[Closed] Roof underlay failed within 3 years!

Sounds like a good time to get another opinion - I fail to see this being the case.

You have insurance right?

Our roof has no underfelt and doesn't leak, is yours a pitched tiled roof?
What is the angle of pitch and what caused the leak?

Sounds like a good time to get another opinion – I fail to see this being the case.

You have insurance right?

This, and that.

Our roof has no underfelt and doesn’t leak, is yours a pitched tiled roof?
What is the angle of pitch and what caused the leak?

This...... The underlay is a vapour barrier rather than the bit that keeps you dry.

We have home insurance but I don’t believe it will cover us for something like this.

Yes it’s a pitched, tiled roof. He showed me the felt with the tiles off and it’s worn through either side of the vertical wooden beams. Big holes either side.

He also found where the builder had put duct tape on previously in another area. Probably to fix a rip when installing.

As above - the felt isn't really the bit that keeps the rain out. There must be an issue with tiles or flashing somewhere?

It shouldn't leak even if the underlay is completely missing so, sorry to say, you have more problems than just the underlay. It also sounds as if the tiles have been fixed in a way that caused the underlay to wear, which shouldn't happen.

What does the Architect's Certificate certify? You may have a claim against the Architect.

I would be getting into the loft space and having a good look around. It might be just one area that needs sorting rather than the hole roof.

the hole roof.

What you did there is obvious 🙂

🤣

I guess that's the thing - I'm not completely convinced he actually fixed anything other than patching the holes in the underlay - so the issue is probably still there.

If I wanted to get a second opinion, how do you guys normally go about finding someone who you trust to give you an honest appraisal?

I get my ladders out, it's roofing not brain surgery.
Failing that get a recommendation from someone you know.

I would very much disregard the advice you’ve been given as it makes no sense. Start again and find another roofer. You may as well take lucky dip and look on checkatrade or similar and try again. The majority of roofers, like other humans, are decent but this one has obviously lied through his teeth. The felt may have failed, but it’s irrelevant as it is not responsible for keeping the water out. He’s tried to sell you a full re-roof for no good reason. Try 2 or 3 more quotes from anyone and I’m sure you’ll get a better answer.

It’s quite likely there’s a l

Where are you OP? Someone may be local and have a recommendation for a roofer/builder 👍

Norwich

I'm a builder and I'll just repeat what has been said all ready.
The felt shouldn't really have any water touch it, if there is then you have a problem else where, possibly slipped l/cracked tiles, damaged or missing flashing, many other things.
You say it's a pitch roof? The main house roof? Or over a garage, extension? Is it a double or just a single pitch?
If single pitch, the angle may be too shallow and wind pushing water up under the tiles.

What area are you in? I know several trust able roofers

NHBC?

Heres a pic showing the pitch of the roof, and another showing a small bit of the damage. Although now I look at it, it seems the felt could have been damaged by sliding the tiles up and against the beams?

Ianar but...
There are specific angles roofs should conform to for given geographical areas
High rainfall areas with exposure need steeper roofs and possibly a greater overlap of tiles
Take it this is a trussed roof with batterns and every 4 or 5th row tacked to a batern?
Can you see where the ingress is? There shouldn't be any movement to wear sarking felt at all, let alone 3 years.
Checked gutters lead flashing etc as the water will find acwsy that might be some distance from where it pops down to say hello

What's going on with the varying tile overlap in that picture? Some of it looks marginal at best

It is a slightly complex roof. I would be looking around the dormers, particularly the flashings and any valleys. The pitch looks quite steep, so I wouldn't expect the lap of tiles to be an issue unless the location is very exposed to high winds. BTW the edges of the tiles bottom right in your lower pic look damaged?

The tile overlap is where some of them have been pushed back for inspection.

If you right-click / 'open in new tab' on those photos, you can zoom in for a better look.

@jim25 Do you know any servicing East Lancashire? I've no immediate need of a roofer but I've been through a few over the years and am yet to find a reliable one so it'd be handy for future reference.

To work out where the water is getting in it sometimes helps to put a hosepipe on the roof and watch where the water goes. If the tiles are laid at the correct overlap (you can probably find the spec on the makers website) then flashings or gutters spilling water badly is a common cause.

My other top tip is to get a roofer not a builder to do a roof. We're currently in the process of getting our extension reroofed as the builder who did it used a very low angle with standard slates and felt (not a problem you have there). Extension is about 12 years old and now leaks with every rainstorm. Lead work is not to roofing standard, flashings round veluxs wrong etc. Now got an expensive bill and no recourse so I feel your pain.
One roofer quoted for our job then declined to do it as he is a one man band and a largish job. The company now contracted had photos of 3 similar low angled rooves they'd quoted for in the last couple of months that builders had messed up. Sorry I can't recommend them as they are based in Redcar, a long way from you. Try a medium to large size firm and at least you know what the contract rate is even if you get someone else in.

Um, isn't the vapour barrier/felt insulation there to prevent warm/moist internal air from condensing against the cold roof tiles?

e.g. the failure/absence of either could result in condensation forming internally and giving the appearance of a leak?

The felt has rotted due to exposure of water. The root cause of the problem is water leaking from the roof or as others have said the flashing/valleys. I'd also guess its probably been an issue from new. If the house is a new build and only 3 years it should be covered by NHBC if not home insurance. It's exactly the type of thing insurance is for.

I'd definitely get a few opinions.

With modern breathable felts in my opinion counter battening is King, the gauge on those tiles looks dodgy af.

Um, isn’t the vapour barrier/felt insulation there to prevent warm/moist internal air from condensing against the cold roof tiles?

Surely that's the job of the insulation within.. depending on if your roofs a warm or cold space.

