpopular not looked up to?

She’s uncomfortable because the whole school are looking at her and making cruel remarks. She’s never been any touble at school and all her teachers have commended her for this.

Collective punishment to make the trouble makers unpopular not looked up to?

Most likely but this isn't this SAS this is a Childs developing mind. Primary school kids have very self centred brains with little or no "grey area", I'd say this was issue.

Could be worse, I assume she's still getting pudding?

What are the trouble kids doing? If it’s not arm related I’m failing to see how making the whole class walk around like a general in a war movie is going to help.

Trouble earlier today......

Definitely still getting pudding.😀 The question I asked myself, why should she suffer and be forced to do something she doesn’t want to at school?

Collective punishment to make the trouble makers unpopular not looked up to?

I remember when I was at secondary school the whole class having to stay after school on several occasions to punish a few trouble makers so probably just using that logic. Although hands behind the back seems a bit lame, surely they could have thought of something better?

I'm sure the Stw answer is go in red faced with outrage and demand to see the head to find out if they've done a full risk assessment on children walking around with hands behind their back as it's a potential health & safety risk in the event of tripping.

It could be a child's face at risk!

I’d back the school up, there’s obviously a good reason for it. If she’s done nothing wrong then she can hold her head up high knowing she is ok.

The class has been suffering as a result of poor behaviour from a group of 6 children. General disruption in class and some horseplay when walking roound school.

It sounds to me as if her teacher has read the book called "When the Adults Change Everything Changes" by Paul Dix which encourages a positive consistent approach by adults to behaviour in schools. In it, he speaks about a school which tackled poor behaviour by introducing "Fantastic Walking" which sounds very much as you describe. However, the key point is that everyone in the school needs to be doing it (including the teachers), not just one class.

Why does she think everyone is looking at her. If everyone is doing it then she's just one of the crowd.
Sounds like she's getting a bit precious and simply doesn't like doing what she's told.
But then these days kids are the new Gods and must never be upset in any way.

I'd like to see the schools risk assessment of this, and the response when one of the pupils face plants with hands behind backs...

Walked out to parents with their hands behind their backs. A brave or stupid teacher to do that. I assume you'll do the obvious and raise the issue, asking what justifies imposing humiliating punishments on a whole class and why this punishment was chosen as it falls well outside the normal range of school disciplinary measures. I assume there are other parents hanging around, what do they think?

It sounds to me as if her teacher has read the book called “When the Adults Change Everything Changes” by Paul Dix

The next cupid stunt from SLT that mentions that book to me is going to get shoved up their arse.....

Anyway op it sounds a bit weird to me. I'd suggest a quiet word with the head if they are "on the gate" just say you want to back the school but are a bit concerned as your child doesn't like it and hasnt done anything wrong that you know of.

It’ll stop them pissing about with their phones.

All pedestrians should be made to walk like this.

Not all the kids are having to do it, just her class, year 6 and all the younger kids are laughing at them. If her behaviour was bad the I wouldn’t have any issue, I’m all for unconditional positive regard when dealing with poor behaviour gut don’t see anything positive in this.

I used to dislike collective punishment, and it never really improved things. I'd not be happy with that as a parent. I'd want to school instead to deal with the troublemakers.

The other parents have mixed views hence my post. At first I thought that when I was at school we were often made to suffer for the few gut after seeing how genuinely unhappy she was i began to question how this could affect her. As I’ve already said, her behaviour at school has always been good so in this, the 21st century should we be treating kids like it’s the 1970’s?

The question I asked myself, why should she suffer and be forced to do something she doesn’t want to at school?

Collective punishment isnt it.

Punish 1 (6) punish all. Isn’t this designed so that the “good kids” gang up on the trouble makers and that in turn makes them feel ostracised from the group?

Its a bit 60’s the punishment profile, but can’t see anything inherently “wrong” with it.

She’ll grow to ignore criticism from younger children and then apply that to elders too, good life skills right there.

All the best, sure you’ll question the school about it won’t you.

Aye sounds Paul Dix to me. We're being pivoted at the moment but it's a...., Well it's not being terribly successful.

Also, she is at primary school, that's young. When I experienced collective punishment, we must have been around 14.
If she is unhappy that tells you all you need to know.

It's not a punishment if it is "pivotal" then it's about getting everyone to act in a positive way but as a_a says it should be everyone.
And it should be one of many positive ways to change behaviour.

Bad implementation of a terrible idea.

