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Turned up with a game plan, executed it, job done. The tries at the end were icing, they'd have been happy with 18-12.
For a kid whose favourite toy in the townships was a brick, that's a special thing he's just lifted. I can't begrudge them any of the praise they're going to get, well done Bokke
Englands main issue apart from the scrums is the half backs! Youngs was poor today and so was Ford
Bingo!! There's always one poster who turns up to blame the half backs when the pack has been man shamed. England didnt run it much or well because they didn't get front foot ball. What was odd was that all the tip ons and balls behind the forwards to Tuilagi etc just werent used to shift contact and keep the SA defence guessing. Got suckered in to a willy waving contest.
It was an enjoyable tournament and I'm not quite sure what I'll do with my time now. I may be the only one though who actually prefers the 6 Nations tournament.
A wee congratulations from me to Josh Adams, top try scorer.
With Ireland, Wales, Italy (?), and to an extent England all about to have new coaches, does that put Scotland ahead of the curve for the 2020 6 Nations?
does that put Scotland ahead of the curve for the 2020 6 Nations?
No, because Townesend!!
AA - yes its harder to play well at half back with no platform - but 3 times england tried set piece moves and 3 times they failed because of poor passing from Youngs. Ford / Farrell does not work! How much shite ball was just shoveled on?
England have a fast attacking back 3. They got no ball to play with.
2 clean breaks all game from the backs is poor - especially as england actually had the bulk of the possession and territory
Trouble is England are just so predicable in play. When like SA did you negate vunipola and Tuilagi carrying then england have nothing else!
does that put Scotland ahead of the curve for the 2020 6 Nations?
NO - ~Scotland are on a downward path right now under Townsend and we will not improve till he goes.
@mboy, you can take solace that Jerome Garces just officiated his last match as a ref.
Well played to South Africa they bossed the scrums at a level unseen in a final and those tries were both fantastic.
Forwards win games.
Backs decide the margin.
SA scrum dominated that completely.
does that put Scotland ahead of the curve for the 2020 6 Nations?
NO – ~Scotland are on a downward path right now under Townsend and we will not improve till he goes.
Wow, no equivocation there! I always thought you were a fan of his.
How much of a downward path do people see Wales undergoing in the near future? Am I right in the belief that Scotland and Wales don't have the number of players or teams required to develop a squad that can consistently compete at the World level? What is the solution? Josh Adams has developed well at Worcester (?) do we need to allow Wales players to play in England?
How do Ireland go forward from here?
Townsend was parachuted in as the favourite son and this WC and last 6N shows that he is simply too inexperienced and makes too many mistakes in selection. the scots team has gone backwards a long way in two years
How much of a downward path do people see Wales undergoing in the near future?
Four years ago, people were asking how England and South Africa could recover from disastrous WC campaigns. Twelve months ago, Ireland were looking like solid contenders for best in the world alongside NZ. My guess is that Wales, Ireland, and Scotland will look at what England and SA did to climb back and will be ruthless in implementing reforms. NZ and Australia too.
Wales had so many injuries its difficult to judge them going forward. Just seen this quote from Matt Dawson:
England were taken apart in many, many areas today. They looked, for the first time in long time, rattled from very early on when they tried to break the line or score a bit too early rather than staying patient.
You need to go through your patterns and stay on script. There were a lot of players who didn't stay on script and tried to play their own game rather than the team game.
I listened to ENG vs NZ on the radio and post match Dawson said ENG are unbeatable and the WC was theirs to lose. He was really trying to not say it but he couldn't help it, I wonder if the ENG players also felt like this.
I think Wales had a great tournament, but that was in large part down to the excellent coaching. From a very experienced coaching team. It feels inevitable that we will lose some ground in the near future. England and SA have 15x the population of Wales, for every World class player Wales can provide they should have a team full.
It would be nice for the game to be tweaked so that players weren't broken so often.
3 subs per match would be a good move imo. It will never happen but I think it would shrink the size of player (less injuries) and close the distance between top and second tier teams.
3 subs per match would be a good move imo.
