[Closed] Russia at the Olympics?

The ones competing as ROC have been able to demonstrate that they weren't involved in the state sponsored doping that led to the national team's exclusion.

Money has exchanged hands.

I see. Thanks for the explanations.

It still not going down well with some of the other athletes that they are there even under ROC.

Does seem a bit off. "Russia" have been banned so no russian team, no russian anthem, no russian flag. Except there is a team with Russia in its name and the flag is pretty heavily based on the russian flag. By all means let anyone who is proven clean compete but as neutral athletes.

By all means let anyone who is proven clean compete but as neutral athletes

Can’t say I agree with that, if it’s a state sponsored doping regime kick that state and all its athletes out. Might have some chance of effecting change then but this ROC thing is achieving nothing.

Yes, I'm surprised just how many athletes have managed to prove they are clean given how big the doping issue was

Everyone is clean until they get caught...

Have to say i'm for it if they are clean, banning an entire nation is a harsh act, the olympics are the pinnacle, and at every 4 years, a lot of athletes who have trained their entire life for this may have had to miss out whilst in their prime, and their one and only chance to compete for a medal.

Punish those who have been found to have done wrong, be that competitors, coaches, etc, have zero tolerance, stop letting them back in, but also the governing body needs to get their act together in terms of performance enhancing drugs being defined and stated, i felt sorry for that american athlete banned for cannabis, again a young woman who was a favourite to medal.

It's the Olympics, it's corrupt.

Punish those who have been found to have done wrong, be that competitors, coaches, etc,

But it was the Russian state who devised the techniques and rigged the infrastructure to swap samples and frustrate dope testing and then the GRU launch cyber attacks to attack anti doping agencies. If the state is that involved then a few athletes paying a heavy price is tough, imho

https://newsthump.com/2021/08/05/were-allowing-russia-to-compete-after-being-banned-from-the-olympics-because-we-dont-want-murdering-ioc-confirms/

Icarus on Netflix is worth a watch if you want to find out more about the state sponsored doping going on in Russia.

It’s the Olympics, it’s corrupt.

Quite scary how many wrong answers people have posted before someone got the correct one.

the olympics are the pinnacle, and at every 4 years, a lot of athletes who have trained their entire life for this may have had to miss out whilst in their prime, and their one and only chance to compete for a medal.

The ideal of the Olympics was probably good back in a more innocent age, but I just can't take it seriously any more.
1. As much as I like sports like mountain biking and rugby, I do not see why they belong in the Olympics. The whole thing is just bloated with stuff like that. FFS, why is golf now an Olympic sport?

2. All the sports involved have world championships, generally every year, but four years for World Cup tournaments. Instead of trying to hold everything in one country, just have an athletics world cup in Greece every four years for the traditional Olympic sports and let the other sports hold a championship tournament the same year in whatever location they choose and award a gold medal. Each sport should be responsible for policing doping, etc., with oversight. Any sport that doesn't meet rigorous standards loses the privilege of awarding gold medals, and countries can be excluded from individual sports if their team has been systematically cheating. If the Russian rugby team is clean but their athletics team is dirty, let the rugby team play under the Russian flag and ban the athletics team.

Looks like Russia basically got away with no real consequences, like with other undermining of the rules-based world that they do. I'm sure as usual they feel pretty pleased with themselves (being clever with this ROC thing in everyone's face, which is being permitted) while it doesn't go down well with everyone else.

As with any rule-breaking/crime, if there's lots to be gained while the punishment for getting caught is near net-zero, people may as well, and will, try.

I understand that it’s tough on the innocent individuals if rules were to be fully implemented. However allowing ROC to compete as a ‘nation’ seems to me to be completely ridiculous. How do you 100% prove you are clean?
To most it seems like Russia have been given a meaningless punishment.

It's a bloody bit Committee. How big is the table they sit around, who is the chair and who takes the minutes? Joke.

Icarus on Netflix is worth a watch if you want to find out more about the state sponsored doping going on in Russia.

Yep, watched that a while back. Scary stuff.

ROC being allowed to compete seems like a massive cop-out by the IOC. I guess Jacques Rogge was worried about Putin sending out his goons armed with Novichok.

