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The Russell knock on, from the video, the view from behind Dillon Lewis there was a massive gap between the two remaining Scotland defenders. If Russell's knock on was deliberate, then his ations are completely removed from the equation, the pass to Lewis and then the run in were, to some eyes, a try.
Like I said, I've seen some given, some not.
Remember Loopy Liam's attempt to decapitate the SA? player some years ago? Same situation.
Remember Loopy Liam’s attempt to decapitate the SA?
That doesn't narrow it down much 😄😄😄
if I could be bothered I’d go back and quote a few of your posts that are certainly very different from, could go either way!!
And if you could be bothered you would see you are wrong and being an arse. do me a favour
Yup, it does at times appear that you are not allowed to have a different opinion than someone else. It does seem that a lot of the bickering on this particular thread is by two people, over matters that are subjective that even experts in studios who played the game at a far higher standard than most on here can't agree on, so we've no hope.
I love my rugby, love this thread but despair when it gets into the bickering level.
And like the post said I would actually quite like to meet the protagonists in person at a game one day, just to see if the theory stands up!
And if you could be bothered you would see you are wrong and being an arse. do me a favour
You spent an age telling me that an attempt to wrap was mitigation for a high tackle it clearly is not the guidance was clear and you couldn't/wouldn't or refused to look at it, even Duckman suggested you give it a rest but but you did not. A few days later the citing panel showed that you were wrong and then you refused to comment....yet I'm an arse? Fair play that not how it feels to me.
I would actually quite like to meet the protagonists in person at a game one day
I had a beer with Krypton once, he seemed fairly normal, not sure what he made of me 🤪
he seemed fairly normal
I hid that well, phew.
not sure what he made of me
A younger Eddie Hitler 😉
Kryton I am trying!
AA I was trying to explain the laws to you as you appeared confused. However given your antagonistic tone I will be ignoring you from here on. Quite frankly you make this thread unpleasant. I am trying to not be a part of stinking it up
AA I was trying to explain the laws to you as you appeared confused.
You need to check in with the citing panel then, not me. You really do never listen despite over whelming evidence.
https://images.app.goo.gl/9a1PTs7N2DFsr6gc9
AA - you have missed the basic point I was making - thats all. citing panel is quite correct - I never said otherwise. At the heart of it is a subjective decision - thats my point and because of that subjective decision either a yellow or red may be appropriate. ]
You have been really antagonistic leaping straight into the attack without realising you have misunderstood and refusing to listen
Please stop stinking up the thread
Please stop stinking up the thread
Pot? Kettle?
You spent a page droning on that a wrap is mitigation for a high tackle, I tried to explain at length with links to the guidance why it wasn't, this is not subjective, you are wrong. You were antagonistic as well as trying to take the piss, leading to another poster saying "why don't you go round his house and shag his dog too" or similar. Then a few days later when the citing panel show you were wrong you lack the minerals to even respond.
Instead of just bleeding you have misunderstood try explaining what I have misunderstood because I can't see it. A wrap/attempted determines which pathway shoulder charge or high tackle and it's not mitigation for a high tackle.
OK, I want to pointlessly bicker about something different now.
Russell's yellow wasn't a yellow and wasn't even a penalty*.
If you look at the video you can see that the ball travels up and only goes forwards about 2 metres. After he touches the ball he gets full on body checked by Dillon Lewis and effectively comes to a halt. He starts moving forward again but by this point the ball is almost on the ground and too far away to catch.
If he hadn't got tangled up with Lewis (who you can also see pulling his arm back) I'm almost certain he would have caught the ball.
Discuss.
*It probably worked out in the end though since Hogg should have been given a yellow for his 'knock on' earlier in the match.
Discuss
Don't agree, his chances of catching the ball were minimal, wasn't a pen try though. Hogg was lucky too, as said earlier it's hard to reconcile Hoggs being a knock on and Russell's being a yellow
I don't know.
For the defence: It's perfectly possible to catch a rugby ball one handed, and if he hadn't been bumped may well have been able to pull it back in to the other hand or body.
For the prosecution: it's become a 'thing' that simply going for the ball one handed is considered risky and failing to catch it results in it being considered deliberate. So don't do it unless you're confident / willing to accept the sanction otherwise. It's about decision making at that moment.