Used to be 3 subs when I played in Nat 1, it was horrible, you had a prop, a hooker and a back. Props at flanker, hookers at centre, it was a nightmare 😀
Sounds good to me! You could have 5/6/7 subs but only 3 could come on.
No good enough England.
You have to win it and Not talk yourself into winning.
Too much hype as usual.
Can't complain at the result and 2nd best team on the planet isn't too shabby. I worry slightly for the home nations potential, I fear englands light will fade and the remainder aren't in great shape. Unless France can pull their finger out, we will be in for more SH dominance.
England and SA have 15x the population of Wales
NZ don't, yet they seem to be able to keep finding excellent players.
Edit. And exporting coaches too.
Dissapointed in the game today - watched a recording and FF through quite a bit as we never got into the game. Probably better to say SA did not let us get into our game. I guess this is how NZ felt last week. No complaints and some nice scenes at the end.
NZ don’t, yet they seem to be able to keep finding excellent players.
And of course it's utterly irrelevant. China have more people and soccer players than any other nation. People can't seem to get their hear around the fact that it's about far more than numbers. It's a sad, tired old rationale.
Bingo!! There’s always one poster who turns up to blame the half backs when the pack has been man shamed
True but if you scrum half throws his passes anywhere except where they're supposed to go it doesn't help. Youngs never fails to go missing in big games.
England's forwards got owned. No doubt. But having Youngs at 9 and Farrell as your "leader" doesn't help when you need to find a plan B.
SA were very smart the whole RWC but the smartest thing they did was let someone else beat the ABs for them.
Farrell is well loved on here isnt he, is it coz hes northern? He wasn't responsible for today's poor show today, the team was.
It was fortunate not smart. They had no control over it.
The issue with Farrell is although a fine player he is no where near as good as the english pundits claim and in the opinion of many actually holds england back
Its as much a reaction to the press as to the person the dislike for him.
The wealth of the RFU might be relevant, but the number of registered players in England is a complete red herring. For 80% of them a rugby match is a bit of fresh air to justify an afternoon of refreshments. Nothing wrong with that of course.
Just been out for a wet an windy solo road ride and collected my thoughts, now stick with me on this..England were really not helped today by losing their play maker after 3 mins. V NZ Sinkler was the guy carrying hard but also a load of the good stuff went through him, little passes before contact to confuse defenders, passes to wider forwrds, passes out behind the forwards to the backs, he has great hands and is a carrying threat himself which means defences cant over commit.
Also England have gone horses for courses in selection v Aus and NZ so why not here and put Itoje at 6 with Kruis and Lawes at lock, match them early. I think England underestimated them tbh.
Youngs. Ford / Farrell
That’s balls though isn’t it? Seemed to work pretty damn well last week.
However, Youngs was lucky to be there given his form has been a bit squiffy for a while. His passing today was shit today and Ford cracked under the pressure.
So how did South Africa come from a very low ebb not that many months ago to winning the world cup? I know they have always been a power in world rugby but what changed? did they try to play a more free flowing game that didn't agree with them and went back to the power game,is their coach a genius? As a casual rugby watcher in interested,what gives? i'm guess its because they have always been pretty good,ebbs and flows and all that.
True but if you scrum half throws his passes anywhere except where they’re supposed to go it doesn’t help
100% agree. Youngs is not a great passer and rarely hits the receiver in the bread basket. He's either too high/low or too low or in front/behind. Faf on the other hand was hitting his man very accurately.
So how did South Africa come from a very low ebb not that many months ago to winning the world cup?
A large part has been picking overseas based players. That and a back to basics gameplan.
Ford always cracks under pressure. I'd have a big old clear out before the 6N.
So who will England pick next? Daly at full back doesnt work for me.
Wales:
McNicol/Patch assuming Liam broke
North
Davies
Halaholo
Adams
Anscombe/Patch/Biggar
Williams/Davies
Faletau
Tips/Navidi
Wainwright/Moriarty/Jenkins
AWJ
Ball/Beard/Seb Davies
Francis/Lewis/Lee
Dee/Owens
Evans/Wyn Jones/Carre
Maybe SA are a little like the German National football team. They can be beaten in friendlies and qualifiers but their mentality is geared towards getting to the final and usually winning.
