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One thing is for sure, England are being pinged far too much. Whether deservedly or not, it doesn’t matter. Smart players adjust.
I haven’t seen the stats on possession, but I doubt England had much. Then again, if you get pinged every possession, you won’t have much!!
I do love watching Josh Adams when he gets moving. RZ has the wheels but Adam’s is so strong/slippery.
Watch how Zammo leaves May behind!!
Can you run up to a player and rap the ball over his head, run round him and kick it before it lands then?
I dunno - but if you drop the ball, it hits your lower leg, then it goes over the player's head you can collect it and play on, even if it hits the floor. This is called a 'kick'.
Knock on all day long.
Gamesmanship in playing the ref for the Adams try from the penalty kick.
England didn’t learn from their mistakes. You play to the ref, you play to the invisible line only the ref can see. As a professional player you should be able to figure that out within the first few minutes.
I think the English players are being over coached, there are some very good players in that team and their natural abilities are so repressed it’s like watching rugby by numbers.
Wales March on, partially due to the awful ref.
I think that the English players are being chewed out by Jones all the time, which makes them uncertain and robs confidence.
Knock on all day long
If you listen to the conversation with the TMO, there was almost no debate..to the officials that know the rules, it wasn't
Wales had a pre planned move ready, biggar asked the ref to tell him when time was back on, it was the refs call from there. Could have been 2 or 40 seconds before he blew.
Awful decision, but not Wales fault or gamesmanship
Wales had a pre planned move ready, biggar asked the ref to tell him when time was back on
not sure if pre-planned, but willimas ran up to bigs, had a word and then the way bigs asked the question, they knew exactly what they were doing. fair play to them, but i can fully understand why faz was furious
I feel a bit sorry for Itoje, he is trying to be two locks to make up for that huge useless dumb lump they keep picking alongside him.
I think that the English players are being chewed out by Jones all the time, which makes them uncertain and robs confidence.
I get this feeling too, I don’t suppose there is much nuance in his approach to the players.
I wonder if England believe the hype they generate too much. They just expect to win. Scotland are always going to be totally up for their game with England. They brought an intensity which England couldn’t match. Wales were far more alert. There’s not much between England, Wales, Ireland or Scotland so these things make all the difference.
so i''m going to say it, and i know my welsh brethren are studiously trying to not think about it, but i'm just going to say it - wales for the the slam.
now, whilst there is undoubtedly and a large element of post biking drinking for most of the afternoon in my assertation, there is some logic. we'll beat italy and then it's France in delayed game / post covid turmoil when we're four games on the bounce and looking incrementally better each game. you've got to fancy the men in reds chances when we have history to responding to the big game?
and if that is the case, can you think of a GS that could be deemed as "spawny" previously?
PS fully aware i've just jinxed it / this comment will come back to haunt me
Wales had a pre planned move ready
Not for the first time with this ref...
Ref called time on, game on.
Farrell could well have seen a card for the back chat as well. Which would have been hilarious.
Also, that LRZ video above, shades of Ieuan Evans absolutely smoking Rory Underwood in 93 (think it was 93)
Looking at the knock on incident again I have slightly revised my view of the facts. The ball did go forward after RZ first touched it, but possibly he did maintain contact with it at all times until it hit his thigh and started going backwards, whereupon he lost contact with it. Which I think makes it not a knock-on.
Knock-on: When a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.
If you interpret losing possession as happening at the last point of contact with the ball before the ground or another player touches it, then the ball did not go forward after possession was lost.
It is not clear if RZ maintaind a hand/finger on the ball over the relevant time, but I guess the benefit of the doubt should go to him.
ETA on this version of the facts, the difficult area of interpretation of the rules (player loses contact with the ball, the ball goes forward but then goes backwards off the players legs) is not relevant.
Wales had a pre planned move ready
Not for the first time with this ref…
Ref called time on, game on.
I think Wales also knew that Ford would be "hidden" on the wing in defence in those moments. Smart play, but still, I think poor from ref.
I also liked the fact that for the first 10 mins everywhere Zammo went in defence North was right next to him. First kick off went to Zammo's wing and North took it.
Did anybody see the brief update to the ref's wiki entry?
Own up Kryton!
