You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
As the new term starts , the cost of school uniforms is a huge price for a lot of lower waged and unwaged families.
So why is there a need for a uniform or branding, its not Tesco or B and M, etc or some military force that requires you to self brand as a clone of that organisation.
Also why dont the teachers and auxiliary staff wear a school branded uniform like most shop workers are forced to wear. Theyre all part of that establishment.
Surely the kids and their families should be allowed to decide what they want to wear, as part of the growing up and socialization of their class.
"Alex Maina Kariuki is a school principal in Kenya with a difference. He insists on wearing the same school uniform as his students".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-africa-44569457/why-this-kenyan-teacher-wears-a-school-uniform
Surely the kids and their families should be allowed to decide what they want to wear, as part of the growing up and socialization of their class.
Because if that happens then school clothing becomes the arms race of labels and fashion putting more pressure on low income families.
Not just that it gives the kids a sense of belonging rather than just attending.
You don’t “have” to wear the regulation school uniform, I went to 7 different primary schools and 4 different high schools and perhaps half of them stipulated you need to wear a uniform but I never bothered/my parents refused to pay for one.
So why is there a need for a uniform
Standards. Remember them?
Standards. Remember them?
when i was in school most of the teachers looked like theyd raided the charity clothing bank at at he local supermarket car park.
Their standard of teaching was high, we learnt stuff, and didnt worry to much about uniforms.
Y"ou don’t “have” to wear the regulation school uniform, I went to 7 different primary schools and 4 different high schools and perhaps half of them stipulated you need to wear a uniform but I never bothered/my parents refused to pay for one."
Was that 30 years ago. Try that today in most schools these days you'll be sent home by the end of the week.
Because if that happens then school clothing becomes the arms race of labels and fashion putting more pressure on low income families.
Well that’s the theory. Mrs SR certainly subscribes to it even though we both grew up in Canada. I don’t buy it though... I think it stifles individual expression, and takes away the benefits of many children’s natural comforts (such as a favourite t-short, or whatever).
A primary head my kids once had banned all football strip from the school lest it cause conflict (such as a bunch of ManU kids picking on a kid who had an Aston shirt, or whatever). But I thought, why the hell couldnt they just teach the kids to respect each other instead?
I HATE school uniforms.
"why the hell couldnt they just teach the kids to respect each other instead?"
To be fair he probably asked why the parents could not teach this life skill prior to banning football strips.
Tbh they aren't that expensive either, just about every supermarket does stuff.
we learnt stuff, and didnt worry to much about uniforms.
I think it stifles individual expression, and takes away the benefits of many children’s natural comforts (such as a favourite t-short, or whatever).
So they can spend so long working out what to wear they don't get on with the important stuff?
Uniform should be a bit like a kit list. Just a list of items and specifications for each item. No school branding should be needed except perhaps a tie, allowing parents to buy to suit their budget. What's wrong with just specifying black trousers/skirt, white shirt/blouse, navy blue polo shirt, black shoes etc, no visible branding or slogans permitted.
My kids school is non uniform. You have no idea of the cost!
Tbh they aren’t that expensive either, just about every supermarket does stuff.
They don’t sell them with the school logo embroidered onto them though that many schools are enforcing. I think uniform is a great idea but the instantance of using one supplier less so.
Logo's on the trousers?? Isn't it just a jumper or some thing with a logo these days?
school clothing becomes the arms race of labels and fashion putting more pressure on low income families.
Very much this. The uniform does not need to consist of much just a plain shirt and trousers.
My school had three options for shirt colour, two different types of jumper and black trousers and black shoes. There was a school Jersey and red socks for sports. The only restriction was no brand logos. Most of the people sold on their school logoed stuff once they grew out of it.
it is a great leveller and if you are from the low income it reduces pressure significantly and allows more focus on learning. Sure there will be people with better watches, phones etc. but it’s school not a fashion show
oh and it stops kids beating other kids and taking their stuff or destroying expensive items because they don’t like them
I’d love to say more but it seems I’ve won an iPhone X again.
