[Closed] Running Myths Exploded.

Glupton more Awesome than SurfMatt? Never!

Here's a picture of Newton (forefoot wonder shoe) athlete Crowie using the patented forefoot lugs to devastating effect in Kona.

[img] [/img]

And here's some words; http://www.kinetic-revolution.com/forefoot-running-for-ironman-athletes/

But this is a definition of fitness and comes with training.

So you think

1) Technique isn't important
2) Technique comes automatically with fitness or
3) If you're fit then you'll always be fast regardless of technique?

But your definition is so vague to me I cant really answer.

To 1: I would have said of course it is important but you get it through the things I identified above, namely consistent training. Now I am not sure what you mean by "technique" funnily enough from what I think you mean now, I still think the answer is "training" or specifically running, your technique is unique to you. Running is not really a "technical" sport (hurdling, steeple chase yes but running no) I think your technique develops around you in the same way John Treacy appeared inefficient and ungainly but he won a world cross country championship and an Olympic Silver. Ovett on the other hand was poetry in motion. Different techniques but both effective.
2: Yes
3: See 2

So how do you explain my story then? I improved significantly by considering my technique.

Don't you believe me?

Of course I believe you I just dont know what you mean.

Like I said.. you must never have experienced running as badly as I was running. You must have been doing it approximately right automatically.

I'll have to think of a way of videoing myself.

I think that in my 20s when I started trying to do distance running, I thought that you were supposed to land on your heel and roll onto your forefoot like you do when walking. I've even read somewhere that that used to be taught at one point.

Some people might be able to do this well, but with my 85kg or so at the time and lack of running fitness, it was painful, uncomfortable and thoroughly grim. As a fit cyclist and general partaker in sports, I saw no reason why I should not be able to run 8-8.30 after a few months of training and adjusting, but over two miles I was really struggling to beat 10m, and hurting like hell.

Some may be content plodding along at 11m but I was not. So I gave up for a long time.

I'll have to think of a way of videoing myself.

Its really not necessary

I can't get my point acros it seems.

I dont know what this means

Good technique is the smooth seem less transition of the horizontal lower arm raised up to 45 degrees with an comitted accurate movement resulting in superior rehydration.

Anyone read up about Hoka shoes, some ultra runners swear by them apparently

Look absurd to me!

[img] [/img]

Mixed reviews on the Hokas.

Some have hated them some have loved them, was chatting with a runner from the Anster Haddies the other day and he described them as a "game changer"

Bit of a gamble at those prices. Never seen any with serious enough tread patterns to tempt me.

Am I right in thinking that at least some of those Hokas are zero drop?

I would be more than slightly worried about turning an ankle descending any type of fell terrain!

Yeah, I think they are really low drop but just dead thick

Just grandering, most seem 5mm.

I would love to give the Hokas a try, but I am really tight, so it ain't never going to happen.

I've got a pair of Hokas (fool and money etc). Bit of a love/hate affair with the things - mostly run in inov8 f-lite 195's or similar
Not nearly as clumpy as they look. The actual heel is way lower than you'd think from picture and you sort of sit in the sole rather than on it. Pretty close to zero drop, and the foam is really soft so you can plough through stoney paths without really noticing them or having you ankle twisted around as it conforms quite a bit to the surface. Bit like full-suss bike feeling. Also seems to leave my legs feeling less tired the day after.
Downsides - pretty joyless to run in.

If Elton John ever needed running shoes.

Molgrips - do you ever race?

Interesting video.

My experiences:

I started running to supplement rugby training as a teenager (heel striking in Nike Air)
As a uni student increased my mileage (and hills and fells) and could manage half-marathon in 1.5hr, which I was reasonably happy with, as I'm not really built for distance running.
Began suffering knee pain and numbness.
Told I had flat feet (they are very flat) and advised to use orthotics. moved onto New Balance and then Saucony shoes (which seemed to get gradually more cushioned)
Tore ligaments in ankle (requiring reconstructive surgery)

Suffered various leg injuries over the years, but managed to once train for a 10K and managed just over 40minutes. Then suffered more injuries over in the following years, with no continuity in running or other activities (other than mountain biking)

Earlier this year I decided to get myself sorted.

Physio for ailments, lighter, lower shoes without 'pronation-control', read about the ideas for Chi running, pose, barefoot etc.

After 16 years I've stopped using orthotics.

