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Ireland were the better team by a fair margin. I think a win next week will make this a good six nations for Scotland.
Nope - this is supposed to be the best Scots team for a generation - 4 wins would be good, 3 is the minimum anything less is failure
Not quite sure which is the fourth game you expected to win to turn it from being a failure tbh. Results have gone more or less according to form and rankings haven’t they?
EDIT: sorry, thought you’d written that three would be a failure.
The World Rankings show the gulf between the top 4 and the rest. Scotland could reasonably expect to be 3rd after Ireland and France and it looks like that might be the case.
Yes - but if we want to be amongst the best we needed to beat at least one of France or Ireland and we have not. We need to beat teams above us in the rankings
@tjagain I wish I shared your optimism. I suspect this six nations and hopefully the forthcoming world cup will be a highpoint for Scotland in terms of the quality of rugby played although that won't necessarily equate to tournaments won or a run to the late stages of the world cup.
Its not optimism. Its a statement of where we are. Want to challenge the big boys we need to beat them. this year is the best opportunity for a while and we have fallen short.
Once Scotland got behind they forced it too much and when they started attacking wide off poor ball and the forward effort had dropped off and the weren’t getting front foot ball they were easy pickings for Ireland.
Yeah sadly the confidence they have built thus far in 6N just evaporated at that moment, and didn't really come back.
They'll beat Italy for sure.
Its not optimism. Its a statement of where we are.
As good as the national side is just now, I think it is a brief spike. It isn’t where we are because there are no players left in Scotland.There are probably thirty clubs in Scotland with a 2xv. Dundee; 1 state school plays rugby and only up to u14. I am back playing for my first club at 54 so they can get to the end of the season before they fold on their terms; that will be 3 clubs in Dundee gone since Covid with another unlikely to start next year.The u20’s score should be all over the rugby sites as a stark warning of what is to come. I don’t think we will get out of our WC group at which point our 30 somethings will retire.
Can't really argue with any of that. Arguably, it's the fact that Scottish people tend to travel for work and have kids while they are abroad that's keeping the national team in business.
As duckman says we're staring down a hole.
When I played at Gala there was Gala, the YM (3teams) and the Star (3teams) now only Gala and YM 1st, not enough player for much else. Hawick has lost two junior clubs with another teetering.
It'll be a national side with very few UK passport holders soon (not that there's many now) and then where's the drive for younger players?
Can’t really argue with any of that. Arguably, it’s the fact that Scottish people tend to travel for work and have kids while they are abroad that’s keeping the national team in business.
Yep, I would say your SA B team players and other imports are papering over the cracks. Without them you would be in the same place as Wales.
Oh god scotland rugby going down also?
This is bad news.
Yep, I would say your SA B team players and other imports are papering over the cracks. Without them you would be in the same place as Wales.
What about your imports?
What about your imports?
We have quite a few less but they do the same thing. Only really Anscombe at moment and he's permacrocked
Want to challenge the big boys we need to beat them. this year is the best opportunity for a while and we have fallen short.
First you have to consistently beat your peers, and lesser teams like England, home and away, which you've done. It took a lot of work and time for France and Ireland to advance to where they are, and there's no reason to think that Scotland have peaked.
and there’s no reason to think that Scotland have peaked.
Someone obviously hasn't seen the latest Scotland U20s result 🙂
There are probably thirty clubs in Scotland with a 2xv
That’s probably a bit low, but the number isnt in the 100’s. I’m playing for Annan 2nds. Apart from Dumfries, there isnt any Club in D&G who regularly put out 2 teams. We’ve had more games cancelled than we’ve played this year. We’ve only won one game, yet finished 5th in the halfway league table, all due to other Clubs cancelling, so we get the win points.
we were at Langholm 2 weeks ago, amazing little Club who have had 6+ Scottish players, one Lion, and various other top players in their past, yet they are down to one team.
It isnt just Scotland, my English Club is thriving with 2 teams whenever they can get 2 fixtures, but, they are struggling to get fixtures, as other teams cannot get a 2nd XV out. Wales are in an even worse state according to a friend from Newport. The Minis, girls,under 14’s etc are thriving, but once they hit 15, they do not stay playing, so the Senior teams are short of players.
I’ve been playing a long time, in that time I have seen at least 30 local (within 30 miles) Clubs fold. Almost always due to lack of players. The RFU seem oblivious to this, and , as long as the income from the internationals keeps coming in, they are happy to carry on as they are. That some Welsh Regions are close to folding, and 2 English Premiership Clubs have finished in the last 6 months does not seem to have registered on their radar yet.
That’s probably a bit low, but the number isnt in the 100’s.
