Sarah Moulds

Compare & contrast:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tyne-24650261

A Newcastle United fan who punched a police horse when trouble flared following his side's defeat to Sunderland has been jailed for a year...
(The horse) was not hurt in the attack.

Not condoning the above in the slightest, just comparing someone refusing to move for the police, then having a horse directed towards them, punching it in the heat of the moment (utterly in the wrong, obvs), but gets sent down, to someone repeatedly punching and kicking a horse as punishment.
It's a head-scratcher for me, for sure.

I think it's a bit like shouting at children when they've done something to frighten us.

We know that it's not the best way of dealing with things in the long run, but in the moment we do it anyway, because we're frightened and human and we're not thinking straight.

There's a big difference between it being an established pattern of behaviour or something that only happens occasionally. There's also a difference between doing something that only causes temporary harm and something that causes more long-lasting damage.

In this case, it wasn't the ideal solution, but when you've got a horse that may be on the point of going out of control, in an area where it could easily injure itself or other people, I don't really blame a person for over-reacting if it's not something that they do regularly.

Shouting and punching / kicking are two very different things. Plus she claims not to have over-reacted and is using the argument that this was completely rational and normal behaviour to teach the horse a lesson.

Then why was the horse placed in that situation in the first place? That would be the owner's responsibility to make sure it's able to cope and remain under control at all times. Regaining composure by beating it may have prevented a nasty incident, but how can that be accepted as fair enough with no comeback?

this was completely rational and normal behaviour to teach the horse a lesson.

At least some horsey people would agree with her. I'm not one, but I know a few who are, and they do.

My point about shouting is that it's not an ideal solution to the problem, but is a solution.

Then why was the horse placed in that situation in the first place? That would be the owner’s responsibility to make sure it’s able to cope and remain under control at all times.

Animals are unpredictable, even if well-trained. "Dangerous at both ends and crafty in the middle."

By that measure we'd never let a dog off the lead, and never transport a horse out of the paddock.

Yep, and there's a strong argument that should be the norm.
Point is, she kicked and punched a horse, and that's OK then.

Good luck with that.

Ain't that the truth. You'd get more joy allowing cyclists on pavements before that happened.

Point is, she kicked and punched a horse, and thats OK then.

Not what OP asked.

OP asked why she could have been found not guilty of animal cruelty, not whether we're ok with what happened.

You’d get more joy allowing cyclists on pavements before that happened.

Isn't that de-facto what's happened anyway?

Yep, the OP asked why they weren't found guilty, and my comment refers to society deeming it OK, by virtue of the legal system clearing her.
Not saying you or anyone here thinks it's cool to attack animals.

Speaking to someone I know well, who absolutely loves animals and would never harm one, who has owned horses in the past, and has lots of experience:

"Sometimes there's nothing else you can do."

She told the court her life had been "torn to pieces" by the case, having lost her job as a teacher, and that she had received death threats.

Torn to pieces - a little like the foxes the hunt she is part of 'accidentally' come across from time to time. I'm not sure I'm best placed to discuss this simply because the very fact she is a member of a hunt gives me a very fixed opinion of her attitude towards other animals on the planet we share that not doubt preducises my opinion of her in this case.

What I would say is that, I can ride but don't any more. I have been around horses a good amount as my sister worked with them for some time. I have never and would never have resorted to kicking a horse, especially in a situation where the balance of power between me and the horse was unequal and they had no means of escape as I was holding the reigns. But this was not some sort of neglectful deviant long term abuser.

Limited in what I can say but her leaving her professional role was not considered a bad thing by others and this event might have been in keeping with a personality not altogether appreciated.

MY guess is the magistrate/ judge was a hunting sympathiser

She should have been found guilty.

The fact that she is a member of a local 'hunt' means that she probably knows some influential people (some are hunters too) and that has provided her with access to leniency that she does not deserve.

Anyone who strikes an animal, for whatever reason, should get a slap back.

I'm glad it has impacted her personal life and long may it continue to do so.