It's taken a while to get the hang of it (and for my calves to stop suffering), but I've now settled into a shorter stride, faster cadence, bent knee, fore-foot/mid-foot strike, relaxed ankles, 'lighter on my feet' style

It feels great and it seems that I'm becoming more efficient.

I can now run in fairly thin-soled, low drop shoes (that didn't cost me much) without jarring my legs and, building-up distances fairly steadily and doing harder intervals and hills(clutching wood, lucky heather, horse-shoes etc.) , I don't appear to be suffering with the sort of niggles that I used to.

Higher heel drop shoes feel unusual now as the heels seem to catch the floor before I want them to.

Pre-exercise stretching has always seemed a bit odd to me.

I do stretch post-exercise as a part of my cool-down.

ps. I intend to do some 10K, trail and eventually half-marathon races when I feel I'm suitably conditioned -aiming to surpass my former standards.

Glupton, no desire to do running races as I have no chance no matter how much training I do. I would like to do some adventure racing, the big off-toad duathlon or triathlon or something. So I need to be good enough to not die on such things.

Molgrips - do you ever race?

Of course he does. I mean, why else would he be so serious about his training!

Jesus. Does he even race!?!?

*wanders off muttering*

My experience, i ramble. Sorry!
I don't recall how i ran as a child. By the age of 13 i remember standing in our local sport shop and bouncing on my heels marveling at the lovely soft cushioning in the brand new shoes i was going to purchase, Asic's Gels i believe. I also remember being 16 ish and trying to run faster by lengthening my stride and landing on my heel, Surely that's why it was there?
10 years past, i ran when i couldn't ride.
I was about 30 when all the forefoot talk "hype" started. By this point i was racing more running events than cycling.
What made me change my style was i would commute to work by bike, change in the toilet then run across a concrete floor to get my shoes. It was obvious my usual heel strike didn't feel good. At another race i felt the need to up the pace, it occurred to me the more i tried to lengthen my stride for speed, the effort and pain seemed to rise two fold.
It took a while to put the pieces together.
I changed deliberately to a mid/forefoot style with the help of Newtons.
But after 2 pairs i again worked out that they were not really needed and any flattish shoe works. Usually inov-8 for off road but Im now happy running in saucony Kinvara. They've a good bit of cushioning in the forefoot whilst having a a 4mm drop. Perfect. At about 43 quid ish for last years colour theyre cheap and i loads of miles out of them.
its not a miracle cure for injuries. But then if you run big mileage weeks something will break eventually.
I am currently fit healthy and running Chester this weekend. So the massage stick is getting some proper use! Wish me luck.

Glupton, no desire to do running races as I have no chance no matter how much training I do.

Seriously mol? How many of the thousands running the Cardiff half marathon this weekend feel they have a "chance"? Even the running gods on this thread would be a few miles behind as the top ten are finishing. You realise that in a race is when you'll run faster than anything you've done in "training".

Does anyone here race on tracks?

I've started to supplement my longer distance running with track sessions with the local running club.

It seems I'm better over shorter distances as all the people that beat me over 5k, I kill over 400 meters.

Just wondering if they're good fun, or there're many about as it seems I'm a bit of a natural sprinter.

I'm a bit of a natural sprinter

Oh...you're in good company here then. 🙂

I do a few track sessions. There's a young guy that flies over 2 and 400m, canes everyone but the fastest in the club. Trouble is he uses the same approach to a 5 or 10k - I enjoy giving him a bit of patronising encouragement as a I pass him half way round a race. Old, slow, but slightly wiser you see 😉

It's not because I won't win, it's because I won't manage anything I consider to be respectable. Plus, it's boring as hell. In an mtb race you've got technical single track, in road you have timing and tactics. Big mountain races are big and mountainous, which is great. Running races around the streets do not appeal. You just jog along with a load of other people then you finish.

Re track racing... Tempted to try the old person 200m 🙂

It's not because I won't win, it's because I won't manage anything I consider to be respectable. Plus, it's boring as hell.

If you never race chances are you'll never get a respectable time, the pressure of racing really ups your game.

And it's only boring if you go to a boring race, running the London Marathon (for example) would hardly be boring.

I consider to be respectable

You should know what pace you can do so set yourself a target and try and beat it.

Or just give up running, or at least talking about how awesome you [i]could[/i] be while doing nothing about it.

Running races around the streets do not appeal.

I've done a few Brizzle halfs and a one Cardiff half. They are awesome events. The atmossphere is great and when you're struggling a bit with motivation or stamina, and someone that recognises you shouts your name when you're not expecting it, it's lovely.