Pascal Gauzere is a referee for Wales who represents the Welsh Rugby Federation at the international level.He has officiated at the highest level since 2006 refereeing pro14, Heineken Cup and 6 Nations matches. He unfortunately doesn't understand what a knock on is and is in a relationship with Alun Wyn Jones.
A game with plenty of talking points, Wales deserved winners, not sure on a grand slam as somewhat flattering opponents to date and France will be tough. I feel a bit for Itoje as mentioned above, having to play with the useless lump Hill. His only contribution to a game is missing tackles and flopping over on the wrong side. People criticise England's constant kicking but it appears Young's has little other option as if they keep the ball in the own half they give a kickable penalty away.
Nigel Owens says both tries should have been disallowed
My view (FWIW) is first one was a bit unfair (tho the English players were in position and ready on the other side of the pitch); second one..I have no idea..but there seems to be some ambiguity in the laws.
Also, it's reported that the French government are threatening to withdraw permission for France to play if they can't come up with a decent reason to explain how they managed to get Covid when they're supposed to be in a bubble.
Oh, and England lost cos of lack of discipline...
Own up Kryton!
Lol! I was alerted to it yesterday but was too slow to take a screen shot.
That issue will rage on, theres plenty of clips online now where he’s talking to Biggar, snaps a look at England in a huddle then quickly blows his whistle - watch that section in isolation and it looks like a deliberate call.
The England team’s in a bit of a mess now and on a downhill. Their game has been worked out, their coaching to rigid and adaption on the pitch missing, then the ref goes against them and it must feel like they can’t do anything right. Social media is on the rampage for EJ’s sacking.
On the plus side their were some good individual performances. Billy and Mako V were better, May has sharpened up, Watson as good as always and although quiet there was nothing wrong with Sincklers game. Centre needs looking at, Farrells the political choice and Slade isn’t offering too much to scare people at international level. Daley’s performance speaks for itself.
true but misses the point that without those two dodgy tries (maybe not technically incorrect but very debatable) England would have been at least 12 points in front. Then you don't need to chase the game in the same way, push the boundaries, etc. I know people say that it got back to 24:24 but to do that they'd already burnt any lenience and as a result the Welsh referee was looking to ping them whenever he could, and while they were daft to give him the opportunity he couldn't wait to get his Dragon-emblazened whistle out of his pocket and blow it again.
Very poor - and disrespectful in the way he treated Farrell. It cuts both ways and the ref should never do an international again on that performance. Player management is a vital part, he clearly can't do it, and just relies on 'authority'.
Now as far as the ref goes, I think it wasn't good, but why were England coming out of the huddle having drinks, why did one winger run to cover his side whilst the other wander over aimlessly. Why were they not seemingly aware that Wales hadn't called a shot at goal. The ref has to call time on eventually and when he does Wales can play.
Rule one paragraph one of how to play rugby, watch out for a quick tap.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1365719444861964295
That is very interesting.
Players on the right ran into position and were in position. Players on the left were walking slowly backs to the ref. The ref did not blow the whistle till after the huddle had broken up and there had been time to set as can be seen from the fat the RHS was set
Two mistakes from the english players. We all know Biggar is a sneaky shit. someone would have been watching and walking into position backs to the ref
Rule one paragraph one of how to play rugby, watch out for a quick tap.
True, and then they did it again for the one they tapped later on. Doubly poor.
I never played rugby after school and don't know it in such detail. I did play football to a decent level and reffed that as well. I don't see it as very different to the free kick guidance that ref's are taught. That if you want to take a quick one, then take a quick one - but once that couple of seconds has passed, and it becomes a 'ceremonial' free kick, then it's to the whistle. And then you run through a check list - any cards sorted and done, ball in right place, wall back 10, ref in position and a quick check to see the goalie isn't still lining up the wall / cleaning his studs on the post / wiping his gloves on a towel. You might need to hurry him/her up a bit at that point, but you still check.
The ref here seemed only to happy to further penalise England after asking Farrell to talk to his players. With Biggar asking for when time was back on he needed to just say 'I asked them to have a word, now they need to reset' and OK, hurry them up a bit.
Referees are supposed to referee the game without influencing or impacting it. You can argue the second try wasn't because it technically may have been correct, but the referee absolutely influenced the scoring of the first.
