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Can't prove Russian interference if you don't even investigate it. Got to admit I never had that one on my bingo card
Could probably go in a few other threads but this one may have legs
Don't ask a question you don't want the answer to. Pretty obvious stuff but somehow I'm still disappointed.
From Gardian:
Q: Why do you think that the government does not want to investigate this?
Stewart Hosie says it is not because the intelligence agencies cannot do the job.
Dont make me laughski. A radionuclide assassination and a WMD grade chemical weapons attack on UK soil? MI5 couldn't find their own arse with both hands tied behind their back.
You beat me to a thread on the topic but I'll post my opener here in the hope of reasonable debate.
.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53484344
So the Russian state has been meddling in UK affairs, not really news and it looks like most of the juicy stuff is to be redacted, shame.
My question is though… Why? Why would Russia be meddling in UK political affairs? What does it stand to gain.. usually things are about money, follow the money.. so who or what organisation has interests in destabilising the UK? Do they have shares in Wetherspoons.. and if it isn’t about money, what is it about? Does it mean Putin has plans on marching across €urope as it does seem overly aggressive for another nation state to be meddling in the affairs of another.. We don’t meddle in the other nation’s affairs (afaik) .. Why doesn’t Putin and the Russian state just focus on making the best lives for their own citizens … I just don’t get it. Please enlighten me!?
A radionuclide assassination and a WMD grade chemical weapons attack on UK soil? MI5 couldn’t find their own arse with both hands tied behind their back.
Investigation and prevention are very different things.
My question is though… Why? Why would Russia be meddling in UK political affairs?
Because the UK has wielded some influence in world politics as well as being a US lapdog and a unified Europe is perceived as a threat to Russia and destabilising both of these can be achieved through meddling in UK matters and sowing the seeds of dissension and political turmoil. My guess anyway. Also who has profited in the UK, post brexit and GE, those who look after oligarchs and launder their money.
My question is though… Why? Why would Russia be meddling in UK political affairs?
I would imagine they would like to see the end of the EU as would the yanks (probably)
My question is though… Why? Why would Russia be meddling in UK political affairs?
The answer to that is at the start of the report, they see any harm to the West as a positive for them.
Dead cat dropped on table and kicked in to the long grass
MI5 couldn’t find their own arse with both hands tied behind their back.
Isnt the report saying that they couldnt carry out this sort of investigation without specific authorisation.
What is the purpose of the intelligence agencies if not to investigate stuff like this? Does this not mean they were almost certainly told not to?
The whole thing stinks to high heaven but they'll get away with it, as usual.
What is the purpose of the intelligence agencies if not to investigate stuff like this? Does this not mean they were almost certainly told not to?
That's exactly what it means, yes.
It looks like the government were fully aware that a foreign power was interfering with our political system, but as the outcomes that they both desired - Brexit, the undermining of the EU, and the re-election of a gang of incompetent, anti-EU buffoons - were broadly the same, they turned a blind eye and let them crack on with it
I just wonder if the donations of millions of pounds to the Tory party from Russian oligarchs could have anything to do with this? Seems unlikely to have had any impact I know.
Do they have shares in Wetherspoons.. and if it isn’t about money, what is it about?
Flipancy aside there's a lot of money to be made just in screwing things up - if you had a few 100 billion rubles you wanted to make a lot of money with in no particular hurry, you could have done worse than buying into gbp on the 24th of June 2016.
A pump and dump of gbp by manipulation of poll data in the week running up? Yeah that would work.
There's no money to be made in stability.
Politically at the simplistic end a weak opposition is better than a strong one (amd don't forget its not just the UK being targeted) but its more a chess game than that, will joining a weakened EU be so attractive to Ukraine for instance, through to the fact certain outcomes will favour certain governments who will be more or less friendly to Moscow etc.
So what was the point of this report?
I thought either Hosie or Jones said that only MI5 had authority to start an investigation on a self-directed basis; other organisations must be instructed by gov.
I may have mis-heard.
Predictably, the hard of thinking are making their voices heard - nothing to see here, biased presentation by Hosie and Jones appear to be the common refrains.
About time the finger was pointed at the House of Lords with members having links to Russian businesses and oligarchs.
Isnt the report saying that they couldnt carry out this sort of investigation without specific authorisation.
It seems to suggest that, but I don't think MI5 has demonstrated they could do it, even if they had been "let off the leash".
TBH some of this falls under MI6's remit, doesn't it? - They do the spying - WTF have they been doing since 1989? **** about "not" doing commercial espionage?