Troublemakers are disruptors and just like terrorists, they thrive on seeing large groups of people altering behavior due to their actions. The kids messing around will take it as vindication that they can piss around with the status quo and get off scott free with the masses taking the 'blame'. If anything this strengthens a small minority and credits them with more power than they thought they had.

"Collective punishment isnt it."

Schools are weird places. Some teachers seem to think human rights are suspended at the door, and the most mad get promoted to head teacher.

Presumably next time one of the teachers gets a speeding ticket we should fine the whole staffroom.

Still bitter after forty years - yes - so don't tell me there's no lasting psychological damage!

So you have few potential allies. I'm against collective punishments as both an ex-teacher and a parent.

As a parent I only put my suit on once to contest a collective punishment. I'd noted a few lines from:

http://www.un.org/en/universal-declaration-human-rights/

I'd noted a few points of law. And everything went just fine. Punishment cancelled.

However, when junior was the source of the trouble the teachers got my backing.

Get your daughter to get a gang of the "good" kids together, give the "bad" kids a kicking and send the happy slapping videos to the teacher's BEBO account as proof that they've dealt with the issue the teachers can't. Teach will appreciate the issue being solved without them having to do anything difficult or awkward personally and will suspend punishment and reward the vigilantes with biscuits and glasses of milk.

I support the school.... we had different issues at my kids' secondary, but still behaviour and disruption type stuff - which is the biggest time thief from learning in classes.

The new (hardline) head brought in strict behavioural standards, uniform and so on at the start of this year (Sept 18) and inevitably there were a few arguments, parents shouting about individual's rights, detentions handed out for not having the right equipment and so on. And the head stuck with it, and the governors backed her up, as did the majority of the parents.

Behaviour is 100% better in basically one term, the moaners have dropped off, and the school is getting on with teaching rather than managing disruptors.

It's tough on those that are basically conforming and err occasionally, as opposed to those who persistently and deliberately offend. But the idea of collective behaviour is a fair one. Talk to your daughter about it, about why it's being done and tell her to get her and her friends to stand up to the 6 that have made this happen as well.

Thanks Edukator, that link is most useful. The more i think about it, i feel the school are wrong about this and will make an appointment to challenge it.

sarawak

Member
Why does she think everyone is looking at her. If everyone is doing it then she’s just one of the crowd.
Sounds like she’s getting a bit precious and simply doesn’t like doing what she’s told.
But then these days kids are the new Gods and must never be upset in any way.

Says he grown up getting wound up by the disciplining of someone else's kid by a teacher.

I’d like to see the schools risk assessment of this, and the response when one of the pupils face plants with hands behind backs…

Are they Ziptied ?? 😂

As a child of tachers the hardest thing teachers face nowadays is entitled parents telling them how to do their jobs. Its a tiny minor thing. Get over it. Back the teachers who are simply trying to do their job

Sounds less like Dix and more like Michaela to me. But, like Dix, that needs to be whole school to be effective. If it's just one class it does sound like collective punishment which as a teacher I really dislike. I'd question it but wouldn't necessarily recommend an all guns blazing approach initially.

To be fair tj, that was my initial thinking but on reflection I believe that the individuals disrupting lessons should be punished and those who behave given just respect.

Job description doesn't include dishing out gratuitous humiliating punishments on kids who've done no wrong, TJ. Schools should be a reflection of society in which people have rights and obligations. To command respect you have to be seen to be fair, if not you're using fear rather than respect. Then there's the idea that with a collective punishment you're forcing kids into solidarity with wrong doers, when you should really be encouraging kids to dissociate themselves from inappropriate behaviour. The teacher is creating a situation where he/she is in conflict with all the kids not just the ones misbehaving.

What happens if she refuses to comply? We had a teacher (albeit in high school) who tried to implement a no putting hands in pockets rule. God knows why, he must’ve suffered some pocket based trauma in earlier life. I told him if he was willing to by me trousers sans pockets I’d comply, otherwise tough chunks.

"As a child of tachers the hardest thing teachers face nowadays is entitled parents telling them how to do their jobs. Its a tiny minor thing. Get over it. Back the teachers who are simply trying to do their job"

Yeah! we should go back to hitting them on the hand with a ruler...never did me any harm

Absolute nonsense TJ (and sarawak). Its pretty easy to spot those in the thread that have no experience of either teaching or having children of their own.

Just like any walk of life, there are good, bad and indifferent teachers and there are good and indifferent teachers having a bad day. Most parents I know are extremely supportive of all but one of the above.