De ja vu. At 1:33 SA captain told to speak to his players, 6 seconds later O’Gara takes a tap penalty. Brian Moore in commentary says “they should have been paying attention”. Is it possible that with so many England players not having played much rugby recently, that they were somewhat in a training mindset?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=BnJQQtkTc6g
Congratulations to Wales and they thoroughly deserved the win. Both tries were fine IMO, with the first probably being the more debatable. The thing is, if England didn't give away penalties the way they do, then they wouldn't find themselves in the position of having to defend against them.
Wales played well and to their considerable strengths, adjusted their game to the reffing much better and quicker than England. The final result demonstrated the difference that currently exists between the 2 teams. Wales should win the G.S.
England do seem to have problems and I don't think the current staff are progressing the team. Farrell isn't performing well, seems frustrated and just does not deliver the kind of leadership the likes of Alun Wyn Jones does now or Martin Johnson did. England have very talented players, so I do have to question whether Jones (and his selections & tactics) need a refresh. I don't like calling for coaches to be replaced but Jones' leadership doesn't appear to be improving England, the same problems are seen game after game.
There is also the point with that first try that Wales were in the groove and attacking, England had been pinged numerous times for infringing. The ref says have a word, it’s England’s decision to go to a huddle and take a breather, why did they get the water on? They assumed it was a kick at goal, switched off? It’s the same as a tap and go. Got to be switched on. I think the ref had just had enough of England and their infringements and moaning tbh.
I think the ref had just had enough of England and their infringements tbh
But you are supposed to be neutral and treat each incident in isolation. It's hard but 'I'm pissed off with you now so I'm going to allow this....' is not good refereeing.
anagallis_arvensis
Full Member
Now as far as the ref goes, I think it wasn’t good, but why were England coming out of the huddle having drinks
The ref told Farrell to have a word with his players.Thats good refereeing as it signals to the players that it is becoming a card issue and he is giving them a final chance to sort it out.That's what they were doing when the penalty was taken. Why he would then turn and signal to take the penalty is something he will be discussing on a zoom meeting this week. The second one? Less clear in the laws( and they ARE laws now) but we used to be taught that it is about control of the ball, so seen that called back. Unfortunately they are what the game will always be remembered for, triple crown or not.
why were England coming out of the huddle having drinks
The ref told Farrell to have a word with his players.Thats good refereeing as it signals to the players that it is becoming a card issue and he is giving them a final chance to sort it out.That’s what they were doing when the penalty was taken. Why he would then turn and signal to take the penalty is something he will be discussing on a zoom meeting this week.
In my eyes the referee is the one who controls the game. He should be the one to allow or not the water carriers on. It was a poor show to not at least ask for a confirmation from Farrell that the “word” had been delivered and done.
Why the “word” required a meeting rather that “CUT OUT THE STUPID ****ING PENALTIES!!!!!!” Is only something they will know. I suspect it was so Jones could get a message on to the field to micro manage the game.
Exactly big black shed. Why did they need a huddle? It stopped the flow of the Welsh attack, stopping the clock, getting water on. That’s gamesmanship as much as Dan Biggars smartly taken quick chat with the ref and kick.
Burko,it was the REF who told Faz to talk to his players about the number of penalties. While they were doing that he turned to Biggar and indicated he could take the penalty.
That’s what they were doing when the penalty was taken
If you watch the video they had finished the huddle and were fanning out, some with urgency, others were just hanging about having a drink. When he says time on Wales can play.... I agree it was shit but no laws were broken so once the try had been scored it had to stand.
The ref told Farrell to have a word with his players.
He didn't say have a break and a drink though did he...watch Mako, it looks like he's supping a pint as he turns and watches the ball being kicked to the corner!!!! I mean I think it's piss funny but fully agree I wouldn't if it happened to Wales.
Wales playing to the ref was what led to England getting quick ball for there tries, Wales pretty much stopped competing at the break down, England just carried on conceding pens and were lucky not to see yellow.
I can't understand the high tackle on Halaholo, they were gibbering on about the use of arms, it was still a high tackle rather than a shoulder charge, mitigation he started low and slipped up but he certainly hit him high, pen, move on, nothing more but it was illegal.
Itoje must have been close to having a mid game sit down given how many penalties he gave away.
Oh and penalties, never turn your back on the opposition.
And the coaches coming on at every break to pass messages needs looked at. Sorry water carriers.
