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You didn't answer the question. If these things are secret how do you know? Awake isn't an answer.
@edukator yes there were people that did that. So what? They are not, and never were representative of every single remainer as you claimed. If you're trying to insult us just so we don't try to get back into your club I wouldn't waste your time. We know you're in there and despite that we still want back in. Time for you to make peace with that, shit happens.
The result is that NI is in a very favourable position which won’t be extended to the rest of the UK...
Perhaps you would like to tell the DUP that, so that they can thank their lucky stars, knuckle down, and elect a Speaker to open Stormont.
Crisis? What crisis?
Rabid. Dogs.
never were representative of every single remainer as you claimed.
I said "many remainers" read back it's at the top of the last page. Play fair.
Morpheus voted Leave.
So wrong. How could anyone be so blind as to believe that?
He voted for upholding human rights that were being eroded and for everyone living together in harmony.
That’s pro-remain.
To say otherwise raises questions about the rest of your agenda.
More seriously, @edukator, I think you have a point on the overall level of enthusiasm at times, but I don’t think that’s a particular issue in that sense.
It’s difficult to get overly enthusiastic about a form of economic and political structuring, and I’d worry about those who get overly enthused in either direction (that may include me).
All economic and political structures are compromises between freedoms and rights and economic security, etc. Sometimes even between one freedom and another because they are mutually exclusive.
So someone expressing it as the best compromise in the situation is not concerning. And if after the vote further events solidified that view, that too seems reasonable.
So yes, I take your point, but I would argue at some level it’s really moot.
I don't have much contact with people in the UK. However when anything significant happens in the world it's interesting to see what all those old friends and aquaintances with whom I've lost real life contact are contributing to Facebook. They fall into three geographical regions, the Midlands, West Wales and Devon.
The reactions to the vote in 2016 were fascinating, and there wasn't the remain majority we saw on STW. The Midlanders in particular are pretty Brexity, some enthusiastically so, and the remainers pragmatic but not very enthusiastic about the EU. The only really enthusistic remainers were the Devon crowd whohave tourism businesses and make full use of freedom of movement.
The latest polls:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-rejoin-poll-b2212730.html
show there's more and more enthusiam for rejoining but still the two biggest parties won't hear of it. Starmer's declation last week that he wouldn't rejoin confirmed him as the most useless oppostion leader since the last one. I asume he doesn't think there's enough enthusiam for rejoining amonst his potential electorate for it to be a vote winner. Perhaps if he were to get enthusiatic about the EU and present it the right way it could be th evote winner he needs. Starmer is a major headwind to rejoining.
Devon was pretty Brexity overall too.
Scotland, NI and the major cities were the remain / four freedoms tendency areas.
Interestingly initially the support for rejoin was far lower than for we shouldn’t have left / remain. Given where rejoin is now, the hidden support for the non-question of remain is probably well into the 60% range - but we’ll never know.
Given the variations in reporting I'm note sure exactly what the question that yielded 57/43 result was. Compare:
The UK accepting that Brexit was a damaging mistake doesn’t move us any closer to rejoining. We are not rejoining for decades, if at all. A partner country joining in CU, SM and FoM is a possible future… the UK will not be a full member again in our lifetimes.
Edukator - Im in Scotland. Everyone of my friendship group are enthusiastic remainers bar one reluctant and one leaver giving 30 or so enthusiastic remainers. the "many remainers" does not match my experience
Yes but it would if you used a really small sample of people spread across three small geographic areas, silly.
So yes, we're now supposed to accept that the motivations of "most remainers" are represented by a statistically insignificant number of people in Eds Facebook friends list that he admittedly doesn't have much contact with anyway.
This is perhaps why you're still friends with them, TJ. 🙂 Did you get to the Black Country on your UK tour. 😉 I heard a little too much about immigrants (I'm an immigrant) from some who I've stopped replying to.
