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Oh it burns mindmap - 🙂
Sorry but Farrell has far too many of these cheap shots and deliberate foul play on his record for it to be accidental. Its astonishing how he has not served lengthy bans - one of his "tackles" was actually used by world rugby as a textbook example of a red card ( that was not given)
He should have got 3 red cards last season which would have meant a lengthy ban
Overall cant see Wales winning but then I have called 240 000 of our last 3 losses, its the welsh way!
I’m like you, but not quite so extreme. I’d give it 55% Australia, 45% Wales. Such a big game, as I do believe coming top of the group results in a favourable draw for the quarters and semis. It may be too tense to enjoy.
Yes he tackles like a tit but he isn’t looking to injure people.
Agreed. He can't tackle for toffee, and is an angsty little turd but I don't think he's a looking to injure people. He's no Calum Clarke.
With calls this morning from Jones that “…England can play better…” I just find myself a bit demoralised. If they are that good they need to show it on the pitch, but what I’m seeing is the same old England, the same OTT reporting in the press and the same mistakes. I really don’t think think they have another gear, they’re going to be found out pdq and scared by Argentina or with a bit of luck the next team.
I think England are progressing nicely and will up their game as they face stronger opponents. But, I agree that as usual the press are OTT. (It didn’t help having all the commentators in the studio being English). However, it pales in comparison with some of the Ireland punditry I’ve seen!
He should have got 3 red cards last season which would have meant a lengthy ban
Is that under the new directives or the old ones? He wasn’t the only one though. Not sure why you have such a reverse man crush on him.
The citing commissioners / refs thought differently and at the end I’d the they’re the only opinions that matter. None of his tackles were anywhere as near as bad as the one of Halfpenny. He was definitely lucky escaping yellows.
OK maybe "deliberately injure" is over the top but certainly "hurt and intimidate" trouble is he is no Ryan Wilson 🙂
mindmap - world rugby used one of the tackles that escaped any censure as a textbook example of a red card offesnse. so world rugby disagreed with the officials. they are the highest authority
3 clear reds missed - no arms tackle to the head with force = red card by the laws
deleted not quite making the point I wanted to make
As a Welshman the anti English sentiment is boring. His tackling technique is a bit rubbish. If he gets banned and a red card, great. If not, that’s the game.
It’s a tough game. His position is the position where flankers and second rows deliberately hit him hard. Same as every other stand off.
I’m an ex rugby league player, his tackling looks to me like he is a smaller player trying to hit a bigger player hard whilst trying to stop the offload. In modern rugby if you tackle at the ankles that is what the opponent wants.
I also have warm memories of Welsh club rugby back in the 70, 80s and 90s. Famous for leaving No10s in hospital and opponent teams finishing the game with less players that it started. We loved it then. I don’t see any difference between how Farrell plays and how we used to want our players to play.
None of his tackles were anywhere as near as bad as the one of Halfpenny. He was definitely lucky escaping yellows.
What did 1/2p do wrong? Apart from headbutting a few knees I've not seen him do much wrong regarding tackles.
Francis should have had a yellow or a red yesterday, again the top tier teams are given an advantage!
Aus back 3 picked to cope with Wales aereal game, nows the time to unleash those long hidden flowing backline moves!! 🤔
As a Welshman the anti English sentiment is boring
I said:
To be fair to Farrel, I do quite like him
Just putting this out as I always get blamed for anything anti english even when its not me!
I suspect its a typo AA - should have been ON 1/2p
With no games today, I have been looking ahead. Australia v Wales is a big game, with the sides evenly matched. But, it’s not until a week tomorrow with England v Argentina until a similar big game. However, what about Scotland v Samoa on Monday? - is that thought to be a comfortable win for Scotland or could it be hairy for Scotland?
Ireland were clear favourites against Scotland, but there has been a lot of criticism about Scotland’s attitude, their fans are very despondent. I hope they get their shit together and produce a worthy performance.
Sorry, I missed Japan v Ireland. Ireland should win, but it should be an entertaining game and interesting to compare with the Ire v Scot game.
Just putting this out as I always get blamed for anything anti english even when its not me!
I think it was aimed elsewhere. There is an observable difference between ribbing and bitterness.
I am hopeful for Wales, I think they are better than you think and Oz are quite flakey these days. You can capitalize on that.
Scotland / Samoa - Scotland will need to improve a lot to beat them well and a win for Samoa is certainly possible. Its put it 60/40 scotland
The unpalatable truth for England fans is that our anointed leader is a nasty little cheating thug with a brain the size of a pea. He reminds me of Sebastian Vettel. Nice as pie off the track but a total whining, cheating sh*t on it.
