[Closed] Running Myths Exploded.

I've sat and watched this one, to see how it goes...

Running Myths Exploded

Do what works for you, and feel free to ignore numpties who disagree - whether or not they have a youtube video that says so.

To be fair he's done a wee bit of training. http://www.drandyfranklynmiller.com/

My advice to you would be to go out and dick about with your running style - see what works best for you.

So, work on my technique then 😆

Call it what you want. Play at the ministry of funny runs. You'll enjoy it more than working on technique. 😀

Last summer I was recovering (slowly) from a back injury and found that I couldn't run hard at all but could plod reasonably comfortably.
I decided to give FFS running a go and gradually changed my style. I got some minimal Merrels for about £20 and run once a week(ish) in them and the rest of the time in neutral shoes. My running style has tilted forward a fair bit during that time.

The biggest benefit seems to be the increase in strength in my ankles and calves. If I almost go over on an ankle now it's usually ok. A couple of years ago if I did that Id have to have a week off running with an ankle strain.

It's true that we have to find what works for us individually but I find it hard to argue against the human biology argument for barefoot running....although actually running in bare feet where I live would be asking for trouble.

and pretending that good technique just comes natural is bollocks.

You do realise I didnt say this dont you

would like to shortcut the process

You wont get far by doing the above and reading about it on the internet 😯

Those who are naturally good runners have no concept of how **** grim it can be for others!

Who are these "naturally good runners" Molly. Do you mean the ones who go out rain or shine and plug away? the more I train the luckier I get and all that 🙄

Who are these "naturally good runners" Molly. Do you mean the ones who go out rain or shine and plug away?

No, I mean those who start jogging and can easily knock out 7.30 miles as soon as they start. Like people I know.

The naturally bad runners are the ones who are pleased as punch having trained like hell to do one single mile under 8 mins. They also exist.

The same people I played football, athletics, basketball and everything else with at school, who I was every bit as fit as, the ones who on cross country runs handed my arse to me on a plate. They are the ones with natural technique. Same as I had natural technique in all the sports I was good at.

We know technique is important. I don't understand your point. Are you saying NOT to bother trying to improve technique? If you are imagining me spending my life subscribing to fads I've read about on the internet, I'm not. I run, I think about what I could do better, I read about it, discuss it, I take advice, and I've improved massively.

Still failing to see what I'm doing wrong.

Glupton, thanks for posting. I found it interesting. I know it's not the stw way, but I'm happy to be advised by someone who's done so.e research and is considered an expert in their field. I'm very interesting in what he said about orthotics though as I use hard orthotics fir everything. It would be nice if I could do away with them.

As for running technique coming naturally, I'm not so sure. Learn a little about gait and watch people in the street. It looks like most of them haven't mastered walking yet.

I don't understand your point. Are you saying NOT to bother trying to improve technique?

We have had this discussion on a number of threads Molly and I have made the point clearly before so I will put the question back to you. What do you mean by "good technique" and how will you know it when you see it? also how will it help you? Do you want to look good when you run or do you see "technique" as something that will make you faster, is that what you are trying to achieve? Do you mean efficiency? if so overtly good "technique" (in the sense of "fast")doesnt always look attractive and I know a number of good athletes who appear to have poor "technique" but are effective racers and I know a lot of athletes who look very smooth and efficient and are less effective when it comes to racing. There is a lot going on under the "bonnet"!
An effective and efficient (and often fast) technique comes through training and the repetition of specific action over a long period of time. The adaption process is faster with some people than others I am sure but by striving for "technique" or some "magic bullet" I think you are missing the point that hard work brings the reward.
I dont think about a single muscle or group when I am running I just try to cover the ground as quickly as I can given the terrain and I let nature take its course.

As far as I can tell. Surfer is saying your form will come with practice, so the best thing to do is go out and run.

Anecdotally I tend to stop running completely over the summer months and just spend my time [s]eating crisps[/s] riding bikes. When I start running again I'm like a sack of spuds. But that irons out as the muscular economy and efficiency realign themselves to running.

And yes, I can still remember how awful it is to be bad at running. When pushing the distance on a run is just getting to the next gate 200m away, or the end of a line of trees. And even then having to stop to recover. I still vividly remember being described "you looked demented" because I was so trashed by a five mile run I could barely keep going. At least I think that was the reason. My ability to run further and faster with less injuries came about through practice, and with that came the muscular development and form to accommodate high work loads. There was bugger all natural talent involved.

