Saving the national grid

What I don’t understand is… if you’re already doing some demand shifting, to try and use electricity when the energy balance is shifted towards renewables (and that mostly means away from times of peak demand), do you still benefit from this? Or is it mostly for people who usually have everything on at peak time, and paying them to do otherwise?

Yeah, we're signed up tonight and were last night too. Thing is, we hardly use any power during those times anyway (we don't start cooking dinner until about half six), so it's very tricky to use less power than not very much 🙁

That’s what I was wondering. We make sure the dishwasher and washing machine never come on at peak times… despite it making no financial difference to us, just trying to avoid adding to demand for gas and coal on the grid… but presumably people that do run their big stuff at peak times can get money for not doing so, where as people already trying to acting in such a way for environment reasons can not?

Thing is, we hardly use any power during those times anyway (we don’t start cooking dinner until about half six), so it’s very tricky to use less power than not very much

Yes, it's a bit weird, but to maximise my £ payout I need to ensure I use as much power as possible at peak times outside of their offer periods....

At the moment, if it's a clear day, the battery lasts till about 8pm unless I go to our workshop gym (which was 2C last night and whack on a couple of 3 kWh fan heaters, which drain the battery in about 15 mins).

Ovo never contacted us and don't have a way to sign up to it. We usually do use most of our power between 17:00 and 19:00, but thanks to the sun being out, we've not used any grid power in the last 2 days and probably won't until about 05:00 tomorrow morning.

That’s what I was wondering. We make sure the dishwasher and washing machine never come on at peak times… despite it making no financial difference, just trying to avoid adding to demand for gas and coal on the grid… but presumably people that do run their big stuff at peak times can get money for not doing so, where as people already trying to acting in such a way for environment reasons can not?

Yep - a bit perverse...

Yes perverse. But no more than building a grid that doesn't work when the wind drops

but presumably people that do run their big stuff at peak times can get money for not doing so, where as people already trying to acting in such a way for environment reasons can not?

No point encouraging people who are already doing what you want them to to change behaviour.

I'd wager most of the people who will see the financial benefits are those with kids (young ones especially), who come home at 4, switch everything in the house on and want to eat at 6-6.30.

In that there time period I expect the majority of non child owners probably won't even be home from work.

But no more than building a grid that doesn’t work when the wind drops

The grid predates the addition of (useful) wind power by some decades....

Great 4x 15min documentary on it on YT:

NB No credit card nor porn sign up required....

As I have batteries and solar, I'm already using zero power at this time so am ineligible. It's a backwards system that rewards people who routinely use excess power at inappropriate times of day.

Indeed it benefits others more than it benefits us - but agreed that I am not convinced it is us who need to change much...

I think this scheme is a good idea; what isn't so good is that there are very few tariffs out there at the moment which would benefit those who basically act like this all the time. We accept variable prices that come and go with demand for most things, so why not this? We should be incentivising people to do stuff outside peak hours all the time, not just during these one-off events.

We're on Octopus Go Faster (until it runs out next month) so we don't really benefit from these events much, but then we've already benefited enormously from getting cheap off-peak power anyway.

Getting more people onto time of use tariffs, and getting everybody used to the idea that electricity is cheaper when it's less in demand, would surely be a good thing.

I think this scheme is a good idea; what isn’t so good is that there are very few tariffs out there at the moment which would benefit those who basically act like this all the time.

I think part of the problem is that the big suppliers are also generators who benefit from been paid a small fortune to provide extra power in peak times, so they have no interest in smoothing out the peaks.

Octopus, who isn't a generator, has no vested interest in keeping peaks peaky.

As I have batteries and solar, I’m already using zero power at this time so am ineligible. It’s a backwards system that rewards people who routinely use excess power at inappropriate times of day.

yep. See also overnight cheap tarifs for drivers.