Jonny Wilkinson was hard as nails but didn't run around pretending to be hard, gobbing off at people or pretend to be injured if he'd fouled someone. He was also capable of executing more than just plan A if things went bad. Would England have let slip a 31-0 lead against Scotland with him at the helm? He could also tackle. Something Farrell has never mastered despite it being one of the basic skills of rugby.
Farrell performs well for Sarries because Wigglesworth has the brains to control him when he loses the plot. Unfortunately England have nobody of that calibre, mentally.
Aus back 3 picked to cope with Wales aereal game, nows the time to unleash those long hidden flowing backline moves!! 🤔
It could happen, Wales have the players to do it. Should they produce these suggested hidden moves and provide a sexy game to beat Australia, then I will be truly excited for Wales in the rest of the competition. Otherwise, it will be just a matter of when will we get beaten, I fear.
Thanks Kryton.
I'll go for a helping of the salt and vitriol. Complete with a nice dip - flavoured with righteous indignation.
AA, I think he meant Samu Kerevi hit (charge down attempt it was so late 1/2p was walking towards the showers!)
Quick question for the former players.....have you ever deliberately “left your mark” on an opponent? Whether that’s a late tackle to let the opponent know you’re ready for them, winding up the hot headed hooker or using your feet to help remove a player lying on the wrong side? If there’s any Flanker (or loose forward in my code) who says “nope, never, I don’t agree with doing that” they are talking nonsense.
Maybe I’m just a bit of a dinosaur and remember the good days of hard rugby through rose tinted glasses.
Johnny’s tackling was his weak area. His technique wasn’t great, but he was strong as an ox and brave to boot, same as 1/2p. Injuries from their tackling tackling technique resulting in a fair few missed games.
And no AF isn’t in the same class as Johnny. Not many are.
Jonny’s tackling was his weak area. His technique wasn’t great
His technique maybe wasn't perfect but he was the best defensive 10 ever so it was hardly a weak point. Sure, it probably contributed to some of his injuries but that was how he played.
I’ve just watched the JW compilation and there’s at least 4 red cards under current tackle rules in there.
Wilkinson was the first 10 I can think of who made defense a priority and a large part of his game. Compare that to Dan Parks! ( he was so crap they used to try to hide him in defense)
Yeah my point was that JW stopped players, his defence was very good, at the same time it was also his Achilles heel. His technique was poor, but he’d put his head were most players wouldn’t. From memory wasn’t it his shoulder injuries that kept him out of games?
Here’s a good read.....
https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/the-big-question-why-is-jonny-wilkinson-injured-so-often-and-is-rugby-just-too-dangerous-401489.html?amp
there’s at least 4 red cards under current tackle rules in there.
Aaah - the good old days!
Try watching the SBW tribute......
(Note: he came into the NRL when the shoulder charge was perfectly legal.)
Oh yes let’s praise Saint Jonny for curtailing his career tackling people when it wasn’t his job. How many times did he crock himself smashing into huge forwards, brave but not smart.
As to the question have you ever gone out to hurt an opponent, to my shame I have to admit, yes. Playing hockey not rugby though.
Doesn't everyone go out to hurt their opponent in Rugby? There is a difference though between a bruising tackle where you want to guy to feel it and genuinely trying to injure them (breaking bones etc)
Having played school/club rugby as a forward in the 70s, I can remember being coached to play ‘hard but fair’ to try and intimidate opponents by our school coach who had spent time in NZ and wanted to emulate the style of play he’d seen there. As a consequence, we did a lot of stuff that was within the rules then but would now be illegal; borderline spear tackles, getting underneath and lifting opponents in scrums, raking grounded players to clear them from rucks. The rule changes to protect players from life-altering injuries are undoubtedly a good thing, but I don’t see anything that suggests that players don’t still enjoy the physicality and aggression of the game any less than we did back then.
Anyone got a decent vid of the Piers Francis tackle? I can't find it slowed down or from a decent angle and I want to stoke a bit of controversy see if its as bad as we think?
you can watch it on the ITV hub, it's the first hit of the game (it's not great under current rules but i don't think it's too horrible).
