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When I was taught to play rugby, one of the things I remember being told was never, ever, bend forwards to pick up the ball if there is an opponent coming towards you: Step past it & turn your shoulder intowards the oncoming player, thus protecting yourself & the ball. Basic stuff that seems to have been forgotten. Personally I would say the Irish player bears at least some of the responsibility for the contact.
I think he hesitated because he would have tackled him before he got to the ball, no? But he ballsed it up - simply tackling early would have only been a penalty?
No if he'd tackles him properly it would have gone back for the forward pass.
There was no whistle before that. It is odd positioning then the turn that does for him.
He's undone by his run up into the defensive line from being deep behind the line.
I see the U20s secured a second GS in a row. Another red and a yellow for the youngsters in white - clearly discipline is a problem throughout. 😀 That’d be three out of the last five years that the U20s have completed a GS. Arguably, they were headed for one in 2020 but for the pandemic. Cracking weekend for the green machine.
Loved the hug between Andy and Owen, it at least proves Owen can wrap his arms.
Oohhh - saucer of cream for LeeW
Oh I dunno, I thought it was quite funny. 😀
Oh me too. Hell of a catty comment tho
Ollie Chessum’s “little” brother Lewis looks like a serious prospect. England beaten in the end but well in it until the cards started to come out. Green machine production line in good shape!
"England players and staff were left stunned by Freddie Steward’s red card against Ireland, which the RFU will try to overturn at a disciplinary hearing on Tuesday."
Just say previous good form etc etc and being it to two games. Do not overturn it. There's no case to do that.
Now the dust of the 6N is settling which one player from any 6n side would you want to add to your team? for me its Peter O'Mahony. There are faster more skillful forwards out there although he is no donkey but what he has is a hard edge that he keeps just about inside th elaws. Never a backward step, never does his head go down. He never knows his team is beaten.
Scotland have players to match most teams in most positions and in a few cases some real world class players but we are missing that hard edge that POM brings.
Mind you I hate him when we play against him ad he has a real grudge against Glasgow.
It's a bit obvious but Antoine Dupont - the only issue would be having the quality around him that could live with and link up with him
AS a Scotland fan we have decent 9s. yes Dupont is the best in the world but I think POM would strengthen the Scots team more. Our real weakness is the lack of that hard edge that does not stray over the line to thuggery
Now the dust of the 6N is settling which one player from any 6n side would you want to add to your team? for me its Peter O’Mahony. There are faster more skillful forwards out there although he is no donkey but what he has is a hard edge that he keeps just about inside th elaws. Never a backward step, never does his head go down. He never knows his team is beaten.
It's funny because many Irish fans question how he gets on the team, he is a divisive figure along Provincial lines with most Leinster fans think Conan should start ahead of him and Dorris move to 6. I disagree but I would as a Munster fan 🙂
For me it would be Thibaud Flament, the area Ireland could do with some strengthening is 2nd row. Ryan & Beirne together is a little light weight and anyway you need at least 4 top quality locks for a tournament given number of injuries in this position.
Wooden spoon? Reminds me of this at the borders general hospital.
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he has a real grudge against
That’s his issue. He even tried to pick a fight with Sinckler after the match was won and during the celebrations, Google it.
Well, the red card has been rescinded
I am surprised. Ruled as a rugby incident? Linky?
Edit - found it on the BBC but no story just the headline
Yeah just heard it on R5 bulletin
England fullback Freddie Steward appeared before an independent Disciplinary Committee via video link having received a red card in the Guinness Six Nations match between Ireland and England on Saturday 18th March 2023 played at the Aviva Stadium.
The Red Card was issued as a result of the Referee concluding that the Player had acted contrary to Law 9.13 (A player must not tackle an opponent early, late or dangerously. Dangerous tackling includes, but is not limited to, tackling or attempting to tackle an opponent above the line of the shoulders even if the tackle starts below the line of the shoulders),
The independent Disciplinary Committee consisting of Nigel Hampton KC – Chair (New Zealand), Frank Hadden (Scotland) and John Langford (Australia) heard the case, and considered all the available evidence, including multiple broadcast angles and submissions from the Player and his representative.