Flaperon
Full Member
As I have batteries and solar, I’m already using zero power at this time so am ineligible. It’s a backwards system that rewards people who routinely use excess power at inappropriate times of day.

That's a remarkably myopic point of view. A LOT of people use power at this time because it's when work ends and everyone comes home. It's also when almost anyone with younger children will have to cook dinner if you want to get them to bed early. Many people who're working physical jobs might also be hungry when they get home. Just saying, it's not an inappropriate time, it's just the way society is set up. Some people have jobs/families/circumstances which avoid it (we used to eat at 20:00 or 21:00 before kids and my current job), some don't. Don't vilify them for it.

Flaperon
Full Member
As I have batteries and solar, I’m already using zero power at this time so am ineligible. It’s a backwards system that rewards people who routinely use excess power at inappropriate times of day.

Why are those times of day inappropriate?
Who says they are?
What classes as excess power?

thankfully there is enough coal and gas to charge peoples electric cars
https://grid.iamkate.com/

Ovo never contacted us and don’t have a way to sign up to it.

Ovo been doing power move since sept .

Which is less tha 12.5% of your daily power use between 4-7.

So far we have been about 1.2% used between 4-7.

20 quid back each month over the 5 months.

Thus by design we don't qualify for this latest load shift as our usage is already minimal between 4-7

thankfully there is enough coal and gas to charge peoples electric cars

So glad we're moving to zero carbon cars....

The grid predates the addition of (useful) wind power by some decades….

The unreliable grid needing people to reduce use at peak times follows wind power though.

https://davidturver.substack.com/p/exposing-the-hidden-costs-of-renewables?utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web

What’s a unit of power- kWh?

When’s the reference point to cut down from?

What’s a unit of power- kWh?

When’s the reference point to cut down from?

With Octopus, 1) yes and 2) your previous usage in that period.

The unreliable grid needing people to reduce use at peak times follows wind power though.

I was working on radio teleswitch systems nearly forty years ago that shifted demand from peak to base load, so no, not a new thing.

Would I put off eating for 1-2 hours for a payment of £4 - nope.

Would I put off eating for 1-2 hours for a payment of £4 – nope.

That's not what's being asked though is it ?

I can't get on this scheme as my energy provider is dragging by their heels on a smart meter.

I get home and charge my work EV, so it would be very easy to pause it for a couple of hours when they offer the payments and I could claim about 6kwh per hour.

Ovo been doing power move since sept .

Which is less tha 12.5% of your daily power use between 4-7.

but you can’t opt in unless invited.

No you had to register interest before it started. Can't join in half way through.

Every one I know who registered got invited.

Would I put off eating for 1-2 hours for a payment of £4 – nope.

Then don't do it.

We made dinner in the slow cooker instead of the oven or hob so will get a few quid back with no inconvenience at all.

I am up to £32 earned so far with Octopus, and I was not wasting energy beforehand.
My heating is by Air Source Heat Pump so electricity rather than gas, by setting the heating to holiday mode I can significantly cut energy use during the high demand periods.
Make sure the house is sufficiently warm by late afternoon and the heat pump can be switched off for 1 or 2 hours without the house significantly cooling down.
This type of demand shifting will become more significant if / when a greater proportion of heating is electric.

What’s a unit of power- kWh?

No that is a unit of energy, kW is a unit of power.

but presumably people that do run their big stuff at peak times can get money for not doing so, where as people already trying to acting in such a way for environment reasons can not?

No point encouraging people who are already doing what you want them to to change behaviour.

Would be fairer to penalise them for heavy consumption rather than reward them (with other consumers' money) for lightening their consumption. I can imagine the outrage of that being "unfair" though!

No..what os needed is a decent capacity of energy storage to store the energy generated at off peak times by renewable, to use at peak times to manage the Peaks.

Yet another example of strategic infrastructure that the Gov hasn't bothered sorting because its been too busy ****ing itself off repeatedly over leaving the EU and dodging tax.

penalise them for heavy consumption rather than reward them (with other consumers’ money)

It says the Grid expects to pay £3 million in incentives for Monday and Tuesday.