For me, I think the fact that the players on the right we're in position makes it just about ok..it would suggest to the ref that the team meeting was over...I don't think the ref has to wait for the water carriers to leave the pitch (high time that stupid practice stopped anyway)
Unfortunately they are what the game will always be remembered for, triple crown or not.
I don't think so, in 5 years time it will just be another win.
To me both contested tries show the rugby basics, play to the whistle.
I think after the 'knock on' the England players eased off, as it looked like a knock on, where as Williams just carried on.
The penalty just reminds me of the Mike Phillips, wrong ball lineout try. He was officially wrong, but they scored and that's that.
England need to heed the ref more and learn how to control the ref. Wales did that better.
It might be tricky but a win is a win.
Unfortunately they are what the game will always be remembered for, triple crown or not.
Jam Slam on the cards.
Currently just a triple frown.
As an Ireland fan, just want to say there was nothing jammy about Wales first win.
Scored more tries, more points, and defended better. Pom deserved red. It didn't cause the result, Wales earned it. Ireland did well to get the losing bonus point with 14.
Thought they deserved their other two wins aswell, tbh.
My view, match official stops time, tells captain to sort out his players. It is the officials responsibility to make sure that both teams are set and ready to resume. he cannot allow one team to take a quick penalty as he has stopped time. The water carriers are on for both teams, in fact one of the Welsh ones is running over to talk to Josh Adams when play restarts. I am an hockey umpire and if I did something similar, I would expect a very painful Zoom call the following week.
England's inability to stop giving away penalties was the main reason that Wales won. But if you are chasing a game you tend to give away penalties. Will be interesting to see what matches the ref gets in the future.
sadmadalan
If you look at the twitter link AA posted above its clear that the huddle has broken up and there has been plenty of time for the players to get set. Its not the refs fault they wasted it. RHS defense is all in place.
Thats not the refs fault. He is wandering about and wanders over to the mark. Stands there for a few seconds then raises his hand and blows the whistle.
Ref did nowt wrong. Biggar is a sneaky git, the England team were incredibly lackadaisical
yes I would be fuming if it was my team and yes initially it looked like the ref got it wrong but having seen that clip its 100% the english players at fault. the RHS winger is right at the touchline facing the play and watching. the LHS defense is slowly walking into position with backs to the play
Itoje and pens - the type of player he is he will always risk pens and some of the m were harsh but thowing players across lineouts is an unforced error, deliberate knockon is an unforced error, being offside and joining play iss an unforced error.
another game only 2 or 3 of the five would have been given. Thats the way it goes.
Scotland / England we got every bounce of the ball and every 50 / 50 decision. Scotland / wales Wales got the run of the green. Thats just how it goes
What cost England the game was not the ref. What cost them was dumb penalties and the compounding them - same as Scotland Wales. Also throwing easy intercepts
But if you are chasing a game you tend to give away penalties.
It was 24 all with about 20 to go and England still have away a load of pens.
That Genge is a lad eh!
https://twitter.com/i/status/1366036298461552643
Toys out of pram.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1365968192762490880
And PSA,
Rugby codebreakers, bbc1 2350
That Genge is a lad eh!
Wonder if he'll get cited for that?
There is no way England where set. It was a terrible bit of referring but not why England lost. And if England hadn’t been such penalty magnets for a few years then they would get away with more.
That Genge is a lad eh!
Top megabantz lolz right?
Also, clapping your opponents off the pitch is just so lame, isn't it? Far better to put your hands behind your back and act like a sulky child that didn't get a sweetie.
A shame. He could, and should, be one of the best props England have produced in ages. However...
Bear - look at the twitter link above and look at the RHS - I think its Watson. He is right on his wing, facing the opposition, bouncing on his toes ready to play before the ref blew time on
Yes the rest of the English defense were not set - but thats not the refs fault - thats their fault because if one winger can get in position the others could have done
that England huddle was not just "stop giving away penalties" that was a full on tactical discussion and the players going to the left hand side are wandering across with their backs to the game.
they can only blame themselves
How a decent referee does it.
Tj has it for me. I can see why England supporters were peeved, it was somewhat harsh, but they should have been more alert imho. What is annoying is the English press’ slating of the ref, calling him biased etc, etc. There was little to no mention of a possible forward pass for Watson’s try. Not to mention England benefitting from several borderline/dubious decisions in the game against Italy - which everyone was more than happy to accept.
