Saudi sportswashing

I think they will flatter to deceive for a year or two, then fade away like the Chinese league did.

You need more than money to build a successful league, you need fans in grounds, rivalries and passion to sell even to TV audiences. The world might sit up and take notice of the transfer fees, but nobody is going to sit up and notice the football.

I dont get the problem. Football at every level is about money. My son is 13 and has a value on his head. A coach has even talked to me about how he is an asset that they hope to sell on.

The whole middle east is where the game is going to see its next growth. A few years back it was the USA but that hasnt really taken off in quite the same way as they dont have quite as much cash to throw at it.

Its a shame that UK clubs are not investing more money in developing the women's game

All current top flight teams across the world are billionaires buying their way in. Until recently Chelsea spent two decades being funded (probably) by the Russian mob.

Its a global world, if people want to watch the worlds best players in a competitive close league on their TVs, the location and bank roll is fairly irrelevent.

If you want a centuries old rivalry between two cities, or two halves of one city, fierecly contested by locals of that city; you already have to look away from the top of the PL, la liga etc.

I think they will flatter to deceive for a year or two, then fade away like the Chinese league did.

I was just going to say the same. 10 years ago it was China, 20 years ago it was America. This will be the same.

Every football fan in the World knows about the rivalry between Man Yoo and Liverpool, Spurs and Arsenal or El Classico and how the history of those clubs and fixtures make those matches what they are

Nobody gives a flying **** about Al Hilal v Al Ittihad and they never will, no matter how much money they throw at it

only for a year as well isn't it, then he'll be allowed to join Madrid

If you want a centuries old rivalry between two cities, or two halves of one city, fierecly contested by locals of that city; you already have to look away from the top of the PL, la liga etc.

That doesnt exist any where in European leagues unfortunately. Players find their level in which ever league and play for the club that whats them or pays them. There is zero allegiance or loyalty to any club unfortunately. (more the clubs fault than players)

See also, every other popular global (non American exclusive) sport. Golf and F1 spring to mind.

Money is the boss these days so far as big star players and managers are concerned. The effect is to make it very difficult to compete in the champions league etc if you're not at the top of of 3 or 4 domestic leagues. It happened to many countries 30 years ago or more, now it's happening again.
The good news is that with proper management so called lesser domestic leagues can not only get by but grow.
https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11781/12810174/scottish-football-tops-european-attendance-per-capita-table-ahead-of-second-placed-netherlands

Kante, Neves, Koulibaly, Mendy, Jota, Firminho, Silva, Zaha, Pogba, Henderson, Fabinho, Telles, Mahrez and Saint-Maxxim being the most high profile players

All either not really that good or at the end of their careers, so a sort of very well paid semi-retirement. Its not like they've just signed the likes of Bellingham and Haaland, is it?

All of the players on that list will be instantly forgotten the second the Premier League and Champions League kick off again.

They'll have a couple of years kicking about in a sandpit to an audience of pretty much nobody, while making millions, then quietly retire.

Jordon Henderson is on £700,000 a week FFS?! 😂

I'm a huge football fan but in terms of things I'm not remotely bothered about:
- a Saudi/Qatari league containing a load of footballers/hypocrites nearing the ends of their careers and/or just wanting a massive pay day playing in front of tiny crowds in empty stadiums
- whats on Channel 5 at the minute
- what you're eating for dinner
- Suella Braverman in the crosshairs of a trained sniper

Jordon Henderson is on £700,000 a week FFS?!

As hypocritical as the champagne socialist that is Gary Neville...

I'd say that given his previous outspoken stance on LGBT+ rights, Jordon Henderson has just elevated himself to a whole new level of hypocrisy

Unless he plans to be a martyr.

"As hypocritical as the champagne socialist that is Gary Neville…"

Better a champagne socialist that a coke-snorting Tory though.

Sports washing is fine, it's the buying political influence that's the bigger concern. Hopefully, this just brings attention to how corruption works to more people.

See also, every other popular global (non American exclusive) sport. Golf and F1 spring to mind.

