[Closed] Running for beginners 2 - when does the magic happen?

Theory has it, that longer stride means that you land with a straightened out leg, and therefore slow yourself rather than run faster, faster cadence with a nice kick and knee lift is much more preferable, however, I can't do it at all.

It never gets easier, it's all about mind games from now on in 🙂

You allude to single speeding, but don't see how it's the same thing? Walk, jog, run, sprint - all in the same "gear".

You run faster by running faster... Trying to do it takes lots of effort and comes with time - no quick wins. Intervals, fartlek, hill repeats and tabata are your friends - though they won't feel like it at the time.

What he said and sounds like a fair while.

How long did you stop running/exercising for? I only did the odd run then took it up gradually a few years ago, it wasn't as bad as you're getting it.

I think if there's magic, it happens to other people... I've improved a lot, got faster, more endurance, but I'm must no good at it. I just do it badly faster, and deal with the hardship better.

I find it strange to run slower

There's a lot to this. Running faster can create better biomechanics and a much better stride. I actually feel great bounding along at about a 6m pace, but I can only keep it up for about 800m then I'm buggered.

Not wanting to sound ungrateful, all advice welcomed, but you kind of miss the point. Paulsoxo got it. I wanted to know what the wisdom is about [u]how[/u] to run faster, not what training programs I need to follow (at this stage). So taking your suggestions for a mo - yes, if I want to get faster, fartlek is one method but HOW do you run faster, do your legs turn over faster, or do you increase your stride length?

I did say singlespeed excepted, that's a bad analogy because you can't increase your mechanical advantage ('take longer strides') the only way to go faster is cadence. On a geared bike you have both options and generally we use 'longer strides' ie: gear up and go at broadly the same cadence.

cynic-al;

I didn't stop exercising, I took up cycling instead of running. I was a 'runner' 15-20 years ago (23 mins 5K / 49min 10K / 1:42 half marathon) So not a good runner, but like I said, i could go out and run for miles and miles without finding it hard.

I can't help but think you're being a bit obtuse.

It's like someone asking how you cycle faster; but don't give me training programmes to get me fitter - do you just like... move your legs faster? Or is there some magic whereby you shout loudly and somehow that makes you fast? (STRA....)

Yes. You increase your cadence and / or you lengthen your stride. I suppose part of this is pushing off with more force to increase your cadence What proportion you do these in depends on the terrain and your running style.

The best way to train to run faster is to practice running faster. If you really struggle with the concept try picking a very steep hill and running down it.

Both. An increase in leg speed will throw you further forward which increases you stride. Maybe.

Try lifting you knees higher and moving your arms faster and you travel across the ground faster.

I totally undrrstand what you're trying to ask btw I just don't really know i just do it reasonably well with very little thought or effort.

Try this - run at the speed you want to run at, that feels good mechanically, and keep that speed until you have to stop. Wait 3 mins then go again. I find this trains your muscle memory in running fast, rather than plodding, and over time you'll be able to go longer between stops. And if you slow down a bit you'll be able to run continuously.

I can't help but think you're being a bit obtuse.

It's like someone asking how you cycle faster; but don't give me training programmes to get me fitter - do you just like... move your legs faster? Or is there some magic whereby you shout loudly and somehow that makes you fast? (STRA....)

Sorry if it seems like that. I don't mean to be and others seem to understand. But the cycling analogy is a good one. If someone (like for example my kids) asked me how to make their bike go faster I wouldn't give them a training plan. I'd tell them to stick with a cadence around 80-100 and use gears to increase the speed across the ground. I wouldn't just say 'ride faster', that's a result not a how.

Yes, of course in time to go faster you have to get fitter, but I could make a cyclist go very slow by using gears incorrectly, and for the same fixed level of fitness I could make someone go faster by proper use of gears. I've never had a running lesson, I don't know 'how' to run faster, hence why I'm asking.

Interval training will help you run faster in the long run, its essentially getting your body used to working in the higher (anaerobic) HR zones rather than the lower (fat burning/aerobic ) zones so improving your CV fitness

Also make sure your upper body is doing something, when I was getting physio for my knee, he watched me run and commented that I would be much faster and smoother if I used my arms in conjunction with my legs. So now I try to pin my elbows back and use them to help drive my legs forwards. It takes some getting used to and you have to exaggerate it at first but then it becomes normal and you find a happy medium.

I've found that moving into more mid to fore foot striking has naturally made me move faster and made running feel much smoother. I've made that transition by running up a lot of hills (because that's what's out my front door) which has strengthened my calves. I've found I feel much less impact on my knees running now and it feels easier on my joints until my lungs blow out!

moving into more mid to fore foot striking

NOOOOOOOOOO

I am having trouble getting my running going again as well.

I have now resorted to interval runs - run 100 paces, then sprint 50, then gasp until breath is more normal, then repeat. For nearly 3 miles.