I guess you're either a doer or a thinking-about-doing-er mol. Which one are you?

Molgrips, sorry, but it doesn't sound like you'll ever achieve anything.

Respectable is whatever you can achieve given how fit you are and what level of training you can commit to.

Talking the big game is a way of not ever doing anything in my opinion.

I won't manage anything I consider to be respectable.

Then you need to revise your expectations. I was reasonable club standard when I was younger (32 mins for 10k) but I am 48 now so those times are never coming back. Effectively I am running slower and a few years ago I stopped racing, call it the Prima Dona syndrome. It was hard running slower and moving back through the field.
I got my head around it, realised I loved racing and set myself realistic goals. I would like to break 36 mins for 10k and 28 mins for 5. All achievable.
Dont let high expectations rob you of something that is great fun.

I got my head around it, realised I loved racing and set myself realistic goals. I would like to break 36 mins for 10k and 28 mins for 5. All achievable.

28? Or 18? 🙂

28, I meant to say 5 miles. 😳

Then you need to revise your expectations.

Or just save my entry fee and run on my own. I just don't see the appeal of running in a crowd, that's all.

Molgrips, sorry, but it doesn't sound like you'll ever achieve anything.

Not in running I won't, no. At least not in terms of results. This is just a project, because I hate being unable to do things properly. I think I've already achieved a lot being able to run the way I now can, and I'll keep running for fitness, weight loss, and to improve my times. One day I'll do one of those big mountain triathlons; maybe one day I'll break 21 mins for 5k, that'd be nice.

I just don't want or need to enter road races 🙂

Or just save my entry fee and run on my own

Why worry about getting better at it then?

Just exercise, have fun and get fitter.

[i]It's not because I won't win, it's because I won't manage anything I consider to be respectable[/i]

Why are you running?

Seriously what are you doing? There are runners in my club who are fantastic runners, they run just for the love of running, not interested in time or races, just being out. ( I regularly run with a friend who's in his fifties and we run for hours nattering about everything under the sun and the time and distance fly by. There are others that live for our club champs, talk about nothing but pace and times, racing is everything.

I've done Oxford half Bristol half, they were amazing experiences, loads of people cheering, atmosphere was amazing. Time ( for me) was irrelevant

Sort out your head Molly, you're constantly on here about weight and running and whatever, but you seem to be in a rut about how you approach stuff

Dont buy into all that commercialised BS about big races, thats just a racket. Get into a local low key race and give it a go. You might like it.
If you are a total skinflint get along to a Fell race. You will run till yer eyeballs pop for a couple of quid. I'll even pay!!!!

Try it once before you say you dont like it. Where are you based?

crowd

Or do you mean "witnesses"?

200!

What about some park runs?

Completely free.

I did my local 5k in Cardiff, that was.. a run. I don't feel like doing another. I have done a Thanksgiving 5 mile race a few times in the US, I started doing it because it's a big local thing so lots of people I knew were doing it, and it was my original challenge to do it in under 40 mins.

I did the Fan Dance last winter, that was a laugh because it was fairly epic and up in the mountains with snow, low visibilty and navigation was required. If I can keep up the running I'm currently doing I might have another go this winter.

That's the one that DD and Yeti wussed out of, incidentally 🙂

Why are you running?

As above, it's because I want to be good enough to enjoy it. I want to be able to do big adventury stuff, but I don't like town based events.

Dont buy into all that commercialised BS about big races,

Of course they're run to make money. But lots of people enjoy them too. They're not all about "commercialised bullshit" which belittles lots of folks' efforts, not to mention money raised. There's plenty to enjoy whether it's a "big" event or a "little", and I suppose, more authentic one.

That's the one that DD and Yeti wussed out of, incidentally

To be fair mol, I'm happy to argue the discussion with you but let's not start bullshitting now...please.

i agree completely with molgrips (on most things)

i've done a few normal 'races' (half marathons, 10k's, park-runs), and they're kinda dull.

but fell-races are great, so i do those.

i like to get better at running because i enjoy running, not because i want to move from 3167th to 3165th at the local half'.

if anything, i'm a better road-runner, than a fell-runner (going on results/positioning), but i much prefer running off road.

I guess you're either a doer or a thinking-about-doing-er mol. Which one are you?

I do. I've done loads of events. Just usually the ones I fancy doing, and not the ones I don't.

To be fair mol, I'm happy to argue the discussion with you but let's not start bullshitting now...please.