It’s the Olympics, it’s corrupt.

See also Taiwan being called Chinese Taipei, in this case it's more about being bullied by China. Taiwan is not recognised as an independent state by most countries, but that is also due to China's threats.

How do you 100% prove you are clean?

I simply don't believe you can. This was (is) state sponsored doping. The point of state sponsored doping is engineering a system where doping won't be found. Having a record of endless clean tests is no record of having lived and trained clean. This is a nation that built hatchways and secret corridors into the official testing centre at Sochi so that clean samples could be passed up when Russian athletes were called for testing. If you can be that brazen I dread to think what was going on out of competition.

Doping is very rarely about turning up juiced for a competition anymore - it's more about doping an athlete out of competition so they can train further, harder and longer day after day.

Turning up in sufficient numbers to be where they are in the medal table and competing under a banner with 'Russia' in the title is making the ban and the Olympic institution look a joke. Would a proper ban have been harsh on the athletes - maybe. But being born by chance to a nation that funds elite sport sufficiently to help you rise to the top rather than one that can't is unfair too and out of the control of the individual and we don't seem to worry hugely about that.

It's a ludicrous fudge and is one of the things meaning I can't really GAS about the Olympics this time around. The level of the doping and the covering up of it was pretty extraordinary - I'd imagine if I was Russia I'd point at British Cycling and say 'what's the difference' though (another thing that puts me off).

1. As much as I like sports like mountain biking and rugby, I do not see why they belong in the Olympics. The whole thing is just bloated with stuff like that. FFS, why is golf now an Olympic sport?

The olympics has always been incredibly broad - its one great big celebratory festival, its not just a sports fixture. The idea is theres something for everyone. In the past you'd have been able to get a gold medal for poetry in the 'Pentathlon of the Muses' - theres not really anything thats beyond the scope of the event and theres nothing new in it being diverse. But beyond the competitive events theres the who broader Cultural Olympiad - a nation-wide celebration around the host nation. Bloated is the whole point - it's a feast.

I know in our current climate anything that isn't specifically for my benefit is stupid and other people shouldn't be allowed to do it. But for a few weeks every four years we just have to put up with being aware of the existence of things that other people enjoy.

I'm not sure on the ROC being allowed at the games. I agree that the playing field clearly isn't level, even without state doping / cover ups then clearly you have a better chance of medalling through the luck of being born in a country with the money and infrastructure to support you by fair means or foul. So by the same token, then being born into a nation that oversteps and gets a ban as a result, why not just say tough. In the end it's the athlete that allows the needle to be pushed into them and maybe it requires the collective to throw out the bad apples.

But some are trying - the ROC girl Lasitskene that just won the highjump has been vocal against the state schemes, the coaches that continue in roles despite their history, etc., and has made enemies as a result. And has been prevented from competing in her prime at the Rio games. I can't help feeling pleased for her that she was able to compete under a 'neutral' flag and to win gold this time.

https://apnews.com/article/03c2b3fc48a044a3b7f8f7ac9679bd48

See also Taiwan being called Chinese Taipei, in this case it’s more about being bullied by China. Taiwan is not recognised as an independent state by most countries, but that is also due to China’s threats.

Taiwan did hold a referendum on changing their sporting delegation's name a few years ago but it was voted to keep competing under Chinese Taipei

The olympics has always been incredibly broad

According to Wikipedia, the 1896 Olympics included 45 events:
Athletics (12)
Road cycling (1)
Track cycling (5)
Fencing (3)
Gymnastics (8)
Shooting (5)
Swimming (4)
Tennis (2)
Weightlifting (2)
Wrestling (1)

