[Closed] Scaffold tower safety, am I being a knob content

The scaffold needs to be inspected by someone competent at relevant intervals. Anything attached to that scaffold needs to be signed off in that inspection. I expect that this rule needs applied in this instance.

sounds wrong to me, but I'm not a scaffolder. if the "mobile" tower is fixed then maybe but if it's just plonked down on the existing scaffolding that would be a no from, and maybe worth a call to H&S if they go ahead with it

Yeah so it’s a mobile tower plonked on top of a proper (don’t know another word to describe it) scaffold. All the pasma website says is that a tower scaffold should be built off of a solid surface. Arguably scaffold boards are solid but they aren’t the ground are they?!
Been made to feel like I’m kicking up a fuss over nothing all day. There is probably 100k of scaffold on the job so one little adaption surely can’t cost much!
Will ring hse maybe tomorrow morning

I'd say you're not being a knob. Ask them for the risk assessment that shows it's safe to do so.

If the tower is tied in to the existing scaff and the building, then possibly OK for a quiet life, but as NBT - if its just a freestanding alloy tower plonked on the scaff planks - FRO... Wind will be an issue at that kind of height, you presumably are using tools (hand or power?) pushing against the building, so there's a bit of a levering moment on the top of the tower. What's the point load of the tower legs on the scaff planks like?

Using and moving
Make sure everyone involved is aware of, and follows, these simple rules:

Using
Never use a tower:

in strong winds;
as a support for ladders, trestles or other access equipment;
with broken or missing parts; or
with incompatible components.
From https://www.hse.gov.uk/construction/safetytopics/scaffold.htm

It may be acceptable, if it is secured to the existing scaffold, but not sure, I'd have to check but not currently able to.

But my concern is the told to get on with it when you have raised an issue. As an ex-maintenance manager I would not be telling anyone to get on with it if they weren't happy and I couldn't prove it was a safe method for working. At the end of the day it is your life that is at risk not theirs.

Also do your have a certificate for erecting a mobile scaffold tower? If not you are not allowed to do it.

The scaffold has a roof over it and is sheeted in so wind won’t be a problem. 2 blokes and tools plus copings might push towards the weight limit but I don’t think it would go over. Yeah I think tied to the building is an absolute minimum. It’s stupidly an hours work off the tower but it’s not like an accident couldn’t happen just because its only an hour!

I've got a ticket and I wouldn't build a tower on scaffolding. Pretty sure it's stated as level ground rather than surface.

I have in the past refused to drive a mewp as my ticket had long expired and I've only ever driven one twice.
It caused friction as my colleague who had the ticket was off sick. The client wanted me to drive it, the boss really wanted me to drive it.

The mewp on site was a bit old and jerky, the sparky clattered a storage tank with it.
If I'd driven it and I damaged something or much worse someone got hurt, the first question would be where's your ticket? Assuming I was still alive.

It's just not worth it.

My general rule is that if it feels wrong and you have to question it, it probably is wrong.

As for being told that you have to erect it, fo you have a PASMA cert? If not and it goes Pete Tong you'd be crucified.

Aslong as it's built properly and to the manufacturers instructions with out riggers I don't see an issue personally.

I don't see how you'd be at any more risk if you use it correctly (don't climb up the outside of it) than using it on the floor, as if the scaffold it's on is built correctly then you shouldn't be falling anywhere.

Aslong as it's built by someone with Pasma and tagged correctly you should be covered.

I'd say it's fine and I've seen it done before, the scaffold had sheets of ply down to make moving the scaffold safe.

You should still have a handrail on the tower scaffolding if you're being asked to purch ontop of the tower without that it's definitely out

better an alive knob than a dead fool

the tower is resting on firm, level ground with the locked castors or base plates properly supported. Never use bricks or building blocks to take the weight of any part of the tower;

Definitely says ground.

Would there even be room for the outriggers?

better an alive knob than a dead fool

+1000

From memory a scaff is 5 boards wide plus a toeboard? How are the ally tower outriggers gonna outrigg when the tower will be about the same width as the scaff? Does that make sense?

Ask for it to be erected by someone competent with a ticket and signed off as safe to work on. If it is, it should be?

I’m not pasma certified but it would be built by someone who is, I think there would be room for outriggers and the scaffold it would be sat on us 8 boards deep. I’m toying with saying if extra scaffold handrails are added and the tower is braced to the scaffold standards then I’m willing to do it. Extra handrails on the scaffold to the height tower is at and braced to the scaffold make me think it couldn’t topple over. That’s all I’m concerned with really as the tower will be built properly with handrails etc

How are you going to lift the coping stones up the inside of the tower?

Nope, it’s a no from me. (I do have a PASMA) Point loading on the scaff boards is my reason. You could put up a tower on a Mezzanine where the floor is rated, which the scaff boards may be but not to anything like two lifts of tower two blokes, tools and coping stones. Yes you could get round this by strengthening the scaff boards. But then ask is there an safer way to the job? Yes there is get the scaff company in to build a tower to the height required. There may be a reason they haven’t done this, Is a structural design required for the additional height?