She strikes me as one of those 'hateful and entitled' people :o(

MY guess is the magistrate/ judge was a hunting sympathiser

Maybe. But there was a jury in this case.

Never been one since my job has always exempted me but one assumes the jury are going to be heavily swayed by how the judge sums up the case.

The fact she's part of a hunt makes me think she's a bit of a wrong un.

The judges summing up can make a lot of differnce.  I have nothing to back that up tho apart from a long standing pattern of Hunters getting off in the face of evidence

She did find a vet who supported her in that no harm was done.  Probably muddied the waters enough

There are vets around that sympathise with the hunting brigade and some that even participate. One of my nurses does, which has always confused me greatly, even though I do get the irony that I’m not a vegetarian and therefore cannot really judge according to some.

Being an active member of a hunt notorious for its behaviour doesn't exactly set you up to be an ideal guardian of other animals.

She lost her temper and struck out at a horse, which at that point was fully in her control, not once, but repeatedly over several seconds. The video speaks for itself.

One thing of note is that the attack may only have ended at that point because the filming sab started shouting, and she realised she was on camera.

If it was another human she was pummelling, it would have been an obvious conviction, but the threshold for proving 'unnecessary cruelty' to animals is, sadly, higher.

Plus she's clearly good at putting on the victim act, judging by her post-court comments, and is posh and nicely-spoken, so it probably wasn't difficult for the jury to shy away from convicting her.

Wouldn't want my kid in her primary class though, if she's got that short a fuse, so probably for the best that she's been turfed out of that job.

Violent scumbag.

even though I do get the irony that I’m not a vegetarian and therefore cannot really judge according to some.

That argument works for deer stalking and grouse shooting. It doesn't for hunting foxes with horses.  Fox hunting is not about utility at all.  its about sadism.  fox hunting is deliberately cruel.

Agreed, although they argue that it is somehow required in order for the countryside to survive.
Look into how Foxhounds are looked after and how they deal with ill or wounded animals and you get a good idea of how these people view and treat animals in general.

fox hunts feed foxes, provide artificial earths etc

they also know where the natural earths are which is how they are able to dig out or block up entrances.  they could just shoot these known foxes.  without a population of foxes there is no fox hunting so hunts ensure there is a good supply of foxes

the hounds are also bred to be very little faster than foxes to ensure a exciting chase

the unspeakable in pursuit of the inedible

Hoof in the slats?

I'm a bit confused by this.

I'm assuming that the Newcastle Police horse case is different because it was a Police horse? In the same way that assaulting a member of the emergency services is different to assaulting a commoner like me.

The particular case obviously depends on the specific wording of the law she is supposed to have broken, and I'd love to see someone like the Secret Barrister explain it rather than an internet based barrack room lawyer.

I'm not a horse person so I have no idea if that level of force is "normal" or acceptable with a horse - I hope it isn't. But also as a non-horsey person I don't know what the "correct" alternative to make a horse do what you need it to do.

I think she raises an issue that should be up for open discussion - how do you undo the damage of social media "pressure" if you are not legally guilty of a crime? I'm doubtful this incident was the sole reason for her losing her job, but if that claim is true, that should concern all of us - if you or I got sacked based on some sort of cycling related incident that got a lot of coverage on social media, but were then found not guilty, I'd be pretty pissed off, to say the least. Taking rights - or in this case jobs - away from people we don't like is all well and good until the exact same thing comes round and bites us on our own arse.

I'm not sure at what point the footage was put on social media, but there's a reason that the Police don't like it to happen until legal action is finalised, and in my opinion (yours may vary) this demonstrates why.

the horse was clearly under control when she did it.  She had clearly lost her temper.  the horse will not be able to put the kicking and punching in the context of its behaviour a short while before

I’m doubtful this incident was the sole reason for her losing her job, but if that claim is true, that should concern all of us – if you or I got sacked based on some sort of cycling related incident that got a lot of coverage on social media, but were then found not guilty, I’d be pretty pissed off, to say the least.