I really would have loved to have seen France v Scotland today : (
That’s not a set defensive line, three players are on the right two moving left with a scrum in the middle.
Having asked him to speak to his players he should also communicate to be ready. It is poor, biased no, but poor is not in dispute by most, including several ex players and refs, from all sides.
England’s biggest problem is Jones.
Bear - some of the players were ready - those on the right. If the guy right out on the right wing as we look at it can be ready the rest of them can be. If they were watching the ref then they would have had plenty of time. sure not all were set but the england team were taking the mickey taking so long and if 3 players had time to get set everyone had time to get set.
I really would have loved to have seen France v Scotland today : (
Indeed - it had the makings of a classic with two teams with positive intent and attacking play going head to head
That’s not a set defensive line, three players are on the right two moving left with a scrum in the middle.
True and like I said it was shit from the ref, but the discussion was over they had split up and a number were having drinks and wandering about aimlessly.
Daly was still doing his nails when Hardy scored his try, an international fullback when the pen was given and he turned his back and walked away from the exact spot Hardy ran through!! Shocking.
Jones' fault.
A word to your players does not need an army of assistant coaches.
I was coached from early, never turn your back on a penalty. Just never.
As a lot on commentators have said England's ill discipline shouldn't allow them to benefit by disrupting the flow of the game.
But ultimately never turn your back on a penalty or stop watching the opposition.
Genge is the frustration of that squad writ larde. In that he's all Billy big baws when it's going his way but can't control his emotions when it's not and more importantly can't reset.
Genge is the frustration of that squad writ larde.
He was pissed off with Davies not kicking the ball straight out at the end and was chopsing at Davies who just walked past him with a massive grin....all 9's are ****s!!
It’s taken a very dark turn this morning with online abuse of several players, Sonja McLaughlin and death threats to Genge.
Sonja McLaughlin
She is awful mind, has been for years, never tried to discuss the game she just tries to prod wounds and provoke reactions, cant stand the way she interviews.
Sonja McLaughlin
She is awful mind, has been for years, never tried to discuss the game she just tries to prod wounds and provoke reactions, cant stand the way she interviews.
Nobody should receive abuse but it didn’t seem too bad, nothing to get overly upset about - she won’t want to pack her job in and become a police officer or teacher.
Death threats though is outrageous.
^the above being based on:
McLaughlan wrote on Twitter after the match: “Toxic, embarrassing, disgraceful, appalling. Just some of the feedback I’ve had. Thanks for using @ sign so it’s all hit home … Now imagine getting inundated with abuse for doing your job. In my car crying. Hope you’re happy.”
Toxic, embarrassing, disgraceful, appalling
Embarrassing and appalling yep, toxic and disgraceful a bit harsh but understandable imo. AWJ was the winner so was happy to shrug it off, Faz and Jones did well
Even I was taught in school in the few rugby lessons I had to keep watching the opposition - that kind of quick tap/cheeky kick is part of the game. And play to the whistle!
To be fair, it takes balls to attempt something like that - and Adams was expecting it. When the ref says 'talk to your players' does that mean talk to them right now, and I'll wait for you to finish whilst you take as long as you want? I'd always assumed it meant 'spread the word' or some such.
The second cheeky tap and go though was genius. Perhaps now with two such moments in a high profile game players will be on their toes a bit more and we can expect more lively rugby.
There is no way England were set
Half of the English team seemed to think that Biggar was going to kick for goal. Does the ref need to shout over to remind them how to defend against a corner kick?
See now, the abuse of Mclaughlin I saw on twitter isn't any worse that AA's opinion of her up there. Any screen grabs of actual death threats or was she crying in her car because she is actually crap? Because she really is.
When I played and the ref said talk to your players it was "Right lads stop getting caught."
I know it keeps getting said but it's worth repeating. It's the micromanaging of the teams through water carriers.
Teams play when there are medics attending to injured players sometimes pretty close to them. Is biggar had kicked and hit an on pitch water carrier I wonder what would happen. What is IRB stance on water carriers? I'm sure they used to get permission to come on the pitch.
I was watching that game as a welsh, and on zoom, some friends, a kiwi, an English and an Irish.
