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yes -in the wider squad
Elliot Dee red card, quite right.
4.28 in.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0JYBjY2eIs8
Dan Cherry, play on (well after a 15 min break to clear the mess that was James Botham off the pitch), nothing NADA.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1479853386463944708
Rugby has to do better.
The Gilroy tackle on Rogers where he got a yellow card last night was a shocker too.
The gilroy one is a yellow as attempt to wrap and Gilroy is going down hence mitigation. could be yellow could be red - the ref has to make a subjective assessment. there is a framework to work in but it still subjective
the clip of the Botham one is too poor to really see. but looks like it should have been at least Yellow. Looks like an attempt to wrap ie not leading with the shoulder but hard to tell
commentators on the Elliot Dee one are absurd - not understanding the laws. Thats a bang to rights red as no attempt to wrap
No attempt to wrap then its foul play and you cannot give any mitigation. If its an attempt with a legal challenge ie a wrap of the arms and hits the head then mitigation can be applied so if other circumstance mean the tackled player is going down its a yellow not red. so with Gilroy he is going down already due to the actions of the player behind him and an attempt to wrap so yellow
. the clip of the Botham one is too poor to really see. but looks like it should have been at least Yellow. Looks like an attempt to wrap ie not leading with the shoulder but hard to tell
Not really, he runs in and head butts him, I was flabbergasted the video ref didn't even get the red to look at, especially as they had 15mibs doing nothing whilst Botham was swept up. What you do with your arms is irrelevant if you headbutt someone
Gilroy is going down hence mitigati
That's what happens when people are being tackled, the mitigation is if the player dips or unexpectedly drops, he was being tackled by someone else so it is not unexpected
commentators on the Elliot Dee one are absurd –
Didn't listen tbh. It's a spot on red, even Dee said so, but then so was the cherry one.
but then so was the cherry one, doesn’t matter if you try and wrap if you headbutt someone, what you arms are doing is irrelevant.
correct but I cannot see from the clip
That’s what happens when people are being tackled, the mitigation is if the player dips or unexpectedly drops, he was being tackled by someone else so it is not unexpected
Mitigation can also be applied in that situation - heard it done many times. Its an unexpected dip in height - doesn't matter why. Thats the framework and i would bet thts what the ref team worked thru. they all use the same framework
Was there head contact yes / no. Was it with force yes / no Was it an attempt at a legal tackle yes /no Is there mitigation yes/ no
Head contact means its looked at, with force means a red card is the starting point. If its not an attempt at a legal tackle then no mitigation so it remains red card If its an attempt at a legal tackle then is there mitigation yes / no Was the tackler tackling at an appropriate height yes / no, did the tackled player dip at the last moment yes / no
that the framework for decision making and every incident where they look head contact they work thru it to reach a decision
The Gilroy one could easily have been given as red. to me right on the margin
I think the answer is to reduce the tackle height so its below the armpits or mid chest. Under that doctrine the gilroy one would be red card, IIRC this has been trialed this removes the doubt in the tackle that "slips up" and stops the upright tackles completely.
I think the answer is to reduce the tackle height so its below the armpits or mid chest. Under that doctrine the gilroy one would be red card, IIRC this has been trialed this removes the doubt in the tackle that “slips up” and stops the upright tackles completely.
Non of which applies to the Gilroy one, he hit a player plum in the head as that player was being tackled, he didn't slip up and Rogers didn't dip unexpectedly. It was a clear reckless tackle, no doubt accidental but still reckless, with force, direct to head. Mitigation does not apply to highly reckless acts.
Dee's tweet
Sorry to the @BenettonRugby player who’s head I made contact with at the end, was not my intention, I was just looking to clear out, glad your okay!, I owe you a beer 🍺 Spot on call from the ref, I take full responsibility and should of been more accurate!
I think red card for Cherry as well. Yes the player is dipping but there is no arm wrap, Cherry is doing what he has been coached to do,aim for the jackals arms if he is lifting it to prevent the steal. Catches him while he is still dipping and clunk!
