[Closed] Running Myths Exploded.

Just flicked through it will watch it fully later.

Good to see the pre run stretching myth debunked again (and little benefit post exercise also)

Good slide on barefoot running and good to have the myth exposed again and the benefit of having shoes fitted in a specialised shop.

Thanks

(and little benefit post exercise also)

if I don't stretch after running I can barely walk the next day. Should I stop?

if I don't stretch after running I can barely walk the next day. Should I stop?

My personal advice for you would be to keep on stretching after running. This is on the basis of if it works for you then keep doing it.

if I don't stretch after running I can barely walk the next day. Should I stop?

I do have an opinion but it is based on experience and anecdote as oppose to Gluptons undoubted expertise and knowledge.

Over the years my approach has been not to stretch but to "warm up" and "cool down" and these are both very necessary. The first doesnt involve any static stretching but would over a period of a few minutes (for a steady run) or much longer for a track or speed session go through the range of movements gradually that you will use during the session. Its common for quality club road runs to start very slowly, build up to very fast then "racing" stops a mile or so from home. Basically start and finsih very slowly.

:edit
Exactly as 5thelephant puts it.

Good to see that he says you can forefoot run with cushioned shoes, too many people try forefoot with minimalist shoes and hate it (because it hurts their feet). I run forefoot in heavily cushioned Nike air's with no issues.

Its common for quality club road runs to start very slowly, build up to very fast then "racing" stops a mile or so from home. Basically start and finsih very slowly.

I do something similar to this. I'll walk/slowly jog from the first 15 mins, then run my planned distance as normal, and then walk the last 15 mins back to the house/car. If nothing else it stops me having to sit in the car pishing with sweat 🙂

I run forefoot in heavily cushioned Nike air's with no issues.

Me too.

When I'm running fast I'm on my forefoot, for long distance, I'm all over the place, use normal cheapy Adidas for everything.

I'm also a fan of start slowly and finish slowly ( I make sure I just walk around for a bit after a long run rather than just stop )

Local trails start a handy 10min walk from my front door, which makes for a perfect warm up / cool down. Still usually take the first km or so easy, though.

if I don't stretch after running I can barely walk the next day. Should I stop?

Funny, I'm the [b]complete[/b] opposite. If I stretch post-run then for the following couple of days I can barely walk. Don't do it and the next day I'll be fine.

Does the video tell me if I should by either;

1) Newton Distance Racers (because that's what's trendy in triathlon circles)

or

2) some Nike Flyknit Racers (because they're pretty blinging)

?

WackoAK - Member

Good to see that he says you can forefoot run with cushioned shoes, too many people try forefoot with minimalist shoes and hate it (because it hurts their feet). I run forefoot in heavily cushioned Nike air's with no issues.

i've found a 'flat' sole does make it a *little* easier to run downhill maintaining a forefoot strike.

and a big squidgy sole makes it a little trickier to pick my way through rocks/roots.

and the kind of shoe that has a big squidgy sole is useually to narrow for me.

but yes.

surfer - Member

Good slide on barefoot running and good to have the myth exposed again and the benefit of having shoes fitted in a specialised shop.

did you see the bit where he suggested barefoot training might be a good idea if you're suffering from foot pain?

did you see the bit where he suggested barefoot training might be a good idea if you're suffering from foot pain?

Nope, reserve the right to change my comments once I have watched the whole thing.

He seemed quite open to barefoot/minimalist running, just seemed to see it as a tool for improving technique for some, which is pretty much how I see it. But he was also saw how it has become a fad, and certainly didn't see it as required for all.

He was much more dismissive of pronation correction shoes and foam rollers.

I'm in the warm up pre/cool down post camp. Simple light warmups pre run consist of light jogging for about 1k until my breathing settles, then the run, then I cool down about 1k from the end.
No stretches, nadda.
I trail run so most of my run consists of offroad where obsticles invariably control your pace.

Just about to look into the "barefoot" craze, suspect it's not an option for me offroad though.

[i]But he was also saw how it has become a fad, and certainly didn't see it as required for all.[/i]

Weird, I tried flat shoes and they just hurt, thought it was me but speaking with people in my running club, loads of us have tried them and all of us have gone back to regular padded shoes, even the fast guys

Just about to look into the "barefoot" craze, suspect it's not an option for me offroad though.

No reason why it can't be done. Something to bear in mind though; I went for a run around the woods on Sunday with a friend who is heavily into the ‘bare foot’ stuff. I couldn’t see much difference between the sole on his €120 ‘bare foot’ shoes and my €40 cross country spikes.

How do we know that the stuff in the video isn't the myth? I just read about a sbig study that showed the idea of support to 'correct' over or under pronation was bobbins.

Good to see that he says you can forefoot run with cushioned shoes

Yep, but a thick heel makes it a bit harder for obvious reasons. I went looking for flatter shoes, that was when I found out all this barefoot controversy.