Read between the lines of my previous post....

Shame the horse didn’t rear up and hoof her in the face, wipe that smug grin away for good

Stressing again that I'm not supporting her behaviour but as a non-horsey type

the horse was clearly under control when she did it.

She had literally just grabbed the halter, so only just, but that doesn't excuse her actions

She had clearly lost her temper.

Clearly

the horse will not be able to put the kicking and punching in the context of its behaviour a short while before

I'm not a horse psychologist and neither are you.

I’m not sure what hoof in the slats means but I wouldn’t have blamed the horse for doing something like what I assume it means…

As tjagain said the horse was under control and very calm when she went on the offensive. Even if it wasn’t, it doesn’t have the cognitive power to understand physical punishment and relate it to previous or even current behaviour, which is why physical punishment is almost never recommended to train animals. It’s not to do with psychology it’s about the brains of animals. In fairness it pretty much applies to humans too.

It’s a head-scratcher for me, for sure.

Posh folk looking after their own. Welcome to Britain.

From a different perspective - I'm from a horse background - I rode when i was a kid and all my family and extended family are in the horse world (professionally and for pleasure).

On a scale of punishment and harm that would barely register to the horse. They are big strong animals. She was stupid to do it though and it seemed more for her own 'got to show them who's boss' mentality than any other purpose.

Horses aren't like dogs or other animals to train - some are great to deal with and respond to kindness, some are absolute ruddy psychos though and will try and kill you. They don't respond to a careful talk in the ear and a stroke on the nose. Some do need brute force to handle.

But there's a big difference between brute force and cruelty. Some of the worst cruelty I've seen are from those who 'love their horse to death' but never go near them, never ride them and just treat them as a pet. Just chucked out in fields and looked in on once a week if they are lucky.

Posh folk looking after their own. Welcome to Britain.

Maybe. But there was a jury in this case

The court transcript would be interesting reading

some are absolute ruddy psychos though and will try and kill you.

probably because they don’t want you riding them. at a guess.

Hmm interesting. Madame owns a horse, we both ride and spend quite a lot of time with (French) horsey folk.

Not a productive way to treat a horse: definitely.

Temper tantrum: yup

Injury to horse: no

Anywhere near the level of violence horses get up to when in a field together: absolutely not

Jury verdict: I agree.

If that was worth prosecuting it raises a lot of questions about what you can do with a horse:

Ride a horse over jumps - we put neoprene protections on the legs but even so taking a bale down hurts the horse's leg a lot more than a kick.

Put a new horse in a field with horses that already know each other - within 24h the new horse will be covered in bleeding bites and kick marks - a few of the other horses too as the horse finds its place in the herd. However horses love company and are miserable when not in a herd so it's crueler not to let them get bitten and kicked than not put them in the field.

She wasn't puching the horses nose IMO, she was doing what is normal in some circustances but not in that situation. If a horse bites you you give its nose a clout, instantly, once, hard; it has to learn not to bite you. If the riders reaction isn't instant it's pointless because the horse won't understand what the retribution is for - it's mimicking horse behaviour.When teaching it the distance it has to keep from you it gets a tap/push when it gets too close till it learns. There's the carrot and the stick, both have their place.

So my verdict, the horse was just doing what horses do, the woman had a silly tantrum which pedagoically was counterproductive, but certainly not cruelty at a level worth prosecuting.

Edit: our horse gave me a kick that put me in hospital for a week but neither me nor madame punished the horse. The kick was accidental, just a case of my ankle and his hoof being in the same place at the same time. However a bitey pony I used to ride learned not to bite me - he still bit Madame's bum though.

probably because they don’t want you riding them. at a guess.

Which shows your lack of understanding of horses and their nature.

Old money

Tried in court; not guilty.
The end.

Lost her job as well.  such a shame

Tried in court; not guilty.
The end.

OJ Simpson found innocent.
The end.

