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To be honest, hand-delivered mail does seem remarkably 20th century. I'm amazed we're not already queuing at remote distribution centres (with no parking obvs) to collect our own post.
Given that letter numbers are on a long term trend downwards, it's hardly surprising....
To be quite honest, I'm amazed we still get post other than birthday cards.
I'd say 90% of the post that comes through our door is spam of some sort.
I'm sure there's a lot going on other than strikes that have contributed but I've not used royal mail now for ebay sales for a month or two because of the strikes and companies I buy from are increasingly using other couriers. A work supplier has stopped using RM at all due to the impact of strikes and are soley using couriers. I can imagine they may well not be going back to RM.
DPD, UPS, DHL must be clicking their heels.
EDIT - hopefully the imapct of the strikes is enough to streamline what RM are offering and the way they operate. Unfortunatly I imagine the net result of that would be further redundancies as the organisation gets more efficient/pulls back services.
EDIT – hopefully the imapct of the strikes is enough to streamline what RM are offering and the way they operate.
Unlikely as improving efficiency means less people are needed, so the Unions will never agree to that. They're just going to die a slow death.....
Good job the shareholders got a nice fat payout just in the nick of time
Sad news for the workers and the small businesses that rely on RM.With strikes being planned for the nearly all of November it's hard to see how RM as we know it will survive. Always have positive interactions with the delivery and sorting office staff and for small businesses RM offer a service that no competitor can provide. We do not need another gig economy delivery firm.
Anyone business that can switch to another service will do so if the November strikes go ahead, many will not return. We use fulfilment company for our products and they have now switched all services to Amazon delivery. But there are no alternatives for drop off at 5pm, deliver next day which we need for our b2b additive manufacturing services. Delivery will now take as long as production.
Not surprising - unfortunately they no longer have a monopoly on the services they provide, but are acting like they are special. They have to compete with everyone else and their ways of working.
Most of my post is junk or official stuff that could easily be emailed. There's obviously packages as well but there's an awful lot of competition and my postman definitely doesn't move as fast as the local Amazon/Evri drivers
They'll just split off the international and parcel businesses, which are profitable and let the postal union destroy the letters business. Without radical surgery it's just a matter of time till it collapses under it's own weight.
Hmm didnt the boss get a £150k bonus this summer (presumably cost of living hitting him hard )
And shareholders getting £400m payout
This how privatisation is supposed to work?
Royal mail is hopeless here. They kept the covid business hours long after covid restrictions were lifted and seem to have random opening hours at the depot for picking up parcels. The earliest redelivery of a parcel online was about 5 - days later and going on strike for a day or two created a delay of 2 weeks for mail to arrive.
But there are no alternatives for drop off at 5pm, deliver next day which we need for our b2b additive manufacturing services. Delivery will now take as long as production.
You might be the supplier I refer to!!
BBC now reporting it's 10,000 jobs
Having recently started as a part-time postie, it’s pretty difficult to see how cuts are not going to create problems at the front-end. Two of us job-share a round and it’s not uncommon to be working beyond 9pm as the post doesn’t arrive here gone 11:30am. If the ferries don’t run due to stormy weather, there is no post.
Not only do we deliver post but we also deliver Parcel Force - huge boxes, stuff weighing 25kg+, I have one customer, a baker that gets regular deliveries of sacks of flour. Quite frequently the van is rammed to the roof, I have 240 ‘stops’ and supposed to memorise everything in the back of the van including 100+ Amazon boxes.
We have no storage at the sorting office, it either goes in the delivery vans or gets sent back to the mainland to come back the next day. With the strikes, we get 2 days worth of stuff to deliver, like today but they won’t send it over an earlier ferry to help. This weekend is the Mull Rally and the roads on my run are closed from 6pm, so some places I’ll have 3 days of post to deliver tomorrow.
This week the fuel card bills haven’t been paid so we’ve been writing IOUs at the petrol station.
Most of the delivery vans are knackered - mine went off to the mainland for a service displaying an engine warning light - it came back exactly the same. They fit the cheapest tyres - my run is entirely singletrack roads and quite a lot of unmade roads/gravel tracks and we do get snow in winter - I expect to get stuck a few times.