The question about leaving your mark, i played level 5 rugby for a long while (00's until a couple of years ago) and it was very physical and if you didn't try and get the upper hand on the opponent by making yourself known it make for a tougher game. that being said i never tried to really scupper anyone (unlike some of the players i played against, i even got bitten once which drew blood which was a real shock!).
https://twitter.com/ITVRugby/status/1177190386130935809
It's here. I am in the undecided camp on this. It is similar to the one on Launchbury which seems to have been skipped over although discussed at the time on the coverage. I am not saying Eng are being harshly treated, I just cant follow the logic. It seemed to me that that also met the criteria? The charge on Faz was pretty bad though, can't really argue a case for the defence
Anyway I am really enjoying the Australian idignation after Hodge got a ban. They made such a big deal about Farrell's tackle on Rodda in the autumn and why it wasn't a penatly try, then a very similar tackle, after changes in protcol which they admit had not been coached or explained, results in a ban but Chieka gets all upset.
“Contact with the head area”
Every time a forward charges head first into contact there is “contact with the head” Rugby is in danger of disappearing up its rectum on this issue.
let’s praise Saint Jonny for curtailing his career
Yes, let's.
97 international caps and 1,246pts
322 club games and 3,933pts
A Grand Slam and several 6N Titles
3 RWCs including 2 finals
2 Lions Tours
Premiership title
Top14 title
2 European Cups
It wasn't just shoulder injuries - he had two bad knee injuries (one caused by a team mate falling on him), lacerated kidney, hernia etc so it wasn't all caused by him tackling people.
Oh dear the saes are so precious 😂😂😂
Every time a forward charges head first into contact there is “contact with the head” Rugby is in danger of disappearing up its rectum on this issue.
Couldn't agree more.
Surely Brendan Venter could come up with a game plan where:
a) Your ball carriers lower their heads into every tackle and the other 14 players shout, "Contact to the head, Sir!"
or
b) The first receiver runs up to the ruck and the pass is lobbed high into the air so he has to leap into the air to take it. The defender has to either jump out of the way or tackle him on which the other 14 players shout out, "Taking the man out in the air, Sir!"
PS a variation of option b) worked well for the Lions in the 3rd test against NZ
Hooley caught the ball, saw Francis coming and dropped 6" - if he hadn't done that the tackle would have been around the chest. Francis had no time to readjust. Possible mitigation.
Red card for me. Duty of care and all that. to the head with force = Red. Possible mitigation from the fact the tacklee dips a bit to take it to yellow.
But for me red every time.
the aim of this is to get the tacklers to go lower.
TJ - and the USA player^^ on Launchbury? Or do only England players deserve red cards?
Plus forcing all tackles low opens up the “knee to head” possibility. Clothesline high shots and shoulder to head - early bath. Chest on chest with head to head contact - get on with it.
I didn't really look at that one Dants. If there is impact to the head with force then its a red card.
The second part of your post is wrong under the laws as they are. Good video on the world rugby site explaining this
any contact with the head is foul play and should be sanctioned. Sanction depending on force of impact and mitigation
I’m not questioning the law as is, I’m saying it’s ridiculous.
Above post edited for clarity.
I don't think its red. Francis drops pretty low into the tackle, the USA player drops even lower when he saw Francis coming. As Dan said no time to adjust.
What did 1/2p do wrong? Apart from headbutting a few knees I’ve not seen him do much wrong regarding tackles.
I meant the one on him in the AI’s courtesy of Australia.
The very fact it has been cited means it is a red card offence that should have been given on the field of play. So he will get a ban in my opinion, clear line of sight on the ball carrier, time to lower his collision point, high degree of danger.
For me the law says it's a red. The only part open to interpretation is if there is a "high" or "low" degree of danger. Tackler dipping fractionally before you clatter recklessly in to them at full pelt isn't part of the on field decision making, correct? That is more mitigation if/ when deciding a possible ban length???
This all seems a bit like the extra focus on the man being taken out in the air- at first people seemed mystified and the interpretation by the officials was a bit all over the place and now things seem to have settled down and everyone knows the expectations of the laws.
This all seems a bit like the extra focus on the man being taken out in the air- at first people seemed mystified and the interpretation by the officials was a bit all over the place and now things seem to have settled down and everyone knows the expectations of the laws.
Agreed, but the problem is they are doing it at the RWC and the interpretation is all over the place. This is where Rugby is selling itself to the world but the players and coaches and refs are all seeing it differently which is not a good look.
I fully expect a Welshman to get a red card on sunday!
I fully expect a Welshman to get a red card on sunday!
I don’t know about expect, but I shall be fearing it every time they go to the tmo. When they went to the tmo in the game against Georgia, I thought oh that’s harsh: don’t send the Georgia player off, before realising they were looking at Josh Adams - then my heart was in my mouth. Reffed well I thought, but on another day...