The issue is consistency and judging intent is hard in all sports. If you want consistency you need to make it explicit, eg: going for a one handed interception and failing will be considered a deliberate knock on. Then at least you know.
his chances of catching the ball were minimal,
I don't know if minimal but as above, certainly risky - but that's not the same as 'he deliberately knocked it on'. Players try things that have low or minimal risk of success regularly.
his chances of catching the ball were minimal
If you take into account he had to run through Dillon then I'd agree. However, if Dillon hadn't been there I reckon he would have recovered it fairly easily. Look at how much speed he losses in the collision and how far ahead of him the ball actually landed.
However, if Dillon hadn’t been there
and if my aunty had balls.......
It was clear cut given the way the game has been reffed in recent times that it was an intentional knock on, so close to the line it was a clear yellow, but given other players around it was not a clear prevention of a try so not a pen try
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A player must not intentionally knock the ball forward with hand or arm. Sanction: Penalty.
It is not an intentional knock-on if, in the act of trying to catch the ball, the player knocks on provided that there was a reasonable expectation that the player could gain possession.
https://www.laws.worldrugby.org/?law=11&language=EN
- what is a 'reasonable' expectation? 50/50? 1/10?
(I get it, the way it's reffed now it's almost certain to be interpreted as deliberate whether it was or not so don't do it unless you have a high chance of success. So by that, reasonable is now being interpreted as 'high or very high chance')
and if my aunty had balls…….
I don't think you can use that as an argument in this kind of situation. These decisions are all based on woulda, shoulda, coulda...
I think you have to take into account what opposition players are doing and in Dillon's case he pulled Russell's hand back so there was no chance of catching the ball. If Russell hadn't been impeded he probably would have caught the ball so there's I don't see how that can be called an intentional knock on.
Dillon’s case he pulled Russell’s hand back so there was no chance of catching the ball. If Russell hadn’t been impeded he probably would have caught the ball so there’s I don’t see how that can be called an intentional knock on.
If a player makes contact with the ball he is fair game to be tackled so Dillon impeded no one.
So he lost the ball/ knocked forward in the tackle then? Scrum and no further sanction?
So he lost the ball/ knocked forward in the tackle then? Scrum and no further sanction?
You are welcome to think that if you wish
I'm trying to understand why you think it was a deliberate knock on, when the facts looked at as a whole seem to suggest otherwise?
You say his chances were minimal, but also clearly that he was fair game to be tackled, which indicates possession? Or, if he wasn't in possession, then the body check was illegal, and as Brucewee said, it was only a couple of yards away from him even after the body check, and it was that interaction which is what made his chances minimal. Without the interaction which you say was legitimate, the chances were (to use the laws word) 'reasonable'.
Damned if he did, damned if he didn't?
I do see why the penalty was given, as that's the way the interpretation is going but as soon as it's interpretation then it also becomes contentious. Make the law explicit, a failed one handed interception will be considered a deliberate knock on.
Scotland didn't play well, but if they'd had 15 men on the pitch they would IMHO have won that game, so it was a huge call in context.
Rewatching it Lewis over runs the pass, he was never going to catch it and score.
But that doesn’t take away Russell’s one handed catch in the middle of contact. It’s not just Lewis pulling his arm back that stops Russell catching it. Giving Russell every benefit of the doubt, it looks like a knock the ball up in the air moment that he may have caught. That’s being generous. His hand goes straight out. That close to the try line it starts to look intentional at best, deliberate and cynical at the other end of the spectrum.
Compared to Tomkins last year, his was a very obvious backsweeping motion and the ball went straight up then down, but not forwards or backwards.
Different perceived actions that lead to to very different outcomes.
if he knocks up and forward and then regathers, that's OK isn't it, as long as it doesn't touch the ground or anyone else?
Can it be a deliberate knock forward, but with the intent to catch it again? Like bat it 15 feet into the air and buy time, a bit like cricket 'relay catching' (but to yourself)
You can certainly knock the ball into the air and regather, no knock on. See Josh Adams try vs England. Taps it in the air whilst also being in the air, regather, scores. Applauded by everyone as a great piece of skill.
Intentionally knocking the ball forward in defence and regathering would be then down to how likely you were to succeed. I know it sounds like a contradiction, and it is.