And cycling, let's not forget cycling, it too is not immune from state-sponsored sportswashing

Bahrain Victorious
Israel-Premier Tech
Jayco-AlUla
UAE Team Emirates
Astana Qazaqstan

I'd be quite surprised if Mbappe actually goes there - as Binners says, all of the players that have actually moved are nearing the end of their careers, or aren't really top tier players anyway.

Though I hope that the Saudi league fails like the Chinese attempt did, the sportswashing is real and happening regardless 😞 Yes, shame on individuals & clubs for taking the money, but the main issue is the governments and sporting bodies that are allowing clubs and leagues to be brought up. They are less visible but far more culpable.

Not sure what I'd do if my club was brought by a despotic regime but it would be a sad day.

Its debatable whether you think Mbappe has been playing in a Mickey Mouse league for the last few years anyway, so the only thing that will change is he won't be playing in the Champions League

And while doing so he's been paid his enormous wage by dodgy human rights abusers, so not much would be changing here for him

I can't see him going though. Everyone and his dog knows he's just going to see out his contract and go to Real on a free at the end of this season

And cycling, let’s not forget cycling, it too is not immune from state-sponsored sportswashing

Bahrain Victorious
Israel-Premier Tech
Jayco-AlUla
UAE Team Emirates
Astana Qazaqstan

Soon to be joined by Saudi NEOM Visma if reports are to be believed.

Not billions being chucked around in cycling yet though, is there?

Not billions being chucked around in cycling yet though, is there?

I dont know if that really makes a difference does it? If anything selling out on the cheap is worse. At least make the human rights abusers pay properly.

great podcast on this from last year if anyones interested - https://freakonomics.com/podcast/what-is-sportswashing-and-does-it-work/

I’d be quite surprised if Mbappe actually goes there

I wouldn't be. He's admitted he'll happily sit on the bench at PSG and not play for a year - doesn't exactly scream professionalism to me.

Has he admitted that? I thought it was PSG who have said they will sit him on the bench if he doesn't get sold, he just hasn't blinked yet.

He has become a spoiled brat at PSG (maybe he was before), but PSG are the bigger idiots in this farce.

He’s admitted he’ll happily sit on the bench at PSG and not play for a year – doesn’t exactly scream professionalism to me.

Is that not the exact definition of professsionalism in this case? Happy to sell himself as a commodity to the highest bidder.

A true football lover would take a paycut for more game time, would carry on playing at a lesser level late in their career, would move into coaching/managing despite having no financial need to do so.

The thing with China though, as far as I understand it, is that they are desperate to make a significant statement on the work stage. I suspect the league thing was part of the overall strategy to try and give the programme a boost but there is a lot going on at the grass roots level to groom and develop young players to become good enough for China to win the work cup in a "few years" (probably 1000) time. They would appear to be taking a similar approach to the way they develop all their athletes and are being ruthless about talent spotting and discarding if not making the grade / putting the work in.

Like others have said though, the Saudi thing does seem more about trying to gain acceptability in the world of sport and probably improve their game. But mostly the only players going there are those who are on the brink of retiring and getting themselves a nice payout for it. Based on what I saw in the world cup though, I suspect the intensity of the football matches is a lot higher than what we saw when the US were starting out and where players like Beckham were probably no ,more taxed than they would in a training game

Tis pro sport. Wrong at some level in almost any sport. Meh

I find the whole thing a bit odd. Until recently the ultra rich with dodgy money bought big name toys - Chelsea, Man City, Newcastle, and sprinkled them in glitter. A bit like buying a Rolex or a Rolls Royce, but going custom with gaudy diamond studding. Or breeding race horses and doing the rounds of the world's most prestigious race course winners enclosures. It was filthy, debouched and cringy but essentially it was bored rich brats filling their time. It lost rather than made money but bought you a hard on and people cheered and you basked in reflected glory. But now - it just seems to have shifted through the gears but I'm not sure what the point is. Filling an empty stadium with has been show ponies for a club no one has ever heard of or cares about in an irrelevant league - where's the cache? Where's the reflected glory in an echoing stadium and a match report on some backwater website? It's like pimping a Casio rather than a Rolex. Same for the LIV golf concept too - don't buy one of the majors, just invent a random list of competitions and spunk enough cash at a few players until they 'enter' it.