Eddie jones said in his interview that they will be kicking stones for four years now,thats an interesting thing to say,does it mean he only really values the world cup and games against the southern hemisphere? I guess in reality you could substitute NZ/AUS/S.A into the six nations and they would be right up there,just thought it was an interesting thing to say,maybe a window on the aussie mindset.
"We will be kicking stones" I guess he's staying then.
I think there was too pressure and waffle from the press about England being unbeatable after the NZ game and too much about SA being boring, one dimensional etc.
England just didn’t expect the SA side that turned up and they had nothing left after NZ.
Personally I don’t think Sinclar would have made a big difference but we’ll never know.
The right result as far as I’m concerned.
Also not sure about the hatred on this thread for Wales. They played OK in the tournament but never looked like winning. I considered them lucky to get past France.
Also not sure about the hatred on this thread for Wales. They played OK in the tournament but never looked like winning. I considered them lucky to get past France.
Using the form guide France would have battered England!!!!
https://www.scotsman.com/sport/rugby-union/sru-braced-for-six-figure-fine-from-world-rugby-1-5037524
On the one hand, two chances to play Japan. Cannae wait.
On the other hand, 6 figures! WTAF!?
No way that won't be going to court which I think is a good thing. I want to see Gilpin under oath describing in detail the conversations he had with NZ rugby amongst others. Then have NZ rugby describe the same conversations under oath.
Japan have done an awesome job with this tournament.
World Rugby and Gilpin in particular have proven themselves to be massive massive ****s.
So who will England pick next? Daly at full back doesnt work for me.
Lots of very good players champing at the bit. Couldn't agree more about Daly. He's been actual rubbish.
Youngs, Cole, Marler, Lawes, Wilson, Heinz
In 4 years time, Manu, JJ, Farrell, May will be 32/33. Jeez, even Nowell will be 30! Some of the other forwards will be too, but they could probably wear it.
Someone needs to sack up now and look at properly bringing in the likes of Tompkins, Ibitoye, Randall, Thorley, Smith, Lewington, Lawrence, etc etc.
To add to A_a's list, wales would be mad not to start brining in Ion Lloyd. Dan Thomas is worth a look too, he's been fantastic for bris and Tips will be 34 when the next RWC rolls around.
To add to A_a’s list, wales would be mad not to start brining in Ion Lloyd. Dan Thomas is worth a look too, he’s been fantastic for bris and Tips will be 34 when the next RWC rolls around
Yeah Tips will be old butvwe arent that blessed with quality players although 7 we do have options. Wales need to build strength not throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Daky is a quality rugby player mind, could he go to 13.
Faz
May
Tuilagi
Daly
Watson
AN Other Fullback.
is their coach a genius
This week, yes. Last week, Eddie Jones was a genius. A few weeks ago, Steve Hansen and Jamie Joseph were geniuses. You're only as good as your last game.
Not true.
Erasmus has now won the world cup for his country.
The next game's result can't detract from that.
But, don't think there is a next game for rassie, he moves up to director of rugby and chooses the next coach, which was their plan when he went back. Was just a temp stand in while they needed him then upstairs. But definitely genius. SA on the rise.
Hansen too, With two world cups.
But definitely genius. SA on the rise.
Hansen too, With two world cups.
If Hansen was a genius he'd have won the World Cup with Wales!
SA on the rise.
They may be on the rise, they may have peaked and it might be all downhill from here. We'll know more in a couple of years.
I noticed that the news last night reported the game with words along the lines of ‘South Africa wanted the win more because Kolisi would be the first black captain to win the cup’.
If only the rest of the world could find something to motivate them, eh?
If only the rest of the world could find something to motivate them, eh?
England losing works for a lot of people.
England losing works for a lot of people.
...and there were go. Well the class and empathy lasted roughly 24hrs at least before the bitterness rose again. Business as usual then...
England losing works for a lot of people.
I don’t think so in this case, being English media. The news report felt like they were looking for an excuse for England’s loss, other than SA were a better team on the day.
