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A war in Yemen, even Bush & Blair would be ashamed of
Gender equality that even Jordan Peterson might dislike
<span style="font-size: 0.8rem;"> The king just sent his personal bodyguard & head of national forensics agency to drug & dissmember whilst still alive a critical journalist</span>
Even Liam Fox has boycotted their latest gig & he's a man less untouched by conscience than your average psychopath
Oh & they invented wahabism to control the populace that would become the foundation for Al Qaeda & ISIS....
I know we need the oil, but wtf are we friends with them again?
Watch the Adam Curtis documentary ‘Bitter Lake’. It explains why with American backing, they’re effectively exempt from international law, as long as they agree to keep the oil flowing no matter what happens. An agreement reached after the 70’s oil crisis
Pretty much all the problems in the region are the fault of the Saudi’s
Because they’ve got all the Oil and all the Money and the UK has a long history of shutting up and taking the money.
Even the rest of the Middle East generally can’t stand them, Saudis are generally stupid, ignorant and arrogant in equal measure.
One glorious day in the not too far future, we (the West) won’t need them anymore, either we’ll find oil somewhere more convenient or we just won’t need it anymore and they’ll be back to roaming the desert chopping each other’s heads off within a generation.
Apparently they are a strong ally in counter-terrorism to the US. (I heard today on the rad)
More like a breeding ground.
Principles often stop when money is involved. Just look at peoples shopping habits, people are happy to buy sweat shop stuff, from an area of human rights violations as long as its cheap.
they invented wahabism
Those wahabi peas are brilliant though. I wonder what they call big tissues in Saudi Arabia?
Oil. What are you doing to buy less?
Using synthetic lubes.
The have oil and money
we want both of these from them
we pretend they are our friends in the goodies and baddies game we play in the Middle East to make ourselves feel better
Don’t we sell the fine people of Saudi millions of pounds worth of arms every year too?
It boils my urine that no one will ever stand up to them because they have a ‘get out of
jail’ card with all that oil.
Time to go and buy an electric car.
We chose Iran to be the baddies at some point. Not sure when but possibly when we were arming Sadam...
they are the oil option if Saudi are the bad guys. You only have to look and see how hard the USA are trying to keep them as the baddies to see the influence of Saudi/Israel...
its a repressive authoritarian regime with a mix of fear, violence and slave labour at the core. I wonder how that TESLA deal is looking to Elon now...
The UK (and most other countries) puts money about ethics and morals. Not just Saudi Arabia, we are also trying to sell stuff to North Korea. Even if the people didn't want this to happen who would they vote for who would stop it?
Would even Corbyn stop arms sales, unions won't like that!
Trump's worry is that midterms might see him lose control of Congress & force sanctions that he's desperate to avoid as he & kushner have $$$ invested with Bin Salman.
Erdogan, for once in a position to lecture someone else on press freedom & human rights!
Will use this to the max as he hates the Saudi's, he's maximising the impact by slowly drip feeding the info, assume that the tapes will be released at somepoint, too.
My colleague is Turkish & says the press are running with it non stop.
It helps erdogan that he runs a police state, even though the Saudi's sent all local staff home on the day of the murder, everyone reports to the authorities, including the decorators they got in to paint over the evidence.
I suppose it's just scary that bin salman was not even subtle, sending his bodyguards & senior government figures, traveling openly to do the murder, fk knows what he gets away with at home.
Would even Corbyn stop arms sales, unions won’t like that!
He would probably like to, along with any other stuff sold with and traded with countries such as Saudi Arabia. Unfortunately I am not sure what state our economy would be in if we took that stance, I would guess not a particularly great one. And the only benefit would be a moral one for those that actually give a shit (estimated at less than a million people)
I hate to say it but I doubt this horrendous murder of an innocent man will change anything. Trump and Western leaders are playing for time, refusing to condemn Saudi Arabia whilst hoping it will all blow over.
Perhaps Congress will attack him for it politically, which might start a round of sanctions, but I daresay a lot of democrats as well as republicans have skin in the game when it comes to Mr Saud's Kingdom.
MBS does seem unusually unhinged even for a Saud prince.
even Bush & Blair would be ashamed of
Hmm, I think Trump has distracted people from remembering what a pair of shitheads those two were.
I don’t understand why it’s such big news. Is it because it happened in another country?
its clearly abhorrent and tragic but it’s a country where they literally perform crucifixion for being gay and stone women to death for being raped.
The murder of a journalist they don’t like seems like pretty regular behaviour for a country run by insane religious fanatics.
I've always been into boycotts of things that are not to my liking - after all it's your main course of direct action. However is there any truth in doing battle from the inside - you form a realationship that may included profitable benefit but your at least able to influence things.
For instance the UAE (or some of it) are far from ideal societies but because their leaders have more open door to business - they are somewhat less severe than Saudi in terms of punishment, Sharia etc.
I would rather not sell weapons to anyone though.