I guess it's only a success if fans are won over and forget about the chopping up of journalists and popping them in holdalls inconvenient truth bit. Or the stoning to death bit. Or....well pretty much all of the rest of it. I'd like to say it won't happen but I'd imagine your average Newcastle fan already feels all benevolent to the Saudi's after a bit of a tummy tickle so it probably will.

The whole western world has been bankrolling the Saudi regime for decades and without the vast profits they make selling oil the current situation wouldn't have been possible. I'm no fan of the Saudi's, their oppressive laws and customs or the radical version of Islam they have promoted all over the world for years (I am a lifelong Newcastle fan) but we've pretty much all had a hand in enabling them to get to this point

I thought it was PSG who have said they will sit him on the bench if he doesn’t get sold, he just hasn’t blinked yet

With the caveat that there are no good guys in this, all he’s doing is honouring his contract.

Its PSG are having a hissy fit about it as they want to cash in. They should have thought about that when they paid 700 squillion euros for him. See also: Paul Pogba. Someone else off to cash in in Saudi.

Anyway.. it’s a bit bloody rich for the owners of PSG to be bleating about being the ones at the wrong end of dodgy oil riches for a change

They aren't particularly selling this to the western market.  There are Saudi fans but they are also selling this to the rest of the world, and doing that by bringing in household names who have a worldwide fan base is sensible. This is part of the big modernisation push including opening up tourism outside of the hajj. The whole point of the NEOM is to make Saudi a tourism destination, not for you that wants to sit on the beach getting ratted on cheap/expensive booze but for an increasingly affluent eastern market.

NEOM is not a resort. It's supposed to be a sustainable, carbon neutral, crossborder, techno-crypto high speed city that will something something something. There is no strategy around NEOM. It's a totally redundant money pit that no-one who's getting paid to do it will object to.

It's not a resort but it's tied I to the plan to make NW Saudi a destination.

It’s not a resort but it’s tied I to the plan to make NW Saudi a destination.

Yep, I am sure a tour of failed megaprojects will attract some visitors.

I’m more concerned about the political influence they are buying. They already have the king wrapped round their cash filled fingers. How many MPs and ministers are in the same position

Yep, I am sure a tour of failed megaprojects will attract some visitors.

TBF some people do go to visit the site of the Aral Sea.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aral_Sea

I’m more concerned about the political influence they are buying.

That ship sailed in the 70's, I'm afraid...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p02gyz6b/bitter-lake

They keep the oil taps turned on to the west and in return they get to do whatever the **** they like.

I was talking about this the other week with someone at work. What I don't understand for the majority of these players is except for the money what as re they getting out of it. I know I've answered my own question but I'm pretty sure all of the above mentioned names have more money than they could ever want. I get they are getting a boat load more but they don't need it and they have to live in Saudi with everything that entails, even in some super-rich enclave. I actually admire Messi a bit more for saying sod that, I'm going to live it up in Miami (even if it wasn't the reason)

I get they are getting a boat load more

Jordon Henderson is seeing out his career on three quarters of a million quid a week

JORDAN ****ING HENDERSON!! 😳

My brain can’t process this stuff. Too much to comprehend - not many Championship clubs would want Henderson, yet he’ll get more money (tax free) than any one of us would get in 10 or 15 years in a couple of weeks - or much more. Within a few months he’ll earn more money than every one of us on here combined will earn in a lifetime.

And the most bonkers thing about it is that if he’d have gone to a mid table Championship side, he’d have about a million times as many people watching him play as he will have at Beheadings United

It's the speed they're going at that's surprising most, it's unreal the money spent this summer, but the reality is that it's probably the best time for them to make this impact, you have FFP coming in hard for teams, and Saudi clubs paying top money for players and wages that'll shift anyone, it's a dream come true for those teetering on the edge of FFP with players on large salaries not desperate to move.