The 2020 Olympics includes 339 events:
3×3 basketball (2)
Archery (5)
Artistic gymnastics (14)
Artistic swimming (2)
Athletics (48)
Badminton (5)
Baseball (1)
Basketball (2)
Beach volleyball (2)
BMX freestyle (2)
BMX racing (2)
Boxing (13)
Diving (8)
Dressage (2)
Eventing (2)
Fencing (12)
Field hockey (2)
Football (2)
Freestyle wrestling (12)
Golf (2)
Greco-Roman wrestling(6)
Handball (2)
Judo (15)
Jumping (2)
Kata (2)
Kumite (6)
Marathon swimming (2)
Modern pentathlon (2)
Mountain biking (2)
Rhythmic gymnastics (2)
Road cycling (4)
Rowing (14)
Rugby sevens (2)
Sailing (10)
Shooting (15)
Skateboarding (4)
Slalom canoeing (4)
Softball (1)
Sport climbing (2)
Sprint canoeing (12)
Surfing (2)
Swimming (35)
Table tennis (5)
Taekwondo (8)
Tennis (5)
Track cycling (12)
Trampoline (2)
Triathlon (3)
Volleyball (2)
Water polo (2)
Weightlifting (14)

So, no, the modern Olympics is much more bloated now than it was originally.

Swimming (35)

The number of events/medals in swimming is just ridiculous. Four lots of strokes. How many distances? Then all the relays...

I seem to remember the Olympics are a bit older than that...

Though I do actually agree it is bloated now.

The number of events/medals in swimming is just ridiculous. Four lots of strokes. How many distances? Then all the relays…

And yet no doggy paddle.

All the countries have been guilty of doping at some point, especially if you look at the nationalities of those banned.Even the UK
I would say the US, in direct competition with Russia as to who is better would have both sides engaging in doping and underhanded techniques, rather than lose face.

The US is more commercialised and separated from Government funding, I think the authorities have at time certainly turned a blind eye to what was happening rather than co-ordinating a mass doping regime in multiple sports.

Of course there is a large cloud hanging over the nike oregan project and any runner associated with it. And rather similarly I do worry about what was happening in British cycling under Brailsford and the ausie prat. Some revelations and the number of people bullied out of the program makes me question whether they were the ones "resistant" to suggestions of extra help. I doubt anything close to the scale of Russias doping has happened, but we probably should be wary preaching from a puritanical viewpoint.

12 fencing events?!

3 different weapons, 2 sexes, teams and individual. That’s 12.

I suspect that underlying the ROC's inclusion might be a legal issue. If they start banning athletes without any specific evidence of doping on their part then it would make a lot of work for the CAS.

I do think that the IOC could have done a better job of de-russia-ing them though. Maybe get them to compete under a rainbow flag to really wind Putin up.

At least live pigeon shoots have been stopped, apparently it was a bloodbath. Blood, injured birds flapping about and feathers everywhere.

The number of events/medals in swimming is just ridiculous. Four lots of strokes. How many distances? Then all the relays…

3 different weapons, 2 sexes, teams and individual. That’s 12.

So, no, the modern Olympics is much more bloated now than it was originally.

All this only really matters if you get all het up about medal tables or start trying to value a gold in tiddlywinks and a gold in hopscotch as equal (or not).

If you just think of it as a festival of sports all coming together for a big shindig where it's all good. Just more to watch.

My only 'rule' would be that a gold medal at the olympics must the biggest thing in your sport for you to get included. Golf, tennis and football get the boot plus also I suspect some of the new entrants like skateboarding and surfing that are too cool for an olympic gold to be the biggest deal going.

Oh, and shooting is a competitive pastime, not a sport so can get in the sea too.

For me:

Athletics
Swimming

Anything else is on fairly shakey ground.

Definitely get rid of all the horsey shite.

banning an entire nation is a harsh act, the olympics are the pinnacle, and at every 4 years, a lot of athletes who have trained their entire life for this may have had to miss out whilst in their prime, and their one and only chance to compete for a medal.

State backed teams with proven record of state influenced doping and corruption, nobody is free of suspicion. Simple as that.
Unless you have proof otherwise.

Oh, and shooting is a competitive pastime, not a sport so can get in the sea too.

Define sport as against competitive pastime; those who compete at Biseley might disagree, same with archery, table-tennis, swimming…
Anything can be a pastime as well as a sport, all depends on how serious you take it - once upon a time, it was a legal requirement that every male over a certain age had to turn up at the butts and spend a set amount of time at archery practice, the nation’s safety depended on it.
If you don’t like a particular sport being represented, go for a bike ride instead of bitching about it; as far as I’m concerned, the more variety the better.

And rather similarly I do worry about what was happening in British cycling under Brailsford and the ausie prat.