Absolutely - a perfectly reasonable tackle can turn into a red card by a player dipping his head.
It’s a contact sport full of high speed collisions. Intentional foul play should be stamped out, but now we are in the lottery of outcomes instead if intentions.
JW had to be brave he was a 10 and his flankers didn't cover his channel well and the opposition ran truck down that channel. So he had no choice (well he could have had the Craig chalmers sore shoulder excuse). On balance I don't warm to Farrell. It's really the case of him feigning injury when he realises he could be off. Really not helped by his fist pump when he got away with it. I get his dedication but he doesn't control himself.
Good rugby is about controlled aggression directed well.
The law hasn't changed for years has it? More that they introduced a new "framework" to aid decision making at the last minute (ironic 🙂 )
In answer to my own question the mitigating factors which may reduce the sanction by one level are:
Mitigating factors
(must be clear and obvious and can only be applied to reduce a sanction by 1 level)
Tackler makes a definite attempt to change height in an effort to avoid ball carrier’s head
BC suddenly drops in height (e.g. From earlier tackle, trips/falls, dives to score)
Tackler is unsighted prior to contact
“Reactionary” tackle, immediate release
Head contact is indirect (starts elsewhere on the body and then slips or moves up resulting in minor contact to the BC’s head or neck)
Ball carrier slightly squatting down doesn't seem to fit any of these so you'd expect a 3 week break like the previous cases
JW’s flankers? International flankers being Richard Hill, Lewis Moody, Neil Back, supported by Lawrence D, Martin Corry and second row of Martin J, Ben Kay and Simon Shaw. Not a bad line up of guys who could tackle.
Maybe at the Falcons he was exposed a bit more, but again when he went to Toulon wasn’t it Lobbe and Dussaittor who were the flankers and Picamoles at 8?
JW was/is a class act in my opinion. But he was a guy who was very brave in contact, probably not the best technically at tackling and possibly didn’t need to be. But he was a winner and put his body on the line every game.
Hope my posts on him don’t sound like I’m knocking him.
DanW, one of the grey areas is for different size players. I’m 5 foot 8, a 6 foot 5 player making a smother tackle on me can look a lot worse than was intended, if I lower my hips/knees, it’s easy for the defenders arm to work up to my neck/head. When two players are moving at speed it isn’t as simple as saying ball carrier dipping should be a 3 week ban. As a tackler you have a target, you’re thinking about where to hit and how to position yourself, then the attacker moves and you can’t readjust in time either physically or mentally and proceed with the tackle.
This is part of the mitigating circumstances that should be looked at.
Yes and he didn't get support in his channel, whether that was because he was perceived to be a good solid tackler or because they didn't fill the channel. Ultimately his shoulder injuries are down to his having to tackle hard and that is down to the lack of other tacklers. And yes through his early falcons and England career, he was better covered in France.
Edit: don't get me wrong this was the start of mobile monsters on the pitch and they were run at smaller players. So it was easy to run 18st 8s down his channel.
That’s some of the best open side flankers in world rugby, some of the most mobile and you think they didn’t support JW? I guess we disagree on this topic.
I’d imagine a lot of No10s would have liked having those guys as a back row.
JW loved a tackle, absolutely nothing wrong with it, it’s his game. He just didn’t have great technique and probably shouldn’t have gotten so invoked, but he knows way more than me, I’m just a casual observer.
But I would watch him wincing every time he went into contact.
My point on JW is that it wasn’t his job to tackle like he did. There will always be No8s bearing down on the stand off, but JW loved the contact. He’d try and smash the opponent, but that’s not his job. And nor in my opinion is it the fault of his back row. It’s just JW being a winner and ultra competitive.
Some of the big hits he made his body position wasn’t great and he would sometimes come off worse than was necessary.
Amazing player and complete warrior.
Yes and he didn’t get support in his channel, whether that was because he was perceived to be a good solid tackler or because they didn’t fill the channel. Ultimately his shoulder injuries are down to his having to tackle hard and that is down to the lack of other tacklers.
Look mate everybody has to tackle. Teams will always send people down the 10 channel to see if they can run over the flyhalf. Wilkinson generally stopped anybody sent his way. He played with loads of world class forwards but that didn't mean he'd never have to tackle.
Hope my posts on him don’t sound like I’m knocking him.
Not a bit of it.
Hooley caught the ball, saw Francis coming and dropped 6″ – if he hadn’t done that the tackle would have been around the chest.
