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I confidently predict that England will kick the butts of South Africa next week.
... Oh, wait - no I don't
Whoever makes the final deserves to be there.
It does not matter who makes the final so long as they play like today between France vs S. Africa.
Argentina vs NZ, will there be a surprised or a sure win for NZ?
No-one gave them a chance in the semi vs NZ 4 years ago.
"What are you guys on about, didn’t you hear Sir Clive earlier? He said that England wouldn’t be worried about either France or SA"
They should be.
Unless there's a crooked ref next week, ingurlund will be completely mullered by Saffrika. Again.
Good to see the scores so close, this weekend showing there's not too.much between the top 8.
Too 4 maybe. Big gulf after that
Good to see the scores so close, this weekend showing there’s not too.much between the top 8.
Did'nt the top 4 all play one another this weekend, while 6,7,8 and 10 contested the other games
As I see it:
SA, IRELAND, NZ and FRANCE
SCOTLAND maybe?
WALES ENGLAND ARGENTINA FIJI
Is the current hierarchy. Scotland had a tough group and recent 6N's put them ahead of Wales and England.
I'd say top 4 can beat each other on any given day. Ditto bottom 4, with Scotland slightly ahead of them. Australia seem to be in free fall.
England are above Scotland in the World rankings.
Ireland were above NZ last night....
Ireland were above NZ last night….
Yes, and I think it could be argued that NZ are the better team, although there's not much in it.
As I see it:
SA, IRELAND, NZ and FRANCE
SCOTLAND maybe?
WALES ENGLAND ARGENTINA FIJI
Is the current hierarchy. Scotland had a tough group and recent 6N’s put them ahead of Wales and England.
I’d say top 4 can beat each other on any given day. Ditto bottom 4, with Scotland slightly ahead of them. Australia seem to be in free fall.
thats about it. that was what the rankings said at the beginning of the tournament
top 4 well clear. Scotland beenchasing them for a while but falling back. a clear gulf between the top 4 and the rest
@gauss still below according to World Rugby Rankings if only by a "ba hair"
5th Scotland 83.43
6th England 83.24
While we are on rankings, interesting difference between world rankings and world cup results. Scotland and Ireland don't have a great world cup record and that has carried on despite their decent recent form. England do seem to be able to step up for world cups. They are definitely a top 4 world cup team historically (albeit 4th 🙂 ) Three of last years semi finalists are back again.
:Last WC scotland were rubbish with a coach and teamat oddsand a coachthat did not know what he was doing.
This WC we get it together and are playing well - the groups put us in with two very good teams with playing styles we find hard to play against
England still have not played a top team. We have played two
There's definitely a difference between knock out rugby and a full year of 6N, Rugby Championship/test matches, etc.
However, it's probably worth remembering that England won by 6 points against a team which is coming off the back of being beaten by Portugal.
Ireland got beaten by NZ who got beaten by France who got beaten by SA who got beaten by Ireland*.
The right teams are going to end up in the final (I think!) but I really don't think you can compare which stage each team goes out in the competition with how good they are in any meaningful way. At least not for this particular WC.
*which is crazy for all this to have happened in one tournament.
Caher
Good to see the scores so close, this weekend showing there’s not too.much between the top 8.
I also thought it was great to see such entertaining matches. The last 3 were so good, I've completely forgotten what Wales v Argentina was like. I'd also forgotten about Red Bull Rampage when someone asked if I watched it!
At least not for this particular WC.
Well yes, a single result is pretty meaningless. The point wasn't that it happened this time, the point was that it has happened yet again, despite the form going in.
The gulf between the top 4 teams and the rest is massive. No other team has a chance of beating them at the moment. That's all we can say about form and performances.
Saying that, I'm 90% certain England are going to win the entire thing.
Because the Universe is just cruel like that.
Aye a cracking weekend of Rugby.
Yep, the uneven draw gave us 4 great quarter finals (probably at the expense of the semi finals, but you never know)
Well I was mainly taking about the earlier rounds where scores like 96-0 is not entertaining, especially for the occasional rugby watcher which some of my friends are. This weekend some of the games could have gone either way.
First half against Fiji looked decent, I had that nagging thought that England were undeservedly strengthening during the tournament...what if they built on that, could they give SA/France/NZ a game?
Second half sorted that train of thought out. SA vs France totally erased it.
