[Closed] Run in with local gamekeeper.. And scottish access laws

Nothing helpful but what a prick.

I'd raise a complainant with his employer

Two words...Group Ride 😈

Hard to say really without the context of location and being there, but he was obviously a dick in the end, but probably spurred on by your comments to be more so.

Access rights are for responsible and respectful access. He may have had a point regarding the birds who may be habituated to him.

In that situation I'd have just held my tongue and carried on my way. Maybe said yeh, I'd noticed them so was trying to ride cautiously and not disturb them.

Anyhow…half of me thinks what a total dick, I have every right to go there. But a bit of me thinks perhaps he was right and I shouldn’t be going down that path whilst there are so many birds about.

If I was you I'd do homework on what the legal view is with respect to access and temporary closures. These ****ers will tell you anything to suit their agenda** so don't take it as true but definitely do your homework. Then if you are to make a complaint you're doing it from the moral and legal high ground.

** Local gamekeeper told me I shouldn't be riding where I was because it was an SSSI (Site of Special Scientific Interest) which was technically true - all 123 sq miles of the Dark Peak SSSI.

a bit of me thinks perhaps he was right and I shouldn’t be going down that path whilst there are so many birds about.

I'd agree, law or no it seemed a reasonable request. However...

him drivjng his quad at me at full pelt was really not on either.

... it was clearly an excuse and he didn't give a shit about the birds.

I’d raise a complainant with his employer

If someone intentionally drove a quad bike directly at me at speed, I’d be raising a complaint with the police.

If I was you I’d do homework on what the legal view is with respect to access and temporary closures.

One would assume that this being the case the closures would be well signposted and publicised. Were they?

Report it to the police. thats threatening behaviour at best, assult at worst and he has no right at all to try to remove you under access laws. If it was an endagered species then being responsible means avoiding them but grouse?

area? angus glens perhaps?

This seems like the relevant bit but I think they were pushing it really

The Access Code says:

The grouse shooting season runs from 12 August to 10 December, with most shoots taking place during the earlier part of the season. You can help to minimise disturbance by being alert to the possibility of shooting on grouse moors and taking account of advice on alternative routes. Avoid crossing land where a shoot is taking place until it is safe to do so.

Further information:

Grouse moors are common on the rounder, heathery hills of the central and eastern Highlands.

Responsible behaviour by land managers

The Access Code says:

Be aware of where recreational use is likely, such as along paths, popular routes and ridge lines. Where appropriate, tell people about where shooting is taking place by using signs and information boards (in accordance with this Code) to give on-the-day information on shoots and alternative routes.

https://www.outdooraccess-scotland.scot/practical-guide-all/field-sports/grouse-shooting

Scottish bird nesting seasons

+1 report to local police

FAC and SGC holders must not pose a threat to public safety. It doesn’t take much for them to lose their certificates, or fail to get them renewed. This would be a big problem for a gamekeeper. Perhaps it’s time this chap was reminded of this by his local police?

There was no closure, no signs, and there was no shooting going on.

Report it to the police

He wasn't aiming to hit me, but he was clearly doing it in a threatening manner. You don't accelerate as fast as you can down the middle of a narrow lane past a cyclist coming the other way for any other reason. That said I'm not sure the police will be particularly interested. Bit of a he said she said situation ... And reporting to his boss will probably earn him a clap on the back for trying to protect their investment.

Tj, raith estate in kirkcaldy..

Kirkcaldy oh boy

That said I’m not sure the police will be particularly interested.

In isolation perhaps not. But if he makes a habit of it and there's multiple complaints it's harder for them to ignore.

I mean, it's the second time it's happened just to you on that estate.

Arsehole.

Our local gamekeepers are pretty cool, they'll generally say exactly where the shoot will be that day, fine to ride anywhere else.

Fine with me building in the woods too, even with the chainsaw.

I'd have a word with the local council outdoor access officer, before the police.

One of the estates near me (south pentlands) has got a lot more 'aggressive' with signage, etc. since lockdown, saying no public right of way, etc. (Which is true, but doesn't stop responsible access). If there's an actual shoot on I don't mind going another way as although I'm not a fan of bloodsports they're currently legal so I'm not going to try and spoil someone else's idea of a hobby. Outside of shoots though you can pretty much go where you want as long as you're responsible. I'd say if you're riding on a track then the chances of you disturbing anything special is pretty slim. As noted above, best reported to the Police so at least it's logged but also cc the local outdoor access officer at the council too.

Access Officer regarding the attempt to stop you.

Police for the threatening behaviour.

