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Trying to help an aged neighbour who has had 2 toasters and a stick blender stop working in the last few months. I have checked the appliance fuses and they are fine, the appliances just don't work.
It seems to point to the same rogue socket that they were all originally plugged into. The cupboard below does smell a bit damp, but the breaker / rcd in the fusebox has never tripped
Any ideas ?
I'd open up the socket and have a look (if you're happy doing that).
Switch off the fuse first but DON'T assume that means it's not still live!
Just because it's a ground floor socket doesn't mean it's actually wired to the ground floor ring main, could be tapped off the upstairs lighting circuit for all you know 😉
When you say ‘seems to point’ to the socket and that the appliances ‘just don’t work’ ….. you’ve plugged them into another socket and demonstrated that they actually do work I take it. (And you’ve plugged things that you know work into the suspect socket too)
Where mains tester plugs are really handy, I've got these two...
https://www.screwfix.com/p/kewtech-kewcheck-103-13a-socket-tester-230v-ac/45558
https://www.screwfix.com/p/kewtech-loopcheck-107-13a-advanced-socket-tester-230v-ac/4670j
Yup, those plugs are brilliant wee things. The cheap LAP ones in Toolstation are just as good.
Yup, those plugs are brilliant wee things.
The best bit is their alarm which sounds when they are live, can leave it plugged in as an early warning alarm in case something goes live when I'm working on it. Plus I have switched the wrong circuit off and then wondered why my arm is shaking whilst working on a ceiling rose...
The cheap LAP ones in Toolstation are just as good.
I paid a lot less than the Screwfix price on the 2nd one!
singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/rogue-electrical-socket-stw-electricians/#post-12162002
To clarify, those appliances that have been in the rogue socket now don't work anywhere, even with good fuses fitted to them.
The rogue socket is definitely live, other appliances do work in it, but I have only run things for a very short time.
Looks like the socket tester is a good first step.
Just because it’s a ground floor socket doesn’t mean it’s actually wired to the ground floor ring main, could be tapped off the upstairs lighting circuit for all you know 😉
Yup. I have a ground floor socket in my living room that is on the upstairs circuit, which then spurs off to the garage. Oh, that socket is then spurred off to 2 further garage sockets.
Spurs off a spur is a no, I'm sure but it's been like that since we moved in 11 years ago. I'd love to get a full rewire and sort lots of stuff out but funds do not permit
I had a dodgy socket in the kitchen just after having it rewired. Maybe 1 in 20 times it would trip the RCD for that circuit when you switched the socket on.
swapped it for a new panel and not had a problem since.
I’d love to get a full rewire and sort lots of stuff out but funds do not permit
I've just done it room by room whenever we redecorate I sort out all the sockets etc, or whenever I have floorboards up I figure out where everthing goes and label it all for future reference....
Not unusual for wires to pop out when you open a socket, especially if it's old or a bit crowded.
Amusingly some years ago I was called out to investigate why a fused spur off a socket wasn't working.
I'd pulled the ring main fuses. Was poking around at the wiring and the client turned a light off. The wire I was touching went live giving me a bit of a shock, especially as I was leaning on the immersion tank at the time.
Some **** had picked up a feed off of one of the strappers on the 2way landing lights.
So yeah switch it all off and assume nothing.
Strange, I would expect the RCD to trip if it was a fault. Try and see what's wrong with the appliances might give you a clue. Checking for leakage as per above sounds like an idea - could be a current on the earth maybe?
Strange, I would expect the RCD to trip if it was a fault
Assuming that socket is on an RCD, might be on a lighting circuit (which used to not be installed with RCDs), plus they can deteriorate esp if you reset them whilst a fault is happening.
Stripped out a mates upstairs back to brick and joists (to replaater and put sound insulation in) double/triple checked all the electric was off before touching the wiring. Still got a shock. It was piggy backed through the wall from neighbour. Get a tester.
I would expect a socket to be on a ring (with other sockets) back to the Consumer Unit! Lighting circuits have lighter gauge cable!
You know what they say about assumption…
Assuming the fuse/circuit breaker/RCD isn't tripping, I'll bet a penny to a pound that there's a poor/loose connection on that socket. This causes arcing and hence heat. The heat travels into the plug through the brass pins and causes an issue in the plug, sometimes affecting the (usually smaller) appliance flex conductors and melting the insulation.
Take the plug apart and check for signs of heat damage. If this is the reason you'll also see signs of heat damage on the socket, sometimes on the front but definitely behind.
For some reason, ~80% of the time it's the neutral that's loose.
Also common on extension leads too.
Note, neither a cb or an rcd will detect an arcing cable. For that you need an Arc Fault Detection Device (AFDD) but they're quite a recent thing.
Strange, I would expect the RCD to trip if it was a fault
Every chance it's still got rewirable fuses. Particularly older folks houses.
Yup. I have a ground floor socket in my living room that is on the upstairs circuit, which then spurs off to the garage. Oh, that socket is then spurred off to 2 further garage sockets.
Could be a radial circuit, whats the mcb rated at?