The universe would have to be particularly sociopathic to allow England to progress further. Even the fans are pathetically scrapping in fancy dress in the stands. Embarrassing.
Saying that, I’m 90% certain England are going to win the entire thing.
Because the Universe is just cruel like that.
It won't happen, but the biggest pleasure would be the upset it will cause the tedious ABEers.
Who knows what's going to happen with knockout rugby. SA were not the best team in the 2019 tournament but won it. NZ had beaten SA in the group stages. France should have beaten Wales in the Quarters, Wales should have beaten SA in the Semi's, England stepped up and beat NZ in the Semi's, but objectively NZ were the better team.
England are not the best 6N team, but we're the one left in the competition. I've not got too much hope for the SA game, but we've been playing better rugby as the tournament has moved forward.
Belief in the team is always the mainstay of what is needed to win, and they will have a lot more now. Although they tailed off in the last 20 England turned over a lot of ball, disrupted a lot of set pieces and generally made a real nuisance of themselves against Fiji as a defence. If they can keep doing that against SA and now also find some attacking form, they have a chance, albeit a small one. It won't be pretty and it will feature drop goals to keep the score ticking over, but that's still a way better position than they were in 24 hours ago, so I will take that!
England always stand a punchers chance in knockout rugby as they have a very good pack of forwards. Scotland never win anything of note because theirs isn't very good.
Scotland never win anything of note because theirs isn’t very good.
Actually, Scotland never win anything because the domestic structure is a mess because of a lack on interest in growing the game beyond the private school network, managing to disengage the the only region of the country where rugby is actually popular, and generally focusing entirely on balancing the books using big games at Murrayfield rather than fostering the next generation of players or growing a week in week out fanbase at the clubs.
Our current high is coming to an end soon and will be unlikely to return until the stars align once again and a key combination of players happen to find themselves playing rugby at the same time.
Does all that make you feel a bit better about the shit situation Wales are in?
AA - so why is our recent record against England so good? Including ourplaying their pack 🙂
Does all that make you feel a bit better about the shit situation Wales are in?
Not really!!
so why is our recent record against England so good?
Better coaching, the fact that Scotland can't string together the wins when necessary is because the pack isn't able to dominate.
If it's any consolation the Welsh pack is shit and so are our backs 😀
Because you hate the English. And can get up for a game against 'The Auld Enemy' in a way that you can't seem to against the Welsh, or Irish, or......
Harsh to say the Scottish pack isn't very good. It's been really solid the last few years and has given the backs a good, front foot platform to play off. They aren't going to outmuscle teams, but they compete very well at the breakdown
And are quicker and more agile than many packs
Its just AA trolling again
And are quicker and more agile than many packs
And how has that helped you at the top level? The bottom line is unless you have a big strong pack you are not going to compete well at the top level. France, SA, Ireland and NZ all have packs that can dominate v the likes of Scotland. England's pack is able to compete because they do the basics well.
Is it trolling when it's true? Fast and agile doesn't cut it at the top. Scotland failed to fire a meaningful shot v Ireland and SA because your pack is not good enough. Not suggesting Wales are anywhere near the top but look what happened when we went into the quarter final with 2 7's in our back row... balance is key and if you cannot get balance just get a big **** off pack like England and stay in the fight.
Trolling again
its time to ignore this thread again as once more you wreck it with trolling
OK, the Scottish pack is a raging behemoth to which all other packs tremble in front of!
There nowt so daft as those that refuse to see.
England always stand a punchers chance in knockout rugby as they have a very good pack of forwards. Scotland never win anything of note because theirs isn’t very good.
For England, the forwards over the past 10 yeads have been good until they come up against a really good set of forwards in the other team, a la France or South Africa at present. Then they are outgunned up front? Yet don't have any flair or attacking finesse (especially with Farrell dragging them backwards at 10) to make up for it.
I think the idea you can break down rugby teams to two separate units and judge the merits of each team's backs and forwards against each other is a bit dated, tbh, and doesn't really take into account how modern teams operate.
Against the top 4 Scotland struggles from 1 to 15. Against the top 4 any team struggles from 1 to 15 at the moment.
I think you're deliberately oversimplifying to get a rise out of TJ, aa. Very naughty.
Against the top 4 Scotland struggles from 1 to 15. Against the top 4 any team struggles from 1 to 15 at the moment.