I think surfer is spot on here.

For those looking to get a better technique I'd advise running a 5k everyday for the month of October.

Run on feel everyday. If you're tired, run slower. Feeling good, run faster. Just make sure you go out and run.

What do you mean by "good technique" and how will you know it when you see it?

I'll know if a change in technique results in an improvement, because it'll feel easier, and I'll go faster. I'm interested in efficiency and speed of course. I'm not interested in looking good 🙄

I am sure but by striving for "technique" or some "magic bullet" I think you are missing the point that hard work brings the reward.

Umm....... If I wasn't interested in hard work I wouldn't be running at all, would I? Running is hard work full stop.

Thinking about technique is important. As I've also stated many times, it can be the difference between hating and enjoying. I've done plenty of training, and it helps, but figuring out better technique can have dramatic and instant results.

I can only conclude that you, surfer, and the others who say 'just run' have never been in my position. That of an otherwise fit determined person who's shit at distance running.

My ability to run further and faster with less injuries came about through practice, and with that came the muscular development [b]and form[/b] to accommodate high work loads.

Yes. And form. Form doens't just magically appear, at least not for everyone. Maybe for some I don't know.

This never happens on swimming threads...

For those looking to get a better technique I'd advise running a 5k everyday for the month of October.

What have you been smoking?

I can only conclude that you, surfer, and the others who say 'just run' have never been in my position. That of an otherwise fit determined person who's shit at distance running.

Dont conclude that I am good at it but the difference between being "shit" and "less shit" will be determined by the training you are doing. Anyway made my point, good luck Molly 🙂
Out of interest how much distance are you doing per week and do you do any mixed pace Fartlek type stuff?

What have you been smoking?

I tried intervals. Nothing complicated or super-fast, just 5 x 4min/km with 2 mins rest/recovery. I do five to ten minutes of circuits style warm-up so, some side steps in and out, some press-ups, some burpees and some knees up-heels up stuff. My warm down is a slow jog home for 5 minutes (apart from when I pass my competitive neighbour's window when I speed up and push my chest out in case he's watching 🙂 ). I can confirm that they have sped me up.

The only technique based thing I've tried is to imagine a line projecting out from my sternum and not letting my hands cross that line, working my arms a bit more and relaxing my hands from a tightish grip.

Funnily enough mol, when I run fast during the interval, all these things happen naturally. And my body learns to run a bit faster. Just going for a run has never helped apart from making it easier to just go and do something instead of having a bar of chocolate.

If your quads and glutes are sore from doing intervals (you will be doing them won't you?), run a cold shower over them for five minutes and have a glass of chocolate milk.

I try to do one 5-10k a week, one sprint session and one tempo session, but sometimes only two of those. Or none...

Without sorting out my form, all that training was a waste. My form was originally so bad that I hated every step. That's why I never used to do any running. I'm really not imagining it. Fixing terrible form really did result in huge improvements immediately. Training is obviously vital too, but you need both.

No point in putting a highly tuned race engine in a car with flat tyres and knackered shocks. You won't win any races and it won't be fun to drive either.

do you do any mixed pace Fartlek type stuff?

Why would he do that? That would be training, working to improve, doing things to get better just isn't fun. Much better to just get out there and run free and naked, and wait to be magically transformed into an elite athlete.

Good thread 🙂 i don't run but i do a lot of gym and bike work and have bought into the foam rolling / stretching routine to relieve muscle stiffness and soreness for a long time. Reading some of those links and then further ones linked from them has got me thinking about why i do it and the benefits or lack of.

I wont be changing my routine much as i know it definitely works for me, but it really opened my eyes to the so called benefits of the rollers.

Strange as i really do feel so much better and less stiff after using it.

*skips to the end*

Anyone have a decent method for sorting out a peroneal tendon issues, mostly peroneus brevis , as it's been hampering me for months now 😐

Edit: 100!

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Intervals are the single best use of training time. If you do little else then run intervals. Them and hill sessions. Everything else is just "padding" as a good mate of mine used to say (who was a good runner)

Emil Zatopek used them to devastating effect 😀

I try to do one 5-10k a week, one sprint session and one tempo session, but sometimes only two of those. Or none...

That there illustrates your problem beautifully. You wouldn't start putting sprint sessions into a mountain bike training programme without first building up the base by spending time on the bike....

You would go out and ride your bike and mess about with it until you are comfortable on the bike. Running is the same. Keep your clothes on though.