That seems to be going better than I expected.

As for normal runs I have been tempted to go for distance whereas I think I should keep the distance down but run at a faster pace, and then hope that I can extend that pace for more distance.

i.e. I have defaulted to junk miles again as it is too easy, and it just messes you up.

The 2XU tights I am wearing to run in do seem to do their job as well, quite impressed.

And running every day doesn't seem to work either, at least for the longer runs. Every other day is better.

The magic started happening for me once I started running for more than 30 mins.
Hill training is good.

I ran a lot, for a few years, then stopped completely and just rode my bike for a couple of years. When I started running again it took about 3 months to feel any kind of 'flow' and about 6 months before I actually felt like I was running properly.

I think a big part of the adjustment is getting used to the type of muscle contractions that dominate in running vs cycling. The eccentric loading is savage in running and until your muscles can cope with that they just don't work properly... combining that with the strength to hold a technique that makes use of the elastic energy in your tedons (without getting injured) was my eventual key.

In terms of advice, stick at it, don't rush (you'll get injured) and it'll come back. I also wouldn't think too much about your running technique, it'll come.

Good luck!

So, when's the magic going to happen and I'll suddenly find I can run at an 'easy' pace without feeling it? Still too early

I reckon you shouldn't be too far away from it. Once I'm fit enough to do about 20 minutes without stopping/walking it feels 'easier' and I can also just keep on running if my head's right.

As others mentioned above - running up hills helps me a lot with overall running fitness, and makes me faster on the flat.

Given that you've been running for 5 weeks I think you're still about 2 months away yet. I think the fact that you ran 20 years ago is pretty irelevant TBH. I reckon going from nothing (which essentially you are) to a "runner" takes that long at least

Running faster? Move your legs quicker...you know the difference between jogging and sprinting? Aim for the sprinting end of the spectrum. Although I wouldn't worry about faster, you don't need to worry about it, you'll just increase the chance of injuring yourself

The magic started happening for me once I started running for more than 30 mins.

This ^

Given that you've been running for 5 weeks I think you're still about 2 months away yet.

and this ^

Cheers everyone, I think! Although maybe not the ones who think I'm obtuse ( 😉 ) or the ones who say i have to poke up with this for 2 months more before it gets 'easy'. That wasn't the answer I wanted. I'm looking for the magic sooner than that please!

I read a bit about it on running websites last night and seems that while there isn't a definitive answer, there's more to suggest that increasing cadence is better than increasing stride length, particularly if you do it artifically and reach out in front of you - because then you get the braking / pole vault effect Paulosoxo mentioned. Also interesting was that when you run your feet don't go in straight lines from strike to strike; they actually proscribe an arc (seen from the side) and like any arc, the bigger the diameter the bigger the arc length for a given angle. Hence as we get stronger and have bigger knee lifts that's how we get longer stride lengths, rather than using more angle*

Which taught me something, because I've always thought that keeping feet low to the ground would be more efficient, rather than wasting energy raising and lowering them.

* although angle is a factor if you have poor hip flexibility, which is often the case in cyclists apparently.

5 weeks is nothing. It will hurt and feel wrong for ages. Like above I would say 3-6 months it will start to feel like you can go out and it not feel awkward 6 months + to get any kind of form. It's taken me about a year to get to what I think are respectable min/mile time.

Just like biking the more weight your carrying makes a big difference too. I've lost 2kg in the last month and a bit. It's made running feel much easier, and my legs ache less

Edit: OP just read your last post. Stop thinking about it too much (and trying to create explanations that are not needed) just get fitter and lighter, speed will then come.

Stop thinking about it too much (and trying to create explanations that are not needed) just get fitter and lighter, speed will then come

But I enjoy the science of sport. I also like to take things apart and see why they work. I've never been a 'it just does' person, in any walk of life. Why deny myself that enjoyment?

Speaking as some who has been lambasted on many running threads for over thinking it - running was always hell until I thought about my foot strike. As above, mid or forefoot transformed things. I had been heel striking in front of my body which is terrible.

Interval training, maintain upper body form (no slouching), lean very slightly forward and increase cadence. But mainly interval training. Or fartlek, which is fairly similar.

I'd say once you can run 10K (suffering, but not dying) you'll find 5K easy. When you can run 21K you'll find 10K easy. Hills will make running on the flat easier.

Fwiw, I went for a run a few weeks ago with a friend who is a way faster runner than I and who used to compete and I noticed two things. His stride rate was faster and he leaned slightly forwards when running where I am very upright. I can't get my stride rate any faster without just getting in loads more km I think

I found distance/speed was purely a fitness thing not a 'learning to run' thing if that makes sense.

Back when I was ~14 stone and fit I could go out for a 5 mile run and not really think about it, it'd ache for days afterwards but if I had a spare evening it was as good a use for it as any.