9-15 are good for Scotland and as individuals stand comparison with for example Ireland, as a group they function better than Ireland certainly in attack. If Scotland had Ireland's pack they would win far more games. It is maybe simplistic but at a basic level so is rugby.
Whoever you support, that was a cracking weekend of rugby.
I expected Ireland to win, new Zealand found something special, and for me are now the team to beat. Fiji were always going to struggle but played their socks off, England did well to hang on. France were just so fast and kept the ball moving at a pace that SA struggled to contain, again SA did well to hang on.
I'd really like to see something happen with the tier 2 and 3 sides so they can play some more rugby and improve. This will also help them to retain a few players who are eligible to move country too.
Can we not descend into the usual anyone but England shite
Don't forget that the majority of England supporters aren't the wax-jacketed, coloured trousered, braying public school ****'s we're portrayed as. We have to put up with them as well
Can we not descend into the usual anyone but England shite
Didn't think we had, I was just trying to explain why they often do well in big tournaments for example.
Whoever you support, that was a cracking weekend of rugby.
Respectively I will disagree 😄.
Had Wales not been in the 1/4's I would have agreed!
Didn’t think we had, I was just trying to explain why they often do well in big tournaments for example.
That wasn't aimed at you AA - you were just banging some nonsense about forwards around
That wasn’t aimed at you AA – you were just banging some nonsense about forwards around
Oh right so tell me again how the Scottish pack got on V Ireland and SA
Can I ABF(arrell) as opposed to ABE?
I quite like Farrell whenever I hear him talk, it's just when he plays.....
I feel that NZ did to Ire what Eng did to NZ last World Cup - find a weakness and exploit it. Maybe Ireland have been too good to ignore, so actually the NZ focus has been on peaking for exactly that game. They repeatedly kicked behind Irelands frontal defence and got rewards.
The reason England are still dangerous is because nobody has a clue what they could do, including England!
The reason England are still dangerous is because nobody has a clue what they could do, including England!
That is so true!
I hope I am wrong but I have a feeling that a card is never far away for England at the moment, anything from Farrells well documented tacking issues, Itoje has been very close to the line multiple times for ruck infringements, Tom Curry for his no arm tackle and many, many more.
Curry feels more of a liability than a benefit at the moment.
Curry feels more of a liability than a benefit at the moment.
+1 and Itoje's constant buggering about at lineouts was surprisingly leaniently allowed.
Curry feels more of a liability than a benefit at the moment.
I just checked the stats and he made 20 tackles against Fiji which is a mighty effort, however he didn't make a single carry in offence, and conceded two penalties
nobody has a clue what they could do, including England!
Borthwicks Secret Strategy, you saw it here first...
Still feel slightly sick about the Ireland V NZ game but this Irish team have given me a fair amount of joy over the last world cup cycle. For someone who has been watching Ireland games for over 40 years the idea we would even be slight favourites against NZ when we had never even won a game against them in over 100 years. People can say we choked and I suspect we did in the first 15 mins allowing them a lead which we never overhauled. Going forward we will be fine, 2 consecutive Grand Slams at U20 mean we have some good players coming through. Eventually we will get a kinder draw and win a quarter final.
As for semi, I hope England win, I'd be surprised if they do but maybe SA will struggle to get back to this level again for an opponent they expect to beat!
Still feel slightly sick about the Ireland V NZ game but
Understandable, I have never seen Wales beat NZ and likely never will. So whilst it must be a real gut punch there's masses to be proud of from that team
I'm an unashamed Tom Curry fanboi, ever since his first season as a teenager at Sale. Him and his brother have both been amazing every time that I've seen them at Sale. Currently, he looks a bit out of form, and like another sending off waiting to happen.
Not so sure that I share the optimism over England's pack! 2019 final v SA our pack was distinctly second best, and I'd argue that it was better (certainly in better form) than the current one.
Plus one to not enjoying the public school lot. Although aren't Ireland just as public school centred (well you know, the ones that actually grew up in Ireland 😜)
Although aren’t Ireland just as public school centred
I believe so yes, and Scotland tbh. Welsh are salt of the earth chav scumbags though 😀
Borthwicks Secret Strategy, you saw it here first…
You saw it first in his first season at Tigers, and the last (half) season actually, they were bloody awful!!....
On the Scotland public school dependence, I still reckon we lost some of our traditional forward ‘grit’ when the Borders teams fell into decline - we don’t seem to get many farm boy flankers in the John Jeffrey style any more.