Could be a radial circuit, whats the mcb rated at?
It was too high a fuse in the board as I recall. We had an upstairs socket that was arcing and tripped everything - we also have an old style main board, 80s house. When the electrician came and sorted that one, along with the comment "looks like a 3 year old could have done a better job", they put a smaller rated fuse on that circuit.
Check the plugs for damage, replace if necessary. To be honest sounds like a streak of bad luck / user error. Toasters in particular are generally not complicated bits of kit and are designed to take a bit if heat.
Wall sockets are also pretty simple, only thing that can really go wrong is a loose connection, they will supply whatever the attached device will draw.
The appliances that don't work - has the fuse gone in the socket plug?
Check the plugs for damage, replace if necessary. To be honest sounds like a streak of bad luck / user error. Toasters in particular are generally not complicated bits of kit and are designed to take a bit if heat.
Wall sockets are also pretty simple, only thing that can really go wrong is a loose connection, they will supply whatever the attached device will draw.
This was my thought really - I can see how a socket can 'not work' as in it can fail to provide any power but the scenarios in which a socket can break an item you plug into it must be pretty rare. Something is fundamentally wrong if thats what's really happening and it seems to require more than an internet guessing game to resolve it.
Its not clear from the OP whether the appliances dont work even with a new fuse or whether the appliances failed without blowing the fuse. He says he's put new fuses in but not whether he tested the original ones. We're looking at the socket as the common factor - the common factor might be the toasters and blender were just poor quality.
With all that in mind though.... For the OP - you're not an electrician but you're seeking advice to undertake electrical work in someone else's house. Have a think about your liabilities if anything went wrong. Fiddling about with the supply in your own house is one thing, in other people's its something else. The best help you can maybe be to your elderly neighbour is help them find a qualified electrician,
As well as the socket tester, there's a really useful little LAP tester to see if current is running through a circuit. It's not accurate enough to isolate exactly which cable if there's a group together, more expensive ones would work better for that, but it's been really useful to me for wiring things up, finding faults or double checking you're not about to zap yourself.
EDIT - I bought the socket tester and little pen tester thing for about £12 combined from screwfix a few months back - offer is still on https://www.screwfix.com/p/lap-ac-non-contact-voltage-detector-pen-1000v-ac/3222g
It’s not accurate enough to isolate exactly which cable if there’s a group together
My cheap (but old) non contact voltage tester has a sensitivity adjuster slide on it - it's good enough that you can see which side of a T&E cable has the 'live' run to the switch and which doesn't. As a final test before you touch any cable they're a literal life saver.
Just because it’s a ground floor socket doesn’t mean it’s actually wired to the ground floor ring main, could be tapped off the upstairs lighting circuit for all you know 😉
We recently had a smart meter fitted. Guy came, switched everything off...except my wifi still worked (plugged into a socket in the hallway). He couldn't figure out where it was getting power from as the meter itself was disconnected!
Is anyone offering advice actually an electrician?
Is anyone offering advice actually an electrician?
Yes, me.
Thanks for all the input, some possibilities there.
Here is the result.
I have used one of those LAPP testers in the socket, and it gives the 3 lit LEDs which means "Normal". The tester would have told me if there was No neutral, and other faults.
I would have been happy to check the neutral connection in the socket if that had been the fault, but I have done what I can, and never intended to get further into the house wiring.
So have wrapped up now with a suggestion that they get in a qualified electrician if they are still concerned.
Happy Christmas everyone.
We recently had a smart meter fitted. Guy came, switched everything off…except my wifi still worked (plugged into a socket in the hallway). He couldn’t figure out where it was getting power from as the meter itself was disconnected!
Winner winner!
We recently had a smart meter fitted. Guy came, switched everything off…except my wifi still worked (plugged into a socket in the hallway). He couldn’t figure out where it was getting power from as the meter itself was disconnected!
Winner winner!
Well I know where my electric heater would be plugged into from now on.....
Is anyone offering advice actually an electrician?
15th edition, well out of date but you get what you pay for.
We recently had a smart meter fitted. Guy came, switched everything off…except my wifi still worked (plugged into a socket in the hallway). He couldn’t figure out where it was getting power from as the meter itself was disconnected!
My dad was an electrician in the late 50's. He went to some some work at a factory unit in Manchester and couldn't find the meter and fuse board to isolate the power. Eventually he traced everything back as being fed from the much bigger adjacent factory. They'd been running of someone else's power for years.
I went to a house in Oxford not too long ago that was being totally refurbed, very nice house in a very nice area. They'd totally isolated the whole house to rip everything out, and one double socket in the lounge stayed live. They took the front off and realised it was fed from next door. The builder plugged the kettle into it and the 110v transformers for site lights, tools etc were running off it. Not sure if they ever 'fessed up to the neighbours!
One of the first things I did in the house was to go round every socket and figure out which fuse isolated it and then write that number on the socket. The only anomoly I can recall was the CH controls in the upstairs airing cupboard were on the downstairs ring main, but then the boiler they control is downstairs, so it sort of makes sense...