Welsh one was just so dumb, is there only limited hot water in the Rodney Parade showers or something? Initial home commentary was comedy gold as well!
AA - thats not how the process / framework works. The question is was it an attempt at a legal tackle? If no its red if yes is there mitigation. It does not matter why the player is going downwards
I tend to agree with Duckman tho that it was never a legal tackle but if the ref saw an attempt to wrap then mitigation applies. Yo may not agree with the framework but thats what it is
good tweet from Dee and he is right - thats a bang to rights red as no attempt at a legal tackle.
This is why I think the way forward is to lower the tackle height to below armpits
I'm looking forward to Edinburgh stuffing the Ospreys this afternoon and cementing their rightful place at the top of the table 🙂
Actually its a weakened Edinburgh team stripped of most of the internationals especially forwards. Dunno what the Ospreys team is like
AA – thats not how the process / framework works. The question is was it an attempt at a legal tackle? If no its red if yes is there mitigation. It does not matter why the player is going downwards
That's not what it says here, also
No mitigation for highly reckless acts
https://www.world.rugby/the-game/laws/guidelines/17
The Head Contact Process is a Law Application Guideline. Under 9.11, the referee is always entitled to issue a red or yellow card for anything deemed to be reckless or dangerous. However, this process is intended to aid consistency in the application of sanctions by providing guidance on how contact with the head should be approached by match officials and disciplinary personnel.
LAW 9: Foul play
11. Players must not do anything that is reckless or dangerous to others including leading with the elbow or forearm.
13. A player must not tackle an opponent early, late or dangerously. Dangerous tackling includes, but is not limited to, tackling or attempting to tackle an opponent above the line of the shoulders even if the tackle starts below the line of the shoulders.
20. Dangerous play in a ruck or maul.
a. A player must not charge into a ruck or maul. Charging includes any contact made without binding onto another player in the ruck or maul.
b. A player must not make contact with an opponent above the line of the shoulders.
This includes head-on-head
Process questions and considerations
1. Has head contact occurred?
Head contact includes neck and throat area
2. Was there foul play?
Considerations:
Intentional
Reckless
Avoidable
3. What was the degree of danger?
Considerations include:
Direct vs indirect contact
High force vs low force
4. Is there any mitigation?
Considerations include:
Line of sight
Sudden and significant drop or movement
Clear attempt to change height
Level of control
Upright - passive vs dynamic
Mitigation
Sudden / significant drop in height or change in direction from ball carrier
A late change in dynamics due to another player in the contact
An effort to wrap / bind and having no time to adjust
Yes AA - that is correct. Reckless is a subjective judgement. In the refs eyes it was an attempt at a legal tackle ie id did not start high and there was an attempt to wrap
Dangerous tackling includes, but is not limited to, tackling or attempting to tackle an opponent above the line of the shoulders even if the tackle starts below the line of the shoulders.
Note this
A late change in dynamics due to another player in the contact
So on the mitigation your earlier statement was wrong
So the yellow card is correct if the judgement is as I assume in this case that it was an attempt at a legal tackle which IMO it was and the refs in which case mitigation is applied
Process followed and correct outcome
Its not a shoulder charge or a tackle that starts high. Head contact occurred with force, as it was an attempt at a legal tackle them mitigation applies
Now that is a subjective judgement - watch the clip again and see how much the player dips in the last few feet. If he hadn't dipped then the tackle would not have been high
Why do you think it a reckless tackle? He does not start high and he attempts a wrap?
A t-rex would have attempted a better wrap than that TJ.😄
AA was saying it was always high - the arm was not tucked so attempted wrap- IMo could be given either way yellow or red with no complaints
Are you watching the glasgow game - a head on head given as an accident ply on when the clearing out player comes in upright and hits him straight on should have been red - or am I being as one eyed as AA? 🙂
Unless the Glasgow game is in council telly, I can't see it. I just think Cherry's is a clear red as well. He hasn't for me tried to wrap and has also hit his head. Only mitigation is the height of the player he dings but it was never at any time a legal clear out from Cherry which trumps the dropping player. I wonder if he will be cited for it? Seems a lottery. About to watch the mighty glazzer go marching on, yarp!