As for going the way of the USA or China, well the USA was trying to get into a bigger market and didn't, China was awash with new money and spending it, until they hit a huge recession, Saudi won't have either of those, it has no need to 'break' into a large market, and the PIF that owns most of the clubs is struggling to build their assets with the money they have.

Personally, i know Saudi, Qatar, etc have a bad reputation, but change won't happen unless they need to for a reason, and i guess the more they take up western ways and open their doors to this, the more chance that the next generation may be more open to change, it'll not happen overnight, but the middle east does seem to be opening up a little in certain areas.

You could be right. Give it another 50 years and they may consider letting women come and watch a match

I think you’re right about clubs offloading players. What was Pogba getting paid? And he was actually on the pitch for how long last season? 20 minutes? I bet they couldn’t wait to see the back of him. I know we couldn’t! I wonder if any of them fancy Harry Maguire?

Talking of FFP, I wonder if any eyebrows will be raised when Newcastle get £6 billion for Saint-Maximin 😂

Meh, as a fan of a Scottish team, i've watched my team go from being able to get great players, to struggling to compete financially with mid table Championship teams. The EPL has been a big money pit for foreign billionaires and corporations for the last two decades and all the Saudi teams are doing is playing them at their own game.

There's only really 2 or 3 Saudi teams who are going to be buying top drawer throughout, so maybe the real endgame is the world league featuring the biggest 20 teams, UEFA might be getting a bit twitchy if the end game is something like that, as the PIF could throw billions at it to start up without breaking a sweat!

^^^ which is the next point - NUFC offload him for big money to who are basically the same funders and NUFC get to circumvent FFP rules. Absurd.

PIF are big funders of Clearlake as well, who fund Chelsea. Funny how many Chelsea players have headed off to Saudi, might just help Chelsea comply with FFP and trim down the squad a bit.

Apparently Fabinho’s move is being held up by some wrangle about whether he can take his French bulldogs with him!

The money PIF has staggers me - LIV golf for example paid Phil Mickelson £50m to sign up! And yes, Jordan Henderson’s salary 😳

i guess the more they take up western ways and open their doors to this, the more chance that the next generation may be more open to change

Yeah? How's that working out in Russia, almost 40 years on from Glasnost? This is the worst and weakest version of Thomas Friedman's McDonald's theory of capitalist peace.

@binners I get what you are saying about the absurd money Henderson is on and that's obviously why he's doing it but I can't imagine he's short of a few bob anyway so why not going and play somewhere nice where the quality of life might be enjoyable for you and you family, even if it is for substantially less cash (I do appreciate that an enjoyable quality of life is subjective and different people want different things even if I don't agree with them but I can't imagine KSA was top of Hendersons or Ronaldos holiday destination list)

Are the Saudi's really trying to bring in Tourists. Granted it was years ago, now, since I was there but it is a ballache to get in the country. You need to be invited and go through a visa process. Stating atheism as your religion got you declined (as many people in my company decided to do to avoid going). It's not like we'll be hoping on an easyJet flight anytime soon.

My guess is the players won't live there and on the money they are on will simply take a private jet in for each match. Of pick one of the better local options like Dubai or Bahrain. But lots of people do it. Friend of mine has just retired from the police and is going to do a few years on the Neom thing. Basically it pays for his wife to retire as well.

Are the Saudi’s really trying to bring in Tourists.

Yes. Its one of their target growth industries with a massive amount of investment and sports tournaments are part of the plan.
Its a new thing with them only issuing tourists visas in 2019 but its a priority for them.

@binners I get what you are saying about the absurd money Henderson is on and that’s obviously why he’s doing it but I can’t imagine he’s short of a few bob anyway so why not going and play somewhere nice where the quality of life might be enjoyable for you and you family, even if it is for substantially less cash

You'll have to ask him that. And all the rest of them. I can't imagine any of them are short of a few quid, but they're off there to cash in. I bet they've all got a place in Dubai anyway so its just a short hop in a private jet for training

Meanwhile, the details of Mbappe's potential deal has emerged as he's had the green light to talk to whoever it is (who cares?) in Saudi. I bet he has!