Ground nesting birds. In September...

****.

I mean, it’s the second time it’s happened just to you on that estate

Different guy, but same place yeah. Last time round I just said fair enough I won't do it again, but on advice from folks on here that he had no right to stop me that's why I made a point of standing up for myself this time round.

Tbh I'm tempted to get the police involved purely so that he may think twice before giving me grief should I ever venture back

I’ve heard about that estate locally too so I don’t think it’s just you.

Where you just on one of the obvious tracks through the estate?

Ground nesting birds. In September…

****.

I have no idea when birds nest. There were an awful lot of them at side of road tbf. But they were fully grown..

Either way, I'm sure I'll be less of an annoyance to them than some rich city boy with a shotgun in a few months time!!

Where you just on one of the obvious tracks through the estate

Yep, main route. Pretty much tarmaced route through the estate. I wasnt ploughing thtough the undergrowth on my bouncy bike at full tilt or anything. I was literally pootling through, making sure no birds ran out in front of me!

If I was you I’d do homework on what the legal view is with respect to access and temporary closures

Temp closures need to be done legally and signed. You would not get a temp closure for this

Access - this is scotland. The guidence on shooting estates is as above. If they are shooting they can ask you to use a different route. Otherwise ie no shoot that day - its open access so long as you obey the golden rule.

I would have just laughed at his statement there's nesting birds in September - so that's why the shooting season starts in August then?

There's been very little shooting up here on Speyside, most pheasants have just ended up as roadkill...

Yeh I know where you mean.

Its no excuse, but I suspect part of the reason they’re so likely to go off the handle is having issues with kids all smashed up on Dragon Soop or whatever. So the just try and make it known as hostile ground.

Tbh I’m tempted to get the police involved purely so that he may think twice before giving me grief should I ever venture back

That’s what I’d do - the thought of losing there certificates can be a compelling incentive not to be a dick to people.

Greatape, As I recall you are a copper arent you? Would this not be deemed a waste of your time? As in, I have zero proof so the guy could just deny it, and there's not much the police can do.

But if you think it's worth reporting I'll follow your steer

I'd draw parallels with reporting dodgy or aggressive drivers. Enough reports can't be ignored, not reporting because of indifference won't move the situation on at all. The Peak District view on restrictions related to ground nesting (dogs on a short lead on open access land) cover March 1 to July 31.

Maybe I'm mistaken when I thought he said ground nesting. There were hundreds of birds and he had an issue with me disturbing them, but maybe I made up the ground nesting bit. But If not that, no idea what the issue is as it's not shooting season there yet

Its simply get off my land.

Local gamekeeper told me I shouldn’t be riding where I was because it was an SSSI (Site of Special Scientific Interest) which was technically true – all 123 sq miles of the Dark Peak SSSI.

Not correct at all. SSSI status does not impede your right of access at all. It just means both you, and landowner, have to be extra considerate and responsible. Your right of responsible access remains unchanged. Your sssi will have a management statement which will include a section on access. If the landowner wants to remove that right they still need legal exemption which is very rare. I know tots as I have recently been challenging the same issue (and posted a thread about it)

Greatape, As I recall you are a copper arent you? Would this not be deemed a waste of your time? As in, I have zero proof so the guy could just deny it, and there’s not much the police can do.

But if you think it’s worth reporting I’ll follow your steer

I am. If you reported that in the area I work then someone would go and have a word with him, emphasising the standards expected of an FAC holder (i.e. a thinly veiled threat 😏). You could ask to make a formal complaint and give a statement, but as you say, if he denies it there’s insufficient evidence for any charges. That’s if the correct individual can be identified. People often report things and ask that we speak to the culprit, which more often than not we’ll do. I don’t think that approach is a waste of time - he shouldn’t be behaving like that and a telling won’t do him (or the head keeper of the estate) any harm.

Whether they deal with things the same down in Fife, I don’t know I’m afraid. No harm in asking.

I have no idea when birds nest. There were an awful lot of them at side of road tbf. But they were fully grown..

Houns posted a link. Grouse nesting season is March / April to mid August, it ended over a month ago.

no idea what the issue is as it’s not shooting season there yet

Google would suggest it's from the 12th of August until the end of November so it would seem that it is. It might not have started on that particular estate though of course.

I suspect that these are freshly imported Grouse, ready to be shot.

I can't recall seeing many (any?) Grouse in the Lomonds or the Ochils, so large numbers of naturally occurring Grouse on the outskirts of Kirkcaldy seems suspicious to me.