I have a vipbox to all the games 😉 a bit of a pirate
The cherry one I can't see well enough to have an opinion
Why do you think it a reckless tackle?
Because he smacks him firesquare in the face with his shoulder. The fact he is coming down is obvious as that's what happens to players being tackled. If you can't see its reckless then there really is no hope. The only question is was it reckless, mitigation allowed or highly reckless, no mitigation.
Note this
A late change in dynamics due to another player in the contact
It's not a late change, it's an inevitable consequence of the tackle that is in action before Gilroy attempts the tackle
Any question of acwrap is also inconsequential as we are not talking a no arms tackle, its a high tackle which given the player was dropping was highly reckless imo, just reckless in the opinion of the ref. The laws are there to protect players in this case as with the Cherry case the refs have failed them imo. Got it bang on with Dee though. The red also got it wrong with Cuthbert recently as the ref gave yellow but he was cited and rightly banned, the conclusion to that is that the ref got it wrong, they need to be stronger or it's not too far to suggest the game will collapse.
In the refs eyes it was an attempt at a legal tackle
It's written up there.
Q1 was head contact made?
Q2 was there foul play?
Q3 extent of danger?
Q4 mitigatio, if not excessively reckless
No talk of did he try a fair tackle or wrap
Cherry which trumps the dropping player. I wonder if he will be cited for it?
Time has been and gone, no citing. Disgrace imo, the game needs to do better. I don't think the hieght should mitigate either as Botham did not move, he was in place well before Cherry arrived. He should have coped a ban imo.
Marker should have been at least yellow carded for the snack in the chops on the Cardiff hooker too that week. Even Marker looked surprised he wasn't after apologising to the player and everyone else.
Anybody want a ticket for the Calcutta Cup?
I have one but can't make it.
Drop me a PM.
Bloody hell, Ospreys beat Edinburgh 😄😄😄😄
No talk of did he try a fair tackle or wrap
Thats how you judge if its an attempt at a tackle
From the framework!
An effort to wrap / bind and having no time to adjust
jeepers AA - its a process that has been followed for years
you can argue it was not an attempt at a fair tackle but you cannot argue any head contact is foul play Otherwise every time somones head is touched its an automatic red card
You apply mitigation if its an attempt at a fair tackle.
I don’t think the hieght should mitigate either as Botham did not move,
Correct - again its in the framework. Its a dip or drop that mitigate not how low you are to start with
You have already contradicted yourself on this You said
That’s what happens when people are being tackled, the mitigation is if the player dips or unexpectedly drops, he was being tackled by someone else so it is not unexpected
the framework says
Mitigation
Sudden / significant drop in height or change in direction from ball carrier
A late change in dynamics due to another player in the contact
Good win for the ospreys. I hate playing league games during the international window - Edinburgh lost their entire first team pack and more. Just about held parity up front until the subs came on but when your forward subs are 3rd and 4th choices its always going to be hard
how badly effected was the Ospreys team - I just do not know but that was a barely recognisable Edinburgh team
Still - Edinburgh playing much better this year than last
jeepers AA – its a process that has been followed for years
The process is below, you can download it from the link above. You are conflating high tackle with shoulder charges which are illegal whether high or not.
Process questions and considerations
1. Has head contact occurred?
Head contact includes neck and throat area2. Was there foul play?