It’s about the intended outcome. If a player genuinely try’s to intercept the ball then the body positioning, the motion of their arms / hand, whether they were in a realistic position to regather all comes into play and will affect the referee’s decision making.
It’s a similar process when a player is tackled whilst in the action of catching and juggling the ball. You could interpret it as being tackled without the ball, or you could view it as the player was in possession. There were a few of those over the weekend as well. The tackle prevented the player catching the ball cleanly.
Can it be a deliberate knock forward, but with the intent to catch it again? Like bat it 15 feet into the air and buy time, a bit like cricket ‘relay catching’ (but to yourself)
You would have to be really fed up of having ribs to do that. All you would be doing is letting somebody set you up in a more leisurely fashion.
I’m trying to understand why you think it was a deliberate knock on, when the facts looked at as a whole seem to suggest otherwise?
It looks totally and utterly like a deliberate knock on to me. I'm unclear what 'facts' you mean? Unfortunately, I've only managed to see slightly poor video replays, so cannot say 100% it was deliberate knock-on, but I'd be amazed if it wasn't. I guess at the end of the day, it's what the ref at the time thinks - Hogg's looked just as deliberate to me.
A one- handed interception, although admittedly he wasn't at full stretch ; )
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dnNPWBuigz8
For fairness and he runs almost the whole length of the field - but he's likely a tad faster than Russell 😉
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-eNokIEJjI4
You would have to be really fed up of having ribs to do that. All you would be doing is letting somebody set you up in a more leisurely fashion.
You've broken the line at that point......into open field, why's it different to a chip kick over (except it can't bounce)?
I’m unclear what ‘facts’ you mean?
That he was baulked by Lewis and was only a couple of yards short of regathering
The 'facts' don't prove he'd have caught it, but I contend they suggest he had a reasonable chance without the obstruction. Which is what the laws say as the threshold for deliberate or accidental.
https://twitter.com/BBCSport/status/1492530083973709827?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
He's not even at full stretch, having admittedly started to retract because of the impeding collision. At the point he went for it, I think he had a real chance of reaching, until the impending collision changed the dynamic.
Look - in a game of fine margins and decision making, it's easy and probably correct to say that with the way it's being reffed nowadays the decision to go for it was wrong, but it could have won the game for them, on a high benefit / high risk tariff.
Whilst I think it is interesting to discuss the reffing to understand it, we all have to accept that its bloody difficult to be consistent on the spot and, even with TMO, the refs decision is final. If you regularly lose because of percieved poor reffing then you need to either change the way you play so you are penalised less, learn to communicate with the ref better to point out the oppositions naughtiness, and learn to play better so you have bigger margins.
its bloody difficult to be consisiten on the spot
Agreed - I used to referee (albeit football) and the balance between consistency and discretion is a very tough line. The only way in my opinion then is to be totally prescriptive in how laws are applied, eg: as I said before, a failed one handed attempt is automatically considered a deliberate knock on. Then we wouldn't be discussing it now.
I agree with most of that.
However, I do think Nic Berry is a shit ref. Twice in the last two weeks I've seen him wave off dangerous play involving head contact which is his biggest issue.
Apart from that I thought he was spectacularly inconsistent in how he was reffing almost every aspect of the game.
I think the result of that game was the correct one though. Hogg and Russell were in their own heads too much and I think we really missed Ritchie.
I am quite hopeful for the France game though. Should be a good match either way.
I am quite hopeful for the France game though. Should be a good match either way.
It is nice to not have any pressure on us to win.
It is nice to not have any pressure on us to win.
It certainly seems to be an issue with the Scotland team, despite getting a good start v Wales the team just didn't turn up. Dugan Van Der merwe was awful, Hogg and Russell average at best and your front five was mince. I agree with whoever said you missed Richie and the 8 going off early but the only Scot who I thought played well was Graham.
Looks like Wales might have to handle Tuilagi at Twickenham which is a shame because when not injured he's a top top player, Lawes back as well to make whichever midget we pick at 6 look even smaller!!
It is nice to not have any pressure on us to win.
I don't understand, the competition is wide open. You could still win.
I don’t understand, the competition is wide open. You could still win.
Haven’t you watched France play?
Looks like Wales might have to handle Tuilagi at Twickenham which is a shame because when not injured he’s a top top player
Hmm, as much as I'd like us to beat Wales I'm not sure if its better to save Tuilagi's one appearance for the Ireland game.