Just added up all the 2XV's in the reserve leagues and district leagues in Scotland ( don't work Mondays and mildly unwell after Murrayfield yesterday.) There are 56 2xv's in Scotland and 11 3xv's. But there are only 10 2xv's outside of Glasgow and Edinburgh. So yeah, I was pessimistic. However; according to the SRU there are 38,500 participants in Scotland which is just over 138 players per club!
Someone obviously hasn’t seen the latest Scotland U20s result
I think you have to be careful taking too much meaning from this, U20s is a narrow slice of the pool of future players.
First you have to consistently beat your peers, and lesser teams like England, home and away, which you’ve done.
Accurate.
Re duckmans comment about those over 30 requiring. I counted them there are 12 in the current Scotland squad who will be 31 or older this year. I won't give you the names the bare numbers are frightening enough.
PS. Anything to avoid working
But there are only 10 2xv’s outside of Glasgow and Edinburgh. So yeah, I was pessimistic
You also forgot to include 1/3 of the SA players as well 🤪
Hogg and Russell out for Italy. KInghorns gonna have to play 10 and 15 🙂
Hogg and Russell out for Italy. KInghorns gonna have to play 10 and 15
Interesting, could Ben Healy get a game?
Thats what folk are saying but I think it would be the wrong thing to do. He maybe is one for the future but its far too soon. He has not been added to the squad as far as I know
anagallis_arvensis
Full Member
You also forgot to include 1/3 of the SA players as well 🤪
You dream of being able to afford Saffers!
You dream of being able to afford Saffers!
Yes, you are right, if only we could buy our way to the dizzy highs of 3 six nations wins in a season!
YOu need to buy better! According to this there are 11 non welshborn players in the squad
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/warren-gatlands-six-nations-squad-8495955
Yes, you are right, if only we could buy our way to the dizzy highs of 3 six nations wins in a season!
Clearly bought your last G/S with money you don’t have. Maybe it should be Saracens and not Ealing that are buying a team from the WRU?
Only kidding AA and I hope the weather improves before the weekend, otherwise Ken Owen’s Mum will never get the strips for Saturday out to dry, who are you playing again?
According to this there are 11 non welshborn players in the squad
That's from 2015. This is more recent:
https://www.ruck.co.uk/foreign-born-players-in-the-2023-six-nations-breakdown-by-country/
France 4
England 5
Italy 6
Wales 7
Ireland 8
Scotland 21
**** me, we're back to the birther arguments?
Like I said earlier, Scots travel and while they travel they have kids.
It wouldn't surprise me if the number of people with Scottish parents or grandparents who were born outside of Scotland outnumber the number of people born in Scotland.
Ken Owen’s Mum will never get the strips for Saturday out to dry, who are you playing again?
No idea, I think I'm busy this weekend.
This is more recent:
Tshiunza, Faletau, North all non Welsh born but all have grown up in Wales and have come through the Welsh system...all are Welsh.
This is more recent:
Tshiunza, Faletau, North all non Welsh born but all have grown up in Wales and have come through the Welsh system…all are Welsh
and you can have Tompkins and Cuthbert back, so that only really leaves us with Francis and Roberts
Like I said earlier, Scots travel and while they travel they have kids.
And some get capped by Australia but then get to end their career playing for the lesser team!! 🤪
and you can have Tompkins and Cuthbert back, so that only really leaves us with Francis and Roberts
Cuthbert was a good player ten years ago! Roberts is awful, he can go back to Ireland...Francis we'll keep in the hope he finds some form
It's because we are all incredibly attractive and all the natives we encounter on our travels want to bed us.
*preens*
I think foreign born is a slightly arbitrary measure, lots of people work abroad and many return home to raise their kids, Ronan O'Gara was born in the US, Jamie Heaslip was born in Israel. I don't think anyone is seriously arguing they are not Irish. The project players are different, Lowe, Stander etc. First thing Stander did after retiring was return to SA, I cheered him playing for Ireland but looking back I would have preferred someone with a stronger connection to the country, even if he was another bloody Leinster squad player.
It's an easy standard surely. You have to hold a passport for that country to qualify for that country.
It’s an easy standard surely. You have to hold a passport for that country to qualify for that country.
We don't need another Scottish (or Welsh) independence thread 😉
Scotland might have beaten NZ at one thing then...hoovering up players from other countries.
I'll take a win over NZ, any win over NZ.😁
Turns out 50 Million people claim Scottish ancestry, so looks like Teej has been doing more than preening ( tilts head,pours bleach into ear.) This thread has taken a rather strange turn, hasn't it?