Yep and the pretty big drop from those days is very clear when looking at the track medals in 2020 Olympics. Can be partially explained by a lot of those riders no longer being involved but for so many other countries to get so much better than GB in a few years is surprising isn't it?

If an event like Fencing is in ten Olympics then what does it matter if there are 12 variations. May as well have them once all the fencers are there.

I think there should be lots of sports to give a broader interest. I like BMX and Skateboarding so am happy they are in. I find athletics incredibly boring and less relevant (i.e. how many people actually do hurdles or shot putting as their pastime compared to skateboarding?) but would not want it removed.

thread digression.....

Define sport as against competitive pastime; those who compete at Biseley might disagree, same with archery, table-tennis, swimming…

It's a tricky and well trodden path with lots of cliches* but for me shooting (and archery for that matter) just aren't sports. I've done a bit myself at a rank amature level and whilst I only own an air rifle I'll occasionally wander to the range at work and fire off a few rounds with a .22. For me it fits in the very highly skilled activities like snooker or maybe croquet or bowls (ten pin, lawn or crown green). All very worthy things to do in your spare time if that's your bag and I guess if anyone is daft enough to want to pay to watch you do it (or sponsor you to do it) it can be a profession. But it is not sport to my eyes.

And for reference, now I no longer enter cycle races, when I go biking I consider that I'm riding my bike for fitness using a sporting activity as a pastime. To thoroughly muddy my internal monologue.

* I'd use the one about being able to do it competitively in your jeans, but in reality you can do lots of stuff in jeans if you really wanted to.

Yep and the pretty big drop from those days is very clear when looking at the track medals in 2020 Olympics. Can be partially explained by a lot of those riders no longer being involved but for so many other countries to get so much better than GB in a few years is surprising isn’t it?

But they haven't. Team GB finished top of the track cycling medal table. Training methods in other countries have caught up, but on a whole no country has passed the UK, let alone a large number of countries

I suspect that underlying the ROC’s inclusion might be a legal issue.

I suspect that money has a lot to do with it. The Olympic committee is pretty much a self-appointed group who has set themselves the goal of gouging as much money out of it as they can. Yes, they trot out all the nonsense of it being a festival of sport that unites the world, etc., but it's basically a business and their priorities seem highly focused on maximizing revenue. Countries like Russia see international sports as a way to deflect attention from their political problems so they don't mind throwing billions of dollars at sports events.

I suppose it's always been obvious there's a lot more mixed up in the Olympics than just the sports, some of it probably quite murky, but the fact that Russia are fielding a large team* in Tokyo despite the stuff you see in Icarus makes me wonder what the whole thing is for really.

*I know it's the ROC, so somehow not really Russia? Or whatever the justification was

Can be partially explained by a lot of those riders no longer being involved but for so many other countries to get so much better than GB in a few years is surprising isn’t it?

I think the finger is being pointed at 'preparation' and I'll admit that cycling's history makes that an obvious finger to point. But it's also funding, (track) cycling has been better funded than most other sports, and also other nation's cycling programs for several Olympic cycles now, best wheels best skin suits, best training, etc. This is far easier for others to catch up.

Paralympics next. We'll be a dominant nation in medals there. Because we have better doping programs? Or because we fund Paralympian training way better than most other nations?

Paralympics next. We’ll be a dominant nation in medals there. Because we have better doping programs? Or because we fund Paralympian training way better than most other nations?

I thought it was just because we like sending young lads into 20-year pointless wars involving lots of IEDs.

Russia has won more medals in Tokyo than any games since 2004, but they are all clean..... honest.

What's even the point in having all the testing programmes etc when you can just blatantly subvert them and basically be allowed to carry on as normal?

I just had a google....after retesting of samples etc there's well over 100 positive tests from the 2012 games now!

I think the athletes caught later in retests might make some athletes, in countries like the UK where it could be reported, think twice. But for many they still get their day in the sun, and the country gets its propaganda of the medal table.

Paralympics next. We’ll be a dominant nation in medals there. Because we have better doping programs? Or because we fund Paralympian training way better than most other nations?

I thought it was just because we like sending young lads into 20-year pointless wars involving lots of IEDs.

You've hit the nail on the head there. Sadly.