Players don’t catch the ball completely upright - they bend their knees. Especially if they need to protect themselves from some maniac charging towards them. 😁
Francis had enough time and vision to make a proper tackle, especially as he must know the fuss being made about high tackles at the moment. It’s nothing new - that sort of tackle has been penalised and carded for several seasons now. The big surprise is why the refs have been so lenient during RWC, when they were not being lenient a few weeks ago in the domestic comps.
Bottom line is tacklers need to aim lower, if the bloke with the ball dips a bit you should have factored that in. If the are really low then its mitigating but dropping your should into a tackle is perfectly normal.
Off way to describe the new framework by Cheika...
‘The framework is for referees, not the players, and used to decide whether there are red or yellow cards in a game. In my view, the officials in this tournament are using that framework very well.’
Surely the players need to understand it and act accordingly? He’s digging himself a deeper hole and making himself look even more of a tit than usual.
I’ll be rooting for Wales this weekend.
Off way to describe the new framework by Cheika…
The way Australia play at the moment really irritates me. Lots of little cheats all over the field, whether it’s blocking, jersey pulling, coming in at the side, dodgy tackles, whatever. It dawned on me last week that it’s exactly what irritates me about Leinster - but they don’t do it so much these days because the coach who builds in these cheats now coaches Australia. Takes a while for my brain to catch up!
The framework is for referees, not the players, and used to decide whether there are red or yellow cards in a game. In my view, the officials in this tournament are using that framework very well.’
I have some sympathy for his stand. To me it is comparable to the police changing from prosecuting people who are more than 10% over the speed limit, to above 2mph over the limit and saying, it doesn’t matter what the police do we teach to drive within the limit.
The refs have been doing this since last season, nothing new here.
Just watched England v USA recorded. I'm no expert but England look pretty ropey no? Slow balls, mistakes all over the place?
Normal service has resumed.
The Ospreys are getting humped.
I am in no way having a pop at JW he is a class act (a lot of current players could.look to him and his standards) he never shirked the role of tackler and put in big hits time after time, eventually to the detriment of his body. I just don't think, and there a few old articles that think the same, that he should have had to.
Look at how much protection ford gets in his tackling channel. Yes he still has to tackle but lots of players work to cover for him. Farrell puts himself in the tackle channel like JW did, just he does it in a different way.
Anyone else think all this head collision and high tackle talk is completely ruining the world cup? There's been chat about it in almost every game.
Can't we just enjoy a nice game of rugby without having to argue about wether someone deserved to be red carded.
Can’t we just enjoy a nice game of rugby without having to argue
You must be new around these parts.
Just watched England v USA recorded. I’m no expert but England look pretty ropey no? Slow balls, mistakes all over the place?
This is my view. Eddie and some others think they are just warming up.
England haven’t been great so far, but the only two teams who have looked particularly fluid to date are NZ and SA. A lot seem to be struggling with the humidity; there have been a lot of knock ons etc.
We’ll know where we really are when we play Argentina who are Goni unto dispatch Tonga by a far bigger margin than we did.
You must be new around these parts.
A bit rich coming from the pound shop THM.
Anyway; not feeding the troll. Rugby; Japan to target no10 and try and keep the ball in play for 79.5 mins of the 80? Had a bit to say for themselves as well about the Irish scrum, I am sure that will work out well for them.
We’ll know where we really are when we play Argentina who are Goni unto dispatch Tonga by a far bigger margin than we did
Argentina were gifted a load of their points by Tonga handling errors and still couldn't manage a bigger score than we did.
I wasn’t giving Japan much hope really, but they’re no Scotland ; )
Exciting from the start. C’mon Japan!
Argentina were gifted a load of their points by Tonga handling errors and still couldn’t manage a bigger score than we did.
I switched on not longer after they’d scored the bonus point try so I didn’t see how they’d scored, but at that point it didn’t look good for Tonga who in all fairness showed some decent fight in the second half.
No matter how well England play, it’ll never be good enough for some. We’ve been far from good so far, but it’s job done. Two wins, two bonus points and no injuries, just the Francis citing but I doubt he would have played much after the first two matches anyway because he’s shit.
Japan still in it and are managing not to be outmuscled and winning possession back - which I don’t remember Wales being successful at in the warm up. If they could just stay within one score.
Bloody hell Japan.
I didn’t give them much hope after Ireland looked so clinical against Scotland last week.
Backs to the wall Ireland !
Get in!
one high quality kick and then another freebie on penalty advantage, have Ireland actually created anything of note?
This'll be a good last 20