My mum was a head teacher but she would be the first to admit that teaching (and the world) has moved on a million miles from when she left in the 90's - its a totally different ball game now and so much of what worked then has no place today.

It is a bit weird when you think about it. That sort of shit would never fly in adult life - unless in prison perhaps.

Lazy teacher-ing IMO. More about controlling the kids than giving them any useful life lesson.

When I was at Wootton Bassett school in the 70s our cross country team came last at the county champs. Mr Tanner beasted the rest of the year in the rain in skins for the next 2 PE lessons. It was genuinely like that daft SAS programme. Wished we’d just had hands behind back.

Children are adaptable.

Back the teachers who are simply trying to do their job

Whilst I'd be the first to say this I do think collective punishment is wrong and this example is wrong. Its not a wade in shouting and screaming thing but a quiet word to express concern is justified imo.

I don't think anyone's calling for the return of corporal punishment for minor trangressions, as we had at my school when I was a kid. In fact, I'm not sure what's being requested is even a punishment. If the kids all are asked to walk in a certain way it just makes it easier to identify those that are causing trouble.

Again from my daughter's school.

The kids used to pile into rooms at the start of lessons, take ages to get to desks, lots of noise, and the teacher would take some time to get the class to order. At a guess it was costing 2 mins/lesson, often way more. 2 mins x 6 lessons per day, 5 days per week x 36 weeks per year - that's 36 hours of lost teaching. 6 whole days.

Now they have to line up outside the class in silence. Easy to spot who isn't. The class then files in in silence and takes their seats. Nothing happens until the teacher has introduced the lesson / task for the day.

My daughter moaned they were being treated like 'they were in prison' yet at the same time moaned about disruption in lessons. Parents complained about the lack of individuality. But one term later, the only ones still moaning are the ones regularly in trouble for still pissing about and their parents.

Look, I have mixed feelings too..... treating people as individuals is desirable but individuality is still possible while being well behaved, the trouble is that letting kids decide where the boundary is just doesn't work that well.

Lining up is a rule that applies to everyone. This holding hands behind back lark is a punishment applied to a minority some of whom have done nothing wrong. A quiet word as a_a suggests with some well thought out arguments.

If all kids are asked to walk in a certain way then you call the place a military acedemy.

I disagree - it's applied to the whole class. It's primary school, so broadly the class is a single unit, and while it might be better applied then to the whole school, it's not unreasonable - IMHO

Private Pile from full metal jacket is probably a bad example.

It's not military school, and he wasn't disruptive, he just struggled to keep up with his squad.

I'm not sure punishing a whole class for the poor behaviour of a few is setting a positive example.

That said, with deterioration of behaviour and a lack of support to deal with it, what can schools realistically do about it? They can't simply expel pupils for persistent bad behavior or whack them round the back of the head so they have to try and strike a balance.

I'm not saying that it's right, but what's the alterative?

Read this through, OP, before you take any notice of theotherjonv:

https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/secondary-school-detentions/

[deleted]

can't be arsed - I have my opinion whether it's reasonable, others have a different one.

All sounds a bit Victorian hard labour - no talking, walk around the yard clockwise, hands behind yet backs, don't look me in the eye. Makes me think of Oscar Wilde
Not a good choice by the teacher but perhaps the best you can do is have a word with your child and try and explain, in a way she can understand, that it isn't a refrlction on her, it is an attemot to address a particular problem, it may not be a great one but she is going to encounter that from time to time and come up with strategies for her to use to handle it.
You are probably not going to get very far with a teacher who thought it was a good idea in the first place....

Thank you everyone for your comments, as expected, some mixed opinions. I am going to contact the school today, explain the negative result this stategy has had on my daughter and hope they can consider my comments. We’ve explained to her that this is something she might just have to deal with but also that it was brave of her to speak out against something she felt was wrong. I will keep you all posted on any outcomes.

That's fair, if I may offer another opinion speak to the school but also be open minded and listen to their side as well.

And for your daughter, well done for speaking up but as I said to mine; sometimes life's a bit unfair and you need to accept that, and secondly pick your battles, is it really that important?

She has always had a very strong sense of fairness due to her brother having Aspergers and any measures used at home to control poor behaviour have always been fully discussed before they ere applied. I’m really hoping the school take on board my views and im guessing ther may be a few more parents to back me up. It is very useful to know the hives mind on this and especially Edukators link to Human Rights. As I’ve said, any developments will be posted up. Thanks again STW.