In short some school governors and heads are egotistical control freaks who like to impose rules they don’t have to follow themselves and/or misunderstand the difference between causation and correlation when reading stats on how well Eton students who dress like Edwardians do.
If kids were to wear their own clothes it would be tough on those kids that don't have many clothes, kids would soon pickup that they were wearing the same outfit on multiple occasions each week. At least school uniform removes this problem. Also when the local kids are up to no good go to/from school it makes it easier to report to the correct school.
Was that 30 years ago
Pretty much 👍, I guess 1977 to 1989, two primary schools and 3 of the high schools said you had to wear a uniform, my home town kirkcudbright academy (utter shit school unless your parents were farmers or in the rotary club) said you had to wear a blazer (very expensive) tie, shirt,trousers, shoes and specific PE kit and also said you had to attend assembly and religious bullshit before class started but needless to say i used to turn up at 9.15 when assembly ended for 1st class every morning in my jeans/t shirt
Sticking it to the man since 1977 😀
Logo’s on the trousers?? Isn’t it just a jumper or some thing with a logo these days?
No, these days it’s trousers too.
I need to buy clothes for my kids to wear. During the week these are uniform. There uniform is no more expensive than any other clothes. We dont argue in the morning about what they are wearing. They dont get bullied over their clothes. They have a sense of belonging and are proud of their school.
Win win win
It’s a damn good question OP.
But I think this is primarily the answer..
Because if that happens then school clothing becomes the arms race of labels and fashion putting more pressure on low income families.
Which would clearly identify the parents parents of the child on some social pegging ladder, and the child would be susceptible to ostracise/ridicule and elements of bullying... if you are looking at it from a low income basis.
Uniforms, by nature are uniform. That’s the point. To make everyone.. uniform. No distinct social boundaries, no overt social identification.
Though I have to say where I was brought up in school the uniform was woolly Bermudian shorts, white short sleeve shirt and a woolly blazer, knee high green socks and brogues..
Yeah, and it was 35C 🤣👊
Uniforms, by nature are uniform. That’s the point. To make everyone.. uniform. No distinct social boundaries, no overt social identification.
Having gone onto work in a place with a full change so everybody wore the same thing on plant you realised how important it was to listen to everyone and not be taken in by what they are wearing or what status they are exhibiting.
Level the playing field for kids too.
My sons School insists that the 6th students form wear business suits too.
I don’t buy the “pressure on low income families” angle.
Granted our uniform is as rene describes, just a kit list: black trousers, polo shirt, grey pinafore and gingham summer dress. No school logos or anything.
All available from Aldi and ASDA, but also available free from parents of older kids, or for pennies at local jumble sales and end of year uniform sale in the school yard.
Definitely think that is a preferable situation to trying to dress the kids in the latest ever changing fashion every day.
I'm in favour, but the uniform rules should not force parents to buy from a particular supplier, as that seems to be a bit of a con.
Colours should be charcoal grey or navy. White for shirts /blouses.
Black shoes.
No obvious logos anywhere..
We all wear uniforms throughout our lives, it's part of what defines our "belonging" to a group within society. May as well start early.
My sons School insists that the 6th students form wear business suits too.
I think even Asda stock that now!! What would you be dressing them in if they had the choice
I don’t buy the “pressure on low income families” angle.
Then an you were never the kid with the wrong logo on their t-shirt or the one who had the global hypercolour just after the trend...
i neither had logos or was allowed a global hyper colour shirt (much to my sorrow) but saw the impact on others who tried... one Miss step and then life can be hell...
as someone later told me kids are dicks. You can be the bully or the bullied at school. Trying to fly under the radar to avoid attention is being the bullied. To a degree I would agree with the sentiment
Older lad is starting high school next month , so we have had to purchase full uniform with blazer etc, well over a ton for the whole caboodle. You can only purchase it from one supplier too.