I'm guessing the birds were actually partridges rather than grouse. Partridges are raised in enclosures then released in lowland fields and woodland shortly before someone pays to shoot them round about this time of year.
Grouse are wild birds living on open moorland and don't hang about in groups near roads.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of his actions I suspect the gamekeeper has been misinterpreted about 'ground nesting' vs 'recently released'

Cougar - its does not matter what the shooting season is - they only have the right to ask you to stay away from where they are shooting not the whole estate and only when they are shooting not for the whole season

a few years ago I cycled right thru a shoot ( by accident) and stopped to check my map - they asked me politely to move on a bit to check my map as they couldn't shoot while I was there. Thats reasonable

tpbiker - I suggest you organise a group ride

I’m guessing the birds were actually partridges rather than grouse.

Correct as far as I’ve seen personally, pheasant/partridge not grouse

Fairly typical lane in the area https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3394868

He then drove past me, did a uturn, and accelerated as fast as he could back towards me up the fairly narrow road, giving me very little space as he passed..(

I've had this with a local farmer in Gloucestershire, I reported it online to the Police, they visited the farm to discuss the matter and then popped round to see me (I was out but they spoke with my wife). No action taken as it's one word against another, but it will hopefully make him think twice before doing it again.

Good comments from thegreatape. Behaviour like that needs to get a friendly word of advice even if no further action can be taken.

Looking enviously at Scottish access laws from down here - though the stupidity of some people in the countryside over lockdown makes me understand why similar access here may be an issue! - was there ever discussions around the legislation that if people abused the Scottish access rights, they might be reduced, or for balance, if landowners abused their rights to restrict, they might have them limited further?

Morecash - there have been issues with roadside camping which while not a part of the land reform act has always been tolerated in Scotland. We now have bylaws in some areas restricting roadside camping because of neds partying and making a mess and the next coming battle is over campervans blocking roads and their users shitting in laybys.

There have been one or two battles with landowners over access - archerfield is one where there has been a lot of debate - eventually the John Muir way was allowed thru the estate but they built a huge fence along the shoreline with no gates in it to restrict access.

Some of the shooting estates try to restrict access more than they are allowed to but this is rare.

there is also occasional issues with people buying estates not realising that they have no option but to allow access and attempting to stop folk by claiming the whole estate as a garden so no access

By and large tho there is simply very little issue with land access.

So let me get this straight; they want you to not disturb the Non native, batch farmed birds that they will then be allowing people to shoot for fun later on?

Ffs.

Why do you think they kill birds of prey too?

Why do you think they kill birds of prey too?

Oh, that’s not true. It’s just a conspiracy made up by Chris Packham and RSPB. The birds just all died naturally and gps trackers are cruel anyway. Gamekeepers enhances the natural habitat and grouse moors are absolutely not barren lifeless single species habitats. And they make lots of money for the local economy. You are clearly just a city person who doesn’t understand the countryside 😉

There were hundreds of birds and he had an issue with me disturbing them,

They are going to be chased into the sky by beaters, so a bunch of half cut toffs can blast them out of the sky with a shotgun.

I don't think you pootling passed on your pushbike really counts as a "disturbance" in comparison

Heh!

I must say that every gamekeeper/Hunter type I’ve had the misfortune of interacting with have been absolute bullies

Houns - I have met some really nice and helpful ones - and as above when I accidentally rode right thru a shoot they were really polite about asking me to stop ruining their fun.

I also have had a couple of interactions with the gamekeeper on a deer shooting estate who told me about an otter along the shoreline to watch and who told us the best places to spot the sea eagles

they are not all aresholes - but the aresholes get noticed. I think there is a generational change slowing coming thru

I must say that every gamekeeper/Hunter type I’ve had the misfortune of interacting with have been absolute bullies

That would be a good word to describe the guy. Asked me reasonably nicely at first but as soon as I told him I had a right to be there he started getting aegressive. And when that tactic didn't work he then resorted to trying to intimidate me with his quad.

Basically sounds like I was in the right here, I have no reason to not be on that land. As such I'll be contacting the police and the council today.

Report to Fife Safer Communities and request the form be emailed to you.

Also, call the Police first and ask for an incident number if you can get one.

go pro for the next time you go there?

Report to Fife Safer Communities and request the form be emailed to you.

Also, call the Police first and ask for an incident number if you can get one.

Are fife safer communities run by the police or council?

No go pro I'm afraid...otherwise good idea. Although that would probably be like waving a red rag to a bull.