[quote="tjagain"]I was thinking more about the winners etc
SA to win
NZ or england to be the beaten finalists
Scotland – out in the q/f as are Wales
ireland to make the semis
Arentina to surprise a few folk and I am scared about Japan / Scotland
Well I got some bits right!
It was quite amusing reading thru the predictions. My favourite was someone ( ??Gauss) stating that Jap-an would not beat ireland or scotland!
Kryton its not bitterness. When yo have a big brother who is constantly telling you that they are too good for you its a nice bit of schadenfreude when they lose.
Its mainly a reaction to the press anyway
Just arrived at my boys rugby tournament, piss funny reminding all the Englanders that they were cheering for SA last week so I was expecting them to be happy!
Its mainly a reaction to the press anyway
The English press, to be precise.
You know, its 2019 and there's a lot of English people who are just normal tea drinking families and parents who've got no inclination to jump over Hadrians wall and ravish the Scots, suppress the Welsh or contain the Irish. Nor are we by courtesy of our born nationality responsible for the acts of our forefathers. It wears heavily and tiresome to want to discuss a sport which we all enjoy and some are so passionate about with the constant barbs to our nationality.
I'm having a bad weekend for sure - more than the rugby involved tbh - but the continued casual racism (because they are English, not just journalists for example) and blame, and joy to see us lose because we are England/English is just so wearing.
I think there are so many supporters English ones at that, that have congratulated SA, are happy for their win yet devastated for our own loss who have acknowledged in honesty that we've been outplayed for sure, yet the minor non English sneer acknowledging the fact we failed to win this match seems to prevail in a manner thats all the better for them because of our Nationality.
Its saddening to me TBH. I'm not here for an argument so I won't be defending this post against one, I'm off out to watch my kid play Rugby which will now doubt be the highlight of my Rugby weekend.
The English press, to be precise.
No. The British national press.
but the continued casual racism (because they are English, not just journalists for example) and blame, and joy to see us lose because we are England/English is just so wearing
Dry your eyes fella, you can no doubt restore the true world order in 4 years time! The whole point of sport is rivalries. Is it casual racism when I take the piss out of Ospreys or Cardiff supporters (not the Dregs they have enough issues)?
Kryton - we have tried to explain why the ABE exists. Its very difficult to see unless you are a wales, Scotland or Ireland supporter but the continual promotion of the English team in the press and the ignoring of others is more than a little irritating
One small example when two non home nations are playing we are always told what english clubs the players play for or have played for. No mention of for example the role scottish teams have had in developing Fiji players! Matowalo was described as an ex bath player - not a current Glasgow player!
Or things like being continually told the english league is the best in the world when european cup results show it is not.
It gets very wearing
An example was Lord Balds first comment at half time was that a different SA turned up to the one that played Wales.
After the game Faff was interviewed "you changed the game plan from last week then" "no it was the same"
It wears heavily and tiresome to want to discuss a sport which we all enjoy and some are so passionate about with the constant barbs to our nationality.
Mate, it's not that, in most cases. I'm half English, I was born and grew up there. I've always supported England in football.
The dislike is just English Rugby. Yes, because of pain of defeat inflicted through the years, but there's more. The English rugby media are incredibly cocky which really grates when you're losing to them. Much of the British media gushes about England every time they win a match like it's 2003 again. English rugby gets more column inches. That bloke who commentates on ITV is an England fan, which irritates hugely. He doesn't talk about the game half the time, just gushes about England.
History aside, when you're already feeling sidelined by a much bigger and culturally dominating partner, this grates. And on top of that, there's a class divide between rugby in England and Wales. It's a public school sport in England. Then you've got the issue that Eddie Jones is an unpleasant man and apparently so are half the England team. Then all the extra coverage seems like rubbing our faces in it all the more.
Eddie Jones is an unpleasant man and apparently so are half the England team.
Currently most of the England players seem fine, obviously Marler is a racist and Itoje a prise **** but the rest seem ok.
Eddie Jones is an unpleasant man
Not disagreeing about that, but there are mitigating circumstances:
i) He is less of a tosser than Chieka
ii) He coached Japan to a win against South Africa and England to a WC final, including a truly exceptional victory against NZ in the semi-final.