Turns out 50 Million people claim Scottish ancestry, so looks like Teej has been doing more than preening ( tilts head,pours bleach into ear.
Isn’t he genetically English?
Isn’t he genetically English?
NOpe - I share 60% of my genes with the Sami people of lapland! The rest the usual mix of Dane, German and French 🙂
So the Wooden spoon is that for coming last or for no wins? Asking for a friend, you know, just in case Scotland **** it up again!!!
In theory its zero wins. However usually nowadays used in the 6N for bottom of the table
I say the wooden spoon is no wins. It's the opposite of a Grand Slam.
But I also say that a billion is a million million, not a thousand million, so no one pays any attention to what I think.
It was always used to be zero wins, that was before people started to use points scored, tries etc to separate teams with the same number of points. I was at the Ireland V Wales game in 1990 when Wales got their first one. Game was a Wooden Spoon decider something we thought was quite funny but Wales were seriously unhappy about.
World XV v Italy.
15. Ollie Smith (Glasgow Warriors) 2 caps
14. Kyle Steyn (Glasgow Warriors) 9 caps
13. Huw Jones (Glasgow Warriors) 35 caps
12. Sione Tuipulotu (Glasgow Warriors) – Vice-Captain – 15 caps
11. Duhan van der Merwe (Edinburgh Rugby) 27 caps
10. Blair Kinghorn (Edinburgh Rugby) 42 caps
9. Ben White (London Irish) 13 caps
1. Pierre Schoeman (Edinburgh Rugby) 20 caps
2. George Turner (Glasgow Warriors) 34 caps
3. Zander Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) 57 caps
4. Sam Skinner (Edinburgh Rugby) 24 caps
5. Jonny Gray (Exeter Chiefs) – Vice-Captain – 76 caps
6. Jamie Ritchie (Edinburgh Rugby) – Captain – 40 caps
7. Hamish Watson (Edinburgh Rugby) 56 caps
8. Jack Dempsey (Glasgow Warriors) 8 caps
Replacements
16. Ewan Ashman (Sale Sharks) 6 caps
17. Rory Sutherland (Ulster Rugby) 22 caps
18. WP Nel (Edinburgh Rugby) 53 caps
19. Scott Cummings (Glasgow Warriors) 24 caps
20. Matt Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors) 32 caps
21. Ali Price (Glasgow Warriors) 60 caps
22. Ben Healy (Munster) uncapped
23. Cameron Redpath (Bath Rugby) 4 caps
Not too bad but no big Ritchie is a loss as of course is Dancer
Wales: 15. Louis Rees-Zammit, 14. Josh Adams, 13. George North, 12. Nick Tompkins, 11. Rio Dyer, 10. Dan Biggar, 9. Rhys Webb, 1. Wyn Jones, 2. Ken Owens (capt), 3. Tomas Francis, 4. Adam Beard, 5. Alun Wyn Jones, 6. Aaron Wainwright, 7. Justin Tipuric, 8. Taulupe Faletau.
Replacements: 16. Bradley Roberts, 17. Gareth Thomas, 18. Dillon Lewis, 19. Dafydd Jenkins, 20. Tommy Reffell, 21. Tomos Williams, 22. Owen Williams, 23. Leigh Halfpenny.
all change again. good to see Faletau get his 100th cap
Gah, Tompkins
World XV v Italy.
V good.
BTW, if you look at the Scotland list out of 21 I think 2/3rds came from England Ireland Wales, so i don't really think they count as real forriners. I only put it there to wind you up.
My feeling is that if world rugby set the rules, you exploit them to the max. If you are given a penalty spot, you don't go back 10 do you, so why wouldn't any team not use the residency rules etc.
Anyway for your entertainment so many of my mates are harbouring some kind of delusion that we will give Ireland a good go it is making my teeth itch.
If you wanted to look at possibility of upset from most to least likely is France Wales, Italy Scotland, Ireland England.
France often have a brain fart game, and they have not really yet, and the welsh are always capable of something mad.
Scotland may have taken a confidence hit and Italy are riding high no matter what, so it seems possible.
England are just shit and seem to wear it with pride, so Ireland should utterly roger us.
I think upsets are very unlikely but Italy to beat Scotland is the most likely.
I think upsets are very unlikely but Italy to beat Scotland is the most likely.
I would go along with this.
Scotland have to beat Italy, otherwise there will be a lot of egg on faces. However, Italy do have a slight outside chance.
Ireland should comfortably beat England. However well England play will not be enough- unless the pressure gets too much for Ireland. But, they are so much better than England that I cannot see anything unexpected happening even then.