Considerations:Intentional
Reckless
Avoidable
3. What was the degree of danger?
Considerations include:Direct vs indirect contact
High force vs low force
4. Is there any mitigation?
Considerations include:Line of sight
Sudden and significant drop or movement
Clear attempt to change height
Level of control
Upright – passive vs dynamic
Wrapping is not mentioned
You have already contradicted yourself on this You said
That’s what happens when people are being tackled, the mitigation is if the player dips or unexpectedly drops, he was being tackled by someone else so it is not unexpected
the framework says
Mitigation
Sudden / significant drop in height or change in direction from ball carrier
A late change in dynamics due to another player in the contact
It wasn't late or unexpected the other tackle was in action well before Gilroy set for the tackle.
An effort to wrap / bind and having no time to adjust
From your list of the fremework
jeepers AA its in black and white as is the late change in dynamics
i am not surprised you think this all unfair when you simply cannot read whats written
Every ref had better be retrained in the AA interpretation
Here have a look, head contact shoulder charge
https://www.world.rugby/the-game/laws/guidelines/19
Here head contact high tackle
https://www.world.rugby/the-game/laws/guidelines/18
You can't mitigate a high tackle by saying they attempted to wrap you can only mitigate a shoulder charge through an attempt to wrap surely you can see that?
Thats not what I said AA
I give in
all the refs have it wrong, your constantly changing idea of what constitutes foul play is right and all refs need retraining in this new interpretion
I give in
Good, with your spare time you can read the links, an attempted wrap does not mitigate a high tackle it mitgates a shoulder charge, it's not hard.
Wrap or not is the difference between a shoulder charge and an attempted tackle Really dude - do you think the refs get it wrong all the time and that you are right or is it just possible you are confused and the refs get it right?
In other news Cardiff beat leinster. A good night for the Welsh clubs and that does Edinburgh a big favour!
Really dude – do you think the refs get it wrong all the time and that you are right or is it just possible you are confused and the refs get it right?
No I think you get it wrong Pyper and the to never mentioned the wrap in that incident as it wasn't relevant. Commentators do all the time, bacause they get it wrong.
Jings TJ; why don't you just nip round and shag AA's dog while you are at it?
Woof!
She"s a bit old for that!
I think he has suffered enough - the dog I mean
She has, had to have a canine tooth out last week after a dog attacked her so she needs cheering up!
Rees Zammit only puts the afterburners on for 4 or 5 steps, it’s then a canter in at the end. Even though he’s very, very quick, it’s his ability to find space and change direction quickly, too.
I wonder how he stacks up against the speedsters of the past?
Rees Zammit only puts the afterburners on for 4 or 5 steps, it’s then a canter in at the end.
Yep, although he's tall too so although he doesn't look that fast he is still going quickly
I wonder how he stacks up against the speedsters of the past?
Pretty good I would say as he has both the acceleration and the step as well as top speed and a good eyre for a gap
We have a new speedster - Freddie Owsley 10.67 100m represented GB under 20s and 6'4" 14stone +
Big Duhan may be fast but its straight lines only - he was SA 100m champ at age grade
Its hard to compare with players of a generation or two ago tho as training and tech has increased the speeds so folk like Walker would be quicker if they had the tech and training that guys have now
Dunno how fast Shane Williams was at top speed but he turned and accelerated so quickly he was hard to catch
I actually think on a rugby field the key thing is how fast you can do 30 or 40 m from a standing start rather than 100m time or top speed. thats what makes the breaks, the acceleration, which is why guys like Shane Williams was so hard to catch and made so many breaks
I don't think any of them are as fast as Nigel Walker was.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=96qJT9hgwIQ
Big Duhan may be fast but its straight lines only – he was SA 100m champ at age grade
Yeah but this is SA, the competition was probably a bloke with no legs 😜
Aye - Walker was olympic level was he not? And I bet with modern shoes, training and tracks he would have been a few tenths quicker than he was
The one who always made me laugh was Big Gav Hastings - pretty quick when he got up to speed but needed a huge run up to build the pace. He used to start his runs about 30 m behind the 3/4 line
Sale v Leicester on itv this afternoon. Sale hitting some form, tigers on a rare losing run! Could be a good game. Weather is good for a change.
