[Closed] Runners: shinsplints = running shoes worn out?

I've always imagined that shinsplints was due to too hard a heel strike

(then again, I know sweet FA about running)

It could be a sign, but there are lots of things that can cause shin splints, mine used to be too much speed work or doing speed work too soon when not quite fit enough.

I'd get the shoes changed anyway just in case.

I have a 2nd pair so I'll use them consistently and see how it goes.

Shame to bin them, and they ain't cheap...

flexy non heel strike type

If there's no padding/support in them, then there's nothing to wear out, Shirley? Unless the tread is worn through, then they're still serviceable. The only reason they suggest you should change "normal" trainers regularly is because the support wears out and changes your gait.

Personally, i'd look elsewhere. I don't think the trainers are the problem here.

I've been told this. Admittedly by a running shop. But having said that the problem did go away when I bought new shoes.

Upped/altered your training recently?

Lots of causes of shin splints, my physio found that my tibialis posterior was crazy tight, doing calf stretches with my big toe bent up against a step eased it off and improved things.

Personally yes, every time I got shin splints it was fixed by buying new trainers.

Shame to bin them, and they ain't cheap...

if you mainly run on road, as I do, the shock absorption goes long before the uppers do, so you end up binning what look like almost new shoes.

No change to training, shoes aren't zero support, (Asics Gel lyte 33) and I guess I am a mid-foot striker - can't tell which of ball or heel lands first - so I guess it's the support in the heel that may be going.

It's a yes from me too, based on my experience. I get through a lot of shoes each year but have just come to accept that. When I replace running shoes they get cascaded down to gym shoes and are Ok for treadmill running and working out.

Just get rid of the shock absorbtion and make your foot do its job 🙂

I like the idea of that molgrips, got a marathon in 16 weeks though.

they have already done 700miles?

c'mon, you aint scottish, just get a new pair already.

I think he is Scottish actually?

Scotland resident Norn Irish person.

15p a mile, it grates 😡

[i]Just get rid of the shock absorbtion and make your foot do its job[/i]

says the bloke who only this week was complaining of knee pain... 😉

Agree with old nick, seeing a sports podiatrist is a good idea. Do you run with headphones? If so, stop. Listen to how you run and try to run quietly. Will probably ruin your calves for a while but should make a big difference. In the mean time try massaging a nice cube down your shin until it all melts after every run.

says the bloke who only this week was complaining of knee pain...

Yeah that used to happen when I had cushioned shoes too 🙂

As for running quietly - when running through busy areas I get funny looks at my feet cos of the tap-tap-tap noise it makes.

[i]Yeah that used to happen when I had cushioned shoes too [/i]

but wait...Barefoot running hasn't cured you?...but but but you said!!

Not had shin splints for about 2 years, got them a couple of nights ago. For me it was running in shorts, cold legs and starting off ruining downhill.

Stretching apparently makes a big difference.

Barefoot running hasn't cured you?...but but but you said!!

What did I say?

[i]What did I say?[/i]

About the benefits of barefoot running? Over the years I've read your posts on just about every running thread, is there anything you haven't said?

I haven't said it cures all injuries.

Usually I take care to talk about the theory behind it. I don't say that it will prevent injuries, not in the least. A lot of people think it will, but I couldn't say.

I also say that some of the principles helped me a lot, which is true. So naturally then I would speak favourably of it to others.

Molgrips, chill, sorry I'm pulling your chain.

Most people who run anything like seriously have given them a go, most people in the clubs and races I go to have binned them and gone back to regular shoes as well. For some folk I think they're of "some benefit" for most I'd say there isn't, I could be wrong, but then so are 99.9% of folk who don't run in them for any long periods and now use them as trainers to do the gardening in...

Have you seen that advert on here for Reebok Cross majigys ?
They look good plus badass in red & black

It does annoy me a bit when people just put on a pair of minimal shoes, run for a bit and then bin the idea. The whole point is that you change how you run which takes a lot of time and effort. If you aren't going to do that then save your money. And don't dismiss it based on that.

Personally I can't imagine how anyone who makes the switch properly would ever go back. Running with fat squishy things under my feet feels so completely wrong now!

When you changed your shoes was it like for like?
Or was there a change in the amount of support?

Has your routes / training suddenly changed, more climbing/descending / more speed work?

[i]Personally I can't imagine how anyone who makes the switch properly would ever go back[/i]

people run differently and for different reasons. I ran slower with them, so went back.

Oh god not another barefoot debate!

Not specifically shin splints but when I get niggles it's always when I start to build mileage in old shoes. 700 miles is a lot, doubt there is much cushioning left

I prefer minimal shoes to barefoot as most of my other running is in fell shoes. Even the transition wasnt overnight though. 700 miles sounds alot but the root cause is not your shoes.