Sorry, that was intended to be light hearted banter, I apologise unreservedly if I offended.

i agree completely with molgrips (on most things)

🙂

I might do a fell race one day. It does appeal much more than road running.. but I do find myself on downhills thinking 'this would be way better on a bike'

Not offended mol, just calling bullshit, that's all.

It was good... I may do it again this year, I wonder if anyone would care to join me?

How many of the thousands running the Cardiff half marathon this weekend feel they have a "chance"?

*Waves highly cushioned shoes around* That's me! I've got no chance!

Cardiff half is my first race for about 7 years. I will 100% run a personal worst. But thats cool, I'll beat someone (probably) and I know that "racing" will push me more than just going for a run.

To be honest Molgrips, your description of running just sounds like you're not that fit, and need to run more.

That's not me trying to wind you up by the way, you sound like you're in a similar situation to me.

I used to be 10 1/2 stone, and ran 8.30 half marathons by running once a week. I'm now 14 1/2 stone, cycle 35 miles a week, and have run 3 times a week since April. I'll be lucky if I finish it under 10 minute miles.

I'm fitter than people I work with, but I weigh too much and havent built up enough running fitness.

I figure that pushing myself by entering a race which I'll struggle to do well in will lead me to train more and improve, rather than thinking about where I put my feet when I'm running.

Oh, and you know you said running feels shit? It always does, doesn't matter how fast or fit you are. You just get to feel shit for less time per given distance as you get better!

To be honest Molgrips, your description of running just sounds like you're not that fit, and need to run more.

I'm not that fit, no, and I need to be fitter of course, who doesn't? But better to train without glaring problems with technique than with, isn't it?

Oh, and you know you said running feels shit? It always does

That's not what some people say. People on here seem to enjoy running for the hell of it, bounding along effortlessly with the wind in their hair. I'd like to be able to enjoy it like that. Well.. with the wind on my scalp.

People on here seem to enjoy running for the hell of it, bounding along effortlessly with the wind in their hair.

This....but with less of the second bit.

Maybe Col Wax needs to work on his technique, so it feels better to do 🙂

Agree that when you start running its shit. When you get fit, are well rested and not injured then running is absolutely not shit

Its ace.

For me, it didn't get any better until I fixed my stride.

You may not have had such a bad gait to begin with, which is why you just needed to get fit.

Like swimming really.

Now swimming...there is something I have to force myself to do.

Zzzzzzzzzzz.

Hehe.. and I find swimming quite easy. The training part is dull as hell even so.

I still had to work on my technique though!

colonel wax - Member

Oh, and you know you said running feels shit? It always does,

nah - but maybe i'm fitted with a extra-large endorphin tank or something...

mmmmmh cupcakes.

Sorry, where was I, yes. Things being easy.

Running is easy if you're not pushing yourself, same with swimming.

It's semantics but I don't feel anyone can say they find either quite easy unless their easy runs are sub 7 min mile and their easy swims are sub 1m35s per 100m.

I don't find either easy.

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I don't [i]enjoy[/i] running, coz it's ace.

But it's not easy, and if you push yourself it's not exactly enjoyable at the time. Well it is, but it's not pleasant. well, OK you do have times when you feel like it's no effort and you could run forever, but not always.

Oh, you know what I mean.

My dad says "it never gets easier, you just go faster"

I can enjoy running, but it hurts. Afterwards I feel ammmmaaaaazzzing ( it really is like post sex buzz, y'know? 😳 ) but at the time, if someone said to me "you can stop s'ok" I would every single time.

Love running, but every time I start running I'm like " why am I doing this" and then about 1/2 hour in when everything is warmed up its almost effortless ( for about 30 seconds) then a hill comes along, or the person I'm running with just ups the pace a bit, and its hurty again.

That's me running. Ok?

it really is like post sex buzz, y'know?

What a slightly empty feeling because you went off to quick and then collapsed just before the finishing line?

In which case I know exactly what you mean.

Maybe Col Wax needs to work on his technique, so it feels better to do

Nah, I've found that just running more has improved my running. It's pretty simple, and I don't need to overthink it at my level of ability.

I've got some barefoot shoes, and they're OK. Works different muscles when I'm running and I quite like the wide toe box.

I also wear cheapo Nike Pegasus (last years colour from Sports Direct) and I can run faster, further and longer in them. So I'll stick to them in the future I reckon.