After hearing the submissions, the Disciplinary Committee formally amended the Law which was breached to Law 9.11 (Players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others including leading with the elbow or forearm, or jumping into, or over, a tackler.)
The player denied that he had committed an act of foul play worthy of a red card as described in Law 9.11. Having reviewed all the evidence, the Committee decided that: (i) head contact with an opposing player had occurred; (ii) there had been an act of foul play in breach of Law 9.11 in that the Player had been reckless in his actions and in his upright positioning as he approached and came into highly dangerous contact with the other player; and (iii) there were sufficient mitigating factors including the late change in the dynamics and positioning of the opposing player which should have resulted in the issue of a yellow card rather than a red card.
On that basis, the Committee did not uphold the red card and the player is free to play again immediately.
The Committee acknowledged that match officials are required to make decisions under pressure and in the heat of a live match environment."
To me thats a really pervese decision - clearly looking for a way to downgrade it
to me its either rule it a rugby incident ie no fault and then its play on or its an act of foul play and therefore red. that simply does not fit in with the framework the refs have to use.
D'you think?
It seems fair-ish. There was a whack to the head but with mitigation.
Doesn't get him back on the field for the last 35 minutes, though.
Because under the guidelines mitigation cannot be applied for that incident
Mitigation will not apply for intentional or highly reckless acts of foul play
https://www.world.rugby/the-game/laws/guidelines/17
What they have done is a confusing fudge that will make life even harder for refs
all IMO of course
The Committee acknowledged that match officials are required to make decisions under pressure and in the heat of a live match environment.
Did they also acknowledge that despite applying the laws as supplied to them (which aimed to reduce head injuries in the sport, regardless of intent), match officials can be later undermined because it seemed a bit harsh?
It seems fair-ish. There was a whack to the head but with mitigation.
Doesn’t get him back on the field for the last 35 minutes, though.
This for me. England would not have won with Steward remaining on the pitch, but it would have been a lot closer, especially if the high tackle on Watson and the head on Ludlum had been penalised. We would have all been on the edge of our seats even more so.
I guess you’ll just have to feed off the injustice of it all. It’s ok - we’ve been doing it for centuries. 😀
From that link TJ it says that mitigation will not apply for "intentional or highly reckless acts of foul play". Based on the text above, can they then differentiate between reckless and highly reckless? In which case, it seems like they didn't deem it intentional, 'just' reckless and therefore which is why they have been able to take into account mitigation. Or is this the potential fudge you're referring to?
yes - that and the using a different law so they could apply the mitigation.
I do think a red was too harsh a punishment for the crime but I also think the ref followed the laws and guidance properly. the problem is that the lawsand guidance do not allow the flexibility to make " common sense" decisions.
for me its either accidental - play on or red card. I just do not see how they can make it a yellow
I do think a red was too harsh a punishment for the crime but I also think the ref followed the laws and guidance properly. the problem is that the lawsand guidance do not allow the flexibility to make ” common sense” decisions.
This.
The decision was made based on events as if they were described in writing alone - but the reality was quite different when viewed and common sense would have said to play on.
Did they downgrade it to a yellow to save face rather than face the music that would inevitably been aimed at them for admitting it shouldn't have been penalised?
Well it's all the degree of negligence isn't it?
I find myself asking, what was he actually hoping to achieve? He ran toward the opponent, upright position, made no attempt to tackle or dodge, just turned a bit sideways and barged in. What was he aiming for here, legitimately within the rules of the game?
and barged in
Thats in correct. He checked and was pretty much stood still.
England would not have won with Steward remaining on the pitch but it would have been a lot closer
Why do you think that. Keenan subsequently failed a HIA and we were then without one of the most in-form players in the tournament.
Maybe the margin would have been higher.
Probably would have been 3 or four more tries.
Keenan's had a habit of scoring important tries, and setting them up.
And ripping into teams last quarter.
Still, wouldn't have materially effected the table as they got the bonus point anyway.