The compensation is that the scenery is absolutely stunning, I’m out on roads by myself with eagles, peregrines and deer looking across to Tiree, Ardnamurchan, Rum, Skye and the small isles
I just walked past a postie getting his delivery bag out of a hire van. Seems like more paid out in dividends than in investment. 'Modernisation' and 'efficiencies' are just euphemisms for sacking people and getting others to do their jobs, you don't need to grow the business to make profits just screw down on the variable costs, reduce the service and the ackers roll in.
While it's outdated in some respect getting letters, can anyone sniff asset stripping and venture capitalists.
Postie is ace round my way take huge pride in her routes
But there are no alternatives for drop off at 5pm, deliver next day which we need for our b2b additive manufacturing services. Delivery will now take as long as production.
To me this is part of the issue. Do things really need to be next day delivery or do people need to be more organised?
It's just become a thing that everyone expects. I'd have no issue if normal post was delivered to my area only two days a week. People will get used to it and adjust.
I know this isn't acceptable now, but back in the day when I'd order stuff out of Shoot magazine in the 70's it was always 'please allow 6 weeks for delivery'! 🙂
Struggling to think of the last thing I posted. Bank and credit card statements online. Wouldn't be the end of the world if they went on all out strike and we sent E-cards this Xmas.
We actually get good service for deliveries from RM but a business based on supplying a need - letter delivery 6 days a week - which is either no longer there or now in a competitive market needs to change.
Unreliable service and even less people will use it.
Maybe time to move to the model used in parts of rural USA. A room with rows and rows of boxes where you can get your letters as frequently or infrequently as you like.
My only comment is the photo of the 4 blokes in the article looks more like an advert for some kind of sitcom.
RM made 450mil last year in profits, & gave that away to shareholders and in bonuses rather than invest some in the buisness and staff. Hense the strikes.
This year, prediction is a 250mil loss, being blamed on the strikes by RM - but RM also had a large shake up of their pricing structures in April and reduced the cost of all of the parcels, I guess aiming for a bigger and more competitive cut of the domestic market. They also started their own revenue stream, cutting out post offices buy selling on line at a further reduced price, which from the feed back I've had has been poor move as customers didn't realize they couldn't use the PO as a drop off point and had to go to a RM parcel bin or sorting office.
Letters have been in decline year on year for 15yrs or so, with parcels are on a slight increase. Problem is that RM contractually still have to be able to deliver a letter to every address in the UK for a set price - no other delivery company in the UK is tied to this by the government & no other delivery company will deliver a letter for 68p 🤷♂️.
Do things really need to be next day delivery or do people need to be more organised?
With that specific example of additive manufacturing one of the great benefits of AM is speed of manufacturing. Being more organised doesn't come into it when product development process speed is affected or cost-benefit of holding stock vs manufacturing to order whether that be production parts or spares/breakdown parts.
Letters have been in decline year on year for 15yrs or so, with parcels are on a slight increase. Problem is that RM contractually still have to be able to deliver a letter to every address in the UK for a set price – no other delivery company in the UK is tied to this by the government & no other delivery company will deliver a letter for 68p
Yep, none of their competitors have this cost and can just cherry pick the more profitable bits.
They also started their own revenue stream, cutting out post offices buy selling on line at a further reduced price, which from the feed back I’ve had has been poor move as customers didn’t realize they couldn’t use the PO as a drop off point and had to go to a RM parcel bin or sorting office.
I still don't understand how POs make money - they just seem totally redundant esp as you can now get RM to pick up parcels from your front door.
I still don’t understand how POs make money – they just seem totally redundant esp as you can now get RM to pick up parcels from your front door.
It's the only place I can guarantee there will always be a (slow moving) queue! 🙂
So they must be selling services of some sort.
So they must be selling services of some sort.
All of which you can probably get online far quicker!
Just seems like bank branches, something from a previous generation which has no place in the modern world.
My local post office shut down because he didn't make money, they now operate the shop side elsewhere.
let the postal union destroy the letters business
Straight outta the Tory playbook. Blame the unions, blame the workers. Never blame the bosses. Never blame the profiteers. Never blame greed.
of course there is. But possibly your volume/order value isn't enough to make it viable? The business next door to us has a UPS truck turn up at 5pm, every day, to ship their next-day orders out.But there are no alternatives for drop off at 5pm, deliver next day which we need for our b2b additive manufacturing services.