I have some Innov8 trail shoes that are fairly cushioned sturdy shoes, but more or less flat.

thought it was me but speaking with people in my running club, loads of us have tried them and all of us have gone back to regular padded shoes, even the fast guys

Funny how people differ - I'm a right fat bastard, and my minimal shoes (not as minimal as some mind) are way more comfy than padded ones, I don't get any pain. Well, apart from a blister or two sometimes.

Maybe it's because I'd never done much running in normal shoes so I didn't have to re-learn much.

start gently, work hard, and end gently

have a beer

works for all sports

Over the years my approach has been not to stretch but to "warm up" and "cool down"

Plus one. I just extended the runs to include the warm up / cool down. Seemed to make perfect sense to me, and for me at least it definitely works. Of course I might just be hard as nails*

Be quite interested to watch this tonight.

*Unlikely on a tremendous scale

have a beer

Recovery ale 😀

360p? C'mon! I don't care how scientific you are, if you cannot upload a 720p video to Youtube, then GTFO 😡

and the benefit of having shoes fitted in a specialised shop.

Just read what I wrote. I meant to say that I think this is not required and is also a myth

Aye - I did wonder Surfer. He does not think that fancy shoes make much sense.

For warming down - is this aimed specifically at the muscles you've just used or is it more of a general systemic thing?
Like say you cycled to a running race, legged it round, then cycled back at an easy pace; or vice verca. Would this be as effective a warm down as jogging home from the running race?

@Garry_lager pretty much I suppose. its about continuing to pump the blood as much as anything else.

If I don't pre stretch ill get 2 km and my hip will start hurting, agree with everything apart from that

But if there's no pain the next day, then no weakness has left my body. 😕

did you see the bit where he suggested barefoot training might be a good idea if you're suffering from foot pain?

Not really. I dont think he advocated barefoot training other than the point on the slide unless I missed it and he was rightly dismissive of the "fad" of barefoot running.

Funny how people differ - I'm a right fat bastard

I always imagined you as a small, wiry character mol!

Every coach / trainer I've had for every sport includes a warm up and down both of which include stretching. I'm currently having physio after a knee injury and likewise stretching is a core element especially after using the muscle rehab machine. I think I'll stick with years of experience rather than a video on the Internet

I'm not too sure placing every coach you've had has recommended stretching and you're recovering from a knee injury in the same paragraph gives the message you were intending 🙂

What's a muscle rehab machine?

Anyway, isn't there a difference between stretching to increase range of mobility (ie to achieve optimum bio-mechanic efficiency) and flapping around after you've done a bit of training?

The former being done by holding stretches for up to 3 minutes, to tear muscle fibres and is much like any weight training.

The latter just being a bit of a waste of time.

I'm currently having physio after a knee injury and likewise stretching is a core element especially after using the muscle rehab machine. I think I'll stick with years of experience rather than a video on the Internet

Well "years of experience" and "a video on the internet" are not mutually exclusive.
I saw a physio recently for (a persistent achilles injury) the first time as my usual physio wasnt available. She started to tell me about how I should stretch and in a roundabout way I asked what these stretches would achieve and she couldn't explain.
Some of the other things she recommended were fine and she highlighted some areas that could have been contributory so it was worthwhile however old habits die hard!

This video didnt tell me much new (other than the ITB being adhered to the Femur!) as I have never been a big fan of stretching even post exercise and there is evidence to show it can even contribute to injuries.

I'd pretty much agree with most that through my own experience over the last few years. Buy my shoes online now, I run forefoot in cusioned albeit low drop trainers, and I have stopped streching as I also think it was contributing to my previous injuries.

However, foam rolling has always seemed to work for me as a method of relieving ITBS. the muscles certainly seem less 'hard' afterwards and the pain over the outside of the knee disappears. So I personally find it hard to believe it doesn't work!

the muscles certainly seem less 'hard' afterwards and the pain over the outside of the knee disappears. So I personally find it hard to believe it doesn't work!

I dont think he is saying it doesnt work at all I think he said it may have some limited benefit. I think there is evidence to indicate that cetain types of massage have benefit and maybe the roller is providing that.

Isn't he saying that a golf ball, or anything that's more targeted, would be better than using a foam roller in just one plain of movement?

For those of you who are interested this is about the best explanation that i've found of how foam rolling might reduce pain. http://www.bettermovement.org/2013/how-does-foam-rolling-work/

The former being done by holding stretches for up to 3 minutes, to tear muscle fibres and is much like any weight training.

Wooooooooaaaahhhhhh there tiger. Is that really what you believe? Tearing stuff is never a good idea.

Isn't he saying that a golf ball, or anything that's more targeted, would be better than using a foam roller in just one plain of movement?