He was not still at impact - he jumped and turned and was in the air traveling forward at impact. Nor was Keenans motion " a sudden change in height" - he was at that height for a couple of paces
Edit - its a fudge to get what would be a fairish punishment without throwing the ref completely under the bus
He was not still at impact – he jumped and turned and was in the air traveling forward at impact. Nor was Keenans motion ” a sudden change in height” – he was at that height for a couple of paces
I think you have to look at it in real time. In slo-mo it looks bad, but basically he is on an international rugby field with a chance of getting the ball & then has to back out in the last moment. He has very little time to react.
OH I quite agree. He reacted badly but its a split second decision. He could have put his hands out.
Its not a charge into a ruck with arm tucked. I think he was very unfortunate but if instead he had put his hands out its unlikely Keenan gets a head injury and unlikely that any sanction would be taken
In attempting to get consistency the tight guidance allows for no discretion
deadlydarcy
Free Member
I guess you’ll just have to feed off the injustice of it all. It’s ok – we’ve been doing it for centuries. 😀
Maybees adapt a song?
By a lonely changing room wall
I heard an English coach call
Freddie, they have taken you away
For you stole Keenan's wits
Cause you can't control your hits
Now posh biscuits are tucked under your arm.
With apologies to the Dubliners and every other Irish band....
Nigel Owens take on the red card
There are a couple of things from the Freddie Steward decision which leave me scratching my head. A lot of referees I have spoken to are split: Was it reckless? Was there foul play? Was there mitigation? Or was it just an unavoidable "rugby collision" and play on. It comes down to your view on the day as a referee.
I couldn't argue if a red or yellow card had been given to Steward, but here is where I feel there is plenty of confusion.
If you do not believe Steward has done anything wrong, that it was a complete accident, a rugby collision, then there is no foul play and it's play on. Or, you can say Steward was careless but apply mitigation to apply a yellow card. But if, as the panel have found, you think Steward was reckless and there was foul play, then you are talking about a red-card offence.
My understanding was, and is, that if you have foul play and a reckless action, then the mitigation doesn't play a part in the process. Which is why the outcome of the hearing is a surprise. They haven't decided it was an accident or just a rugby collision, they have said that Steward was reckless and there was foul play. I am not sure, therefore, how they can apply mitigation.
I have used this scenario before: if you are driving and meeting the 30mph speed limit and someone runs out in front of you who you can't avoid, it's an accident and out of your control. If you are going 40mph – over the limit – and that happens, you are being reckless and don't have a leg to stand on.
I could understand if Steward had not been sent off. But I cannot understand the panel's verdict to reduce the punishment if they felt he was being reckless.
Watching it happen, I felt that if Steward had stood his ground and braced himself for impact, then he would have done nothing wrong. But the fact he was still moving forward and turned to not make a legal tackle... I feel he could have done something different to avoid that. And that's where the foul play comes in. In those conversations I have had with other referees, some are on a red card, some on yellow and some are just play on – and the reason some view it only as a sin-bin offence is because there is no reckless foul play in the first place by Steward, not because of any mitigation. Something about the committee's outcome does not add up.
Former players also divided
Hugo Keenan is not going in upright, he's down towards the chest level of Steward, and that would have counted as mitigation if Steward had done everything he could to avoid a collision. But I'm not sure he did, which is why I felt it was closer to a red card. There is almost a half skip or a jump forward into the contact. Ex-players I have spoken to are also divided, with those leaning toward red doing so because of how Steward comes in. Whereas others are saying they don't know how Steward can do anything different.
Jaco Peyper in that situation is following the framework because he views the incident as reckless and foul play - as have the judiciary – and Jaco has therefore rightly ended up with a red card. You can't be in a position where you think you're going to give a yellow card, but if a player goes off for a head injury assessment you then increase the sanction. Jaco, in terms of following the framework, has done everything right.
I think the judiciary needs to look at their wording, at why they are applying mitigation when they say it's reckless and foul play. Or, the framework needs to be adjusted so referees can apply mitigation. But if you do that, you are on dangerous ground.
Referees should always use a final real-time replay
I once gave a red card to Iain Henderson in a game between Ulster and Munster, and then saw it again on review after the match and thought "b----- hell, Nigel, that's not a red card", and it was quite rightly overturned – but because the foul play was not a red-card offence in the first place.