My favourite was someone ( ??Gauss) stating that Jap-an would not beat ireland or scotland!
Harsh, you haven't even quoted whatever I said ; )
Without going back to check. I did not forsee Japan beating Ireland at all. The Japan v Scotland game was too close to call for me iirc. I certainly would not rule out Scotland losing to any other team away 😂. I probably said at the time people at my work gave Japan no chance of beating Scotland and I attempted to persuade them to be more cautious. I may well have thought Scotland the more likely to win, just before the tournament started.
Those first games seem such a long time ago now.
Tj I'm really looking forward to the 6Nations, but the banter when the next Lions tour comes around will be special too ; )
Tj I’m really looking forward to the 6Nations, but the banter when the next Lions tour comes around will be special too ; )
Gatland should pick yesterdays England 15 and beat SA in SA just to piss of Jones!!!
there’s a class divide between rugby in England and Wales. It’s a public school sport in England.
Apart from it’s not really any more, there are rugby players from all background now. Sinkler was hardly born with a silver spoon in his mouth.
I didn’t go to a private school and played rugby at school. Dawson and Lewsy were products of the RGS in High Wycombe were my uncle went to school with them.
Apart from it’s not really any more,
There really is!! How many are privately educated, rugby scholarship kids?
The English rugby media are incredibly cocky
A perfect examples, so dismissive of South Africa.
https://twitter.com/BBCSport/status/1190384267362275330
Gatland should pick yesterdays England 15 and beat SA in SA just to piss of Jones!!!
😂😂
Without going back to check. I did not forsee Japan beating Ireland at all.
I don’t think any sensible person would have predicted that Ireland were going to be so poor this RWC.
I don’t think any sensible person would have predicted that Ireland were going to be so poor this RWC.
No, I thought they were quite likely to meet NZ in the final. I had the Japan-Scotland game penciled in as probably the decider for runner up in the pool, with Japan quite likely to win, but beating Ireland was stunning. Once Japan had done that, they were clear favorites to beat Scotland, I don't know why anyone was surprised at the outcome of that game.
Nothing wrong with rugby scholarships, I wish there were many, many more. I coach a kids team and we have he entire cross section; privately educated kids, kids from state schools on not so nice areas etc. Black, white, Asian, mixed race, English, Jamaican, south African, welsh. It's awesome that these kids mix. If I can in some small way help any of them get a rugby scholarship I'd be absolutely over the moon.
Nothing wrong with rugby scholarships
Who said there was?
A perfect examples, so dismissive of South Africa.
A scroll through Matt Dawson's Twitter feed today is highly entertaining.
Almost as entertaining as seeing the smug look wiped off Clive Woodward's face.
Back to post match analysis of the final, and picking up on AA's point on previous page, I do think England were rattled and unprepared for early loss of sinckler. It seemed all those looping clever little decoy runs routines that we saw against NZ didn't happen, maybe he was always partnof the begining of routine and Dan Cole wouldn't have been prepared to take same role. On a similar hindsight type note, taking a squad to beat both NZ and then SA is tough, or could that have been done I wonder?
Molgrips
Then you’ve got the issue that Eddie Jones is an unpleasant man and apparently so are half the England team.
Wow, that's quite a statement. Would you like to run through each players unpleasantness, so we know exactly what you are inferring?
(Do we need a new thread to discuss the rest of the year's rugby?)
We should have a new thread
Arigatōgozaimashita Japan
An awesome tournament, probably the best so far.
Nah.... Leave all the bitterness in one place
Would you like to run through each players unpleasantness, so we know exactly what you are inferring?
No as it's clearly an impression not a quantitative assessment.
yeah that's got me too. I don't think you can bandy around that sort of statement then walk away and say it's just an impression.
I can see Farrell not be too popular, Itoje possibly as well. Other than that no-one springs to mind
News says Eddies staying to 2021 but the team is “Done” an the six nations will be the start of a rebuild to the next RWC. Interestingly had came out with all this the first time around and I didn’t believe him, I thought it was spin around the losses at the time.
Seems that’s now Jones MO, but how he knows what style of rugby will potentially win the RWC in 2023 I’ve no idea.