I understand that the mood in Scotland is different as the referendum result and polls demostrate. I'm looking at the UK electorate as a whole when I say that voters need to find some genuine enthusiam for the EU project rather than "project fear" was right, and would appreciate those north of the border reading my posts with that in mind and perhaps not taking things so personally.
None of my comments on attitudes has been directly aimed at Squirrelking but he has contrived to take them that way and make some insulting replies directly aimed at me (as usual).
You didn't need to add "silly", Squirelking, it's just gratuitous insult.
You love anecdotal local stuff but object to others using anecdote. Play fair, you're just here to insult me as on every thread we share space on. Other people can read and understand you know, they can see who is being reasonable and apart from your local mates (who aren't on the thread so I won't name) you don't seem to have anyone with you.
Remember that “project fear” was a Brexy construct that most remainers didn’t really recognise. I.e. Brexies said that remainers said something negative and fear-mongering - remainers had said nothing of the sort of course, but the argument had moved on by the time they were saying it.
A bit of honesty that tearing up your trading arrangements with your biggest trading partner was unlikely to be a good thing is neither negative nor fear.
Better defined as common sense, but the Brexies didn’t like referring to it as “Project Common Sense”.
I don't want to get into a debate about "most", or "every single" but project fear was a term used by both prominent Brexies and remainers:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Fear
There were many things it could have been called "Project Common Sense" as you suggest. See also "reality check", "not shooting yourself in the foot"," not cutting off your nose to spite your face". Somehow it was "project fear" that stuck. And you ask people if they're afraid of something the answer is often "no". "You go mountain biking, arnen't you afraid of getting hurt?" Nah
It was part of the psychological game, a game remain played rather poorly. Which brings me back to my original point, that remain failed to be enthusiastic about the EU and what it had done for the UK/UK citizens and relied on drab messaging. 
^^^that is drab message, when politicians say 'we guarantee'. You just know It's not happening.
What remainers used the term "Project Fear"? Apart from responding to Leavers trying to rubbish their arguments?
It wasn't happening !
On "workers' rights protected" my first thoughts were "zero hours contracts, hire and fire culture, working people to burnout - they're taking piss". The hypocrisy of Cameron defending the EU on issues the Tory party was at odds with Europe on must have had some people doubting his sincerity, me for one.
"Special status in Europe", how so? The UK is just a member of a union, nothing special. In fact all the opt outs mean the position is/was anything but special. Now Belgium could claim a special position: a load of European insititutions, European infrastrure, a few million people from two cultures who don't even like each other punching way beyond their weight in terms of influence.
I don’t want to get into a debate about “most”, or “every single” but project fear was a term used by both prominent Brexies and remainers:
Doesn’t that link say what I said? (Apart from the John McDonnell quote which is basically indecipherable.)
Apart from responding to Leavers trying to rubbish their arguments?
Which was what they spent their air time doing rather than selling the EU. How was Cameron supposed to sell an institution way to the left of his own party to the Tory faithful? All those things that are great about the EU for us plebs; for example limiting the excesses of the corruption, money laundering, damaging dergulation, monopolies etc. well Cameron couldn't really get enthusiastic about that could he:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/dec/09/david-cameron-blocks-eu-treaty
Mr Hughes my French teacher in 1972-4 did a better job of selling the EU than Cameron.
How do you sell something you already have?
I totally agree that they went about it the wrong way but that's because Leave stole the narrative rather than anything else.
It also didn't help that Remain was completely fractured due to the tribal nature of the parties involved.
Remain spent too much time throwing themselves on the grenades casually tossed by the Leavers as they ponced around the place scattering pins.
This is old ground.
How do we get back? Ay, there's the rub.
Indeed, very old ground.
How do we get back? Ay, there’s the rub.
Wait.
Judging by how f******d our economy and pound is, the Euro would represent significant progress….
Is that true or did you read it on the BBC?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/10/27/ftse-100-markets-live-news-pensions-tax-bonds-meta/
"The euro tumbled below parity against the dollar on Thursday night after the European Central Bank (ECB) vowed to continue its money printing programme despite surging inflation."