PSG get 260 million to buy out the last 12 months of his contract and Mbappe gets a pay packet of 600 million for the year (he presently earns a mere 72 million PA), then swans off to Real Madrid

Its utterly insane as we all know how the world of football works. Every agent is now going to start any transfer fee or wage negotiations by saying 'my client has been offered the equivalent of the GDP of Portugal to play for Oil Reserves United in Saudi....'

I gather there are no financial fair play rules in Saudi (of course there isn't) as the gate receipts for games will be about twenty quid and the TV broadcast rights will be less than for non-league football in the UK. As far as balancing the books are concerned, that makes Citeh look like bastions of financial probity

It's pretty much all too good to turn down deals, Jota who moved from Celtic basically gets 10 times his pay now, he'll be based in a city that will have every type of amenity, leisure and luxury to keep him going, same will go for the rest, for a single contract, we're talking generational wealth for the players, if Henderson is getting 600k-700k a week basically tax free, he'll be earning as much in a year or two as he has in his entire career to this point!

It's the endgame that's the big question, Saudi's aren't daft, they're not going to fritter away £5-10 billion from their PIF for a couple of years of decent players in their big teams, there has to be more, such as the worldwide league, where we see Al Hilal and Al Ittihad in with the big boys of Europe and playing weekly.

Saudi’s aren’t daft, they’re not going to fritter away £5-10 billion from their PIF 

How's LIV Golf going?

The problem here is that you have a tiny number of inconceivably wealthy (and often poorly educated) people making quick decisions based on the back of the envelope recommendations of a feeding frenzy of foreign bullshitters, consultants, agents and wideboys. There is zero incentive among these people to say "this is a crap idea that will lose of money" because all that means is that the cash sprinkler gets turned off and you get put on a plane home.

It's like a less restrained version of Twitter-era Elon Musk.

How’s LIV Golf going?

Seems to be a success. They have forced the PGA tour to back down.

It’s like a less restrained version of Twitter-era Elon Musk.

A closer match would be soft bank with its investment strategy of just throwing money at things especially those thought to be "disruptors". They do have the money to spare though and they just need some to pay off.

@politecameraaction - you’re bang on. It’ll be interesting to see how much of this is being egged on by the limitless greed of agents and the likes of the people responsible for the Superleague proposals, who will be telling them they’ll be the biggest league in the world in ten years time

But can anyone think of anything else, other than football, that has better demonstrated that throwing money at something doesn’t necessarily give you the answer you were looking for?

Maybe ask Todd Boelly how his ownership of Chelsea is going since he bought it and started throwing money around like a pissed sailor on shore leave?

But can anyone think of anything else, other than football, that has better demonstrated that throwing money at something doesn’t necessarily give you the answer you were looking for?

rugby? smaller sums but same effect

I know very little about football.....anyway, Mbappe (I've vaguely heard of him) is he genuinely being offered 600m per year to play there?! I know that they're all on crazy money....but that's the GDP of some small nations!

@Tom-B - Thats the 'basic' salary he's being offered. If he actually goes then I'm sure he'll have 'add-ons' of win bonuses and image rights on top of that.

He'll probably be looking at 3/4 of a billion a year, all in, I reckon

Utterly insane!

It'd start a domino effect though. So if he goes then PSG have then got 260 billion to spend on players, so they go on a shopping spree and it then drives up (the already ridiculous) transfer fees and wages across the board and the already vast chasm between the rich clubs and the rest grows ever wider

The money PIF has staggers me – LIV golf for example paid Phil Mickelson £50m to sign up!

tiger was offered 700 mil and turned it down apparently. Either he’s got morals, or getting his head cut of for shagging his way round the kingdom didn’t appeal

edit..that makes no sense actually as no liv events are in Saudi!!😂

He’ll probably be looking at 3/4 of a billion a year, all in, I reckon

Utterly insane!