Little un causes some consternation as he does not wear the official primary school jumper as they are too scratchy for him , but pointing out it's due to his autism soon shuts them up.
Then an you were never the kid with the wrong logo on their t-shirt or the one who had the global hypercolour just after the trend…
I believe you’ve misunderstood him he means school uniforms.
how many folk commenting have School aged kids?
People span the income spectrum in Canada, too. How come the idea of a clothing-based arms race doesn’t seem to have crossed anybody’s mind there, if not having uniforms is such a problem?
EDIT: I have a number of kids in the school system here.
I believe you’ve misunderstood him he means school uniforms.
The comment was related to the fact that having a uniform reduces the burden somewhat or does not highlight the low income families.
the point I was making (or trying to) was that if you do not have a uniform there is a massive downside if you are not up with the trend. This is seen at after school events, mufti days etc. and can be a big barrier.
If if you look at the cost of a uniform how does it compare to normal clothes? Kids stuff is hellish expensive or at least it seems to be for so little material
People span the income spectrum in Canada, too. How come the idea of a clothing-based arms race doesn’t seem to have crossed anybody’s mind there, if not having uniforms is such a problem?
People in the UK are obsessed with class/status/wealth? We have constructed a class system to seeming keep people in their place and nobody can explain the rules other than by a sense of social awkwardness. It does seem we hate to see anyone doing better than us😋.
We are a strange people
Don't they do the iron-on or stitch-on badges any more then? Corporate scum!!
Or to illustrate it another way... how many people on here would go to a trail Center on a Halfords special...
we are all snobs in one way or another...
We moved to Canada and would prefer our kids had uniforms, he's had hoods ripped off brand new hoodies and it's a constant fashion show, also most mornings he has the washer and drier going for one item of clothing (normally his newest one).
Not just that it gives the kids a sense of belonging rather than just attending.
Belonging...? To a school...? Who really gives a shit about belonging to a school...? I sure as hell didn’t. Because what we need in life is more tribalism...
Tbh they aren’t that expensive either, just about every supermarket does stuff
Three children. Non-selective secondary schools. All games kits, two sons blazers, daughters skirts and jumpers. All from ‘specialist*’ shops. Costs a ****ing fortune.
Because if that happens then school clothing becomes the arms race of labels and fashion putting more pressure on low income families.
This is the only decent reason IMHO. Hopefully, it works.
THe only uniform at my school was the games kit. That and a Maiden T shirt.
School uniform saves me a a fortune. I'd much rather the black hole of school jumpers was eating 2.99 red v necks from sainsburys rather than a £20 branded tops. One week one of my kids managed to lose 3. They are probably in the same other where the water bottles dissappear too.
I agree, I grew up in poverty and my parents could never afford to keep up with the Joness but at least the school uniform kept me fitting in to some degree.
Similarly we could afford to dress our kids in expensive clothes but they absolutely trash them especially the boys (all primary). We have one logo jumper each for photos etc and the rest is plain from M&S or Sainsburys. My other half picks stuff up in the saLesuire for next to nothing. I reckon that the kids uniform cost a much less than their normal clothes. Which are a also a huge cost per wear as they barely get used before there grown out of.
As it seems my comment went over a few heads last night I can definitely vouch for uniform being far cheaper. Had two kids at primary in uniform, as said many times above, aldi asda etc, however mrsws used to try and get stuff from Sainsbury's even though we don't shop there as it lasted much better.
Move forward a few years with a year 12 and year 9 pupil come September in a non uniform school and I can whole heartedly say it's eye wateringly expensive! 90 quid trainers worn every day as opposed to just for best, Adidas tops, certain jeans etc. It's like a constant ****ing fashion show!
I am convinced that on non uniform days some students stay at home due to the anxiety of thinking they will not compete with the fashion show and be mocked. Big fan of keeping it simple, black blazer, trousers/skirt/white shirt, black smart shoes - all available cheap in any supermarket. With just £10 spent on a school badge and tie.