Try some stretches and heel raises and pay for a private sports physio appointment

those asics 33's are big squishy shoes, you could easily hide a heel-strike in them, even* hide it from yourself. And if you are heel-striking, you're at the mercy of your shoes built-in squish. 700 miles is probably a lot / enough to wear them out.

replace them, run the marathon.

then think about flat shoes / changing your style / or not.

(*even/especially)

If marathon is 12 weeks from now, that'll be at least another 350(?) miles you'll be putting in to them between now and then anyway.

I'd get some new ones now, as barefoot or technique aside, they're probably knackered and your body has got used to training with a level of cushioning. Unless you're happy to risk missing the marathon I wouldn't do anything crazy like convert to barefoot. However don't dismiss the technique / strengthening benefits that a weekly 5k barefoot run may bring in a pair of pumps.

When you changed your shoes was it like for like?
Or was there a change in the amount of support?

Has your routes / training suddenly changed, more climbing/descending / more speed work?

Assuming you're tlaking to me - there was less support, less cushioning and no heel. The shoes just made it easier to run with a fore/mid strike. Having tried the old shoes again it's clear that the minimal shoes make my foot into a nice wide platform for running, which I like. And I don't like all the squishy stuff under my feet now. But for me the heel is the biggest thing. Oh and the minimal shoes are much lighter, and that's quite noticeable.

Has your routes / training suddenly changed, more climbing/descending / more speed work?

No, the big change for me was changing the foot strike - that was an instant improvement in everything. The shoes just work a bit better for that kind of strike. I've no idea if I'm quicker in the minimal shoes than the cusioned ones.

Point is that it takes a pretty long time for everything to adapt. Won't be quicker if you just stick a pair on. Doing lunchtime runs in London I see hundreds of runners every day but only one or two with minimal shoes on.

Sports Pod here!
It seems as if you have found the cure for the specific problem that causes your injuries. Patients that present with the same problem and have found the same cure are always advised the same thing... if you stat to get pain in shoes that have done 500 miles then you should have binned them at 400.

Have a look online for last years model of the same make and buy them that way if expense is the reason why you try to get as much out of your running shoes as you can.

Quick tip, have a look at the sole of you shoes at the heel, if the shoe is designed with a large protrusion of EVA sole at the heel counter then try swapping to one that has zero heel counter, or a vertical back to the shoe. This will shorten the arc that the foot travels in from heel strike to mid foot stance, and it will decrease the speed at which it does this, reducing the forces that can cause some shin splints.

Molly, not going to get into it here, and forefoot running does work for some, but in my professionl experience they are in the minority. The barefoot running fad has finally and thankfully run its course, and we will see less injurys now until the next big thing comes along, 29" shoes perhaps? :wink:. Not good for my bank balance though!

I'm interested in why you think it doesn't work for most people (genuine interest, not being sarcastic or argumentative). What injuries were you seeing due to lack of cushioning? Apart from blisters.

Going 'barefoot ' is more energy efficient some studies have found, but those studies have been done with experienced runners.

My average patient is certainly not that, and I would count experienced runners as those that do over or above 25K per week.

Injuries caused are many, mostly to the mid foot from fractures, soft tissue injuries, shin splints, avulsion and tendonosis injuries..

These injuries can occur during any running activity for those new to the sport and experienced runners, but the injuries in clinic from those who have just taken up barefoot running, or had been diong so for some time and presented with different overuse injuries were very noticable.

But, if it works for you and others then carry on! but next time you are watching any sort of athletic race of distance, have a good look to see how many true forefoot runners you see.

Most are mid-foot, it seems.

I'll admit that it is harder, because you have to get your body to do the work that your cushioned shoe would be doing. But isn't that the whole point of running anyway? Getting your body to do the work? 🙂

I am generally quite robust so perhaps that's why I have manged it fairly well. I'll admit that my calves are pretty sore this morning, but that's cos I did 10km yesterday and 10km the day before, which would have been inconcievable not that long ago.

No change to training, shoes aren't zero support, (Asics Gel lyte 33)

Trouble we didn't evolve to walk or run in dead straight lines on concrete or tarmac surfaces, or be as sedentary as we are now. barefoot running was seen by many as a quick fix, when losing weight as well as slowly building fitness levels is far more sustainable.

Trouble we didn't evolve to walk or run in dead straight lines on concrete or tarmac surfaces

Yes. 15 miles over the Brecon Beacons in the Fan Dance Race - tiring, but manageable, no sore tendons or anything.

13 miles on road in a half marathon - forget it, I can't even imagine it.

While the runnerists are here...