Afterwards I feel ammmmaaaaazzzing

I don't get that 🙂

Of course they're run to make money. But lots of people enjoy them too. They're not all about "commercialised bullshit" which belittles lots of folks' efforts, not to mention money raised. There's plenty to enjoy whether it's a "big" event or a "little", and I suppose, more authentic one.

I'm not belittling peoples efforts but some events have crept into popular consciousness to the exclusion of others.
The mass marketing bullshit and peoples inability to see further than whats on the telly has meant that when people think about a "marathon" they cant think further than London! or one of the big city ones. whilst lots of the other events go to the wall. I dont have a beef about London as such its just that lots of traditional races and events have gone to the wall through lack of interest.
I have only ever run one but speak to people about running and all they ask is have you done London or do you run Marathons. For all the big participation events I am not sure it contributes much to club athletics, coaching and support for youngsters coming into the sport.

A good example of an alternative is the Wirral AC Birkenhead park races.
An evening of races over different distances for all ages, age group awards etc. This is what runnings all about, that and cross country and track :edit and Fell of course!

More creative different events would be good.

I want to do a real sprint triathlon where you swim 2 lengths, run 200m and ride 1km 🙂

I didnt know you had raced already Molly, its not for everyone. I'm a bit Steve McQueen esque where racing is concerned (but without the looks 🙁 )

I think it's people who don't run that ask if you've done London. As such, it doesn't bother me. If all that was available were small authentic grass-fed, free range, organic fell races, then a fraction of people would even get off their arses and try running in the first place.

Steve McQueen esque?

More creative different events would be good

Its Friday afternoon and I am ranting but....... Why do people need to be snorkelling through mud, carrying logs and crawling under barbed wire to gain a stificate etc?
How many different types of unique events is enough to get people involved? I love running 5 milers, accesible, cheap and readily available. I've ran hundreds of them over the last 30 years and I will be as excited running the next one as I did the last.
Thats just me 🙂

Steve McQueen esque?

"Racing is life, anything before or after is just waiting" 🙂

I'd like them to be creative in terms of location. There could be some lovely runs in the hills around here, but it seems fell running is only popular up north.

I'd like them to be creative in terms of location. There could be some lovely runs in the hills around here, but it seems fell running is only popular up north.

Search for "trail race" rather than fell, [url= http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/events/foundevents.asp?v=2&evntTitle=&evntDate=a%3afut&distance=&county=&area=Wales&distanceFromHome=&evntSurface=Trail&evntGround=&evntWheelChairAccessible= ]here are 9[/url] for example.

Hmm.. they do look much more fun than running around a park 🙂

There's a gazillion events all over the place every day of the week - more than enough for several lifetimes, and plenty of novelty events. Road, track, xc, fell, multi-terrain, trail, multisport, LDWA, parkrun, ultra, stupid log carrying, barb-wire fence corporate bollocks, blah, and still they keep coming. But if you don't like racing, you don't like racing. Me, I'm rubbish, but love a good tussle. One of my favourite t-shirts is Steve McQueen racing his dirt bike.

I want to do a real sprint triathlon where you swim 2 lengths, run 200m and ride 1km

Funny you say that, but I reckon 200m or 400m are my favourite distances at the moment. I love the feeling of almost effortless power for the first 150m or so, feeling every foot-fall and trying to make the next faster, then dumping anything left to get over the line. Short, sweet and visceral.
I'm absolutely useless at them though. 😀

Feel like this -
[img] [/img]
Reality -
[img] [/img]

I love sprinting..

Steve McQueen esque?
"Racing is life, anything before or after is just waiting"

Love this! I'm wishing my life away until my 2014 season starts.

Entertaining thread too 🙂

You want to have a look at the WFRA site Molgrips [url= http://www.wfra.me.uk/ ]here[/url]

Fan Fawr race is a quid, and Sugar Loaf race is £4. bargains, and running in nice places close to Cardiff.

Oh that looks good... ta.

You could just ignore the others and then it ceases to be a "race"
I am rubbish at fell racing [s]running[/s] but I like running on the Fells. I run them very rarely and I think you need a special mindset to be competitive! I remember running the Coniston fell race years ago when I was in good shape and felt good to the top and was in the top handful, not bad for a non fell runner.
I turned with the others then lost about 80 places on the descent 🙁

You could just ignore the others and then it ceases to be a "race"

Then I might as well race the clock at my convenience.

I thought I did ok on the descents in the Fan Dance, until some blokes came literally tumbling past me at almost freefall speed. I've absolutely no idea how they were behind me in the first place mind, maybe they got lost on the way to the start.. badly lost 🙂