I fear that France are more likely to put 80 points on Wales, than Wales produce a win.
[Unless red cards occur, then things might change - some games might require two cards to the same team.]
some kind of delusion that we will give Ireland a good go
My Marketing Manager is Irish and she said she's bricking it against an England loss, I couldtn understand it personally, we are going to get another shoeing. Anyway, the team for Saturday:
15. Freddie Steward
14. Anthony Watson
13. Henry Slade
12. Manu Tuilagi
11. Henry Arundell
10. Owen Farrell (C)
9. Jack van Poortvliet
1. Ellis Genge (VC)
2. Jamie George
3. Kyle Sinckler
4. Maro Itoje
5. David Ribbans
6. Lewis Ludlam (VC)
7. Jack Willis
8. Alex Dombrandt
Replacements
16. Jack Walker
17. Mako Vunipola
18. Dan Cole
19. Nick Isiekwe
20. Ben Curry
21. Alex Mitchell
22. Marcus Smith
23. Joe Marchant
Good to see Arundell make a case for himself and Marchant on the bench but I don't think this impacts the result a jot TBH. Maybe an early lead due to Irelands nerves are the nest we can hope for out of this, but the end result will be the same.
I fear that France are more likely to put 80 points on Wales, than Wales produce a win.
I agree, but the midfield should be far more secure defensively than the one that played Italy. I am hopeful they can keep it under 50!!
Borthwick seems to have no plan to me. Farrell back as 10 and captain. Another revamped side. This must be difficult for the players as from where I am the game plan seems to change each game.
England JVP is not a good 9. Too slow delivery, needs a wild card like chapman. Farrell will receive the ball and the defence. Manu wants to prove his worth, last time he did this he was red carded to be honest can see England getting cards especially if the go behind early.
As an England fan, I've reorganised my day so I can get drunk early.
England JVP is not a good 9.
Must be better options than Dombrant at 8 as well surely?
Ireland for the weekend. Given the championship so far, that’s not too bad a fifteen to be starting.
15. Hugo Keenan
14. Mack Hansen
13. Robbie Henshaw
12. Bundee Aki
11. James Lowe
10. Johnny Sexton (captain)
9. Jamison Gibson-Park
1. Andrew Porter
2. Dan Sheehan
3. Tadhg Furlong
4. Ryan Baird
5. James Ryan
6. Peter O’Mahony
7. Josh van der Flier
8. Caelan Doris
Replacements:
16. Rob Herring
17. Cian Healy
18. Tom O’Toole
19. Kieran Treadwell
20. Jack Conan
21. Conor Murray
22. Ross Byrne
23. Jimmy O’Brien
Well we knew it was coming but that team is going to beat the living shit out of England. What a fantastic extension to Paddy’s day.
Just thought I'd stick this in here. As a Tigers fan and some one experiencing cancer in the family at the moment I think this is a great cause.
On the 6 nations, Hopefully England aren't embarrased again but there is only so many changes Borthwick can make to the elite player squad at the moment, so he's a bit hamstrung. I reckon there will be a few more changes for the summer.
If Ireland get the GS, they fully deserve it and the world number one spot. Got to be favourites for the WC.
Much as I’d rather wales did not get the wooden spoon - c’mon Italy 😀
OI! We all like to see Italy win but please not beating Scotland - again
Stuck at side of M4 with broken down car. With luck the Wales game will be over by the time the rac arrive
As an England fan, I’ve reorganised my day so I can get drunk early.
Are you drunk yet @Kryton57?? Reckon I'll be asleep before the match kicks off...I'll have had at least half a pint by then 😂 (last of the big drinkers I am not)
The game really needs Italy to score next, for the neutral.
Are you drunk yet @Kryton57?? Reckon I’ll be asleep before the match kicks off…I’ll have had at least half a pint by then 😂 (last of the big drinkers I am not)
Did a 1:50 Zwift race earlier, so in the interest of Biological repair / HGH production I haven't started drinking yet, I reckon mid way through the France/Wales match will see me breaking out the Madri.
The game really needs Italy to score next, for the neutral.
Thanks. 🙄
Good try from italy and deserved
Paolo Garbisi is so likeable.
Game on now 😀
Scotland are going to lose this
I don’t believe that
****ing hell, being a Scotland fan isn’t good for your health!
Tell me about it
Harsh on Italy - they deserved a point or two from that but what a great last score from Scotland
Classic Scots accent in the interview.... is it one of the islands?
Who?
Congratulations Scotland. A shame for Italy, on another day the scores could have been reversed.
I fear that game was far more enjoyable than the France v Wales game coming up ☹️. This could be hellish.