If a foreign agency gets to deploy its "non-military" (or military) "payload" on the UK, it effectively means MI6, MI5 and by extension, 5eyes, has failed. It's my understanding that it's the UK's policy never to allow casualties even when preventing casualties might revel security sources.
"Total surprise! First thing we knew about it was when the Kaiser was **** on Nelson's Column!", etc.
What is the purpose of the intelligence agencies if not to investigate stuff like this?
Or that after their fun in the 60-70s that they have decided they shouldnt get involved in politics without specific orders to do so. Seems somewhat flawed but is sort of understandable.
So what was the point of this report?
To point out the failings of the government and, more importantly, to give recommendations on how to fix it.
To point out the failings of the government and, more importantly, to give recommendations on how to fix it.
Well, we know the govt will deny having any failings, and will certainly do nothing to fix them, so bugger all result.
Why would Russia be meddling in UK political affairs?
There are a number of reasons:
1. Brexit. The whole Brexit project sows division within and then divides, the hugely powerful economic block that borders them, that they are actively hostile towards.
2. London is already the number one destination for Oligarchs to launder their blood-soaked cash, no questions asked. Brexit will usher in further deregulation of the financial services sector which will make this even easier
Brexit is a win/win/win for the Russians. They want to ensure its completion, the harder the better, so have supported the leave campaign and subsequant election of a hardline Brexiteer regime in Cummings and Johnson and their anti-EU nodding dogs
piha - that one has been well publicised; Lords connections haven't.
Yes, Russia is after a weaker EU (and a weaker NATO). The EU is one of the few organisations or nations that could stand up to Russia, now that Trump is in Putin's pocket. I think longer term Russia wants a return to its sphere of influence in Eastern Europe and the former Soviet republics - see what they're doing in Ukraine and Georgia. The fall of communism was a national humiliation for Russia and Putin wants to go down as the man who revived Russia's status. The Brexit vote was crucial for Russian interests.
To point out the failings of the government and, more importantly, to give recommendations on how to fix it.
Well, we know the govt will deny having any failings, and will certainly do nothing to fix them, so bugger all result.
In fairness a lot of that will be in the redacted stuff you and I rightly can't see, mainly the publication of almost any enquiry is about being able to say, "we did something".
In this case I'd posit the purpose is to identify if there's desire to influence the outcomes, the means by which it might* have been done, the level of control we have over those means, the manner in which you counter them and our capability to do so.
There is no opportunity to fix what's already gone wrong at this point, no matter what the outcome of any such investigation, even if it were proven that the actual result in the referendum was manipulated, there isn't going to be a rerun. The only purpose of this enquiry and subsequent report is to figure out how to stop it in future and that absolutely necessitates staying away from partisan mud flinging.**
The Brexit vote was crucial for Russian interests.
I don't disagree but this statement [often] seems to come with the presupposition that the EU without a strong, loud, "veto" welding UK voice in it is weaker than one with. (that's a bit of a sweeping generalisation and I may be doing you a disservice there)
*I'd go so far as might is really more important than was.
**brexit is a distraction#, its absolutely in danger of turning the whole thing into this. Moscow having simply being seen to have maybe possibly once upon a time considered tinkering in that most acrimonious of UK internal debates does a great job of sowing a lot of discord and largely derails the debate that should be happening about interference. They don't have to have actually done anything to achieve the goal of more division and polarisation and weakening of gov uk beyond hint to the left leaning press they might and bingo. (in the US you might hint to the right you had tried to influence gun reform etc, you don't need to do any actual faffing.)
#what the benefit of certain outcomes in that vote were is important but its very difficult to have any sort of unbiased debate about it.
Anyone reminded of Trump saying less tests equal less covid?
...but 2% pay rise for public sector workers. Nothing to see here. Move along.
but this statement [often] seems to come with the presupposition that the EU without a strong, loud, “veto” welding UK voice in it is weaker than one with
There is no over-arching Russian plan beyond nihilism. Putin makes some assumptions/decisions (they don't even have to be validated) such as "An isolated UK is weaker" and the program to try to influence that happens. It doesn't even matter overly much if the program is successful or not. The end point of Russian Interference program is Russian interference.
EDIT: Russia isn't a state in the traditional sense of the word, it doesn't have a Foreign Policy beyond a couple of narrow aims: Gaslighting the rest of the word into believing that it is a State in the traditional sense, and ensuring that a very select number of Russian individuals remain 1. In power, and 2. extraordinarily wealthy. It's pretty much what a country who's government is the Mafia would look like.
We don’t meddle in the other nation’s affairs (afaik)
Yeah we do. Whether it's by overt (e.g. British Council) or covert means, we've got our fingers in all manner of pies.