Also do your have a certificate for erecting a mobile scaffold tower? If not you are not allowed to do it.

Thats not true really. PASMA is an organisation providing training courses in how to use a tower safely - lots of people think that what comes from taking one of those course is 'a license' that allows you to do something that other people are prohibited from doing  - what PASMA do is make the receipt for their training course look a lot like a License / ID card. Magically its a receipt that expires after 5 years. As much as it looks like a license it isn't one.

Nobody needs a license of any sort to use an access tower.  You're only 'not allowed to do it' if the site managers have decided a receipt that looks a bit like an ID card is the only way that they'll satisfy themselves that you're someone can use a tower safely.

I think its a shame that a method of working at height that is much safer than using a ladder ..... and an administrative hurdle has been invented to prevent people from using them.

I have a PASMA cert and it would be a hell no from me! Get the scaffolders in to properly modify and certify the existing structure.

Mac, Agreed. It is very frustrating that it is seen that way. See also IPAF expires after 5 years. Licence to make money. But it does mean that the guys I employ have a card to say that they have been trained to use something properly ( or pass a test) and they can go to site and prove it.

^^ regarding the license, reputable suppliers of hired towers won't deliver unless you can show you've been trained to put them up, the course I did was a full day.

I'm an engineer on a Comah site - no way would that be allowed. If you need extra access from scaffolding then get the scaffolders to extend it and tag it off.
End of.

We had similar on our house recently with a reroof, pointing of the gable end and new ridge tiles etc, the additional tower to get to the apex was definitely part of the overall scaffold structure. I know nothing about scaffolding but I wouldn’t set foot on something freestanding as you describe.

We would pass the copings up, they aren’t massive, probably not even 20kg each. The only reason there isn’t a lift there is because someone neglected to think about it.
The safest way is to build a proper scaffold deck at the height I need

regarding the license

What license? 🙂

I'm in no way condoning the attitude of the site in the OP btw. To my mind if scaf has been erect then really its the scaffolder's domain- adding to it or changing /extending the remit of its use should be something they are in charge of

Very bad idea, say no.
Tell them to get the scaff company to extend it correctly.
Its a cheap cost cutter at your risk.

Oh, I own a scaffold company btw.

Mind you climb up the inside of a scaffold, not the outside, the only scaffold you climb up the outside of is one their going to hang you from 😉

mind and use your harness and fall arrest correctly, you are supplied with this aren't you?

Cheers all, I kicked up a bit of a fuss and told a load of people where they could stick the copings. Then spent the whole day wondering if I was a grade a tool!
Will go in tomorrow with a slightly more diplomatic approach!!

Hmmm,

I can’t actually find any information related to building a mobile tower on top of a scaffold deck

Probably because nobody sane would do such a thing and then willingly tell the internet about it...

From my own limited knowledge though this feels like a CDM question...
Who exactly dreamt up the tower on top of scaffolding "solution" and how willing are they to record their liability for said concept? Did you ask to see the designers risk assessment covering this idea? I assume they fully consulted you and talked you through the method statements, SSOW, etc before they told you to clamber up the rickety tower of doom...

It sounds like the sort of idea a site manager, who's worked out it's quicker and cheaper to call HSS and rent a tower for a week than call the scaffolders back in, might have had... am I close?

Ultimately whoever came up with/implemented the idea now gets to be named as the "designer" in a court of law when the HSE prosecute...
Some exciting reading:

https://simian-risk.com/planning-domestic-scaffolding-work-cdm-2015

https://www.hse.gov.uk/construction/safetytopics/scaffoldinginfo.htm

https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/books/l153.htm

No not a knob but sounds like your working with loads of them Definite NO from me for the hassle of getting all the kit passed up and erected get scaffolders to sort a new platform and tag it properly. I assume the proposal would then need a scaffold design passing off and paying for . stick to your guns and stay safe

Tell them to get the scaff company to extend it correctly.

100% this. I send people to site to work on scaffolding, at no point am I going to be asking them to sort out access themselves. Either the safe access is provided by someone competent and confirmed assessed as such, or they aren't going up. I don't ask the scaffolders to handle the bats do I?

Edit: Ecologist. Otherwise the above might sound a bit weird.

The only reason there isn’t a lift there is because someone neglected to think about it.

And now they’re cutting corners on the scaffolding?

I used to work for a construction company. One of the apprentices fell off some scaffolding that wasn’t set up properly. He had been forced to by the clients site manager we were working for. He lived but has injuries preventing him from physical work.

mind and use your harness and fall arrest correctly, you are supplied with this aren’t you?

Even if you are given a harness and fall arrest you would need a rescue plan and other person to be near by to raise the alarm if need be.