The Steward incident looks a lot worse in slow-motion, but slowing it down can help you see exactly what has happened. I would always base my ultimate decision though on a final real-time replay, which I think officials need to make sure they do before deciding on a call.
Finally, there is an ongoing trial in Super Rugby in which players can be shown yellow cards and then the incident is reviewed off-field and potentially upgraded to a red card. The Steward example would not fit with that. You have a 60-40 split among referees I have spoken to between it not being a red card and Steward being sent off.
There are four people and the TMO in the box who should be able to make the right decision after a few replays. I don't see the benefit of the TMO having a further eight-minute window to review it. The best officials are appointed for these games for a reason. We need to trust them to make the right calls on the field.
Interesting that the dynamics of the situation didn't come into play in previous citing boards
Was it fagerson who hit a ruck just as a player moved position and got clocked?
Steward was moving forward and was never in a bent position to make a tackle. Yes he turned but it was always going to be a dodgy contact.
Or as I believe has been said on past, non white, cases. Dry your eyes it's been done (and now fudged).
Team of the 6N. Not mine but from two sources.
PA NEWS AGENCY
15. Hugo Keenan (Ireland)
14. Damian Penaud (France)
13. Huw Jones (Scotland)
12. Gael Fickou (France)
11. Mack Hansen (Ireland)
10. Finn Russell (Scotland)
09. Antoine Dupont (France)
08. Caelan Doris (Ireland)
07. Josh Van der Flier (Ireland)
06. Sebastian Negri (Italy)
05. James Ryan (Ireland)
04. Thibaud Flament (France)
03. Finlay Bealham (Ireland)
02. Dan Sheehan (Ireland)
01. Pierre Schoeman (Scotland)
PLANETRUGBY.COM
15. Thomas Ramos (France)
14. Damian Penaud (France)
13. Huw Jones (Scotland)
12. Sione Tuipulotu (Scotland)
11. James Lowe (Ireland)
10. Johnny Sexton (Ireland)
09. Antoine Dupont (France)
08. Caelan Doris (Ireland)
07. Francois Cros (France)
06. Charles Ollivon (France)
05. James Ryan (Ireland)
04. Thibaud Flament (France)
03. Finlay Bealham (Ireland)
02. Dan Sheehan (Ireland)
01. Andrew Porter (Ireland)
Whats yours? Sexytoes or Finnsanity at 10?
Can you make a case for any England player?
Does anyone NOT have Dupont at 9?
Why is big Ritchie not in either team?
Why is Duhan not in either team? Does his sometimes poor defensive positioning outweigh his ridiculous scoring and tackle breaking stats?
🙂
No one? I expect leads of bleating from AA 😉
If the answer at 12 isn't Fickou the teams not worth looking at...other than that too many welsh
I expect leads of bleating from AA
Too busy counting Welsh six nations championships and grand slams...Scotland meanwhile..........
Also one team has Mack Hansen and the other has James Lowe when Penaud and zan Der Whatsit are available. Madness. Ireland are an excellent team but the two wingers are relative weaknesses.
Huwipuloto! so good they only have one name between them
I mean who is more scottish ( and hates the English more) than them - a south african with a welsh name and an Aussie born Polynesian with a granny from Greenock
( Actually Jones was born in leith 🙂 )
I actually think too many Scots in those teams. the only one yo can really argue for is Finn and its not obvious between him and Sexytoes
Duhan despite being a formidable attacker ( and great stats) was caught out defensively too often again. Mind you I could watch him handing off Dombrant time and time again. How embarrassing for a no8 to be handed off by a winger 🙂
It might not be even be Dombrants most embarrassing play in the tournament. He just looks ponderous in international rugby.
Hogg to retire after world cup
By the look of things the great AWJ has also played his last game at home for Ospreys
Hoggs lost a touch of pace and his form and injury record over the last couple of years is not great. Understandable call - he is not going to be the automatic pick at 15 in future for Scotland
Delete
Anyone here coached any Youth teams that can provide some advice?
After our head coach leaves this season I've been ask to consider volunteering at my kids club as a Backs coach from September. This is on the basis a) I've played before and b) I can't stop enthusiastically pacing the touch line and reading the game banging out advice and the occasional "****sake!"