This week's 'last week tonight' with john Oliver also did its main story on Saudi Arabia, and the fact that mbs is trump's kind of guy and pretty much the same. Also featured the press conference when mbs is openly laughing at trump as trump lists all thr big money contracts from his primary school wallchart
Stop selling weapons to them and then invade under the pretext of gender equality or something and steal all the oil.
Funnily enough, one thing you rarely, if ever, hear from a Brexiter is "to take back control" of energy and become energy independent.
Whilst reliant on others energy, you're at the whim of disconnected and disinterested, perhaps even vengeful actors.
However, it could be argued that you're less likely to go to war with states with whom you share energy infrastructure. (Sharing caring. We buy oil like a junkie buys scag)
I was quite surprised when I realised how much Levantine Arabs (Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Jordan) hate Gulf Arabs, especially Emiratis and Saudis. It all goes back to before oil, when the Levant was a culturally rich and relatively wealthy area and gave aid to tiny Gulf nations, who became fat, greedy and arrogant and forgot all the help they had been given. The only Gulf country I ever liked was Oman; they seemed decent people there.
I like the Judean Peoples Front . . . .
🙂
Oman is a nice place but still an absolute monarchy. From memory it is only the most recent sultan who has decided to put a significant amount of money into the economy to help normal people. He is seriously ill (cancer?), the oil money is running out and I'm not sure what will happend when he dies.
Jordan has it's ups and downs but my limited knowledge of the ace suggests the they are heavily responsible for what little peace there is in the region. They've got difficuly neighbours!
I think the interest of this sbeen driven by the press as the guy was writing for the Washington Post. They've not got the options governments have but my making this a big deal they can influence how things pan out.
It'll blow over, we'll resume the status quo. Too many vested interests. Final of the GBBO will distract people.
Its was an accidental dismemberment!
It’s definitely a bit suspicious when someone takes a bone saw to a fist fight.
Its was an accidental dismemberment!
His final wishes clearly stated he wanted to be scattered around the 4 corners of Saudi Arabia .......and also not to be cremated.
A bone saw that the head of forensics at the Saudi Interior ministry bought within an hour of getting off the plane & before he went to the embassy.....
Of course Trump has now called the Saudi explanation credible 🙄
To be called credible by Trump is like a football manager getting a vote of confidence from the board.
Listening to R5L this morning only confused the issue more.. a fight, dismember the body, thugs over ruling the embassy and now Trump saying the killing was “credible”
What on Gods Earth 😳
A bone saw that the head of forensics at the Saudi Interior ministry bought within an hour of getting off the plane & before he went to the embassy…..
Which strikes, to me, that this was a setup all along.
Journo called to embassy, a journo that writes politically sensitive reporting, then gets killed to shut him up..
Of course Trump has now called the Saudi explanation credible
But what reason does the rich man have to lie to him? Next up he will be telling us Putin is just misunderstood
What on Gods Earth
Obvious really. Saudi’s did what we all know they did, come up with paper thin excuse and Trump finds a way to climb down from the sabre rattling before it gets properly serious.
I guess it was just bad luck that Khashoggi picked a fight with someone planning on sawing up chicken carcasses to make a tasty broth.
Prisoners of Geography gives a good background on the Middle East situation. Sadly doesn't offer any solutions, though...
IMHO the problem with Saudi Arabia and the Emirates etc will only go away when we either run out of oil, or wean ourselves off it for everything bar air travel. If you gave me the choice between fracking, say, Lancashire, or to continue buying oil from Saudi Arabia, then I'd recommend starting with Accrington in the hope it collapses into the resulting void.
To be called credible by Trump is like a football manager getting a vote of confidence from the board.
Or, in the case of Christine Blasey Ford, a respectful precursor to getting ruthlessly mocked and belittled at one of his rallies.
I'm going to take a long shot and guess that, in this case, the obvious credibility of the Saudi story will lead to a resumption of 'business as usual'.
If it's true that Erdogan has consciously planned to use the incident to embarrass Trump and drive a wedge between him and the Saudis, you have to admire that kind of cunning.
It's difficult to believe there wasn't a death sentence on Kashoggi and of course this is done by beheading 🙁
If it’s true that Erdogan has consciously planned to use the incident to embarrass Trump and drive a wedge between him and the Saudis, you have to admire that kind of cunning
I would have to agree. There are some truly shocking things happen all the time in the world and if this was just newspapers trying to keep the story alive it would be petering out by now.
It's win win for Erdogan, he gets to feign outrage at the killing of a journalist (when he has disappeared plenty of his own dissidents)
Plus he gets to damage MBS, who he hates & Trump, who hes hated ever since the Muslin ban & especialy after forcing him to release that pastor that saw the Americans squeezing the Lira & taking turkey close to an economic crisis.
Meanwhile if this is true (& turkey apparently have surveillance of the Saudi embassy pretty well covered) & they release a recording of this phone call, MBS (& Trump/Kushner) in more trouble.
https://twitter.com/JohnSimpsonNews/status/1054129090675068928?s=19
We are heading for a new world record in the number of times an official version of events can change.
Making the GRU look like a bunch of professionals.