The business next door to me has a UPS truck turn up at 5pm, every day, to ship their next-day orders out.
Unless they're a very big business and can negotiate collection times (becuase you can fill a full fan for instance) then you are at the beck and call of whenever the courier happens to collect from you. Times tend to be very consistent so for example we have UPS collect around 2.30, DHL and Parcel Force tend to be late morning, DPD around 2pm, Royal Mail collect around 3.30pm. We have no control over what those times are and I imagine it's just coincidental that the business next to yours has UPS collect at 5.
All of which you can probably get online far quicker!
Just seems like bank branches, something from a previous generation which has no place in the modern world.
No place in YOUR modern world perhaps, but millions still need and rely on post offices for myriad reasons.
Post offices are more important than pubs.
My mum, until she died, was completely reliant on local post office services to take out cash, pay bills, send letters etc. She wasn't able to access online services. When they closed her local bank branch, she became unable to access their services, so I had to step in and sort things out for her. This affected her independence, and made her unhappy.
Sometimes, it's a good idea to step out of your own bubble and think about other people. And how things affect THEM.
Post offices aren't Royal Mail so not the same thing.
There's a lot more to Royal Mail than Post People, my guess is a lot of the jobs will go from support services and sorting / transport operations.
Seems like more paid out in dividends than in investment.
You are having a laugh, there's been loads of investment into the back end of the Post Office to automate, the unions constantly block it, the problem is not investment or lack of it, it's the fact automation and investment means fewer jobs. I'd hazard a guess that a lot of the jobs at risk now should have already gone with the modernisation put in place but the unions will have blocked it. The worsening financial situation ahs forced the Post Office to face the unions down.
So combine a falling business model with uncooperative unions and the future is bleak. Nothing to do with privatisation, asset stripping or lack of investment.
So combine a falling business model with uncooperative unions and the future is bleak. Nothing to do with privatisation, asset stripping or lack of investment.
'Uncooperative unions'. You know that the union's job is to represent its members, don't you? Who are justifiably worried about losing their jobs. Since 'modernisation' seems to be shorthand for 'reducing the workforce and making the remaining workers work even harder', then all power to them for standing up to 'progress'. I'm sure the tories would much prefer a completely union-free workforce to use as they wish, but let's at least try and prevent the slide towards such a shit world, just for a while.
My local Sainsbury's has 'modernised' by laying off 2/3rds of it's workforce and going to self-service checkouts. This has led to much longer queues, myriad problems with items not scanning properly, a huge increse in theft/attempted theft, and a thoroughly miserable workforce. Great.
Still; as long as the shareholders are happy, that's all that matters.
But there are no alternatives for drop off at 5pm, deliver next day which we need for our b2b additive manufacturing services. Delivery will now take as long as production.
Well there are depends where you are relative to your depot. UPS, DHL, APC (The three we use) will all accept stuff up to around 6pm dropped off for next day delivery.
‘Uncooperative unions’. You know that the union’s job is to represent its members, don’t you? Who are justifiably worried about losing their jobs.
Straight outta the Tory playbook. Blame the unions, blame the workers. Never blame the bosses. Never blame the profiteers. Never blame greed.
Problem is, there is no scenario without job losses. The demand for their service is falling. Becoming more efficient and employing less people is inevitable or they just got bust at some point (which may happen anyway).
I worked as a postie in a NW urban area from 2019 through Covid until sacking it off this time last year: threw my ID badge in the office manager's face, suggested he find somewhere appropriate to stick it and walked out, three days into my month's notice....
Hopeless company: the executive should've been fired en masse after the shambles of late 20/early 21, and the delivery office level management are mainly posties promoted beyond their level of competence. Add in a sicknote culture workforce, many of whom date back to when it was a state owned business (with attitudes to match), and it's got no chance.
I had an ebay sale to send out today, first class. I just tried to sort out paying for it online through the RM website (ebay wasn't offering the right option for insurance). Utterly utterly bobbins setup and system. Not mobile friendly. Meaningless terminology. Compared to evri or parcel2go or anyone, really, it was a waste of my time.
In the end I went to the post office and paid over the odds for a quick delivery. Even the postmaster said chances are it won't be there till monday. I'm happy to support the PO, and our posties are nice, friendly and very helpful people, but that company is a lame duck.