In my local authority area we have a senior countryside ranger/Outdoor Access Officer. He was spot on and I suggest you find out if fife have an equivalent

I don’t think you pootling passed on your pushbike really counts as a “disturbance” in comparison

It's a disturbance because bike-dood not wearing a shirt and tie, nor be paying a grand a day for the privilege (includes chips n drinks).

Imagine thinking that Grouse shooting is fun.

Poor bastards

Are fife safer communities run by the police or council?

Council although they work with the Police to some degree.

It’s just an online form, takes two minutes and they will be interested in this behaviour. Makes a difference to dealing with kids setting fire to schools I suppose.

Like the Police they may well make a visit and have a word.

As mentioned above, contact the access officer too at outdooraccess@fife.gov.uk

It’s a disturbance because bike-dood not wearing a shirt and tie, nor be paying a grand a day for the privilege (includes chips n drinks).

Whats the betting that going through on a butchers bike wearing Tweed would be fine?

Thanks TJ

Really need to report it, but you'll need to be honest and include your colorful retorts,but it will likely be put down to joint effort, he's angry and in any court scenario he'll be claiming about nesting birds and I dont think you can really claim other.
Driving the vehicle at you is the crux of it as thats extremely dangerous, and there was no reason for him to drive past you, turn around and drive back other than the intention to aim his vehicle at you in a threatening manner. It would be very easy to clip you accidentally resulting in broken bones, or later to other riders if let away with it. At the very least a warning by the police is merited there as it puts the behaviour in report, and that should dissuade him from doing it again.

If anyone knows the quarry at Dumbarton, I once rode into that from the North one weekend. A bit of a journey to get there and theres a number of bore holes about the place you dont want to ride into. Plus a quarry is a great place to ride, but not a working one as thats really dumb, even shut theres a chance of getting killed by something working the weekend. Pretty much realized the predicament id gotten myself into and jesus the mud is really deep. Sod a big truck coming over the hill all of a sudden like.
But I got out and security saw went after me, and after a short chase caught up at the main gated entry. Short chase at about 40mph down a concrete slope 😆
Young guy starts shouting about cyclists coming onto the quarry, about how dangerous it is, etc had been warned before etc, and he could take my bike off me./ I asked him to try it, he said he'd set the dogs on me, dogs in his security van. I told him I could get to him before he got to the van So expletive expletive open the expletive gate.

I can understand them taking action if it is shooting season, though this isn't trigger happy USA and chances of actually being shot by stalkers is rather slim, but nesting birds are everywhere, and like everything riding past them, we arent disturbing them. In fact having danger near, passing by etc is part of nature, and from the birds point of view we are just that unknown. So a bike isnt going to cause any harm to anything.
Shame you didnt have a mounted cam.

I had the same a few years ago on The Moresdale Road above Arkengarthdale. Richard Cranium the gamekeeper blocked the track (bridleway) & told me to 'get off the road'. I mentioned that I was entitled to be on it seeing as it was a BW, he then questioned me on who maintained it, which as you can imagine, threw me a bit. We rabbited on a bit then he went into a flat spin (mustv'e been the annoying grin on my face) & started calling me names such as 'a little fat 4 eyed see you next tuesday'. (I am short & cuddly but that's not the point) Anyway one way or another we bade our farewell but when I got home I called a mate who's a police sergeant & he said to report him as what he said was a public order offence. So I did.
The Richmond police were pretty good & went to have a word with him & reported back to me to that effect.

So yes, inform the police.

Coppers coming round first thing Monday to have a chat with me. Hopefully they'll give him a visit and he may think twice about being such a dick in future

Keep us posted, I’ve mentioned it to someone actively involved with access and core paths locally too

Most times I've been challenged about my access to lands in Scotland have been by people with English accents, it's like they don't know that they are in a different country which had different laws.

One time it was near Duns (can't remember exactly where) and I was following a right of way. Next time I came through there (about a year or two later), the path had been rerouted right around a house and it's gardens, fair enough I suppose.

Report them, can't do any harm.

Similarly, but not English accents, more from toffs. Never really had any issues with gameys or ghillies, but landowners pretty much every time I've came across them.

These occasions have been less frequent in recent years, but I'm sure covid will give some of them an excuse to be ****s.

Its situations like this where i wish i was 6ft 4 and hard as f. It would make standing up to bullies and not having to put up with other peoples s much more enjoyable.

Gamekeepers enhances the natural habitat and grouse moors are absolutely not barren lifeless single species habitats. And they make lots of money for the local economy. You are clearly just a city person who doesn’t understand the countryside

I read somewhere there are public subsidies available!