Copy this little girls example

https://www.thisisinsider.com/girl-teacher-war-crime-geneva-conventions-2017-5

you see already though you have my back up a bit. It's all about going to see the school and put YOUR point of view across and hope they take YOUR views on board, you don't seem to be very open minded about listening to what they might say on it.

And invoking the convention on human rights. Is this really a human rights issue?

In the grand scheme of things it if it's something that won't even register this time next month, I don't think it's worth the effort, and if you start quoting the human rights charter at them you'll be labelled for ever more.

She will learn more by politely discussing/challenging the teacher herself than a whinging parent coming in to do it for her. I suspect (if she is a well thought of pupil) that her telling the teacher that it makes her feel uncomfortable will have more impact than any upity parent trying to tell the teacher how to do their job.

If a direct discussion with the pupil and teacher doesn’t work then does the school have other mechanisms for empowering pupils? Eg I think most schools in Scotland have some UN rights of the child initiative going on.

I find it is a good way of filtering what really matters to my children - which issues are they prepared to go and argue about themselves and which do they expect me to do their bidding for them...

I think she would be happier if this new strategy was applied to the whole school. Her class have been singled out as the “naughty class” and it’s this which is grating her. The school wasn’t prepared to discuss this issue when I took her to school this morning and have been advised that the earliest i can speak to her teacher is next week!

To the OP - I haven't seen any mention of how this escalated. I think you need to find out what has already been done by the class teacher/s, SLT, head teacher to resolve the issue before you can make judgement. If the teacher suddenly decided on a whim after a bad day to have them march out like that then I can understand your frustration. If, however, they have tried many different approaches, have spoken to the parents of the children etc and still had no improvement in the overall class behaviour then warned the class that this would be the next step then I think it could be looked at as a perfectly reasonable escalation.

Having looked into the theory behind this strategy, I think the school have got it wrong. “Fantastic walking” should be about being proud and not used as punishment. If this had been applied to everyone at school including the staff then I wouldn’t have any issue and my daughter would probably have come home enthused about the change. She has recognised that as its just her class, she feels that she’s being punished for constant good behaviour and attitude to learning. I can see it from her point of view but happy for the school to explain the rationale behind this and how it benefits her.

The school wasn’t prepared to discuss this issue when I took her to school this morning and have been advised that the earliest i can speak to her teacher is next week

Email teacher and cc in the head. Be polite but say you are behind the school but think this needs looking at again.

The school wasn’t prepared to discuss this issue when I took her to school this morning and have been advised that the earliest i can speak to her teacher is next week!

That isn't a reasonable response time. Ask for school policy documents immediately, they are obliged to give you them:

https://www.gov.uk/school-discipline-exclusions

And if after reading the documents you feel that these disciplinary measures don't comply with the schools own procedures make a complaint using the procedure on the same site.

If in doubt lawyer up for free:

https://childlawadvice.org.uk/

just another viewpoint - who says it is a punishment? Is that your daughter's interpretation? Yours? Other parents?

How about if I was to say that her class has been selected to pilot the Proud Walking scheme and are an example to the rest of the school about how a well behaved class goes about their business? Would she be enthusiastic about it?

(not saying that's the case here but until you've heard both sides, are you drawing conclusions that aren't there?)

That isn’t a reasonable response time. Ask for school policy documents immediately, they are obliged to give you them

School seems perfectly reasonable, some bloke rocks up unannounced on a Wednesday morning asking to speak to a no doubt busy teacher about a non-urgent matter and is told he can have an appointment next week.

They are refusing to give their side until next week for an on-going punishment. Delaying a meeting is a bullying tactic, a week isn't a reasonable response time for an on-going disciplinary.

Madame (still a teacher) phones parents the same day when they request a meeting and anything that can can't be dealt with on the phone is done as soon as the head and parents are free at the same time, usually the end of the same school day or the following day.

The school is seeking conflict, it's up to you and your parent allies to decide how far you are prepared to take this.

No it still seems quite proportionate, OP can always bung in an email as suggested earlier.

I think a-a's suggestion of an e-mail is the next obvious step if that's the school's usual way of communicating, as a teacher I always prefered the phone as parents were usually warmer and more communicative in person than in text (with just text you get the lack of communication we suffer on this forum). Polite, firm and fair. The kind of approach and language you'd hope the school is using with your kids.

The school doesn't seem keen on talking though. They know they're doing wrong and are trying to fob you off.

I left my phone number and have just finished a call from her class teacher who has explained that this measure is to try to tackle the core element of the group who are constantly disrupting lessons after trying lots of other stratagies in class. My daughter has now been excused this strategy after i explaind how upset she was so hopefull life can continue as normal. I fully understand that controlling disruptive pupils is a big challenge for all teachers but couldn’t understand how this one was fair to the kids who behave. Thanks again for everyones input.