Anyone have a decent method for sorting out a peroneal tendon issues, mostly peroneus brevis , as it's been hampering me for months now

Yip - strengthen tibialis posterior.

Yip - strengthen tibialis posterior.

Righto.

Any recommend exercises?

You wouldn't start putting sprint sessions into a mountain bike training programme without first building up the base by spending time on the bike....

That's why I reckon he should run 5k a day for a while.

Chuck in some pick ups or intervals if he wants. But just get some volume of running under the belt.

try something like

try to not lose the will to live when watching the video.

That's why I reckon he should run 5k a day for a while.

One way ticket to injury that one...

I've been doing these with a physio band on Gluptons advice. They certainly hurt muscles you dont know you have for a few days!

Surfer - You seeing any improvements?

One way ticket to injury that one...

Not if you're sensible. It's next to no distance, but walk some of them if you have to.

Only adds up to 35k a week so after a month you'll have a good base.

Not if you're sensible. It's next to no distance, but walk some of them if you have to.

Lets take molgrips as an example - he's doing 5-10k/week with a couple of other things thrown in sometimes. For him to do 35km/wk would be anything between a 700% increase and a 200% increase. Never a good idea.

Here's what actually happened, in actual real life:

Training without thinking about form = utter misery
Think about form, make some changes
Training = much much more fun, I do more of it, I introduce intervals and get much much better than I ever had been, quite quickly.

I still fail to see what I've done wrong. My running has improved greatly.

You would go out and ride your bike and mess about with it until you are comfortable on the bike. Running is the same. Keep your clothes on though.

Still can't work out who this sarcams is directed at.

That there illustrates your problem beautifully.

What problem is that? I don't have a problem.. any more..

See... I have an image of Molgrips in my mind as a sort of slighlty more amusing, yet balding, Eddie Izzard.

If he can start running marathons everyday...

Good - I'm happy for you. 😀

Lets take molgrips as an example - he's doing 5-10k/week with a couple of other things thrown in sometimes. For him to do 35km/wk would be anything between a 700% increase and a 200% increase. Never a good idea.

Whoa there, sounds like your applying some sort of steady increase in mileage principle to running load there, that's not fun, much better to just go out and splash around in some puddles, that's the best way to improve.

The three types of session described by Molly are the staples of all endurance type events. By simply applying them at the right pace/intensity anyone will improve. It is that simple.

How much and how quickly will depend on a whole bunch of things, background to exercise, genes, natural talent, technique level.

However as has been said running based speed work will generally increase your efficiency and thus "improve" your technique.

Generally speaking people with good technique make their sport look easy, however there are a fair few examples of that not being true, Paula's arm carriage/head movement for one.

If its working, then keep doing it.

As other runners are saying - just put the miles in, long and slow 6 days a week, I didn't do any speedwoork until about 6 weeks out from the great north run this year but was pounding out about 50 miles a week since January and racing on the fells every couple of weeks, no track sessions, no tempo runs until the goal race approached.. The speedwork tuned me up great for the race, but no need to focus on it whislt you build a base IME. I always did too much in previous years and would always end up injured or overtrained.

With this approach I knocked 5 mins of my half marathon PB this year and did 1:21.

Long slow miles are boring as hell but they work, if you do lots

And the long slow miles approach is the other school of thought.

Personally I find it de-motivational and injury inducing, especially for the newbie. However I'd guess 80% or "runners" build their base this way so it clearly works.

Lots of long slow miles... Recipe for grim, in my book. Shuffling zombie isn't my favourite passtime.

Check out these 2 guys training for Frankfurt, most of their running is just long (relativley) slow miles, track once a week and the long run on sunday is often faster than the rest

http://www.strava.com/athletes/1194096

http://www.strava.com/athletes/2461157

Surfer - You seeing any improvements?

Yes a little thanks Glupton. Managed a steady 5 miles last night with no reaction this morning. Aim to continue that into the weekend then maybe increase early next week. The eccentric exercise seem to be having a real affect now 😀

And the long slow miles approach is the other school of thought.

This is a misnomer. Lots of people and mags have used this term for well "long VERY slow distance"!
The "slow" is and needs to be a relative term. There has to be a "training" and adaptation affect. If you are simply running very slowly you are wasting your time and increasing your chance of developing an injury for very little (if any) benefit.
Even weekly long runs should be run at a manageable pace but be taxing to some extent. Top athletes who have used this technique term "slow" as a pace that not many of us can manage. There is very little "training" being done by many people I see out at weekends in large groups chatting and shuffling along. Social running is fine and good luck to them but they are not "training"
If you use LSD to build a base then thats fine. But it needs to be done at a pace that brings about physiological change.