Rob de Preez at centre though. Get rid of manu and get someone in with the cash to cover instead of using this guy! Worse hands than me and I’ve got arthritis
Watching Montpellier Exeter and Hogg needs to go to sprint school the 70 intercept. Reinach even with a ball in hand has better sprint technique. Hogg has low knee lift, sideways arms and is tight across the chest and shoulders. SRU need to get them trained for a straight line sprint chase
I saw Rees Zammit play against Worcester a few years back, just before his first international cap. He was very quick, but I was stood behind the posts so never got the “full screen” view.
I remember Habana play against Wales back in his prime. Being side on in the stands I was amazed at how much ground he covered whilst I blinked. One little jink and he was in 10m of space, he put the afterburners on and there was no one in the same quarter of the pitch.
The best two guys I recall using their speed effectively were Andy Harriman and Martin Offiah.
Takudzwa Ngwenya not only burnt off Habana at RWC 2007 but he had plenty of other skills.
Perry Baker is brilliant too.
Rupeni Caucaunibuca probably the fastest guy I've ever seen though.
In the NFL they time the 40yd dash but also clock top speeds during games and some guys maybe aren't that fast at the 40 but have "breakaway" speed that can burn off people once they're at full pace.
I’d love to see combine style tests for rugby players- 30 or 40m dash, agility run, bench, etc.
Also like the idea on eggchasers pod of the two packs standing on a weigh bridge pre game!
It's be more interesting to see straight scrum drive power.
I would love to see speed tests on all players. I think it would be very interesting and I think speed is often underrated. One reason I think McInally is such a good hooker is his speed over the ground - he as fast as a lot of backs. Johnny Grey is hampered by his sloooooooooooow running
I only saw the second half of the Sale v Leicester game but what a turnaround even if it was partly down to subbing of Burns
The one who always made me laugh was Big Gav Hastings
Not a view shared by many who played with or against him, He was captain when I went to London Scottish. Properly rapid off the mark and if that didn't burn you off,well; he had a plan b that usually left a mark.He did look like he was running through a swamp but trust me; as a 20yo open side who could run like a gas escape, your mind was filled with all the things you still had hoped to do as you realised he was coming back in between the centres.
Fair enough - it did look like he took a while to get up to speed from the stands
I was at accies for a season when I came back north Findlay Calder was coaching a few summer sessions. Not fast but like a nightmare no matter how fast you moved he just walked and then hit you.......hard.
I would love to see speed tests on all players.
I think you will find those that make the selections know all of this.
I was at accies for a season when I came back north Findlay Calder was coaching a few summer sessions.
He was pointlessly dirty, I played against him for Dundee.
Mind you; he wasn't all bad....
Ducky, AA, Reffing experts. Are these four clear outs still legal?
Ths is to do with an upcoming Six Nations pub quiz type thing I have, and wish to beat the french dude who runs another team in our pub.
Some strange reffing at the moment. The Irish ref asking the the penalty be kicked through the mark, as opposed to the mark being the start for a 5m step and kick (good).
Leicester scoring a lot of maul tries with players attaching ahead of the ball carrier(at least twice at the weekend). I thought it was behind and pass the ball back.
Driving round the ruck needs more penalising.
They are all legal in the demo but a million miles removed from a game situation.The first one where he grabs under the shoulders is lovely, but good luck it not becoming a neck roll. Being able to do it depends on other players not having joined the ruck, otherwise where are you going to put him? You also have to remember that they are using a bag that is twice the height of a tackled player.
In other news Finn Russell was saying how he regrets not finishing his last year as an apprentice stonemason. Now up here proper stonemasons are well paid,and parts of Stirling ARE quite nice but I am not sure it is as good as living in one of the prettiest cities in the world while earning a million euros a year...
A penalty kick should be through the mark, as in the ball should be kicked at the mark. Not start at the mark walk forwards then kick.
The same as a free kick, a tap and go, a place kick. You can walk backwards on a place kick to improve an angle, but it’s straight backwards not diagonal. A tap and go from a scrum penalty can be straight backwards from the scrum mark from hooker to number eight. It can’t be diagonal or too far back.