Edit to say that even the govt don't use RM for stuff - passports are delivered by another setup for example. So I think the writing is on the wall.
Problem is, there is no scenario without job losses.
Isn't it therefore a good idea to look at options where as many people as possible can retain employment? Why has the PO/RM failed to adapt like other businesses? The bosses have surely been paid enough to come up with some ideas, no? As for demand falling:
There's a potential solution right there. Why has there been no significant investment in such a service? The PO could be cornering the market here. As montgomery above alludes to; the problem isn't a 'lack of demand', or the need to 'modernise', it's because the PO has been mismanaged for decades, and left to rot. Managed decline.
even the govt don’t use RM for stuff – passports are delivered by another setup for example
That's because it's a security issue.
They have recently improved, and the parcel collection is a great addition. I have no problems using RM for all my posting needs. The other companies are all a bit variable and useless mostly - and impossible to contact when there's a problem.
But it's very rare that I get letters that are not legal items (tax, contracts etc), so I can't really see how they support themselves other than spam delivery.
Do I want next day post? Yes, it's very useful and there are many areas where it helps rapid development of products etc. There's no reason why we'd go back in time, and I don't think the speed of delivery is what drives the cost. But this is another problem with critical services being privatised. There's a dozen mediocre services, instead of one good cheap one. The solution to poorly performing public entities is not privatisation, it's running them properly.
In the end I went to the post office and paid over the odds for a quick delivery. Even the postmaster said chances are it won’t be there till monday.
You didn't pay over the odds - you paid for a face to face service to get the correct postage etc
Isn’t it therefore a good idea to look at options where as many people as possible can retain employment?
Employees are mostly the source of most inefficiencies
Why has the PO/RM failed to adapt like other businesses?
They're trying to but the unions are not happy (no surprise there)
The bosses have surely been paid enough to come up with some ideas, no?
They have, but see the above.
Employees are mostly the source of most inefficiencies
So; a world where everything is done by robots, that's the answer?
They’re trying to but the unions are not happy (no surprise there)
Why do you think the unions are unhappy?
They have, but see the above.
Have they? Doesn't seem so, if they're 'going bust'...
Re the Sainsbury's example: We, the customers, are now doing our own scanning work. Thus no more need for checkout staff. So why haven't prices come down to reflect this 'modernisation'? Surely Sainsbury's must be saving a fortune in wages.
a world where everything is done by robots, that’s the answer?
For a number of jobs.... yes. It's more efficient, cheaper (and we all want stuff to be cheaper) and better quality.
Have they? Doesn’t seem so, if they’re ‘going bust’
Ummm..... this is why they want to be more efficient.
We, the customers, are now doing our own scanning work.
Some are - I always do - you're not forced to do it.
But why wait in a queue of people with trolleys just to buy 4 things? There aren't any petrol pump attendants any more - are you complaining about that also?
Thus no more need for checkout staff.
Not everybody wants to do self-checkout so some tills are still manned - this is unlikely to change.
So why haven’t prices come down to reflect this ‘modernisation’?
They kinda have. What's happened is that the cost savings/efficiencies have allowed prices to be kept down.
Surely Sainsbury’s must be saving a fortune in wages.
There will be savings, but there will also be costs incurred for the self-checkout facilities. Overall it will save money (see above) and make the experience better for those that want to use it.
Surely Sainsbury’s must be saving a fortune in wages.
Any savings will be dwarfed by price rises in energy and food costs.
Plus, as all supermarkets (or most of the big ones) are doing the same, any cost savings are taken up keeping prices down to compete.
Why do you think the unions are unhappy?
They are representing workers in an industry in decline where the only answer is less jobs for their representatives...
You didn’t pay over the odds – you paid for a face to face service to get the correct postage etc
£4.85 online via the RM website. £8.95 (ish) from the PO.
Took about 30seconds.
So no, I didn't pay extra for to get the correct postage, I already knew what it was. But the RM website was an utter horror show. I hope the PO make the difference.
‘Uncooperative unions’. You know that the union’s job is to represent its members, don’t you?
Absolutely, it's a shame a lot of unions don't get this. In this scenario looking after their members means making sure there is a sustainable business there for those that continue to have jobs, ensuring working conditions and are reasonable. For those that are going to inevitably lose their jobs the unions role is their to make sure it's done legally and preferably with as much support an compassion as possible. That may mean enhanced payouts, extended notice periods, support with retraining and searching for new roles.