Yes slow is relative, for me its 7:00 to 7:30 min miles when a race will be 5:30 to 6:15. This is where a HR monitor came in useful for me, I to ensure I am in the right training zone and not going too fast or slow I am for 150-155bpm on a general run, whereas my threshold is around 177

Training? adaptation affect? a pace that brings about physiological change?

What happened to "just run"?

It seems that you were using a quick soundbite of advice, that is actually the opposite of what you actually do.

Yes slow is relative, for me its 7:00 to 7:30 min miles when a race will be 5:30 to 6:15

Thats it exactly. So many people think they can simply move at a pace slightly faster than walking and kid themselves they are following a prescribed training method. I shudder to think how fast Peter Snell's LSD runs where 😯
Lydiard would be turning in his grave!

It seems that you were using a quick soundbite of advice, that is actually the opposite of what you actually do.

I have ignored you remarks and everybody else seem to have done the same thing. If you want to make a point go ahead just dont be an arse.

Just bought 2 new pairs of trainers, on a crossbread for road(40%,60%) trail and a pair of minimalist jobbies just for the road.
Let you know after the weekend how I got on with the minimalist(s)

Just pointing out how you preached "just run" with statements like

Your over thinking it. Just go out and run and it will take care of itself

but it turns out that isn't what you do, you clearly don't like having it pointed out, but making misleading statements as advice that you don't follow yourself could really be considered being an arse.

but it turns out that isn't what you do

Where did I say that this was what I do? please tell?

I said that in response to Molly who was talking about technique. That advice stands and Molly and I have a different view of "technique" also Molly has explained that he is relatively new to running so his and my requirements would be different.
I do "just run" but it has a purpose and within that running I adopt a number of different things, intervals, a lot of Fartlek and some very long runs.
I am not sure why you think my statement is incompatible with the things I have said since.

I'm doing 8:30mins miles on my weekend LSR just so I know I'm doing under 2 hours for a 1/2.

Can do 7mins mile for a 10k but haven't been doing much speedy stuff recently, loving going long distance 🙂

Molly, I'm not a natural runner, took me ages to get from running round the block in one to wanting to cry thinking my legs and lungs were in fire, but I'm a bit obsessive about stuff so just kept on at it. To quote the masked man " thank you, I've worked long and hard to become so"

The thing is, when I was a shuffling zombie, I was actually pretty fit from a cycling point of view. Having a high level of general fitness, but still being unable to do more than a zombie shuffle after about 3/4 mile or 2 miles in under 20 mins told me something was missing from the picture.

Turns out it was technique that was missing. As I said, surfer and I mean different things when talking about technique. He's talking about the finer points of running fast, but I don't think he's ever experienced running from my starting point.

If you want to know what good running technique looks like, or any movement pattern for that matter, look at young kids and see how they move.

Not sure I agree with that. It takes many years to refine motor control, depending on what you end up doing.

I've got two kids, both really young, and they do things completely differently with a completely different innate aptitude.

I didn't expect you to agree with it.

Squat like a baby.

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Lol that's genius!

Kids running. 😀

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Some of whom are striking their heels way out in front of them.. I have no idea where you are going with this... some kids are crap runners, some are great.

It's the new pedialithic running technique.

There's a diet to go with it that sucks tits.

Some of whom are striking their heels way out in front of them.

And your point is what?

Have you ever seen an able bodied kid who thought they had a rubbish running style that they had to work on?

Some of whom are striking their heels way out in front of them

You cant tell from the picture if the heel will land first though.

Have you ever seen an able bodied kid who thought they had a rubbish running style that they had to work on?

NO but I've seen load and loads of kids who are crap at distance running! Honestly you must be on a wind up.

You're saying that I should do what comes naturally, aren't you?

I've told you many many times - I started off doing that, I did it between the ages of 10 and 34. And then I thought about it a bit, and got much better. I really don't understand why you don't believe me on this.

I was reading some articles on a running site that said very few distance runners, or triathletes (even those sponsored by Newton) finish the race running on their forefoot.

What they can do though is maintain a good cadence and land with their foot close to their body and with their knees in front of the ankles.

You're saying that I should do what comes naturally, aren't you?

I've told you many many times - I started off doing that, I did it between the ages of 10 and 34. And then I thought about it a bit, and got much better. I really don't understand why you don't believe me on this.