He is saying that most of what is considered to be ITBS problems isn't. The ITB itself can't be affected by rollering or stretching. Rollering is just massage, which may help some muscle soreness.

How do muscles grow Glupton?

I thought it was through a process of being broken down, aka microscopic tears if you like. Then a load of sciencey stuff happens and they repair themselves.

That is a very good question and one which you could spend many years trying to get an accurate answer to. It isn't through tearing them though.

Your answer really hasn't satisfied the question.

So,

How does one go about lengthening, say, their hip flexor, to counteract long days spent in an office chair and ensure optimum running efficiency?

What process occurs?

molgrips - Member
the idea of support to 'correct' over or under pronation was bobbins.

+1 in theory and practice but allows runners to be sold stuff they dont need!

Yep, but a thick heel makes it a bit harder for obvious reasons

+1 again. I find that Asics DS trainers/race are a very good balance. Pretty flat, some cushioning for longer runs (trainers more than race), no barefoot BS mark-up, and work a treat.

Why the need to argue over stretching? All pretty odd IMO. The body needs to warm up and cool down - just pick appropriate exercise/stretches to suit. FWIW, as I have got older I find stretching and warming down more important but not at the expense of excluding a warm up.

My answer was the best realistic answer that there is. Anyone who claims to know the exact process is talking nonsense.

I always imagined you as a small, wiry character mol

Haha... Well I'm not particularly fat as such.. Just sort of dense, really, and a bit fat 🙂

Re the shoes, I've found that my NB minimus trail really do let my foot flex and work, which I quite like. I'm not going to claim it'll prevent injuries, I don't know. The lack of cushioning gives me some sore spots at times but cushioning now feels so wrong that I will put up with that. I can't see me doing anything other than getting a new pair when these wear out.

emsz - Member

Weird, I tried flat shoes and they just hurt, thought it was me but speaking with people in my running club, loads of us have tried them and all of us have gone back to regular padded shoes, even the fast guys

That's because TEH EVIL SHOE INDUSTRY has ruined your feet already, so you need to keep buying their expensive shoes (incidentally, it's absolutely fine to use this argument even when you're wearing more expensive minimal or "barefoot" shoes)

Minimal shoes aren't necessarily more expensive are they? I'm sure mine were the same price as ordinary shoes.

Nope, but they can be more expensive (I got the "teh industry is forcing you to wear expensive shoes!!1!oNE!" while wearing my £30 decathlon numbers)

glupton, that was genuinely interesting. more of these type of threads would be great. i may even ask questions...

As well as running for too many years to count I worked in a specialist shoe shop for 3 years part time whilst at Uni.
The shoe people walked out with is usually the one I sold them! that may or may not have been the best shoe for them.
I always did my best to understand the person and their requirements but it is rubbish to think that going to a specialist shoe shop has much value other than being able to try on a range of shoes.

Normal shoes can be super expensive pseudo high tech bolleaux too though can't they?

Surely it's just a case of over marketing, just like any other kit in any sport?

Normal shoes can be super expensive pseudo high tech bolleaux too though can't they?

What do you mean by "normal"? Considering the tech that goes into them I dont know if they are poor value, some of them certainly have questionable technology. I mainly tun in Nike Air shoes as I like the forefoot cushioning and they are almost always neutral. Although I have had pronation control shoes as well but given there is little heel contact when I run its academic.

just like any other kit in any sport?

Yes and no. Buying an over marketed piece of clothing is one thing but shoes are very important during running and can have a serious affect on your well being. Although other than things like those 5 fingers jobbies most shoes designed for running are unlikely to cause you injury even if they do cause blisters etc if you get it wrong.

Well VFF is an interesting idea.. I think the principle of those is that they deliberately make it so uncomfortable to heel strike heavily that it forces you not to do it - rather like running in bare feet on tarmac.

In theory at least.

Just went for a run, picking one's feet up really makes a huge difference.

surfer - Member
Considering the tech that goes into them....

Really?

picking one's feet up really makes a huge difference.

Particularly when you consider the alternative 🙂

Well you can pick them up just enough to clear the ground, or you can pick them up a lot higher...

A "lot" higher is wasteful

but, with your foot lifted higher, your leg is 'shorter', and therefore easier to swing forwards.

if the energy required to lift your foot is less than the energy required to swing your shortened leg forward, then you're better off with a high lift.

(there's a lot of factors to consider, there's probably a graph/phd or 2 in there somewhere.)

Anything that is not propelling you forward is generally a waste of energy. I have a mate who is a lot fitter than me. We recently did a 5km race together, having never run together before. I saw from the start that his running style was about the least efficient I've ever seen. Due to this I spent 4.5km toying with him, before leaving him for dead. I eventually beat him by about 30 seconds.