Everyone should be entitled to wear what they like and have freedom to express themselves and wear simply what they have at home fails because what kids 99% want to do (IMO) is simply fit in and be popular. Uniform simply levels the playing field a bit.
Low income families get support for uniform at all schools.
When you put down your list of 5 schools in order of preference, that's called choice.
As the new term starts , the cost of school uniforms is a huge price for a lot of lower waged and unwaged families.
If the school allows you to buy from Asda, Tesco etc,. then I would say the uniform costs less than the normal clothes they would need to wear in it's place. Lower waged and unwaged should be able to get uniform vouchers if buying from an expensive and mandatory uniform outfitters is required by school.
<i>Because if that happens then school clothing becomes the arms race of labels and fashion putting more pressure on low income families</i>.
Funnily enough this is response I get when I ask a lot of my students here in Germany, where it is practically the only area of life that people don’t wear a uniform, whether they think a school uniform is a good idea. They all think it would be a great idea in Germany..
Belonging…? To a school…? Who really gives a "shit about belonging to a school…? "
This is your opinion . Meanwhile the opinion I posted was the overwhelming one at the wife's previous school.
Another local school went uniform free as an experiment a few years ago it's back to uniforms as of this term .
This is your opinion . Meanwhile the opinion I posted was the overwhelming one at the wife’s previous school.
Another local school went uniform free as an experiment a few years ago it’s back to uniforms as of this term .
Wearing a uniform as a leveller I totally get and am all for and as I said, I hope it works Bit let’s face it, how many people do you know who really look back and say “I’m so glad I felt a sense of belonging at secondary school”? You may have had a great group of friends or some inspirational teachers - and I know many people who look back with pleasure to that, including myself. I understand your wife is a teacher, but knowing more a few teenagers in a less formal context, belonging to the school isn’t a priority for them - even if education is.
if the whole belonging thing is important, let’s get the teachers in a uniform too.
When you put down your list of 5 schools in order of preference, that’s called choice.
No, choosing a school based on uniform would be idiotic.There are also no schools within our catchment without very stringent uniform requirements.
I don’t actually have a problem with uniforms. I have a problem with schools specifying precise shops to buy any item of uniform from them - creating a bit of an expensive monopoly. Whether I can afford it or not, I surprisingly object to paying through the nose for average quality clothing.
Its also interesting that most schools - in our city at least, seem to have uniforms that are more formal than modern business attire and certainly more formal than teachers clothing...
My old school did, and still does, have a uniform but it's designed to be affordable.
Plain trousers, black shoes, white shirt and black socks can all be from wherever. The only bits that say what school it is are the jumpers, tie and the polo shirt for PE. These are sold direct from the school for not a big mark-up and any profits are used to either give uniform to underprivileged students for a discount or even free but if there is any surplus at the end of the year it is given to a charity. They also have a 'trade-in' scheme where any branded uniform can be returned to the school when the kid grows out of it and if it is in good condition they get a discount on the new item with the old clothing going to anyone who needs it.
Even when I had to obey those rules you still had the minefield of which shoes to wear. If you didn't have Kickers or DM's back then you were an outcast!
how many folk commenting have School aged kids?
Not me... the price of school uniforms put me off 😜
how many folk commenting have School aged kids?
proper lols are we going to make riding a bike compulsory to commenting in the bike threads too!!
In other news it is possible to listen to the arguments, points of views and facts before coming to an informed conclusion. You don't need to have skin in the game for that one.
I'd also wager a good number of the people posting have some kind of first hand experience of school life 😉
Mikewsmith nailed it on the third post for me - kids can’t stand out for lack of choice or quality.
We both work full time, and have two kids, so we buy five t shirts, five jumpers and five pairs of trousers each so we can lay them out on a Sunday and not have to think about it through the week.
Shoes and coats not included (neither are prescribed), the cost per child is about £100 per year. We’ll need to top up later in the year, but we could have bought half the amount of clothing if we had time to keep on top of it every mid week. We don’t always.