Whilst it might not be found to have been provable beyond reasonable doubt it is perfectly reasonable for someone watching the video to think her behaviour is substandard.
Perhaps the cottesmore hunt might reflect on how it is "laying" trails to ensure the horses are begin and finish in a safe location. Should be easy enough if they arent faking it.

On only (relatively) rare occurences, juries get it wrong.

Losing a job due to unproven accusations and allegations shouldn't happen but several posters seem to think it's acceptable.

Let's subject *you* to an unproven accusation or allegation which contributes to you losing your job

Are you relaxed about that?

I have no real problem with hunting; hare coursing is very different.

Let’s subject *you* to an unproven accusation or allegation which contributes to you losing your job

Ok lets go for it. Just to check though is it a video of me doing something (lets ignore deep fakes) or just your word?

I have no real problem with hunting; hare coursing is very different.

Really, why?

You have no real problem with hunting?  its deliberately cruel and has zero utility.  the intent is to chase a fox to exhaustion then have it torn apart by dogs. Its just an exercise in sadism. Hunts ensure a good supply of foxes for killing by feeding them and creating artificial earths for them.  they could easily reduce the population of foxes if they wanted as they know where the natural earths are

would you want someone who behaved like that teaching children?  I wouldn't - and if I had behaved like that I would very probably have lost my job.

Losing a job due to unproven accusations and allegations shouldn’t happen but several posters seem to think it’s acceptable.

Hardly unproven accusations and allegations. The video evidence is clear to see, the horse was under control and she chose to attack it. She should not have been cleared of that for any reason so the fact she lost her job goes some way to make up for that as a form of justice where the courts have clearly failed.

Or, to put it another way, it's not an unproven accusation or allegation that she hit and kicked the horse - this was incontrovertibly shown on the video. It was however not proven that this was a criminal act.

thecaptain - agree - obviously there is no discussion about what she did. Agreeing or disagreeing with hunting is another matter, and I think anyone who feels it’s fine to be abused online and to lose a job in an unrelated field is out of order.

Are the hunting brigade mostly an entitled bunch of bellends that protect their own and look down on the rest of us? Almost certainly, which is what I think raises questions in this case as to whether it was a fair and impartial trial.

I think anyone who feels it’s fine to be abused online and to lose a job in an unrelated field is out of order.

Many professions have a set of standards of behaviour that need to be adhered to to keep your job

If I had done what she had done I would probably have been in disciplinary trouble at work

Her behaviour has been acceptable to a majority of equine vets in bygone decades because it supposedly mimics the dam chastising her foal. I'm not a horsey-person but it doesn't seem to be necessary; the RSPCA and more modern vets agree

Some of you may remember a royal televised kicking a horse in the late 70s/early 80s. I can't remember who it was but Not The Nine O Clock News satirised it at the time and that person was vilified even then, but not prosecuted

As far as sacking is concerned that's a matter for the education authority, but you don't need a conviction to read the room and the video

I certainly would but then I am a vet!

Old money

Jealousy.

When we arrived in France we had a cycle touring bike each and 50 000 francs (so about £5 000 at the time) made from teaching to start a business with the initial rent payment on premises taking most of that. All the people we ride with are regular people with day jobs - working on the checkout at Lidl isn't old money. Even the ferme équestre where we keep the horse is new money, owned by a guy who did a load of different day jobs to make the money.

In Wales my colleague bought a horse for his step daughter. Madame rode a borrowed horse which is quite common in the UK. Look after it and you can ride it.

The common factor in all the people I know who ride is a passion for horses. I enjoy walking, running, mtbing and riding a horse along the same trails - same environment, different ways of enjoying it.

MTBers lose their rag and abuse animals too - see how they deal with errant dogs on such threads. Perhaps I should start to take more interest in trail dog threads and threads where people are leaving their dogs alone in the house while at work. But live and let live eh, besides the animals humans are cruelest to IME are their fellow humans.