Haven’t you watched France play?
I have, but France were that good before Scotland played and beat England, when poeple were saying Scotland for the GS, 6N etc. Why is it any different now? No GS but its the same team, you could still win. Teams have bad days. 6N does funny things. SOme peopel think England will beat Wales, yet Wales beat you and you beat us.
I can't see why the pressure is off.
Hmm, as much as I’d like us to beat Wales I’m not sure if its better to save Tuilagi’s one appearance for the Ireland game.
Agreed.
Nah I can't say I've ever seen Scotland beating that french side. And they have a worrying good strength in depth/youth.
Suzz is out and the saffer props aren't dynamic enough around the pitch and will bounce off the big french boys. DvdM will be turned inside out.
At what point does the rest of his life become more important? He plays like he is clever; I would be amazed if there wasn't a role for him in the WRU. He will be insured to the gunnels as well with it being with the Lions. I had the misfortune to play against Sarries amateurs featuring Richard Hill when he was making one of his many comebacks from his knee injuries. He is not yet 50 and has had a knee replacement.
England beat Scotland 64-0 yesterday.
https://twitter.com/GeentyJohn/status/1495061951549952002?
At what point does the rest of his life become more important?
Indeed and it's not like he could achieve anything more seeing as he plays for ospreys and Wales.
Not entirely sure what law this is breaking but there must be something as the Edinburgh players cannot touch either the ball carrier or the bloke carrying him.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1494803177144737793
Probably to do with dangerous play. Can’t interfere with a player in the air or supporting player, same as in the line out? Maybe?
Penalty Edinburgh. For obstruction. Prevents fair access by the tackler in open play.
(Totally making it up but would be appropriate)
Can't tackle because in the air, can't bind to form a maul as not on his feet.
I think we should run a poll on which day this week Tuilagi injures himself at training. I'm going for Wednesday, for maximum impact.
The only player fit to replace Christ in the Wales squad!!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/60455167
The mighty Jevan Sebastian is out for Scotland v France
George Kruis to retire at end of season in Japan and commit to business. No RWC return 😞
So LRZ has been dropped for the England game. Some chatter citing poor form, shame, I thought he was just a victim of the type of game Wales had to play rather than being crap.
So LRZ has been dropped for the England game. Some chatter citing poor form, shame, I thought he was just a victim of the type of game Wales had to play rather than being crap.
He hasn't had a decent pass so far really, I doubt playing v England at Twickenham will see that improve.
Pivac will pick Calamity Cuthbert isn’t he?
The man with the impeccable ability under the high ball, the tactical kicking of a bucking bronco, and the turning circle of an oil tanker?
🙈
Whilst I agree with you Cuthbert does provide some much needed go forward in a Wales team lacking any carriers. I can see the reasoning. LRZ looks like he's carrying that ankle injury too.
I did see something about an ankle injury despite denials that he is injured.
I am sure Wales will find a way to make us look shyte.
England to face Wales:
15. Freddie Steward
14. Max Malins
13. Henry Slade
12. Manu Tuilagi
11. Jack Nowell
10. Marcus Smith
9. Harry Randall
1. Ellis Genge
2. Luke Cowan-Dickie
3. Kyle Sinckler
4. Charlie Ewels
5. Maro Itoje
6. Courtney Lawes (c)
7. Tom Curry
8. Alex Dombrandt
Finishers
16. Jamie George
17. Joe Marler
18. Will Stuart
19. Nick Isiekwe
20. Sam Simmonds
21. Ben Youngs
22. George Ford
23. Elliot Daly
This seems to have all the right people in the right place and looks a pretty robust team. I'm glad Nowell is on, and Daly & Youngs are benched. #prayforwales. 😉
Hmmm. I still feel like Wales will find a way.
RIP Inga the Winger.
https://www.ruck.co.uk/newcastle-falcons-legend-inga-tuigamala-passes-away-aged-52/
I'm bored waiting for AA to post this so I present you with the Welsh squad. Some talent in there. Strong front row, Rowland has been excellent about the field as has Basham. Probs the best side Pivac could field considering how many are unvailable.
It won't be easy traffic for Manu with Tomkins and Watkin to contend with. Gonna be a good game.