How much does it cost to warm up a coal fired power station in case they are needed? A news article says they paid Drax £420 million to keep two coal power stations on standby this winter and they've stockpiled an extra 400,000 tons of coal. That's a lot of incentives and if it saves on standby power stations then it's not a cost to the consumer (sorry, to the National Grid, who's profits are up 50% to £1.6 billion)

Also, is it fair to penalise heavy users when many will have electric heating, or have tried to be green by getting an EV?

We did it last night we had to reduce .82kWh to .57kWh over the 90minute hour.
Did one a few weeks ago and were rewarded with 43p doesn't really dent the £350 bill.

No..what os needed is a decent capacity of energy storage to store the energy generated at off peak times by renewable, to use at peak times to manage the Peaks.

It's not quite as binary as that. Energy storage is expensive and typically inefficient. In any decently balanced system such as the grid is trying to be it makes a lot of sense to smooth demand as much as is feasible and then use storage and/or intermittent power sources to deal with the remaining peaks and troughs. Incentivizing demand smoothing at the end user level (houses in this case) makes a lot of sense - see the increase in home batteries etc, and with EVs starting to offer bi-directional charging it starts to be feasible to use the EV batteries themselves as part of a local storage solution.

Energy storage is expensive and typically inefficient.

Fit every new house with battery storage and solar and problem largely solved. Subsidise retrofit schemes for batteries. Maybe using that corrupt failed battery production project for home batteries instead of car batteries?

Unfortunately the right people aren’t giving politicians (on both sides) sufficient bribes and education to make it happen.

Solar works even in the winter in the south of the UK. My dad has 20 panels on his farm buildings and has generated more than a gigawatt-hour of electricity in the last six months. The electricity use by the farm is almost zero thanks to some big storage batteries, and the export covers most of the daytime use by his neighbours.

We make sure the dishwasher and washing machine never come on at peak times… despite it making no financial difference to us, just trying to avoid adding to demand for gas and coal on the grid…

people really think like this?

Fit every new house with battery storage and solar and problem largely solved

Hardly cheap and the payback on solar + battery is pretty long (> 10 years typically).

Integrating electric car batteries into the grid might be more cost efficient, as people are going to have those anyway....

I think that a bit of all the above suggestions is likely the way forwards - it's not a one-solution problem. e.g. manage peak demand as much as is feasible (dishwashers etc run at off-peak times via financial incentives ), home batteries to help locally smooth use, home solar panels (which work best with batteries), EV's as part of the home battery puzzle (maybe having an EV doesn't mean that there is no need for a home battery as the car isn't there plugged in 24/7, but maybe that means the home battery can be quite a bit smaller sized).

@dirtyrider

people really think like this?

Absolutely. There's a really simple app you can use called, 'when to plug in'. It forecasts the likely renewables contribution to the grid so you can plan your heavy usage better to reduce the carbon impact. It's so easy to plan when to put the washing on and charge the car, 24hrs delay can make a huge difference.

I'm sure everyone does this already in the summer, you put the washing machine on when it's a good 'drying day', this is just the grid equivalent really.

Back to the original topic - If everyone had smart meters this concept could be hugely successful in reducing the carbon impact of electrical generation. Dynamic unit pricing for the week ahead using the weather forecast could encourage users to plug in heavy use appliances when the grid is most efficient. Obviously this won't work all the time but it would certainly be enough to make a serious difference. The 'mean' unit price could be kept the same for users not on smart meters or vulnerable/unwilling users.

I'm sure this kind of gimmick is a pre-cursor to mass dynamic pricing, it makes perfect sense.