"She will learn more by politely discussing/challenging the teacher herself "

As the kid who did this at school, what she'll learn is that the teacher will be disinterested, ignore her argument and be patronising. Which in itself is a valuable life lesson. Kids need to learn that teachers are just people with all the defects that come with that.

Ironic really, by attempting to gain discipline the teacher loses all respect.

Result ! Congrats OP. I hope other parents of good kids do the same so that you daugher isn't disciminated against by either teachers or fellow pupils. It's really important that other parents do the same.

So when Year 6 leave class today they will march out in unison apart from the OP's daughter who will be running ahead like a cheerleader 🙂

In fact I'd expalin to your daughter that she risks bullying if she stops the stupid walk but other kids are forced to continue so she'd be better to keep doing it until other parents get their kids off the hook too. At least she'll know she doesn't have to.

The school should know they are creating potentially an even bigger problem. I can't decide if they're idiots or arseholes.

She should walk out like this....

failing to see how walking out with your hands behind your back is an issue. The police walk about like that.

^^^ Because it is being used as a punishment. The OPs daughter didn't misbehave so doesn't see why she should be punished.

.

Maybe instead of talking to the school to "challenge" the policy, why not ask them what's happening, listen to what they have to say with an open mind, and then decide whether it's something that you should "challenge". Even if you disagree with how it was handled, is it really a serious enough issue that you want to risk a conflict between parents and the teacher? It's possible that this wasn't the best way to deal with things, but getting mixed up in a battle between kids and teachers is more likely to make things worse than better IMO. If you start quoting rules and laws, then you're encouraging the teachers and school to enforce rules and laws rigidly without any commonsense, which generally just leads to a death spiral.

commonsense

If you had any of that you'd never become a headmaster.

you see already though you have my back up a bit. It’s all about going to see the school and put YOUR point of view across and hope they take YOUR views on board

As opposed to putting across someone else's point of view?

The interpretation is it's being used as a punishment. If it is that somebody has badly interpreted "fantastic walking" then that's a different issue. There is a big push for the "pivotal" approach which is something schools are looking at if you don't know what it is or haven't heard of it that's fine I guess there's plenty of things in your profession I don't understand but just because you've been to school and might have kids at school in no way makes you and expert. In the same way I won't tell an IT bod how to set up something on an internal system just because I own a laptop.

Whether pivotal is just another fad is a different discussion.

Rather than following another ridiculous fad UK teaching would do better to recruit better teachers, train them better, drop the militaristic approach and perhaps take inspiration from systems that don't fail their children.

https://www.theguardian.com/teacher-network/2017/aug/09/worlds-best-school-system-trust-teachers-education-finland

Collective punishment to make the trouble makers unpopular not looked up to?

Yep, we've been seeing this with our eldest, the whole class gets punnishments due to the actions of a couple of kids, apparently the other week PE was called off for the whole class because a couple were being little shits, break-times have also been missed (I'm not sure that's supposed to happen). My wife went in and kicked off as she couldn't even see how the half punnishments fit the offence and it's just making our daughter resent the teacer/school as much as the disruptive kids...

The problem I have with it is that it could well start putting her off school if it gets much worse. Not a week goes by without us being told (admittedly 2nd hand) about yet another bit of collective punishment imposed because of a small handful of kids or even topics not completely covered/lessons half abandoned due to poor behaviour, which I find very concerning...

She's one of the higher attaining kids in the class, we get glowing reports and gushing parents evenings, she's a nerd at heart (this morning she was explaining multiplication of fractions to me rather than eating her breakfast), but she takes knockbacks and dissapproval hard, and if she sees herself as enduring punishment for other's actions despite doing her best and behaving I can see her interest in doing well at school slipping as the rewards/encouragement just don't materialise.

We've spoken to her teacher and while I understand the issues, you've got one teacher and a couple of TA's wrangling 30 odd kids, so the time and resources it takes to deal one on one, with a couple of disruptive kids isn't really there, it doesn't really change the fact that my daughter's education and her motivation ends up suffering as a result...

The thing is if the goal is to persuade the group to ostricise/bully an already troubled kid into complying it sort of cuts directly against all the other school policies, it probably isn't addressing the real root cause of most behaviour issues and it's potentially teaching my daughter and her peers to start forming cliques and exclude others, which I don't want either...