They are all legal in the demo but a million miles removed from a game situation.The first one where he grabs under the shoulders is lovely, but good luck it not becoming a neck roll. Being able to do it depends on other players not having joined the ruck, otherwise where are you going to put him? You also have to remember that they are using a bag that is twice the height of a tackled player.
Cheers. Its just for a pub discussion.
The crocodile roll was the one that concerned me, I thought it was banned last year.
Well England Wales will be a penalty fest and lots of tmo discussion.
Mr Adamson is on the whistle for it.
Indeed we have the new scrum laws and a lot the England team either injured or playing out of position, I’m less confident today than I was a few weeks ago. I reckon it’ll be a close stop/start game.
I’m sure Eddie will have those excuses ready.
On the plus side I’m enjoying U14 rugby with Jnr (13 players, 3/4 pitch no line out and 25 mins per half). Looks like proper rugby now, and the players are finding their positions. Jnr took inspiration from a Jack Nowell compilation whereby I walked him through positioning, and why Nowell was doing this / that a few weeks ago (he’s pretty much the comparable size and shape) and played an awesome game scoring twice, supporting well and making lots of metres with varied lines. So I’m hoping after a lukewarm Saturday with England that Sunday morning will be a lot more exciting locally.
Jnr took inspiration from a Jack Nowell compilation
I sat my boy down and made him watch endless Justin Tipuric videos on YouTube. He now has a blue scrum cap 😄😄
This will be for you then Krypton
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zbYAyalgjsE
Tompkins and a midget backrow FFS
15. Freddie Steward (Leicester Tigers, 5 caps)
14. Max Malins (Saracens, 10 caps)
13. Elliot Daly (Saracens, 52 caps)
12. Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs, 43 caps)
11. Joe Marchant (Harlequins, 7 caps)
10. Marcus Smith (Harlequins, 5 caps)
9. Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 112 caps)
1. Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers, 31 caps)
2. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, 31 caps)
3. Kyle Sinckler (Bristol Bears, 47 caps)
4. Maro Itoje (Saracens, 51 caps)
5. Nick Isiekwe (Saracens, 3 caps)
6. Lewis Ludlam (Northampton Saints, 10 caps)
7. Tom Curry (c) (Sale Sharks, 36 caps)
8. Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs, 9 caps)
Finishers
16. Jamie George (Saracens, 61 caps)
17. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 74 caps)
18. Will Stuart (Bath Rugby, 15 caps)
19. Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby, 26 caps)
20. Alex Dombrandt (Harlequins, 4 caps)
21. Harry Randall (Bristol Bears, 2 caps)
22. George Ford (Leicester Tigers, 77 caps)
23. Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 34 caps)
How did Ludlam get in the squad? Umm worng bloke. He looks pretty good actually.
I like the look of it. New blood, we need. Excited to see Smith and Slade together.
That tight 5 will leak penalties over a scavaging Scottish back row.
Compared to most England teams that pack looks like it's light of lineout jumpers and Daly has never convinced at 13, why would he now?
The Welsh Team is awful and Pivac picked team to play fast and wide with no carriers for heavy traffic, in Dublin, in February 😟🤞😥
If we stay within 20 I'll be pleasantly surprised.
If we stay within 20 I’ll be pleasantly surprised.
Pivac may have to play his red card joker early? Ref gets back for half time orange and there is an envelope with compromising photos on his seat, along with a copy of the teamsheets with a name circled.
Daly has never convinced at 13
Although I don't disagree, he was better at Centre for the Lions in 2 games than he's ever been at 15 for England but anyway I reckon thats for long shots at goal which for me is pretty pointless in the Scottish weather with 38mpg gusts predicted. I reckon he's got naked pics of Eddie to get straight back in as first choice, can't understand why Nowell isn't on, he's much more intelligent on the ground than Daly - lets hope they swap pretty quickly.