Some local authorities offer support to those that can’t afford it, and some schools use some of their pupil premium money to help those that can’t afford it.
I’m aware some schools may have much more expensive uniforms, but out of all of my friends, I haven’t come across any of them.
As a parent of two boys, I’d take uniform over free choice every time, without hesitation.
proper lols are we going to make riding a bike compulsory to commenting in the bike threads too!!
I see a certain irony in this thread; having people-watched at various cycle centres I'd say MTBers are well qualified to debate uniforms. Even without a compulsory uniform people often identify either consciously or sub-consciously with their own group by the way they dress.
In my experience of schools, the non-uniform 'uniform' created by fashion causes a lot more issues of cost and status than the official one.
School I work in has no uniform policy and beyond offensive messages on t shits etc and indecency(and that is a contentious one) there is no dress code. As a teacher who worked in uniformed schools for 10 years beforehand it's blooming brilliant - no tedious telling kids to tuck in shirts and do up top buttons. I remember as a youngish form tutor in a very ordinary state school being instructed I had to line the (16yr old) girls in the form up and inspect their skirts, informing the head of year of any where I could see a bit of thigh! Like that was not at all pervy!
But, and its a big but, this is a very high fee paying school - like Eton level fees. Whilst to my middle aged eyes they all look equally disheveled I understand there is some oneupmanship and bitchiness about brands and clothes. It's not universal however and limited to the sort of kids you'd best avoid anyway.
So I can see uniforms make sense. But any school that is persevering with blazers and specific shades of gray for the trouser need to have a word with themselves. Also with transgender issues currently very pressing for most schools, new gender neutral policies for uniforms need to be written pdq by those that don't have them yet.
Final though - as a kid at school yourself did school uniform really disguise the fellow pupils from a difficult background from you? They still stood out sadly - a bit smelly, unironed shirt that was grubby as hell by the end of the week and trousers wafting around above their ankles.
Dad of two lads of primary school age, who’s schools uniform policy is of the more progressive ‘Sainsbury’s sourceable’ type, and I agree with the above posters who assert that it’s the best value and least stressful all round way to clothe the kids at school. Black or grey trousers, navy jumper, light blue polo. Logo’d Versions available but not required. Simple, smart, effective.
Bit let’s face it, how many people do you know who really look back and say “I’m so glad I felt a sense of belonging at secondary school
Well, I did. I’m still proud of my school, then and now, two decades later and notwithstanding living hundreds of miles away
Edit: two primary age kids, btw, wholeheartedly in support of (Asda & M&S* purchased) uniform.
*Asda skirts aren’t “spinny” enough. Important when you’re six.
<p><p>
</p><p></p><p>That's exectly as it is at my wee one's school, only one piece of "uniform" has to be worn, she has a tie, blazer and pinafore and the rest is all Sainsburys tat. Lower income families get a uniform grant and there is a donation scheme for old uniforms.</p></p>Uniform should be a bit like a kit list. Just a list of items and specifications for each item. No school branding should be needed except perhaps a tie, allowing parents to buy to suit their budget. What’s wrong with just specifying black trousers/skirt, white shirt/blouse, navy blue polo shirt, black shoes etc, no visible branding or slogans permitted.
Strangely nobody has commented on the need for teachers to wear a corporate uniform of the school.
As an ex school boy i sometimes used to wear a blazer and jumper and shirt, the tie soon got binned as did the red hat, and never worn a tie or a blazer since.
As a schoolboy we knew the poorer kids we lived near them, we understood their problems, about lack of cash flow, we didnt mock them or be little them most of us where in the same situation, we went to school had a laugh, played around and learnt stuff.
Strangely nobody has commented on the need for teachers to wear a corporate uniform of the school.
Nope several people have been bleeting on about it. Staff dress code wear appropriate clothes for you job. That should cover it.