Thank goodness we're out.
“The euro tumbled below parity against the dollar on Thursday night after the European Central Bank (ECB) vowed to continue its money printing programme despite surging inflation.”
Thank goodness we’re out.
I see they are trying to spend their way out like Liz Truss, they know that doing so means heading for high inflation. Once their energy stock is depleted no matter what they do they are not going to solve the problem. Price will continue to increase and printing more money will make it worse. Well, it might work temporarily to buy some time but definitely not a solution. US cannot pump more oil to help out because if they do so their oil price will drop drastically and the shareholders/investors are not going to be happy. Besides, Saudi might cut oil production even more to maintain high price. Therefore, inflation is inevitable.
They better start thinking about hydrogen fuel cell now for long term good.
Weird thing is that normally inflation is associated with "growth" (borrow to spend, low interest rate etc) but this time inflation is caused by the supply side shortage. That's how I understand it.
Thank goodness we’re out
Good point, we’ll presented, We were never in the euro.
They better start thinking about hydrogen fuel cell now for long term good.
Wrong thread really, but where, just out of interest, do you think magic hydrogen comes from?
Thank goodness we’re out.
Doh!, not the brightest then?
They better start thinking about hydrogen fuel cell now for long term good.
Hydrogen is expensive to produce due to the amount of electricity the process uses, may as well just use electricity, but currently that comes from gas or coal, in the most, so it solves nothing.
What's needed is huge investment in solar and wind to produce electricity rather than Gas or coal.
Nuclear is a better short term stop gap until enough renewable power sources are invested in. Even better if fusion reactors come along.
We need to fix the cause of the problem, not the symptoms. Hydrogen is a great clean fuel but it's currently produced by dirty methods, which compleatly undermines the point.
What’s needed is huge investment in solar and wind to produce electricity rather than Gas or coal.
I doubt that's enough to supply all the energy need.
Nuclear is a better short term stop gap until enough renewable power sources are invested in. Even better if fusion reactors come along.
Renewable can never fill the gap but only part of it. It should be a combination of all the energy sources. How long does it take to build nuclear/fusion reactors? Can't build them overnight that's what I know.
Wrong thread really, but where, just out of interest, do you think magic hydrogen comes from?
Nevermind, it was just a random thought. What is there to fill the current energy shortage? Not a lot.
p/s: is high inflation better than low or no growth?
Reading these threads one would think the UK was the only country having problems. (yes, I know we're mainly all in the UK, so It's topical)
According to our Spanish rep for the place we just stayed in, Spain is bubbling too. He looks after a lot of properties owned by Swedes, Sweden apparently has a huge immigration problem.
Don't shoot the messenger, I'm only saying.*
*but wish I'd listened more.
Sweden has a developing issue with racism. Until recently its been fairly homogeneous without a lot of immigration. Recent years they have taken a goodly number of refugees and immigrants and some locals don't like seeing black faces around. Its IMO a racism issue not an immigration one - they need the workforce
Oh - and we have far less asylum seekers per head of population than most other European countries - and 70+% of all people who claim asylum are granted it ( usually after multiple appeals)
We do not have an immigration / refugee / asylum seeker problem. We have a racism problem
It is hardly a revelation that the asylum system buckling under a critical mass of fraudulent claims which grows ever larger as our borders become ever more porous with less and less action taken to close the gaps.
It was Ylva Johansson, the EU home affairs commissioner, who said in August, “the huge majority applying for asylum are not refugees”. She echoed Frans Timmermans, a vice-president of the European Commission, who said in 2016, “60% [of those claiming asylum] are economic migrants.”
Migration watch are a bunch of far right racists in a nice suit. Don't believe a word they say
Can i ask a question of the MMT enthusiasts?
If the UK were to apply to rejoin, and adoption of the Euro was non-negotiable, would you oppose it? I admit to being a complete dunce here, but from what has been oft posted, having control of one's own Central Bank and being the issuer of one's own currency seems a key component of this model.