Paton, for the Nth time, make a contribution, don't just post random links.
Utterly pointless.
As to what Russia have to gain,
https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1285531730988892161
"Equally, the spreading of disinformation is not necessarily aimed at influencing any individual outcome; it can simply have broad objectives around creating an atmosphere of distrust or otherwise fracturing society."
"Russia’s promotion of disinformation and its attempts at broader political influence overseas have been widely reported.
Examples include ‘bots’ and ‘trolls’: open source studies have identified significant activity on social media;"
This can result in a "general poisoning of the political narrative in the West by fomenting political extremism and ‘wedge issues’, and by the ‘astroturfing’ of Western public opinion; and general discrediting of the West."
"Russia may spread disinformation or seek to influence political events for a wide range of purposes... When people start to say ‘You don’t know what to believe’ or ‘They’re all as bad as each other’,the disinformers are winning."
Paton, for the Nth time, make a contribution, don’t just post random links.
Aside from anything else the link was irrelevant to the discussion so I've removed it.
Putin has been very clear about rebuilding the USSR state and this revanchism is more easily delivered by ensuring EU et als eyes are pointed elsewhere - like internal political upheaval or Syrian refugees fleeing the war there...
Just a thought.
Putin has been very clear about rebuilding the USSR state
Not quite, what Putin wants is a rebuilding of the worldwide power and influence that the USSR used to have. The internal functions of the old soviets are irrelevant. He has no interest in a socialist republican utopia. In fact keeping Russia on the brink of internal collapse suits his needs much more effectively. As bad as any occasional interference programme that we may be the target of, the Russian state and people are daily bombarded with this stuff.
https://twitter.com/i/events/1285496773805436929
A report into possible Russian interference in the UK was published by the Intelligence and Security Committee on Tuesday morning after nearly nine months since its completion. The report found that the UK government failed to address possible Russian interference in various aspects of UK politics, including the 2016 Brexit vote.
(Video on the link)
Brexit is a win/win/win for the Russians. They want to ensure its completion, the harder the better, so have supported the leave campaign and subsequant election of a hardline Brexiteer regime in Cummings and Johnson and their anti-EU nodding dogs
Shouldn't forget the opposition's role in this, particularly Cummings virtual opposite number, Milne.
It's a balance for Russia - where does a significant amount of it's money come from? Selling hydrocarbons to Europe.
Make yourself a troublesome bear and the people will switch away from your key products. And if they become energy independent by developing new tech, they can sell it to other countries so they dont have to use Russian hydrocarbons.
However, at the mo, the Faustian pact between the junkies and the dealer is not changing much.
Shouldn’t forget the opposition’s role in this, particularly Cummings virtual opposite number, Milne.
The opposition 'leadership' was stuffed full of useful idiots during this entire period, not least lifelong Russian apologist Milne and Jeremy ' let's not jump to any hasty conclusions regarding Russia' Corbyn
For a detailed explanation as to why, take a look The Road to Unfreedom by Timothy Snyder, or any of his lectures online.
Snyder explains far better than I can. A rough overview is that the Russia needs to control the narrative that the standard of living in the west (under democracy) is no better, if not worse than the standard of living within Russia. Coupled with a succession issue facing the Russian political system, destabilising the West has become part of a broader war on factuality, invading Crimea whilst denying it and rewriting the Russian constitution to enable Putin to rule for life etc... serve to further Russia's wealthy elite and strengthen their rule.
Time to appoint a foreign interference tsar
foreign interference tsar
I reckon they would want to consider giving the job a different title, though. 😉
Binners and Corroded have beaten me to it with the following replies -
Why would Russia be meddling in UK political affairs?
There are a number of reasons:
1. Brexit. The whole Brexit project sows division within and then divides, the hugely powerful economic block that borders them, that they are actively hostile towards.
2. London is already the number one destination for Oligarchs to launder their blood-soaked cash, no questions asked. Brexit will usher in further deregulation of the financial services sector which will make this even easier
Brexit is a win/win/win for the Russians. They want to ensure its completion, the harder the better, so have supported the leave campaign and subsequant election of a hardline Brexiteer regime in Cummings and Johnson and their anti-EU nodding dogs
Yes, Russia is after a weaker EU (and a weaker NATO). The EU is one of the few organisations or nations that could stand up to Russia, now that Trump is in Putin’s pocket. I think longer term Russia wants a return to its sphere of influence in Eastern Europe and the former Soviet republics – see what they’re doing in Ukraine and Georgia. The fall of communism was a national humiliation for Russia and Putin wants to go down as the man who revived Russia’s status. The Brexit vote was crucial for Russian interests.