15. Liam Williams,
14. Alex Cuthbert,
13. Owen Watkin,
12. Nick Tompkins,
11. Josh Adams,
10. Dan Biggar (capt),
9. Tomos Williams,
1. Wyn Jones,
2. Ryan Elias,
3. Tomas Francis,
4. Will Rowlands,
5. Adam Beard,
6. Ross Moriarty,
7. Taine Basham,
8. Taulupe Faletau.
Replacements: 16. Dewi Lake, 17. Gareth Thomas, 18. Leon Brown, 19. Seb Davies, 20. Jac Morgan, 21. Kieran Hardy, 22. Gareth Anscombe, 23. Jonathan Davies.
Tompkins v Manu is a real worry...still let's hope to see a good game. Can't see using winning though
I remember south of Scotland Vs NZ in 1993. A lot of backs that had run out with sooth training were glad they were sat on the bench when Inga the winga stepped out.
We got pumped. Basil (Brian redpath) spoke at the dinner. Pointed to the badge the said south of Scotland Vs new Zealand 1993 and said "they almost got the score right"
(5-84 was the score).
Hmmm. I still feel like Wales will find a way.
Its not a match I would like to bet on. I do think Wales with suffocate the English attack. they are better at that than Scotland and Scotland made defending against England look fiarly strightforward
Wales also read Scotlands attack well. I cannot see them being any less prepared for this game
Prediction - tight game with Wales to win. Experience to count
Scotland / France? the french are looking ominous but we have good record against them However if France have a good day they could run away with it and I am concerned about some of the injuries we have. Digging a bit deep in a few positions
France by 15
Scotland v France: Scotland have home advantage, they have a very good organised defense and the ability to score against anyone. They have to put in a huge performance to recover some pride, following their loss in Wales. France however have huge class throughout their team and for me are favourites to win. Scotland can win this game, I'd say they've a ~40% chance, every fan from Scotland, Ireland, England and Wales will be cheering them on - if Scotland win the tournament becomes extremely exciting!
England v Wales: the England team looks strong and I'd be quite excited if I was a fan of theirs. With home advantage too, I feel they are clear favourites - a Wales win would be a huge upset. I'd give Wales a ~12% chance.
Manu Tuilagi out: Wales up to 17% chance?
5plusn8
Free MemberI think we should run a poll on which day this week Tuilagi injures himself at training. I’m going for Wednesday, for maximum impact.
So close!
Oops! Poor chap
Who had Thursday night in the sweep?
Manu out injured
Poor bloke, he really does have no luck.
I fricken knew it.
Even less confident now.
Too slow
I really like watching France play. They play with a style and flair that I currently wish Wales were capable of. However, today I shall be firmly behind Scotland.
Scotland may not be favourites, but they can win. They need a big performance from everyone, should they go down lightly today then I fear they will struggle to regain any confidence before the World Cup.
I still feel that France may be slightly vulnerable under the high ball (this might be nonsense) - Hogg and Russell will need to do some magic.
Watson out now for Scotland with Covid. Too many 2nd and 3rd choice forwards I fear for Scotland. Possible especially given our recent record against France. Its one of the fascinating things to me - Scotlands bogey teams are Wales and Ireland but we are the bogey team for France and England having beaten them a good few times in recent years
AA - How do you feel about LRZ being dropped? he did get a bit of a schooling last week from the wee man ( be still my beating heart) 🙂
I'm predicting France and England for the wins - but genuinely any of the sides today can win. 6 nations is properly competitive this year
I hope we’re in for an afternoon of exciting rugby, interspersed with hiding behind the sofa.
Scotland have taken a beating with injuries, whole first choice back row out, Giraffe Grey out. Is confidence low after Wales? Or are we going to see some Russell / Hogg magic to upset the French?
France look like they’re building to something special. I love watching them play when things click, it’s like watching ghosts floating through gaps with lovely hands and support play.
If Wales can smother the England attack and they stop within a score it could go either way.
England need to find a way through the blanket defence and nullify Biggar’s tactical kicking.
England need to find a way through the blanket defence
I think that will be a real issue. Scotland couldn't do it with pretty much our first choice attack and guys in form
Scotland / France could be a good game for the neutral. Me I will be behind the sofa as usual
#PrayForTJ and #PrayForTJ’sSofa
🙂