It’d start a domino effect though. So if he goes then PSG have then got 260 billion to spend on players, so they go on a shopping spree and it then drives up (the already ridiculous) transfer fees and wages across the board and the already vast chasm between the rich clubs and the rest grows ever wider

It really is insane. And all that is going to happen is that they end up with this league full of big-name players playing for clubs with no real history, no passionate fan base, just a bunch of half-interested blokes going to see these 'great' footballers play football for them. The games will inevitably end up feeling like exhibition matches, like some kind of football-playing Harlem Globetrotters.

the limitless greed of agents and the likes of the people responsible for the Superleague proposals, who will be telling them they’ll be the biggest league in the world in ten years time

The football is just the most obvious, most silly example. But it's just picking up a model that was well-established across other economic sectors where people don't usually wear sheepskin coats: you find a patron, you find a broker/sponsor, you tell them how this gigantic gold dog egg will be transformative and the biggest and the buzzword-est, you get a whole bunch of money to plan it, then to build it, and if you're clever you escape with full pockets before it becomes obvious that it's a disaster...

Any cricket fans in? we've had 15 years of the Indian Premier League.

I will admit to not knowing the financials of how things are going; but a cursory look shows they have filled stadiums, big TV audiences and big (for the sport) paychecks for the stars.

And it has affected, but not ruined, the world wide cricket scene.

But cricket has always been absolutely massive in India anyway, which is exactly why the IPL has grown into the behemoth it is

It’s football equivalent is the Premier League in this country. Remember that it’s only been going 30 years in its present format too. The most watched league in the world by a country mile, with a global audience of billions. Thus attracting the big money owners and sponsors, and the best players on the highest salaries

Other countries leagues have a couple of dominant teams that win everything every year and just aren’t in the same … erm… league, entertainment-wise. It’s all so tediously predictable.

Imagine if Saudi Arabia announced tomorrow that they were setting up a national cricket league as a rival to the IPL, and then started offering all the worlds top cricketers ten times the salaries of the IPL to move to Saudi instead?

That’s what’s happening here

But cricket has always been absolutely massive in India anyway, which is exactly why the IPL has grown into the behemoth it is

It’s football equivalent is the Premier League in this country.

Absolutely this - inners has it spot on.

IPL was different - that was about creating a new league in a populous country with rising incomes and an expanding media sector. Importantly, there was a sanity check on the enthusiasm of the founders: the IPL would only work if other business owners thought it would be worthwhile buying some of the franchises from the founders, and that would only work if they could persuade media networks to pay them for the rights. The last round of IPL rights went for about USD 6 bn...

What is the business model for Salt Bae United paying 10 zillion dollars a year to individual footballers? An increased gate? More merchandise sales? More valuable media rights? It ain't gonna happen. All this is convincing daft patriots that this will be for the good of the country and will position them as a top tier superpower...somehow...

Another great example of the ‘morality’ of modern football.

Hey, we’re all dealing with the Saudi’s, who are a bit dodgy on the human rights frond

Daniel Levy… “hold my beer….”

https://twitter.com/guardian/status/1684061946155352064?s=46&t=1lK7Dw1b6RqGJyvufO-trQ

More from today’s Guardian

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/26/revealed-saudi-arabia-6bn-spend-on-sportswashing?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

https://twitter.com/domjoly/status/1684887886498557952?s=20

The very definition of selling out!

I see all this saudi money sloshing around makes united think Maquire is worth 40 mill.

Nah… he’ll go out on loan. Nobody’s that gullible, not even the Saudi’s  😂

Wheels are falling off already, now it looks like Benzema is also trying to find an exit. Henderson had to forgo his wages for the time he spent there to get out, I suspect a higher profile player like Benema will find the exit negotiations harder. Will be a bigger slap in the face for a high profile muslim player to also want out.

Any players tempted by the money are going to be having second thoughts now.