I think a lot of people in the UK either don’t know about, or remember, the Cold War - and I guess most don’t appreciate that, to many ordinary Russians, the Cold War is ongoing and the West is the enemy. It suits the leadership to have most of the population believing this of course.
My guess is that Putin worked out years ago that Russia could never compete with the West on military spending, so he’s just come up with more cost effective ways of undermining the West. When one looks at the cost of the latest warplanes or naval vessels, and then at how many key politicians and media barons could be influenced for, say, the cost of a half a dozen fighter aircraft, it’s maybe not a surprise that certain people in government have turned a blind eye. I bet there are some huge bungs of cash, honey traps and all sorts that have gone on.
Another interesting detail that gets conveniently overlooked is the three years that Cumstains spent in Russia ‘setting up an airline’! (....about as f***ing believable as drug dealers who innocently claim to work in ‘import & export’). Oh, and doesn’t Rees-Mogg have millions invested in a Russian bank that he can’t access because of EU sanctions?!
The whole lot stinks of corruption to me.
Watch Hypernormalisation by Adam Curtis on the iPlayer.
Putin's schtick is to sow discord and uncertainty abroad to allow himself to say to the Russian population "it is a volatile, dangerous world out there, I may not be perfect, but you are safer with me in charge". The malleability of the Russian people is a unique hangover from the double-think that was an everyday coping mechanism pre-1991.
My guess is that Putin worked out years ago that Russia could never compete with the West on military spending, so he’s just come up with more cost effective ways of undermining the West.
Absolutely. He saw the crippling economic effects of trying to compete militarily and thus 'conventionally'.
Why bother with all that when, for the price of a couple of hookers to have a slash on Trumpy and a few fake Facebook accounts, you can subvert 'western democracy'?
The depressing thing is it needs stupid people in those 'western democracies' who can be easily conned into voting against their best interests. But here we are....
The depressing thing is it needs stupid people in those ‘western democracies’ who can be easily conned into voting against their best interests. But here we are….
Yup. Perhaps no coincidence that both the US and UK have high levels of adults with poor functional literacy. In the UK, I think we’re living with the old Tory idea of what to do with the proletariat - ‘keep em pissed, and keep em thick’. We live in one of the former Labour stronghold Brexit supporting ex mining areas, and the levels of general ignorance around here are staggering compared to anywhere else I’ve lived. (Our next door neighbour voted for BoJo because she thinks he’s funny.....😒)
Watch Hypernormalisation by Adam Curtis on the iPlayer.
ESSENTIAL VIEWING
We are so f***** and parasitised as a country.
I can't but help think the EU will be better off without us in the long term.
It's ok, the government is going to pass a law so that any foreign agents have to register....
BBC News - Russia report: UK considers tougher security laws after criticism by MPs
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-53489613
It seems that other countries have something like this already, but I'm eager for someone to explain to me why any foreign agents wishing us harm will sign up to register their plan 🤷♂️
Dear Mr Spy, please put your name and address on this list so we know who you are and where you live so we can track and trace you at all time.
Yours
Boris.
Oh the many points of irony...
Please provide details of the intention of your visit
A. To undermine the democratic process
B. Money laundering
C. Poisoning exiled traitors to the Russian state
Report contains a suggestion that the 2014 IndyRef was influenced by Russia. It seems only proper that we annull the result and have an immediate re-run.
Yep, that's the bit. Thanks for posting it. I couldn't be arsed finding it.
It's the flipside of the coin of Trunps corona virus claims. We have more incidents because we test more. We found no evidence when we didn't look for it.
With the Scottish ref which side did Russia interfere for? I remember talk at the time of Russian money but can't remember details. Presumably YES side
Wel salmond did get a job on RT
I'm no defence analyst but I'm sure Putin wouldn't mind UK having to move it's sub bases from Scotland
But brexit far more destabilising for UK & EU in particular,
Presumably YES side
Given Russian intentions; probably funded bots and trolls on both sides of the debate
Joris Bohnson has just stood up at PMQ's and said 'no other country is doing more to combat Russian interference than us'
And now he's banging on about Islington remoaners and taking back control
Absolutely unbelievable. The government is now just trolling us all, aren't they?
tjagain
SubscriberWith the Scottish ref which side did Russia interfere for? I remember talk at the time of Russian money but can’t remember details. Presumably YES side
There was a pretty good article about internet interference at the time, tracking bots and the like, and interestingly they were doing both. Supportive stuff for yes, which seems consistent with Russia's motives, but also tons of conspiracy stuff, spreading of lies, abuse etc- creating division on both sides rather than pushing for one result.