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My thinking was that another Scottish referendum and then a consultation period for rejoining could mean the compromise being offered by Westminster of ‘please stay part of the union and we will join the single market’
Yeah, I guess that's also a possibility too.
The eu beaurocrats may have said that but national leaders
As we’ve seen in the past few years (weeks??), National leaders come and go…
Economically, the EU is stronger with the UK and the UK is stronger in the EU. Given that most European politicians come across as fairly considered people, why they would turn away from a position of mutually greater economic strength is beyond me. Of course the UK would be welcomed back, but it would be in a weaker political position than before, plus we would have to adopt the euro as our currency. The symbolism of this cannot be understated for many Brits; I believe this would be more of a major stumbling block than any imagined spite of a European leader.
Single market in a decade due to economic problems, then rejoin 20 years after that when people finally realise it's better to be part of the rule making process.
In theory the UK would have to commit to adopting the Euro at some undetermined point in the future. Assuming this requirement wasn't negotiated away, there are a number of non-compulsory steps required before the Euro could be adopted. The UK could simply choose not to follow those steps.
We could promise to adopt the Euro the year after Sweden does?
Hang about. What has Scotland got to do with it? They voted to stay part of the UK. You can’t be childish and say, “it didn’t go the way I wanted so lets have best of three”. Makes a complete mockery of any form of democracy doesn’t it?
Because in the closing days of campaigning a "vow" was made to the people of Scotland from the No campaign including the point that staying in the union would guarantee us staying in the EU.
My thinking was that another Scottish referendum and then a consultation period for rejoining could mean the compromise being offered by Westminster of ‘please stay part of the union and we will join the single market’
Even if it was sincere nobody would take it seriously for the above reason. Fool me once...
Because in the closing days of campaigning a “vow” was made to the people of Scotland from the No campaign including the point that staying in the union would guarantee us staying in the EU.
This. I, and I imagine many others, see this as the template for how Westminster treat the people of Scotland. They'll happily lie to us to get what they want.
Yeah, but there's another thread for that. How do you see UK/rUK rejoining the EU?
I, and I imagine many others, see this as the template for how politicians
Westminstertreat the peopleof Scotland. They’ll happily lie to us to get what they want.
Yeah, but there’s another thread for that. How do you see UK/rUK rejoining the EU?
Honestly, I don't - not in the UK's current form anyway. It would be political suicide for either of the major parties to try, so they won't. I can't see that changing for a generation or two.
I think if Scotland gets independence, attempting to apply to re-join the EU would be a very easy sell to the people of Scotland, because most of us voted remain. It'll be much harder to convince the people of England, because the majority voted leave.
Single market in a decade due to economic problems, then rejoin 20 years after that when people finally realise it’s better to be part of the rule making process.
Once we've let natural wastage remove the demographics keen on Brexit and the politicians who were all for it 🙂
How are you going to convince the eu to allow a rejoining? We have caused nothing but trouble since joining. The uk has been detrimental to the EU holding up important projects and disrupting parliament
No it hasn't.
It has twodogs. From electing ukippers to numerous instances of delaying projectsg threatening vetos etc
The UK has made a very substantial financial contribution, it's played a very significant role in the development of the EU (single market!) and things like scientific cooperation would be much stronger for their presence. We are also a useful counterbalance to the might of Germany/France who are likely to dominate to a greater extent now.
There were of course stupid political spats, and I'm sure these will continue to take place in our absence. But until 2016, that never seriously threatened the whole project. Well, even since 2016, the UK's behaviour didn't threaten the project, just caused a bit of a nuisance.
It has twodogs
You're wrong but I can't be arsed arguing. Several people have explained why the UK would be welcomed back, but you're ignoring anything they say.