No felt or membrane on the main building or the first extension. Yet we had to fit it when we built our extension of the original extension.....

Why mention Nhbc when if you read the earlier post it was the architect who certified the house
Same with trusted traders sites they are a minefield, word of mouth roofers that only do roofs not cleaning gutter or sandstone repairs or hedges cut to a high standard etc

I'd be looking (amongst other things) at the flashing under the dormer window sills, appears to lack an upstand to facilitate proper apron flashing, I would expect it may be vulnerable to wind-driven rain.

Have checked with home insurance and it won't cover this - so that option is out. Only others available are:

1) Developer puts right - with or without pressure from legal intervention
2) Claim on Architects Certificate - but I'm not sure it covers latent defects
3) Pay for it ourselves

I've got a recommended roofer (not builder) coming out Wednesday to take a look. He said the underlay used isn't great stuff, and that it looks like it's been leaking a fair while to be in that state already.

Why mention Nhbc when if you read the earlier post it was the architect who certified the house

NHBC offers new build warranties as well as building regs certification.

1) Developer puts right – with or without pressure from legal intervention
2) Claim on Architects Certificate – but I’m not sure it covers latent defects

This is what I do as a job. If you can get an independent expert to give an opinion on the roof I would use that to claim against the builder. Architects’ certs are much more difficult to claim under.

That's not rotten "felt", it's synthetic. I'd wager its damaged from foot traffic during the build.

Don't you get a warranty on new builds in the UK.

I'd be looking at both lead valley construction and were the water flows, you'll get lots of water flowing down there.

I’d wager its damaged from foot traffic during the build.

Funnily enough, my best mate who's a builder said exactly the same thing.

Roofer of 20+ years. It’s been said but that definitely looks like it’s been caused when loading the roof. Not mineral 1F felt which is why is suspected looking at the thread title, and while that’s not Tyvek, it is a modern felt so unlikely to ‘rot’. I would be talking to the builder to seek recourse.

Ok random out there thought, I’ve worked out why my garage is leaking. It’s the lead flashing which is regularly getting attacked by effing magpies, and they damaged it enough for the rain to start getting in.

Could be something random rather than a fault with the build

Looks like the tiles are Redland Grovebury.

How did the 2nd down tile on the right get damaged?

How did the 3rd down tile on the right get in that position?

I would say that a lot of water has been getting under there looking at the condition of the battens.

As others have said, its the tiles that make the roof waterproof, not the sheeting.

My parents 1930's house has Kent Pegs, with no sheeting fitted, and never a drop of water in.

Roofer of 20+ years.

If you are in East Lancs you'll have a couple of customers

If you are in East Lancs you’ll have a couple of customers

Hiya.

(I didn't realise / forgot you were local, where are you?)

Currently getting fat in Cowpe

Huh. You're nine miles away and I had to Google "Cowpe."

If you can hear banjos, you are close

is that not where they have stacked the tiles up during building?

Sorry, in Cambridgeshire. That felt damage is definitely not rot though. Basically when you load (bump) a roof you would usually walk the tiles on your shoulder up the felt and battens placing them at locations over the roof span so that when you come to lay it in there are enough in the locations you need them to be. This damage was caused by the person/a loading the roof using the gap between the dormers to gain access to the upper slopes. You walk on the sections where the battens are nailed to the joists, but as the felt is usually quite tight between joists, any heavy footed or clumsy foot placement can result in felt damage. The rubbing that you can see on the felt illustrates that this was used as a main thoroughfare, which in turn weakens the felt resulting in failure over the (relatively) sharp edge of the rafter. It sounds like the builder/roofer made a felt repair in another location with duct tape. It would be possible to do the same here, but my suggested remedy would be to find all of the areas where the felt is damaged, hopefully with access to the loft. Strip out those sections and put sections of new felt over the damage, lapping onto the section below and under the section above. This should be under the battens which will need taking off in sections (or cut at an appropriate place) and putting back after the repair. This should solve any secondary water ingress and be a lot cheaper that a whole roof repair! I would budget for 2 x roofers for 1-2 days subject to the extent of the damage, so £400-800 plus materials. If the builder/roofer doesn’t want to carry out this work, then I would find a local alternative contractor and agree for the work to be done and recharged to the builder as it amounts to leaving a job unfinished/not fit for purpose.

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DT78
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Ok random out there thought, I’ve worked out why my garage is leaking. It’s the lead flashing which is regularly getting attacked by effing magpies, and they damaged it enough for the rain to start getting in.

Any pictures, lead worker by trade

@palmer77 Thank you for your detailed response - that's pretty much the conclusion I've come to. A recommended roofer is coming out tomorrow to assess the damage. When I showed him the pictures he pretty much said exactly the same as you. He said the underlay isn't the best, but a whole roof strip and replace was excessive.

As of yet I've had no response from the developer. So I'm guessing I may have to get my solicitor to send him a letter - then wait for him. Could take a while to get sorted. Not great timing with winter on the door step.

The other thing to check on that style of roof would be the dormer apex’s, and valley feet. If full lead valleys, then these should be cut and welded around the change of angle. If fibreglass sections, they’ll likely have a lead saddle. The issue with the latter is that often these are thrown in by unskilled trades and have very little effectiveness. If the area is especially windy you could get water driven up between the dormers and into any potential weak sections such as these. Worth checking against the side of the dormers too, standard flashing detail for these tiles would be 300mm cover flashing, bent 150 x 150 and affixed to the dormer and dressed into the surface of the tile. In my view this detail is never as good as individual soakers, but it is standard practice. If any of the dims are compromised though it could lead to water ingress. Always worth remembering that most leaks will start above where the water finally makes its way into the building.