Jealousy

Not sure about the jealousy comment but everyone is entitled to an opinion! Yes plenty of people ride horses without being idiots or particularly well off. Not sure many of them dress up and go on fox hunts though.
I think on balance that she is guilty of being an unpleasant person but that it stopped short of criminal behaviour. Not guilty doesn’t mean blameless, although that is how she is spinning it now. She would have been better advised to keep quiet rather than stoke the fire I would think.

"Jealousy" was a direct reply to "old money", I think that's clear, it's quoted. It's at the bottom of the previous page, a two-word post from petrolhead-rejoice-in-CO2-emissions rustynissanprairie. 🙂 If people were really interested in animal welfare they're stop oil first and worry about a silly tantrum second.

You know how many animals have died in drought or forest fires this year, and it's our fault. It's been over 40°C for far longer periods than usual in this part of the world, both animals and humans are suffering and dying (30 excess deaths in July, no doubt more this month in Provence-Alpes-Côtes d’Azur).

Perspective man, perspective.

If you're really worried about animal welfare do your bit and stop using fossil fuels.

The video suggests she has a bit of an anger management problem. Whether that makes her compatible with a job in primary education is a matter for her employer. Perhaps there are other factors which have influenced their decision, we don't know. If she feels hard done by, she is welcome to challenge that decision at a tribunal.

The failure to convict is simply because the laws covering assaults on animals are framed differently to those dealing with assaults on humans. We've moved on from being able to beat your kids in public (or private), hopefully the law regarding animal welfare will catch up at some point.

"moved on" -nope

888 women killed by their spouse in the last 10 years in the UK, a child a week killed, only one in how many rapes prosecuted? How many parents convicted of child abuse compared to abuse cases?

I'd argue we've move on much further in terms of animal protection and welfare than we have in human safety and welfare.

The outrage of some on this thread is proof enough.

Yes plenty of people ride horses without being idiots or particularly well off. Not sure many of them dress up and go on fox hunts though.

The vast majority of riders don't ride with hunts. And the vast majority who do ride with hunts don't got for the hunting. They go for an exciting ride in the countryside on terrain and land they'd not normally be able to ride. The ones who 'hunt' to actually kill foxes are the minority. Hunts are also in decline because riders don't want to be associated with them.

We are of course forgetting that hunting with hounds has been illegal for nearly 2 decades now. But I'm not blind to the fact there are elements in the scene that bend the rules to suit their aims. IMO they should now ban riding with packs of dogs to remove the grey areas being exploited. There are other ways now to enjoy riding in the countryside without the hunt element. My wife does endurance rides which are often over land they'd not normally have access too.

Fox control should be done by licensed marksmen only.

If it makes people responsible for animals think hard about their lifestyle choices and duties, then it's a good thing.

I've no jealousy to people who own horses or their class but in this instance
hunting = old money = entitlement = it's my horse I'll punch it if I want to.

petrolhead-rejoice-in-CO2-emissions rustynissanprairie

Petrolhead?😂 19 year old Volvo and a 19year old Berlingo!

Which are both, filthy ICE cars, greenhousing the planet and making it uninhabitable for animals and ultimately humans, or did you miss that thread?

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/petrolhead

You're all over petrolhead threads on here. 🙂

Well that went random quickly!

I have an electric car so does that mean I can say what I like?

You're a vet, andylc, so have more credibility on this thread than some who have never been near a horse.

The electric car is probably essential to your job and if you really need a car and EV is as good as you'll get. I have no idea how polluting the rest of your lifestyle is in terms of air miles, gas consumption, eating habits etc. .

Our respective carbon footprints are not really relevant to whether it’s OK to kick a horse.

Back on subject I do think it’s a bad precedent that her defence rests on the claim that her behaviour was reasonable, normal and appropriate to the situation, which presumably the jury agreed with.

I have an electric car so does that mean I can say what I like?

Probably some human rights abuses and environmental damage involved in the extraction of the lithium for your car batteries, so if we're going full whataboutery, your right to have an opinion is as dubious as the rest of us.