But that's not how energy is sold to the grid, most of it is in futures so all that coal power is already pre-sold along with gas and nuclear so has to be generated or the supplier has to buy it at higher day rates. I have no idea how wind and solar is sold, mostly spot trading I'd imagine but just because a load of wind is blowing or it's exceptionally sunny one day it doesn't mean all the thermal units have shut down.

Some of the posts on this thread absolutely reek of middle class privilege. Wow.

‘Punish people’ for using electricity (that they are already paying stupid money for) instead of incentivise change? FFS.

My lads and I participated in the scene via octopus; we don’t stand to gain greatly as we are already fairly energy conscious and the bills are killing us, but we delayed using the electric cooker for an hour. We actually quite inconvenient and the boys were hungry but we felt like we were doing our bit. Nice to know some people thought I should be penalised for feeding my children at an ‘inappropriate’ time.

people really think like this?

Not only think like that, we act like that. Washing machines and dishwashers set to come on during periods where the grid has a high proportion of wind generated supply. Why whack on these machines when families are cooking their evening meals and gas and coal burning is high to supply their needs? The weird thing to me is that people aren't thinking like this. Have people not been watching the news? Is climate change not a big enough priority for people yet? Rhetorical question... we need variable or dynamic pricing if we're to encourage people to spread energy demand and reduce the use of gas and coal burning to meet peak demand.

As far as I know it doesn’t have to be generated. The system is run on a most efficient/cost per unit basis. So the most expensive power stations are only run when absolutely required. I remember the old Inverkip oil fired power station. Not sure it was ever ran on the grid in anger. Was always the most expensive power station available. A back up that was never used.

If demand could be smoothed out a bit then it’s a win win for the environment and costs. Maybe not great for the coal power stations though.

people who routinely use excess power at inappropriate times of day.

"excess power at inappropriate times" - how the **** would any of us actually know?

I'm old enough to remember when it was the Govts job to 'keep the lights on'.
Yet another task the Tories have shown themselves to be incompetent at.

Some of the posts on this thread absolutely reek of middle class privilege. Wow.

Welcome to STW the home of the myopic

It’s not myopic to try and spread energy use. Quite the opposite. And don’t assume those doing so aren’t also trying to feed their families and find a way to stretch every penny to try and pay bills. It’s not the 20th Century any more, let’s stop painting concerns about climate change as being something only for the well off… we all need to find ways, especially zero cost ways, of finding little things we can do to help with a big problem. Not setting off your washing machine, if you have one, at peak times is not a big sacrifice, and doesn’t add at all to the heavy costs many of us are dealing with. Cooking is a lot harder to time shift, for obvious reasons… I haven’t even tried.

Absolutely. There’s a really simple app you can use called, ‘when to plug in’. It forecasts the likely renewables contribution to the grid so you can plan your heavy usage better to reduce the carbon impact. It’s so easy to plan when to put the washing on and charge the car, 24hrs delay can make a huge difference.

I’m sure everyone does this already in the summer, you put the washing machine on when it’s a good ‘drying day’, this is just the grid equivalent really.

You actually put doing the washing off for a day?

Putting of the washing? Often a few days in our case if there’s a cold snap or other factors that mean gas and coal burning is high. But just delaying for an hour or so can avoid periods of peak demand.

As for the dishwasher (yes, owning one is absolutely a privilege), they have delay start for a reason… delay it to come on outside peak times.

Yes, I don't have much/any money to spare. If it's going to be raining one day and sunny for the next three I'll stockpile it and do three loads.

I don't feel entitled to make decisions irrespective of the financial or environmental impact.

I'm not sure if I should be feeling guilty for thinking like this, it seems obvious, it's how I grew up.

EDIT - I haven't once stated anyone should be punished, quite the opposite, people should be incentivised.

It’s not myopic to try and spread energy use. Quite the opposite.

+1

I’m old enough to remember when it was the Govts job to ‘keep the lights on’.

That was before global warming, now 'keeping the lights on' is also 'boiling the frog alive'.