The club will pay for a level one basic qualification which is great, but what I'd really like to know is what is the realistic time commitment?
By the look of things the great AWJ has also played his last game at home for Ospreys
Yeah, but then he is about 30 years older than Hogg and has 3 grand slams in his back pocket, coincidentally that's the same as Scotland although now one less than Ireland now.....
@Kryton57 a fair amount 2training sessions and game on Saturday. I'd guess the coaching course a first aid course and possibly a reffing course.
Very rewarding but parents can be a pain.
As long as your not head coach the work load should be bearable, the level 1 course was a full weekend when I did it but was really good fun. One thing I would say is ask your son about how he feels about having his dad as one of the coaches?
All good points thanks. I have asked my son and he's ok with it, although he's so laid back he probably wouldn't see an issue anyway, but my own Dad ruined the Scouts for me, so I am conscious of that.
Fur us its Wednesday Training and Sunday Training / Match, but this would be on top of 5 bike training sessions a week plus work leaving me no time at all for anything else. I think perhaps this is a stretch too far - if I wasn't bike training & racing I could do it, so maybe its a thought for years to come.
Anyone watches Eng V Wales women’s 6N? What a game, I thought Wales had it on the 1H but England really sorted themselves out after that. Some monumental efforts from both sides.
A couple of interesting stats
Ryan Wilson is leaving Glasgow after 13 years and 220 caps - only 8 yellow cards in that time. Given he is at the centre of every bout of handbags and a real wind up man thats remarkable but the one that got me was that Glasgow have only kicked one penalty goal this year. Every other pen has gone to the corners. that shows attacking intent alright
Yep Glasgow are a good team to watch this season. I hope they manage to put some silverware on the table.
Nowell fined £10k for calling a ridiculous ruling ridiculous on social media
Take someone's head off, turn up with biscuits and have a seat for 3 weeks. To be fair Dickson was caught between a rock and a hard place but the ruling sets a rubbish precident for the last 5m of the pitch.
I saw that, ref seemed almost apologetic but from my time with the whistle - we don't set the laws, just apply them, and as soon as you start to busk the ones you don't like, consistency disappears and you let your reffing colleagues down.
I also just was catching up on missed posts, and @kryton - don't want to muddy waters unduly but did you decide to / not to put your hand up for coaching. Because my 2p, which you didn't ask for but you're getting it anyway 😉
If you don't, who else will? Does it compromise overall. Not to bully you into it but can be a factor, the same few always seem to be the ones that coach, man the bar / BBQ, paint the scorebox, put the ground to bed at the end of the season and so on.
You say with your own training there's no time, maybe in a couple of year's time. Will the opportunity be there in a couple of years time? Although in many ways I screwed up my son's basketball I absolutely look back on them with fondness, the times we spent with me helping and fetching and carrying for the coach and sharing the experience while it was there. Just like weeksy is living the dream through his son. Don't miss that opportunity, or put different - if you decide to pass up on it now in favour of your own aspirations, get your head properly in that game and do justice to the decision.
Free advice, worth what you paid for it, apologies if it is a bit direct.
I get the rules is rules part (ex-ref) but now as a captain I'd be asking the question about every tackle when the player dives for the line and is hit in the air. Wet plastic pitch bet you can slide it in from at least 5m out
Imagine penalty on the 5m get winger running at full belt, pop pass to him and he hits the deck immediately. Try time every time.
Josh Navidi has retired after failing to overcome neck injury. 😟
Just read that. Pretty gutted, I always liked watching him playing (except when he was facing Glasgow or Scotland).
That's a shame, he always looked like a handful.
I was just about to post about Navidi.
I’m a huge fan-boi, loved watching him play. I met him in Saundersfoot a couple of years ago, really nice guy, embarrassingly apologetic about getting injured, especially when he was in a patch of good form.
Just as we thought Welsh rugby couldn't sink further (till next season when all the good players have left) Dai Young gets suspended by Cardiff. Who can they afford to get in to replace him, my nan probably...can't wait to see the usual Welsh way of leaving no stone unturned in a worldwide search for the best talent only to end up promoting the currently under achieving forwards coach at Cardiff to head bus. Who is Cardiff forwards coach?