My daughter's secondary school requires that pupils wear specific trousers or skirts which have a school badge on them. These are not as cheap as Asda/Sainsburys but the reasoning behind them is that is stops the trend of girls wearing miniscule skirts which barely cover their bottoms.
I think this is a good thing and makes girls less sexualised (and helps the pubescent, hormone raging lads be less distracted).
<p>
</p><p>They're hairy and they're smelly, </p><p>They can't afford a telly, </p><p>They're altogether manky,</p><p>The _________ family!</p><p></p><p>I remember that little gem well from primary school and that was one where most of the kids were from the council scheme. Glad your school was that nice.</p>As a schoolboy we knew the poorer kids we lived near them, we understood their problems, about lack of cash flow, we didnt mock them or be little them most of us where in the same situation, we went to school had a laugh, played around and learnt stuff.
Staff dress code wear appropriate clothes for you job.
This is sort of thing helps with attention:
https://m.imgur.com/t/op_is_a_virgin/13xIekl
I think it stifles individual expression
And I think it enables it. Expression through clothes is a very narrow concept, and for many people trying to decide what to wear is a chore, and a stressor. If you are going to enable expression through clothing then it works both ways. Those who want to out in the effort to look good will do so, but that will simply make those who don't, or can't, look worse. And they will be judged, and feel miserable because of it. It will create a heirarchy and school kids don't need another one of those.
Kids should express themselves through words, deeds and art, not through something as shallow as clothing. Kids will be less willing to express themselves when they are not confident, because they are being made to feel inferior.
Wonder how many contributors now go to work dressed as they where aged 11, shirt tie blazer or jacket and black shoes, then propogate the idea that the above somehow makes the school dress code all ok.
project
Member
Wonder how many contributors now go to work dressed as they where aged 11, shirt tie blazer or jacket and black shoes, then propogate the idea that the above somehow makes the school dress code all ok.
If I turned up for work like that they'd send me home to put some pants and trousers on...
Wonder how many contributors now go to work dressed as they where aged 11, shirt tie blazer or jacket and black shoes, then propogate the idea that the above somehow makes the school dress code all ok.
I wear quite a strict uniform for work. Nothing like a school uniform as that would be just daft.
I work in a school and have kids, so can see it from all sides. Enforcing uniform is a massive headache for staff, but it ensures students are appropriately dressed and, to some extent, reduces perceived inequality between students from different backgrounds. Uniform doesn't need to be expensive, and is often cheaper and harder wearing than 'normal' clothes.
Schools, unfortunately, are also in competition with each other - many parents want their child to go to a school with smart uniform, even blazers etc. Heads have a lot of things to consider, particularly when losing students to competing schools can have such a big impact on budgets.
Interestingly I have been talking to our staff recently about some form of staff uniform, rather than a dress code - without exception they have all been keen, which surprised me. We are looking at polo shirts with logos as a trial. On the flip side the argument often used is that students need to be in 'business dress'. My recent experience is that very few 'business people' wear ties these days, never mind jackets/suits. Also for those without kids please don't base comments on your experience 10, 20 or 30 years ago - schools are very different places now.
I have to wear a kind of uniform at work, as do most men. Smart trousers, shirt, smart shoes. You'll say there is choice in exactly what clothes you wear, but not a lot.
It's simple in my view.
Uniform should be strict in terms of colour /skirt length etc. But parents shouldn't have to be forced to buy from an official supplier. Dark grey trousers are dark grey trousers. Plain White shirts are white shirts..knee length skirts or calotts... Same.
It levels the playing field socially.
I'm not and have never been a fan of branded blazers etc, it all seems a bit twee to me.
I could cope with a tie if it was responsibly priced, say 3-5 quid.
I have to wear a kind of uniform at work, as do most men. Smart trousers, shirt, smart shoes. You’ll say there is choice in exactly what clothes you wear, but not a lot.
So a uniform clothing range then......
Enforcing uniform is a massive headache for staff
Indeed and thats why it is often so prescriptive. Give any room to manoeuvre and it rapidly becomes a nightmare.