The difference - my technique is much more efficient - my running club at school Steve Ovett as a coach while I was there.

but, with your foot lifted higher, your leg is 'shorter', and therefore easier to swing forwards.

Yeah, much easier, it seems. But again this is probably one of those things that depends on the person. My legs are hue and very heavy, so letting my feet come up closer to my bum seems to really help the leverage. And it's not really lifting them up, it's easy to let them sort of swing that way on their own.

It also seems to be easier to 'engage my glutes'.. at least I think.

Maybe I should make a video 🙂 The flicking up of feet seems to happen automatically if I go faster, so running faster is now much easier, but simultaneously much harder. I hit the limits of my lungs whilst my legs are still happy.

It also seems to be easier to 'engage my glutes'..

If it was you that I was advising on this before then you should really post a before and after video so we have a comparison.

It was me, and once I can figure out how to video myself I will 🙂

One of our finest! Not worrying about "engaging" his Glutes, just being awesome! 😉

[img] [/img]

God, I shuffle along barely raising my feet off the Tarmac LOL!

Thinking about the price, my Innov8 F195 were the most I've ever paid for running shoes and they were £90! I've gone back to regular cheapy addidas ( they seem to be most comfy for me) at £35 in the sale ( they're red and orange, awful colours but cheap!!

I paid about $70 odd for my fancy gullible idiot over hyped nonsense NB shoes.

Emsz you leg probably weighs as much as my arm.

I saw a video by Joe Friel about running technique which certainly suggested that a high(ish) leg lift is more efficient. The basic theory of which was that you lift your leg up and basically fall forwards letting gravity pull your leg down to make contact with the ground and scoot your foot backwards, not overextending the backwards motion to push off.

I probably haven't explained it very well there, and from what I recall it was more about running efficiency for running a marathon at the end of an ironman, where energy conservation is more important than generating the speed of a 1500 metre runner.

I'd heard that falling forward was good but always found it hard to do. Bringing my feet up higher seems to make it easier and more natural.

Your over thinking it. Just go out and run and it will take care of itself

Your over thinking it. Just go out and run and it will take care of itself

Maybe you naturally have a good running technique. Personally I am a big guy with size 50 feet, not really built for the endurance sports that I have grown to enjoy, and finding small improvements in technique can add up.

As Surfer says - go out and run and the rest will take care of itself. I vary my technique during my runs, sometimes I go for the high cadence shuffle that some marathon runners use to great effect, sometimes I go for the short lever approach that has been mentioned a few posts back (bringing swinging foot close to arse) and sometimes just to show me how inefficient it is I go for a higher knee approach. Try varying your running style - you'll soon find out what works for you. There are no definites in exercise.

As Surfer says - go out and run and the rest will take care of itself. I vary my technique during my runs, sometimes I go for the high cadence shuffle that some marathon runners use to great effect, sometimes I go for the short lever approach that has been mentioned a few posts back (bringing swinging foot close to arse) and sometimes just to show me how inefficient it is I go for a higher knee approach. Try varying your running style - you'll soon find out what works for you. There are no definites in exercise.

That's quite a contradiction, you say just go out and run, then explain how you work on different techniques to see which works best.

It's not a contradiction when you think about it. I go out and just ride my bike, part of just just riding my bike is dicking about to try different things and see how they work out. Think of it as the ministry of silly runs.

Maybe you naturally have a good running technique

I do 😀 It came about through years of running every day and plenty of faster running on the track. It doesnt mean I am fast but form comes with use. I am not having a pop but generally form comes with more mileage and particularly with higher speed running as inefficiencies naturally iron themselves out.
Thats my experience

No matter how you try to word it, "trying different things to see how they work out" is working on your technique.

I do It came about through years of running every day and plenty of faster running on the track. It doesnt mean I am fast but form comes with use. I am not having a pop but generally form comes with more mileage and particularly with higher speed running as inefficiencies naturally iron themselves out.
Thats my experience

Yeah, but some of us don't have that background and would like to shortcut the process by learning from the experience of others. I admit it can be hard to work through the guff to get to the real good information, but also just ignoring all the available information and pretending that good technique just comes natural is bollocks.

I would like to do an ironman next year, there is no way I will be able to do that if I don't try and learn to improve the way I run. I can do the cycle leg, I have learned what cadence works for me, as that is the one I have been doing for quite a while. I have clear goals about improving my swimming technique. Why should I treat running any different

Your over thinking it. Just go out and run and it will take care of itself

I'm really not, I'm just doing the same as Glupton. Varying stuff to see what works.

If I had never thought about it, I would not be running as I would have given up due to hating the whole experience. Those who are naturally good runners have no concept of how ****ing grim it can be for others!

I would like to do an ironman next year, there is no way I will be able to do that if I don't try and learn to improve the way I run.

My advice to you would be to go out and dick about with your running style - see what works best for you.