Definitely a no from me. In any situation like this (or any health and safety issue) might be worth asking for it to be put into writing of what is meant to happen and who is going to take responsibility if something goes wrong, people soon wind their necks in when it’s their name stamped on to bad and unsafe practice.

my new line manager didn't see a problem with a chainsaw blade poking out of a transit return cage.
Not like they are sharp , pointy and heavy at all. Wrapped it in multiple layers of cardboard taped to the motor. Thus protecting my colleagues , the driver and the unloaders at t'other end.
As for scaffold tower on a scaffold , doesn't sound safe to me at all

Work at Height Regulations apply

https://www.hse.gov.uk/foi/internalops/ocs/100-199/130_8.htm

Previous prosecutions (of employers ) mention

"An investigation by the Health and Safety Executive (HSE) found that the tower scaffold had not been erected by someone with suitable training."
https://press.hse.gov.uk/2021/01/15/roofing-supplies-firm-and-director-fined-after-workers-fall-from-height/

An HSE investigation found that neither Mr Wilson nor the apprentice working alongside him had received any formal training in the use of the type of scaffolding they were asked to work with.
http://www.justsafety.co.uk/blog-articles/news-blog-articles/firm-fined-after-worker-seriously-injured-in-scaffold-fall-2/

https://www.hse.gov.uk/pubns/indg401.pdf

There are some people at the HSE that would like to prosecute employees (victims) of accidents / falls from height.
Plus if you drop something from a scaffold these days , expect to go to court. And if someone is injured by a falling object, expect to be prosecuted.

Scaffolding is a skilled job both the designing and the construction.

https://www.hse.gov.uk/construction/faq-scaffold.htm
https://www.hse.gov.uk/construction/safetytopics/scaffoldinginfo.htm

Speak to the HSE
https://www.hse.gov.uk/contact/index.htm
https://www.hse.gov.uk/logistics/contact-us.htm

Are the scaffolders on site? If so go and speak to the scaffold foreman and ask what he thinks of the idea.

Pissed off scaffolders bring any site to a standstill and will often make it clear using short words if the site managers are being stupid. Although always faux reluctant I usually find scaffolders are pretty good at putting platforms where you need if you say please.

Definitely need a proper scaffold, you don't want a fast transfer to the new hospital!

You should still have a handrail on the tower scaffolding if you’re being asked to purch ontop of the tower without that it’s definitely out

Can I add not handrail but plural rails and toe-boards too. If you kick a bolster or large masons mallet from the top of a lift expect to have your collar felt (as can the site manager and your foreman).

Totally depends whether you're self-employed or not. Employee? Not a chance in hell. Self-employed? Wobble around on top of some step ladders perched on top of the scaffolding.

Without seeing the scaffolding it’s impossible to say if it’s safe or not.

I recently had a project where the only way to reach the workplace was by using a tower scaffold on top of a scaffold. The scaffold and tower scaffold were both designed for the task correctly and the tower scaffold was even on wheels. I’ve also had podium steps on scaffolds but never with wheels.

Sounds a bit sketch. Is the scaffolding platform large enough to accommodate the mobile scaffold tower with outriggers too? Assuming it's a Boss style tower, I'd want the wheels removed and replaced with the flat feet which sit on clamped scaffold boards not loose laid ones. Tower needs outriggers or the tower needs to be fixed to the masonry with an eyebolt and clamp, guardrails at the correct height of 950mm above the working platform along with intermediate rail and toe boards need to be included too. And obviously a valid Scafftag signed by a competent person (PASMA ticketed)

Don't sign the RAMS documentation if you're not happy with it, assuming it has actually been written properly. Another approach might be worth having a quiet word with the hospital H&S manager too and asking them to raise a concern regarding the works.

You def aren't being a knob. I spent 15 years on site as a spark and have done some silly things and seen people do some really stupid things. It's honestly not worth it for your day rate.

After just finishing my access course I don’t know too much about whether it was safe or not but I do know I would be going to find the appropriately trained scaffolder who can sign off a scaffold build as safe and ask them. If there wasn’t one to ask I would tell the foreman to get them back in (if it had been subbed out) and if they weren’t prepared to do that then I’d walk away.
There are so many times we do things just to avoid the hassle and get the job done but it only takes one small issue to put you in a wheelchair, blind you, turn you into a quaraplegic or kill you. Or even worse bring someone else down with you who was innocently walking or working nearby.
There’s nothing that could pursuade me to work 6m up in the air without knowing what I was standing on was as safe as possible.

Scaffolder here, our jobs are generally 10ft lift heights so we always have over trades using the folding towers (with 4/5ft platforms). Its not an actual rule but I'd ask for a 3rd and 4th Handrail to be put in to stop you going over the edge, we always put a 3rd in on the top lifts for scenarios like this

But yes a scaffold built by a competent person will easily take the weight

Cheers all, so after speaking with a scaffolder mate last night a tower scaffold on top of a scaffold is fine to do provided it’s designed safe. Even if it was only a 5 board scaffold you could add extra handrails and brace the tower off of the standards. That way it would need outriggers. It would essentially make the tower an extra scaffold lift with gaurdrails on the tower itself and on the outside of the scaffold.
Going back in this morning to say that’s the only way it’s happening.
I’m a subcontractor so refusing work can be awkward but I get it’s not worth the money