Not accepting the inevitable only accelerates what's coming and making it a lot harder. Did the union movement learn nothing from Scargill's destructive rampage in the 80s. Mining was going to die anyway, the UK was not very efficient either. Mining communities were ripped apart and pits closed a lot sooner than they may have done otherwise robbing the communities of the time to adjust to new realities. He played the big man, took Thatcher on and lost, or at least the people he represented did. The postal workers are in a similar position although instead of arguing with a PM they are denying the realities of the business landscape they have even less control over. Accelerating the destruction of their industry is not looking out for the members interests.
The bit Im struggling with is if the RM made such a big loss that they need to make redundancies how come they were able to give the shareholders £400m in dividends and the CEO a £140k bonus for delivering such appalling results. I presume in RM / Government circles thats the unions fault too
such a big loss that they need to make redundancies how come they were able to give the shareholders £400m
Cos that's how business works, no shareholders, no business (and incidental all our pensions). Even if the business isn't making a loss it wouldn't keep on people it doesn't need, if the investment and automation has removed jobs you don't keep paying the people you don't need, it's not a job creation scheme.
As for the CEO, they must have hit what ever targets they were given and the shareholders must be happy with what they or doing otherwise they'd be replaced.
For a number of jobs…. yes. It’s more efficient, cheaper (and we all want stuff to be cheaper) and better quality.
Please give examples.
Some are – I always do – you’re not forced to do it.
But why wait in a queue of people with trolleys just to buy 4 things? There aren’t any petrol pump attendants any more – are you complaining about that also?
My local Sainsbury's have moved to all self service tills except the cigarette counter, where it's 5 items or less. So if you have a trolley full, you have to stand in line anyway. Not all the SS tills work, they are frequently out of order. Queues are now much longer than before. Any problems, and there's just one member of staff having to deal with all customers. We had to wait nearly 10 minutes on our last visit, because that staff member was having to deal with several other customers with issues, and all we needed was for her to verify our alcohol purchases. You have to place every single item on a bagging area (which I presume checks weight), and can't start actually bagging anything up until all items have been scanned. So what used to be a 10 minute wait max, from joining the queue for a till to walking out will all purchases bagged up, actually took around 25 minutes. Please explain how that's 'more efficient'. Also; please explain how this system helps those who are sight impaired, have learning difficulties or just can't use the technology.
They kinda have. What’s happened is that the cost savings/efficiencies have allowed prices to be kept down.
There will be savings, but there will also be costs incurred for the self-checkout facilities. Overall it will save money (see above) and make the experience better for those that want to use it.
Any savings will be dwarfed by price rises in energy and food costs.
Plus, as all supermarkets (or most of the big ones) are doing the same, any cost savings are taken up keeping prices down to compete.
But prices are actually rising. And the experience for customers is generally worse. I can't imagine what it's like for staff, but thankfully I am lucky enough not to have to work there.
But for those apologists of tory policy/anti-unionists, there's something you seem to be unaware of/have ignored, and that is the impact to our society. So if people lose their jobs, how will they pay their mortgages, feed their families etc? How will they buy goods in order for the economy to keep moving? If increasing numbers of people become unemployed and reliant on benefits, who foots that bill? Where does that money come from? Shareholders?
Cost of everything; value of nothing...
Did the union movement learn nothing from Scargill’s destructive rampage in the 80s... He played the big man, took Thatcher on and lost, or at least the people he represented did... Accelerating the destruction of their industry is not looking out for the members interests.
It's an amusing viewpoint. Revisionist bollocks lifted straight from tory propaganda, but amusing nonetheless. So Scargill was to blame for the destruction of many mining communities, rather than Thatcher's ideological hatred of working classes and in particular Labour voters (plus her desire to help further enrich the already wealthy ruling elites) ? So unions are to blame for the decline of industries, rather than the exploitation of cheap foreign resources and labour (in countries with often appalling human rights records)? How funny.
You were joking, right?
The solution to poorly performing public entities is not privatisation, it’s running them properly.
Amen.
RM have told the CWU today during long overdue talks that it will be taking new entrants in on 20% less conditions and will be using owner drivers.