Josh Navidi has retired after failing to overcome neck injury.
That's awful. Can only wish him all the best in the future
I cannot see how rugby can survive as anything like the game we know. The toll on the players is just too much. Head injuries and dementia, other injuries leading to life long issues. Its just too brutal. these guys are wrecking their bodies and brains for our entertainment.
Watching a game last night forwards running with the ball so doubled over that a legal tackle is just about impossible and the ball players head is in such a vulnerable position. Massive collisions between behemoths
I have no idea what can be done but I just do not see how the game can survive. This makes sobering reading
Josh Navidi has retired after failing to overcome neck injury. 😟
Such a shame. One of my favourite non-England players. Always seemed to me less spoken about than Faletau, for example, but always an exceptional performer.
Currently watching a try-fest worthy of Twickers between Quins and Bath.
Hogg's interview about his retiring does highlight the physical battering they take. Both his knees are suffering. Mind you that's not new saw Kim Renwick up the park today and I think he's now got two new knees.
I cannot see how rugby can survive as anything like the game we know. The toll on the players is just too much. Head injuries and dementia, other injuries leading to life long issues. Its just too brutal. these guys are wrecking their bodies and brains for our entertainment
This
I really fear that the players have outgrown the game. To big, fast and strong at the professional level.
My son got bitten in one of the games in his u12's tournament today...quite awkward as it was the son of the physio I see who did it...
Well so much for professionalism.
LCD has jeopardised his Montpelier contract by missing the medical because he was on the lash the night before.
That's a few expensive beers.
I really fear that the players have outgrown the game. To big, fast and strong at the professional level.
Those of us that have played will understand the camaraderie and all other things that keep you loving to be part of a Rugby team. But you read that Dylan Hartley account and - he’s 37 - would never wish that physical abuse on your kids. I can’t imagine being that age and having the physical and potential brain issues he has. Horrible.
I'm not sure what the answer is.
My instinct says the priority has to be to reduce the size and/or speed of the players. In order to do that it has to be made more aerobic rather than anaerobic.
That's the main reason I want to see the tackle height reduced. If the players can run upright with the ball held high without fear of getting wrapped up in a choke tackle and conceding the turnover I think it would encourage more offloading and get away from the defensive line system that is actually quite static.
I think part of the issue is that players have more time to train but I think the biggest impact of professionalism has been defensive systems that make open running continuous play almost impossible.
So yeah, I'd like a range of initiatives to make the game more aerobic. The Jonah Lomus should be the exception, rather than the rule.
Problem is, the game will almost certainly become less 'spectacular' as a result of that so I can't see it being adopted anytime soon.
Watched a couple of games at the weekend, might as well have been league. Defence putting no-one into the ruck and throwing a line across the pitch with a hard press.
There is no way on god's green earth that players in the ruck are supporting their own body weight and like that it's almost impossible to drive them off and the possibility of head contact is high so why risk it? Easier to give up the ruck and defend across the pitch.
Watched a couple of games at the weekend, might as well have been league.
From the point of view of what I was talking about above (aerobic vs anaerobic) Union is probably worse than League.
As you say, players spend a lot of time standing in a line across the pitch, but at least in League they are constantly having to jog back 10, run forward, jog back 10...
It would be an interesting study to investigate the energy usage during a game of League vs Union and if/how this correlates to the amount of energy in the impacts.
Anyone on here watch the French league? watched a highlights program from the weekends matches and must say looked amazing. Might try and catch some of the games in the run in and playoffs as they are shown on Viaplay which I have access to already.
Sarries got beaten a few weeks ago because they could cope with the French style. Basically out sarrie'd in the forwards then outrun in the backs.
Gallagher league style seems fixed. Irish do we'll be not conforming.
Sarries got beaten a few weeks ago because they could cope with the French style. Basically out sarrie’d in the forwards then outrun in the backs.
Gallagher league style seems fixed. Irish do we’ll be not conforming.
It's 90% based on budget. French budget is biggest along with the likes of Leinster.