Now that I'm 16stone and less fit it's really bloomin' difficult. I can still ride at a reasonable pace in a group but running has gone out the window.

So from that I'm concluding that it's easier to kid yourself about fitness on a bike than it is running. I actualy had to go back to week 1 from about where you are and I think I've damaged something in my foot as it's getting more and more painfull in the mornings!

I found distance/speed was purely a fitness thing not a 'learning to run' thing if that makes sense.

It does, that's what i mean about the 'magic' happening. At some point (but please god early than another 3 months!) the muscle fitness and suppleness will catch up with the heart and lungs and I'll be able to run without feeling like it's hard.

You riding with the THT tonight? - hoping to make it over this week, we can compare blisters and aches.

I forgot to add stretching is almost as important as running itself. Dont be afraid to swap a run for a stretching session if you are struggling to summoun the energy or enthusiasm for a run. Make it a good 30 min session though with varied stretches, quads, glutes, hamstring etc etc and maybe some very light step-type activity too.

There are a few tricks that work FOR ME if I want to run faster. Bear in mind I am not a fast runner, most comfortable plodding along averaging 5:30/km, so maybe these work for slow runners rather than those who already speedier.

1. I speed up if I run purely on my tip-toes. Generally I'm a foot-slapper.
2. Or I can lean forward a bit.
3. Or I can move my arms straight forward/back rather than let them swing diagonally across my body as they tend to do.
4. Or sometimes when I consciously swing my arms faster it seems my legs then try to catch up.

But yeah, cadence rather than stride length. Good luck!

Sorry if it seems like that. I don't mean to be and others seem to understand. But the cycling analogy is a good one. If someone (like for example my kids) asked me how to make their bike go faster I wouldn't give them a training plan. I'd tell them to stick with a cadence around 80-100 and use gears to increase the speed across the ground. I wouldn't just say 'ride faster', that's a result not a how.

How would you tell your son to ride a singlespeed faster? Would it be nominally much different from "spin your legs faster, but dont worry it will take time to be fit enough to do that"?

Yes, of course in time to go faster you have to get fitter, but I could make a cyclist go very slow by using gears incorrectly, and for the same fixed level of fitness I could make someone go faster by proper use of gears. I've never had a running lesson, I don't know 'how' to run faster, hence why I'm asking.

I think that's a false comparison you're making - we don't have gears. Of course, telling your son to try and get up mont ventoux in his highest gear is silly but that's akin to me giving you the advice of "don't run only on your right foot thats called hopping and it isn't very fast at all", or "run with your head pointing in the direction you want to go not backwards".

You're asking for a shortcut to making running easier. Well; everyone (including me) has given it to you; get fitter and get used to running faster; by a structured training programme that primarily involves interval/fartlek training. Then, when fitter, if you want, you can run slowly and feel like it's easy. But you won't feel good about your run; so you'll run faster and it will be just as hard.

There are; as you say; some simple tips that can make a small difference - moving your arms parallel to your body not to waste energy, remaining relaxed in the upper body, leaning forward and increasing cadence rather than over-striding, but I honestly believe these are the 0-5% category. The rest is just sweat, pain and discomfort.

Then again - I wouldn't choose to run if I didn't have to for work; as much as I can I try and retain my fitness by any other means; so perhaps you're just ingesting my vitriol at running itself!

With regard to stride length, I had itb band issues earlier in the year which took me to a physio to sort out.

During the consultation I mentioned how I ofeten have really sore calves by the end of a half marathon.

His suggestion was to lengthen my stride until I could *feel* I was starting to use my hammies then shorten my stride by an inch. This way you are spreading the load between your calves and your ham strings.

I'm now running significantly faster (half mara down from 2 hours to 3:40ish) with seemingly less effort.

It does, that's what i mean about the 'magic' happening. At some point (but please god early than another 3 months!) the muscle fitness and suppleness will catch up with the heart and lungs and I'll be able to run without feeling like it's hard.

You riding with the THT tonight? - hoping to make it over this week, we can compare blisters and aches.

I've said yes, but need to spin it past her indoors. I'm out 3 nights a week at the moment with either the Trolls or sailing and sailing again on Sundays so my brownie points are running low, especially with a house move looming. I'm scraping the barrel down to "I need some break from work/packing, I've not had a rest day in weeks this is my down time", and "who do you think's paying for all this s***" whilst waving removals quotes.

get fitter and get used to running faster; by a structured training programme that primarily involves interval/fartlek training

One more thing - think about gait. It IS possible to be doing it all wrong, and this can make it murderously difficult and unpleasant. You may not have experienced this but I have. And I think this is what the OP is getting at. There is surely a lot of bolx spouted about gait, but there is a kernel of truth in it. And not just for pro athletes either. If you're doing it wrong enough, then changing gait can make a big difference even for a a plodder who wants to be quicker.

either the Trolls or sailing and sailing again on Sundays

where do you sail if you live around the trolls area ?