We all simultainiously bust out laughing in shock at that post match interview, the line of questioning was clearly designed to goad an emotional response, as Farrel was clearly a *bit* upset already. Compleatly unessesary. Thankfully he didn't rise to the bait.
Doesn't warrant threats on social media, that's just as bad, if not worse. But she should probably have a word with herself.
See now, the abuse of Mclaughlin I saw on twitter isn’t any worse that AA’s opinion of her up there.
I've only seen the headlines about her bursting into tears in the car having been called toxic, etc. Presumably she thinks it ok to needle players who've just lost important matches when they can only be polite in return? She often seems to want to embarrass the players she's talking to - presumably it's come back to bite her?
See now, the abuse of Mclaughlin I saw on twitter isn’t any worse that AA’s opinion of her up there. Any screen grabs of actual death threats or was she crying in her car because she is actually crap? Because she really is.
It does feel a bit like when someone stands up to the school bully and they run off crying. All she was trying to do in those post match interviews was trying to get someone to say something that would get them into trouble. It was immediately after the game and emotions were obviously raw so instead of being refined and trying to bottom things out she just poked at raw wounds hoping for someone to lash out. That could have led to them getting fined or whatever purely for the desire for a controversial headline scoop. It's shitty journalism at its worst.
having been called toxic
from what I gather she wasn't called toxic...she said the abuse was toxic. Knowing what keyboard warriors are like, I imagine the abuse would have been pretty brutal. And I don't see anything wrong with her asking what they thought of two very controversial incidents....if she hadn't asked, she'd have been criticised for that.
I think the people on here who are essentially defending the online abuse she received because they think she's crap should have a think about what they're saying
from what I gather she wasn’t called toxic…
Toxic, embarrassing, disgraceful, appalling. Just some of the feedback I've had.
"Thanks for using @ sign so it's all hit home … Now imagine getting inundated with abuse for doing your job. In my car crying. Hope you're happy."
She doesn't specify any more than that.
And I don’t see anything wrong with her asking what they thought of two very controversial incidents….
She doesn't ask, she needles. She's done it plenty of times before to plenty of other players. I've seen AWJ look like he wants to kill her while answering in a vaguely civil way.
I don’t see anything wrong with her asking what they thought of two very controversial incidents
It was the phrasing and the obvioulsly leading questions, deliberately provocative. He was clearly upset about some things, you could see the contortions on Farrels face as he was biting his lip. That's not a post match interview, it's bear baiting.
Equally, I don't know what was said about her on social media as it's not a thing for me, but that is equally as bad as her interview technique, if not worse.
I think the people on here who are essentially defending the online abuse she received because they think she’s crap should have a think about what they’re saying
Literally nobody on here is defending online abuse "essentially" or in any other way. Good virtue signalling though.
Good virtue signalling though
😂
Good virtue signalling though
😂
See now, the abuse of Mclaughlin I saw on twitter isn’t any worse that AA’s opinion
I'd be quite happy to see her interview politicians. She could be the next Paxman, Just not post match rugby players when a bit of tact might be needed.
To be clear its not my opinion of her its my opinion of he interviewing, I've never been a fan of it.
I’d be quite happy to see her interview politicians. She could be the next Paxman, Just not post match rugby players when a bit of tact might be needed.
Couldn't disagree more, the standard of political interviewing is also poor, for much the same reasons. Aggressive interviewing lets the interviewee off the hook
Aggressive interviewing lets the interviewee off the hook
Digression, but I dissagree, it's very rare a UK MP holds an open interview, it's all controlled pre-arranged 'soft' questions.
See now, the abuse of Mclaughlin I saw on twitter isn’t any worse that AA’s opinion
Is that the best you can do?
It would still be a Welsh win, given how many penalties they gave away. I suppose you could argue that England lost form and got demoralised, but that's on them.
It's just a game.
It is just a game, but you can't just subtract the points and think that gives the result. It's momentum, the need to chase the game and push the boundaries on the way, that then adds to the 'too many' penalties count later. It creates the frustration and panic. It wears a team down leaving them more susceptible in the last 15 mins. All can contribute.
I don't think England played well enough to win and they do concede too many stupid penalties.
But sometimes games do turn on moments and decisions, and both of these could have gone differently.