Yeah plenty of the Irish team come from schools that charge fees, very different fee levels to the English Private School system - St Michaels in Dublin who usually have 3 or 4 in the squad charge around 6,200 euros per year. I think most of the Ulster players come from the Grammar school system, Munster players come from a couple of Cork schools that charge around 4K per year or club system around Limerick.
I believe so yes, and Scotland tbh.
My understanding, at least as far as Ireland go, is that it's a conveyer belt where the private schools in Dublin are an integrated part of the Leinster machine and they are essentially rugby academies designed to feed the regions (but mostly Leinster). I could be wrong about that though.
In Scotland, on the other hand, certain private schools poach promising players from Glasgow and Dundee clubs so that they can keep the old boys network happy and impress prospective parents. It also helps them with their charitable status by giving out 'scholarships' without having to fill the classrooms with unprofitable working class kids who happen to be a bit clever.
Strathallan School is probably the best example of this type of 'recruitment'.
So it's the same idea but implemented in a very different way and with very different outcomes.
I believe so yes, and Scotland tbh. Welsh are salt of the earth chav scumbags though
Will Rowlands is a right chav.
Private schools in Ireland are cheaper because the state subsidies them.
Private schools in Ireland are cheaper because the state subsidies them.
I think they're still able to get exemptions on some tax in Scotland.
I can only say "Down! With this sort of thing
No, a real subsidy, the state pays the teachers' salaries.
That's the fun thing about Wales rugby. You probably know someone who went to school with a top player, or if not you know someone who does. Jamie Roberts went to the same primary school as my kids.
Try living in Hawick. Can't move for capped players.
No, a real subsidy, the state pays the teachers’ salaries.
Don't get me started on this, I find it hilarious that people in UK moan (rightly) about school fees being VAT exempt and Irish people accept this massive subsidy to the private sector every year. Add in the tax exemption for your earnings from sport and most Irish rugby players have had a fair old subsidy over their education and careers.
Particularly irks me that state schools cant claim charitable status and therefore cant get tax exemptions
I went to school with Richard Hill. Alas he was slightly better at Rugby than I was!
""I’d really like to see something happen with the tier 2 and 3 sides so they can play some more rugby""
They should have shields and plates finals like they have at youth/touch rugby tournaments.
With real consequences for ranking/funding ??
There's a lot of chat about the incredible Irish "conveyer belt" of talent. Why then is fully half their starting back line, well, not Irish?
This is purely mischievous by the way. I am mostly Scottish and therefore have little leg to stand on on this one. The other part of me holds an Irish passport! I thought Ireland were incredible at the WC and was disappointed at their loss to NZ. Is it acceptable to support 14 of the Irish team and still be happy to see Jonny Sexton get pumped?
... Would Scotland and Australia )this tournament) really want to play 3 more games to play for a lower value trophy
Would Scotland and Australia )this tournament) really want to play 3 more games to play for a lower value trophy
Possibly. Look at football. Champions League, Europa and now third tier Conference. People might scoff at the Conference, but tell that to West Ham who won their first trophy in however long.
Not all in the same tournament though. Another three weeks away from home with the injury attrition of tournament rugby. Not saying it's a bad idea it's all just not all up side
Is it acceptable to support 14 of the Irish team and still be happy to see Jonny Sexton get pumped?
Yes. He's an exceptionally talented player, but also a stroppy tool
I believe so yes, and Scotland tbh. Welsh are salt of the earth chav scumbags though
More of a nuance to it than that, over the years I have lost numerous good players to fee paying schools who offer them scholarships aged 16. The most recent to the school Brucewee mentions, I refereed their Scottish cup Semi about 10-12 years ago and they were mostly NZ'ers bigger than me with a Saffer director of rugby.
Possibly. Look at football. Champions League, Europa and now third tier Conference. People might scoff at the Conference, but tell that to West Ham who won their first trophy in however long.
Players might be interested vaguely in a third tier bauble, part of being a top level sportsman is you'll race your mates for anything. But for the clubs putting their assets through the wringer - where's the payback? It's probably tolerable for a world cup based on the prestige that tournament still has, but to lose players playing for the 3rd place in the plate, not so much.
I have lost numerous good players to fee paying schools who offer them scholarships aged 16.
Yep, that's how Wales lost the clearly Welsh Vunipola brothers