Relevant joke:
Turkish prisoner to prison librarian: "Have you got this book?"
Librarian: "No, but we've got the author"
he gets to feign outrage at the killing of a journalist
I am not sure it is feigned. At least one report said the two were acquainted and even without that I would guess any self respecting dictator wants to be the only one abducting and murdering dissidents in their own country.
I was quite surprised when I realised how much Levantine Arabs (Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Jordan) hate Gulf Arabs, especially Emiratis and Saudis. It all goes back to before oil,
Indeed. All the way back to the death of the original god-bothering paedophile and the argument about who would succeed him as heading up the stupid superstition. Sunnis hate Shias and Shias hate Sunnis. Same old dreary reason for conflict all about absolutely nothing.
Religion.
some choice for the "rogue" hit squad, beheading or life in a turkish jail (wonder how much has changed since midnight exress ? )
Sunnis hate Shias and Shias hate Sunnis
It all started going wrong for Sunni and Shi-ah after the release of their fifth album ‘All I ever need is you’ in 1971.
A lot of people seem to be saying "Turkey are also total shitbags and they are playing it for their advantage". And of course they are. But the thing is, Saudi are the shitbags that can do no wrong, that we arm and empower and allow to sponsor terrorism. It's not about a Turkey vs Saudi shitbagularity contest, it's about what we do with relation to either, and both.
How crap are the Saudi secret service though? Having to 1, buy a saw right before murdering somebody and 2, having a disguise that was purchased from a fancy dress store. Where did they train, chuckle vision?
Even worse than the Salisbury Russian !
Yeah, but Ankara has a lovely clock tower.
It’s not about a Turkey vs Saudi shitbagularity contest, it’s about what we do with relation to either, and both.
If we stopped dealing with nations that are shitbags or ones that don’t abduct or imprison without trial the list is pretty short and we recently told most of them to F off...
this type of thing happens all the time. Journalists critical of authoritarian regime gets murdered. What is so special about this guy. I can understand from his bio and experience why he upset the Saudi royal family but not so sure about all the international outrage compared to the Russians murdering some people in the UK.
What is the expected gain for anyone? The regime won’t suddenly become tolerant and western. If the West pushes Saudi closer to Russia or China is that beneficial?
turkey just keeps drip-feeding leaks to keep this in the news & undermine any statement the Saudis make
https://twitter.com/ragipsoylu/status/1054438586840506368
What is so special about this guy. I can understand from his bio and experience why he upset the Saudi royal family but not so sure about all the international outrage compared to the Russians murdering some people in the UK.
differences:
Russia:
we impose sanctions
we expel their diplomats
we don't sell them weapons
we start cracking down on the oligarchs in London
USA passes a new law to sanction them
Prince William might not have gone to the world cup
etc
Iran:
They get put on THE AXIS OF EVIL
Sanctioned out the wazoo
we arm all their neighbours
etc
Saudi Arabia:
we don't sanction them
we supply all the weapons they can eat
we invite them for official visits to meet the queen
we kiss their arses all over town
there are loads of shitbaggy countries yes, and frankly I doubt Putin is going to be quaking in his boots at our terrifying sanctions. But part of the British / USA / Western self-mythologising is that we don't ally ourselves with the type of people who (publicly) do this type of thing.
Personally I think Saudi Arabia can get in the sea, but we still need to condemn this shit.
It all started going wrong for Sunni and Shi-ah after the release of their fifth album ‘All I ever need is you’ in 1971.
Oh, well done sir! Took me a second or two, though! 👏🏻🤣
Saudi Arabia:
we don’t sanction them
we supply all the weapons they can eat
we invite them for official visits to meet the queen
we kiss their arses all over town
We we have a pretty shocking history in the Middle East. The Saudis haven’t changed what they have been doing for generations yet we have been friendly to them. We don’t really need to as oil is plentiful recently, we have military bases nearby but not in the country, we sell them some stuff but have to pay huge bribes..
Government is about continuing the country which involves dealing which undesirables. while the moral aspect is right and I think most people would agree on a personal level, if fuel jumps in price convictions fall away pretty fast.
Turkey are using this to influence the war in Yemen. I just struggle to see what the desired outcome is for the USA/UK. we are on the side (providing logistics and equipment) of the Saudis in Yemen...
Are we just looking to be seen as moral before we go back to business as usual?
We are reacting, that is all, I'm 100% certain that UK gov want it all to blow over asap so we can continue selling them weapons, with a clean conscience 🙄
Erdogan is using this for maximum leverage
And he is extracting maximum revenge on Trump for the currency war
https://twitter.com/mck_beth/status/1054645724380569601?s=19
One of those situations where you know someone is lying to you, and they know that you know that they are lying to you, but you both nod and smile at each other . . . .
OK, this instance might seem to be "complimentary-bullshitting"on a grand scale, but in relation to the amount of power held by the people involved, it's not really. We're talking about people who can "make people disappear" any day of the week . . .and probably have done.
I am sure the Saudi don't lie to Trump. They know that he can't do nothing about it.