Indeed!

Wasn’t sure where the discussion would go but I certainly didn’t expect it to end in a discussion about what sort of car people drive!!

You're way off track. I like to repair and reuse items/cars as long as possible and Im an engineer so have a love of all things mechanical/electrical

Anyway back to punching horses, case law has been set so I'm off out to go **** a horse in its face.

The defence isn't the only thing the jury takes into considereation. My reasoning was:

The kick: if that's not allowed then imposing a similar impact on a horses leg wahtever the cause should also be banned: horse jumping, cross country, trek, jumping obstacles whilst out in the country - objectively all impact  horses' legs more.

The slaps: you can forget trying to train many horses at all if that level of impact/force isn't allowed.

Maybe the jury just objectively thought about the wider implications a guilty verdict would produce in terms of case law and whether a non-harmful level of kicking/slapping warranted a conviction. As a juror I wouldn't have taken much notice of the defense arguments because well, defense arguments are often laughable. However I'd have thought very hard about the implications of the case and whether the prosectution arguments were valid. It's the prosectution case that wasn't convincing to me.

Mouldo just pawn in game of life.

But I’m not blind to the fact there are elements in the scene that bend the rules to suit their aims.

Its not just some elements.  Its every hunting pack and all the folk who ride with them.  Its a huge criminal conspiracy driven by blood lust

Not forgetting of course that hunting of any mammals with hounds has been illegal for nearly 20 years now and the various hunts across the country hardly even bother pretending that they are not doing it. Those that could do something about turn a blind eye, for likely similar reasons to the outcome of this case.

The slaps: you can forget trying to train many horses at all if that level of impact/force isn’t allowed.

Withdrawal of horse pudding and 10 mins in the naughty stable no good?

Not sure how many times this can be said but the only possible justification for this sort of behaviour, which clearly freaked the horse out, is an immediate response to bad behaviour. Same principle behind an electric fence - the response is immediate and the abnormal can associate touching the fence with pain.
Kicking and slapping the horse as it calmly stands there teaches it nothing but to distrust and fear the person doing it.

Sorry predictive text changed animal to abnormal…!

Withdrawal of horse pudding (apples and supplements) would mean not being able to reward behaviour you're trying to achieve. The horse wouldn't understand why pudding was being removed and just get annoyed if other horses were still getting it.We don't reward our horses with food with other horses present unless all the horses are being rewarded by their owners at the same time. When we used to have two horses in a field we put out two lots of hay so the dominant horse couldn't stop the other one getting any. In the current herd in the field the dominant horses get to eat the hay first and then have to be put in a naughty stable/field with no food because they've got too fat.

The naughty stable/field is mainly for horses that are a problem with other horses rather than humans. Some horses are such bullies and do so much damage to other horses that they end up in a naughty stable/field. But then there's the horse police/vilgilantes who gang up on horses with bad behaviour and kick shit out of them so they end up on their own even if they're in the same field. Horses have mates, it's a bit like an MTB club ride, not everyone gets on but the group as a whole functions. Or this forum even.

An unarmed human versus a horse is an unequal fight so if there's an untrained horse in a confined space where it can't use its flight instinct take great care. In fact if there's a horse in a confined space take care.

The horse in that vid looked well-trained, human friendly and pretty submissive as horses go. There was absolutely no problem getting it in the horse box and it remained submissive when being unfairly reprimanded. A level of cooperation that suggests it has been generally been well-treated and trained even if on this occasion the human did nothing to improve the horse/human relationship. I'd happily saddle it up and gallop off on it.

Kicking and slapping the horse as it calmly stands there teaches it nothing but to distrust and fear the person doing it.

I'm with the horse in that respect. Not sure I'd trust her behind the wheel of a Range Rover, for example.

It was however not proven that this was a criminal act.

Yes, clearly - hence the verdict. However, due to the ability to actually see what happened I don't I need it to be a proven criminal act for me to be happy that some justice was done to the horrible person.