I started running as a December-challenge-thing but have had to stop because of pain right at the top of my shin, under the knee. Is this probably just a too much too soon thing, or am I destined to never be "a runner"?

(I went from run-walk for twenty minutes once a fortnight over a couple of months to running every day for a week ending with running 5k continuously in 25:28. That's probably too much, isn't it?)

But with the aid of technology and medicine (e.g. running shoes and physio in this context) we live much longer than when we did as cavemen and so to continue with the lifestyle to which we've become accustomed we may need a little help.

We don't know what the running 'lifespan' of the original barefoot runners was, they may have only had a service life of 10 years and then they're in the knackers yard. Which was probably quite good as I reckon the life expectancy of a human was probably only double that.

@ Miktually - running everyday is always potentially problematic as you're not giving yourself any time to recover.

IME go to a sports phyiso and get them to diagnose it. Best money you'll spend (assuming they're any good).

@ Miktually - running everyday is always potentially problematic as you're not giving yourself any time to recover.

It's pretty much better now, after a week of no running; I'm going to restart sensibly in the new year as I surprised myself by liking it.

But with the aid of technology and medicine (e.g. running shoes and physio in this context) we live much longer than when we did as cavemen and so to continue with the lifestyle to which we've become accustomed we may need a little help.

Well yes, but not all technological developments help our fitness. Cars and TV to name just two 🙂

The theory is that supporting your foot with a cushy shoe means that the muscles down there don't have to do their job so become weak and lead to problems. Like driving to the shops instead of walking. But the whole point of running is to do work, so it seems strange to me.

I am aware of the theory, and have tried it out. For me its an aid to training.

Very few of the people in my fell club run barefoot.

Fell shoes are much closer to being 'minimal' though anyway, aren't they?

I wonder if just occasionally one of these topics might not revert to form with such grinding predictability? I will defend free speech to the last. Except in this case.

Smiley, etc 😉

Hence my earlier post about 'Minimal' as opposed to 'Barefoot'. Basically I like a low heel dffernetial, maybe even zero, but I like to retain cushioning for the road, but as I don't like squishy soles I go for something firm that fits well e.g. racing flats.

My next road shoes are likely to be Saucony Kinvara 4's, but this will need to be validated by how they feel on the treadmill / road and also advice from the specialist running shop, who sell only neutral running shoes.

I need a bit of support in my shoes, barefoot shoes don't have any. Whilst I'm aware that I can develop this, TBH its not something I'm that bothered about doing.

My take on barefoot?

If it works yay! If it doesn't? Yay also. There are simply too many variables. Too many factors that we just don't know.

Running is nice, what you put on your feet is mostly no ones business but your own

molgrips - Member

Fell shoes are much closer to being 'minimal' though anyway, aren't they?

yes.

thin soles offer precision on the rocks, but not a lot of cushioning. They're usually very twisty/flexible too.

try running/scrambling quickly over a big pile of rocks, try landing on your heels, it's bloody horrible.

(and if you're landing on your toes, you really don't need your shoes to bring much squish to the party - although a little might be nice)

try running over rough ground* with a heel strike, see how far you get before you twist an ankle.

(*a cow-trampled field will do)

So regarding heel/mid/forefoot striking, what is the general thinking?

I have a continual soft tissue injury indside both legs (predominantly the right, but does occur in the left too after continued running) that I have self-diagnosed as compartment syndrome. I have seen physios / bio-mechanics and podiatrists and wear orthotics, but have not shifted it since it appeared while doing basic training in the TA 12 years ago.

I am a heavy heel striker, but am trying to shift to mid-foot striking after reading Chi Running, which makes a lot of sense to me. I also only run offroad - running on road brings on regular shinsplints very quickly.

The one thing that has helped noticeably is wearing compression socks, both for running and recovery. It hasn't stopped the injury occurring, but it has certainly reduced it and the healing process takes place a lot quicker.

In terms of consistency, I have stopped, started gently and built up and stopped numerous times, and now tend to do about two miles once a week in the woods.

Pieface, that's basically what I wear.

the specialist running shop, who sell only neutral running shoes.

Interesting. This is part of the same debate really. The fad is about barefoot running but really the debate should be about support, and how much. Sounds like your shop has weighed in.

Pimpmaster Jazz - Member

So regarding heel/mid/forefoot striking, what is the general thinking?

try something, you might like it?

but give it a chance.

(simply going for a 10k run in a new pair of vibram 5fingers, hoping to experience the nirvana of barefoot running is probably a bad idea, likely to end in disappointment, and crippling 3day DOMS...)

[i]So regarding heel/mid/forefoot striking, what is the general thinking?[/i]

There isn't one. That's mostly the issue. I've read countless journals, magazine articles, read any number of books both for and against, and the grand sum of most of them say "dunno, might help, might not" there is simply too many other things going on that have an impact to tell whether running with one part of your foot over another hitting the ground first makes any sort of difference whatsoever.