I'm saying that you should do what comes naturally yes. A zombie shuffle isn't natural at 10 years old...

Baby - my running style doesn't change with distance. I always land mid foot first, then heel lands shortly afterwards.

Let me explain again.

I started off doing what came naturally, and it was awful, and I hated running. I thought about technique, made some improvements, and my running got much better.

Are you disagreeing with that chain of events?

my running style doesn't change with distance

Or so you think...

What they can do though is maintain a good cadence and land with their foot close to their body and with their knees in front of the ankles.

That's the general conclusion we've come to on STW I think. Foot placement is important, heel/mid/toe less so.

The bit I'm not convinced about is that what you were doing was what came naturally. You may have made some changes which took you back to the "normal" running style that you had as a young child.

Or so you think...

It doesn't - certainly not up to marathon distance.

Ok fair enough.

So why would I have changed my style, and at what age?

And how young are we talking about? Are you saying that ALL young kids have good technique?

And I never ran distances as a child either, so it's a bit hard to make a comparison. All I did was sprint and muck about.

So you're cadence is consistent from mile one though to 26?

You're obviously a very good runner. With excellent technique and ancillary strength.

good technique

I dont know what this means

So you're cadence is consistent from mile one though to 26?

Cadence isnt the same as foot strike. My footstrike stays the same even when I am exhausted and my "form" has started to get ragged. I still land on my forefoot.

Ok, so I think good technique means

a) you're comfortable over several miles
b) you can keep form over several miles
c) if you're generally fit, and you are working hard, you're doing more than say 9.30

So why would I have changed my style, and at what age?

No idea.

And how young are we talking about? Are you saying that ALL young kids have good technique?

Given that you adopted the zombie shuffle at 10yrs old I'd say 9 and below. I'd also say that all able bodied kids without impairments have good running style.

So you're cadence is consistent from mile one though to 26?

Pretty much. Stride length gets longer in the 2nd half of a run as I like to do negative splits.

You're obviously a very good runner. With excellent technique and ancillary strength.

I was surrounded by top quality runners, including olympic gold medalists, as a kid. It's like riding a bike - it never leaves you. 😀

Obviously Surfer. But as a runner tires and their cadence slows to maintain the same pace then the stride must lengthen?

Which may, or may not, result in a change in which part of the foot contacts the ground first.

Worth mentioning that some runners forefoot strike and overstride.

The part of the foot that hits the ground first is not what makes someone efficient.

I was surrounded by top quality runners, including olympic gold medalists, as a kid. It's like riding a bike - it never leaves you.

Did you got to school with a guy called Matt who was into surfing?

I'd also say that all able bodied kids without impairments have good running style.

Based on what?

By the way, I never 'adopted' the zombie shuffle. I was heel striking out in front of me, which is very knackering, and results in significant fatigue. This in turn induces zombie characteristics.

I remember even at the age of about 6 or 7 noting that I had to run differnently in bare feet because my heels were hitting the floor too hard.

Ok, so I think good technique means

a) you're comfortable over several miles
b) you can keep form over several miles
c) if you're generally fit, and you are working hard, you're doing more than say 9.30

Whereas I think good technique is:
You're not landing heavily with limbs going everywhere,
You're not spending all your energy going up and down,
You're enjoying it and you're relaxed.

I think your points overlap with mine, especially the last one.

you're comfortable over several miles
b) you can keep form over several miles
c) if you're generally fit, and you are working hard, you're doing more than say 9.30

But this is a definition of fitness and comes with training.

But as a runner tires and their cadence slows to maintain the same pace then the stride must lengthen?

When I tire by definition my stride length would not lengthen to compensate. If I had the strength/energy to lengthen my stride I wouldnt be slowing. All of those things happen around the same time.

Which may, or may not, result in a change in which part of the foot contacts the ground first.

No necessarily. My forefoot strike comes naturally there is no effort involved and it would take a conscious effort to change it. Its developed that way through no decision on my part. I suspect it is faster and more efficient but is just a by product of a mis spent youth! If you run fast (using the term loosley in my case!) then you lean forward and have to push hard from the front of the foot using them as levers.
It seems counter intuitive that the next part of the cycle involves your heel.

Did you got to school with a guy called Matt who was into surfing?

No, but the guy on the right of this picture was our school running club's coach.

[img] [/img]

He is even more awesome than Surf Matt. Saw him once at the national relays in Birmingham. What a Physical presence 😳