You actually put doing the washing off for a day?

Doesn't everyone?! I'll always do washing when I can hang it out on the line, doing it when it's forecast to rain or generally damp means having to use the tumble dryer or dehumidifier so that only happens when the weather is consistently shit.

You actually put doing the washing off for a day?

Even before I had solar we would even more so if a braw drying day was forecast. Logical

I remember the old Inverkip oil fired power station. Not sure it was ever ran on the grid in anger.

It was during the miners strike, old boy I worked with was an operator there before Hunterston.

As for the dishwasher (yes, owning one is absolutely a privilege), they have delay start for a reason… delay it to come on outside peak times.

Oh shit now you've done it, everyone will be here to tell you how you're going to incinerate everyone you know and love. That said, my dishwasher is about 20 years old, doesn't have delay start and the clockwork timer occasionally flakes out so we can't leave it.

a braw drying day...

...doesn't exist between September and April here.

It’s not myopic to try and spread energy use. Quite the opposite. And don’t assume those doing so aren’t also trying to feed their families and find a way to stretch every penny to try and pay bills

I never said it was. It's the opinion that people can shift around their major energy use jus because you can. It's myopic to assume that, because one person can do something then all others can or that they are not already doing washing machine runs out of peak time etc and that their major use period syncing with many others major use period is not movable. That is what is myopic about many of the comments in this thread. Being unable to see that what works for one does not work for many for lots of different individual reasons. This is a general trend on this forum.

I never said it was. It’s the opinion that people can shift around their major energy use jus because you can.

They probably could, they don't have the time or the inclination to do so - or haven't even considered it a possibility. Worrying about peak loading on the nation grid is going to be pretty low down on most peoples priority lists.

@pictonroad

Would be fairer to penalise them for heavy consumption rather than reward them (with other consumers’ money)

was the post suggesting punishment. Which is a bit weird, to be honest. (It would also be exactly the same thing as is happening really, just with a different spin on it. If you choose not to participate, you are ‘penalised’ by not receiving a small discount.

Odd that the posters mind would go to penalty rather than incentive, but hey ho.

It just says 'Calculating' when I look at our account, but...

More than £1m was paid to energy customers with Octopus Energy on Tuesday as part of a power saving scheme.

The energy supplier said more than 400,000 customers took part by reducing their electricity use between 4.30pm and 6pm.

The average customer was paid £2.50 in points for reducing their usage by an average of 60%. The top 5% were paid £15 in points. The Octopus deal can see the points turned into cash, “prizes” or donated to a fund for customers in need.

The total amount of energy saved was about 250MWh (megawatt hours) nationwide, the same as the city of Liverpool going off grid for an hour, PA Media said.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/jan/25/1m-paid-to-octopus-energy-customers-as-part-of-power-saving-scheme

You actually put doing the washing off for a day?

Doesn’t everyone?! I’ll always do washing when I can hang it out on the line, doing it when it’s forecast to rain or generally damp means having to use the tumble dryer or dehumidifier so that only happens when the weather is consistently shit.

a braw drying day…

…doesn’t exist between September and April here.

Yeah, the defence of waiting for a good drying day are probably being typed by people who never do the washing. Even a sunny, windy day at this time of year barely dries anything. I washed a load of towels last week - nice sunny, draughty day in tropical south Wales. I brought them back in again about 12 hours later the tiniest bit drier. They were dried in the tumble. The radiators are constantly covered with clothes here.

My next house, ideally a self build, will have:
- a covered veranda with lines to hang clothes year around.
- an insulated laundry room with hanging racks all over and a trombe wall with dehumidifier.

I added a trombe wall to a 18x18 shed my old outdoor centre used as a drying room - just painted the wood black, added a glazed pane which was recycled 6' high shop front glass, drilled a series of holes at top and bottom with some planks of wood to close them in the winter. My word it kicked in some heat when the sun even vaguely showed signs of coming out...