Any one who tells you different is trying to sell you something

I just prefer the feel / responsiveness of minimal shoes, thats my main thing.

The shop believe that you should deal with the route cause (posture / technique) rather than the symptom through structured shoes. Strangely though they are combined with a Physio's to helpt you do this....

But back to the OP, if you used to change the shoes at 500, why 700 now?

So regarding heel/mid/forefoot striking, what is the general thinking?

Well heavy heel striking is generally considerd to be not a good idea, I think. I started to run on my forefoot one day and it was so obvioulsy so much better, I just trained myself to run that way. I then went looking for shoes with low or no heel.

Your foot and calf is actually a complex shock absorber all on its own. If you wear minimal shoes you should become aware of how uncomfortable it is smashing your heels into the ground, and adapt your running to avoid this. In doing so, you'll start to use your foot as a shock absorber.

Some people don't do this though, continue to smash their feet into the ground and then conclude that minimal shoes are rubbish.

'Running light' has always been the advice, and that's all this really is.

Altra have combined the fads and have brought out a very cushioned (and also less so) flat shoe.

I like how they list 'Zero drop' as a technology 🙄

(simply going for a 10k run in a new pair of vibram 5fingers, hoping to experience the nirvana of barefoot running is probably a bad idea, likely to end in disappointment, and 3day DOMS...)

😆

Well heavy heel striking is generally considerd to be not a good idea, I think.

That was my understanding too - the idea of transmitting shock straight into the calves (and my injured area) seemed plain daft, but then I was also advised not to try and alter my running style too much as it's something we've done since childhood, so should be fairly sorted.

I'll continue with it (I am aware my posture isn't great too, so try and concentrate on that as well) and see how it goes.

Apologies for the hijack OP. 😉

[i]Well heavy heel striking is generally considerd to be not a good idea, I think.[/i]

There's evidence that says heel striking makes no difference, there's evidence that says heavy forefoot striking is just as bad, there's evidence that how hard you hit the ground may or may not make any difference at all.

Try lots of things, don't worry about it, stop if it hurts

The fad is about barefoot running but really the debate should be about support, and how much.

I genuinely don't really understand what people mean by a shoe providing 'support'. Could anyone elucidate?

I was also advised not to try and alter my running style too much as it's something we've done since childhood, so should be fairly sorted

The idea that we should have naturally found the ideal running style as kids is nonsense. I was one of the fittest strongest kids in my year all the way through school, but always really bad at distance running. I simply hated it and never did it. When I tried to change this I bought some cushioned shoes and went out heel striking because the cushioned heel allowed me to do it. And I stayed crap. I knew that running barefoot needed a different style, but I never had the opportunity to run a long distance barefoot because to run you put on running shoes. And running shoes had thick cushy heels. My problem was striking too far out in front and braking myself each time. Forcing a mid or forefoot strike made me stop doing this, which is why it helped so much.

Ian: support holds your foot in a particular position and cradles the instep. More support pushed up your instep more.

EDIT what awhiles says.

IanMunro - Member

I genuinely don't really understand what people mean by a shoe providing 'support'. Could anyone elucidate?

it's a word used to mean lots of things.

sometimes it means a shoe that is stiff - the sole doesn't flex much.

sometimes it means that the foot-bed is a sculpted 3D 'negative' of a foot - with lumps and bumps and hollows to accomodate the shape of your foot.

sometimes it means that the squishy-ness of the sole varies across the sole, to modify the movement of your foot/ankle/etc - a bit like having a mattress with a stiff side for him, and a soft side for her.

sometimes it means the way in which the shoe holds onto your foot.

and/or combinations of the above.

etc.

your favourite old slippers - no support whatsover.

new, stiff, walking boots with custom-fitted footbeds = lots of support.

Try lots of things, don't worry about it, stop if it hurts

I'm going with the things that hurt less at the moment. 😉

I would say that if it hurts like sore exercised muscles, keep doing it but take it easy and build up slowly.

If it hurts like you've properly injured something, then stop til it gets better and try again.

If you keep injuring something, then do something else 🙂

If you keep injuring something, then do something else

That's pretty much where it's at. 🙁

Pretty sure I know what causes it (over-pronation of the mid-foot, stretching and aggrevating the Flexor Digitorum Longus), so it's just finding a way of preventing it.

[i]Just[/i]. 😉

Try forefoot striking?

Pieface - Member
But back to the OP, if you used to change the shoes at 500, why 700 now?

They are both estimates of my own mileage but more importantly what the shop told me I'd get out of the individual (different) shoes,