Would ceding control of fiscal policy to a European Central Bank be something that would concern you?
This is an actual question by the way, i'm not trying to score points.
I realise 'enthusiasts' seems like a value judgement, it really isn't - i was struggling to find a better word and failed.
What's an MMT enthusiast? Lol!
A Middle-Aged Mutant Turtle Super-Fan.
Or somesuch - Mega LOLZ.
Am i alone here?
Two STW leavers make their reason for voting leave clear. And TJ gives it the right name. Yet there weren't any coloured asylum seekers with EU passports working in Britain.
As for the ECB printing money, the alternative is austerity.
If the UK were to apply to rejoin, and adoption of the Euro was non-negotiable, would you oppose it? I admit to being a complete dunce here, but from what has been oft posted, having control of one’s own Central Bank and being the issuer of one’s own currency seems a key component of this model
You don't really want to give up the a ability to control your own spending with your own central bank.
So I couldn't support that. It's not really likely to happen though is it?
The benefits of a sovereign currency outweigh just about everything else because you can spend on what deficits exists in your real economy. The fact the government doesn't is not a reason to not support it.
Having said all this the ECB have signed off on plenty of spending packages throughout covid and there has been ultimately a similar approach to what the UK did. And it's complex but recently individual countries in the EU have been able to control their spending from their own central bank. To what degree I'm not sure.
Remember exports are giving up real resources (limited) in exchange for something that isn't limited - £££.
There's a bigger picture here though as the whole macro picture changes across the world so I'm not sure what returning to normal is these days.
There's some eurozone analysis here on recent events that is relevant.
I realise ‘enthusiasts’ seems like a value judgement, it really isn’t – i was struggling to find a better word and failed.
I don't mind being called an enthusiast for MMT.
There isn't really a competing description of how government finances work. So may as well be enthusiastic.
😉
Rone - there are many competing descriptions and your fallacy of being able to endlessly create money is not anywhere near the consensus. Yes its a tool but can only be used sparingly otherwise you dilute the currency and make it worth less which drives inflation.
Rone – there are many competing descriptions and your fallacy of being able to endlessly create money is not anywhere near the consensus
Wow, and yet again someone misrepresents what MMT is.
MMT is not about endlessly creating money. It says there are real limits. It describes the current system.
It says that government's with central banks aren't limited by amounts of £££.
Name one competing accurate model?
This is quite an ignorant observation BTW.
Yes its a tool but can only be used sparingly otherwise you dilute the currency and make it worth less which drives inflation.
Keep that Friedman outdated analysis to one side...
You can't dilute a fiat currency - it's not pegged against anything. Taxation exists to control that too. That's part of the mechanism that MMT describes.
Currency value is driven by what markets think it's worth based on a whole world of economic metrics.
Example: the Fed has pumped tonnes of money into the system and the dollar is strong against just about every other currency.
Its not a tiopic I know a lot about however there is no consensus that MMT is right indeed its a minority view.
"MMT is not about endlessly creating money. It says there are real limits."
Well that is not what you have been preaching on here. You have been saying the cure for every economic woe is to endlessly create money. Glad to see you have changed it to something realistic.
Of course creating more money dilutes the currency. It cannot be otherwise. You can artificially increase the value of the currency by other means as the UK and US keep on doing but creating more of anything dilutes its value again this can be seen in falling exchange rates and incrasing inflation
With that I have hit my limit of understanding. You are evangelistic on this one but you ain't convinced me but I have little knowledge to debate with you and I also understand that "ask 3 economists a question and get 3 differnt answers"
MMT is NOT widely accepted worldwide. Its is nowhere near the consensus
With that I have hit my limit of understanding. You are evangelistic on this one but you ain’t convinced me but I have little knowledge to debate with you and I also understand that “ask 3 economists a question and get 3 differnt answers”
+1