(Do you really think that the EU didn't recognise that UKIP MEPs were the extreme end of a spectrum and that the vast majority of UK MEPs were hardworking and wanted to be there. Also, every country has their share of extremist MEPs)
Im not ignoring - I am disagreeing. Yes the UK was a contributor but it also has caused huge trouble over the years
Its not just the extremist UKIPPERs - its decades of intransigence of blocking and delaying projects of threatening vetos etc etc
I know from discussions with EU journalists that in private many politicians in the EU are glad to see the back of the UK. They will not say it in public of course but in off the record briefings they will.
This is the reality - that the UK will not be welcomed back. Its caused too much damage to the EU over the 40 years of membership
in many ways our folly has been useful to the EU. when i was in germany a couple of years ago a colleague mentioned to me they used to see stuff in german media mooting the idea of leaving the EU quite often. since we'd made the decision to leave and the subsequent fallout was starting to take shape they said they hadn't heard a thing about german departure since. One can only imagine that lesson has been well reinforced by now.
there will be a deal to be done and we will do it. we'll be on the shitty end of it and grateful for it when it comes. hopefully at least others will reap the benefit of our experience rather than having to go through it themselves.
we won't 'rejoin the EU' we will 'realign ourselves with key markets' or some such euphemism in the shorter term.
The EU would have UK/rUK back in a heartbeat. However, it would have to know that there was a significant majority in favour of re-joining. Both main parties would need to be committed to it. For that reason alone, I think we're looking at two electoral cycles, 10 to 12 years.
Having said that, many forms of re-alignment could take place in the meantime. That would make the eventual process quicker and would show that the UK/rUK was willing.
Where are you getting that timescale from ?.
Other countries that have successfully joined. It took Poland 10 years from April 94 to May 2004 for example.
Mefty is right about UK growth, it's as good as its neighbours. The problems The UK is running into are down to the way that growth was achieved because they are unsustainable, as with its neighbours with equal growth - mainly borrowing and printing money which has led to inflation. The way the increase in wealth created is distributed is however, not comparable with the neighbours.
Whilst I was dismayed by the leave vote in 2016 I don't want the UK back in the EU with either current Tory or Labour parties in charge, it wouldn't work
If ever we do re-join could we get the EU to make sure there’s some law in place (like the UK) where people have to pick their dogs crap up? Cos it doesn’t seem to happen in Spain.
Dog shite everywhere.
Is it also English exceptionalism to pretend that the rest of Europe didn't have their own UKIP-style w@nkers?
Some sort of SM/CU hybrid sans free movement that we pay 'subs' for by 2027- everybody pretending it's 'just' to smooth the UK/Ireland border situation - followed by a few years of mission-creep, concessions on free movement, agreements on scope of EU Supreme Court etc, followed by a re-join referendum in every Party manifesto c.2030-something, then full membership by 2035.
Some sort of SM/CU hybrid sans free movement
Dream on.
Dream on.
Yes, thanks, i will.
Obviously this is all predicated on the next UK Government being NOT a Tory one - be it a Labour majority one, or a Lab/Lib*/SNP*/ *delete as appropriate coalition one - this is the first and most necessary step.
I think it's well within our collective creative capabilities, Continent wide, to concoct some sort of fudge that opens at least a Customs Union that can be unhitched from FoM - in the short term we need to throw some sort of bone to the rabid dogs.
The biggest question to answer is whether we'd be welcomed back in the first place.
The Norway deal is the best you can hope for and yes they have freedom of movement. You want free trade with the EU you sign up to the four freedoms. No if buts or maybes that's the way it is and the UK is the last country on earth the EU will make and exception for because they know that behind their back Brits are calling them rabid dogs.
One of the comicla aspects of Brexit from this side of the channel was the way British politicians were bragging about how they were going to do the dirty on the EU with cake and eating it etc. as if nobody on this side of the Channel was in ear shot.
No exceptions will be made other than those that favour the survival of the Good Friday Agreement which is in danger since Brexit. The EU will be on Ireland's side which inevitably means confronting Westminster.
Your attitude mirrors the right wing UK gutter press, Vazaha, The EU parliament knows all about it from Farrage and co., every foreigner who has driven on foreign plates in the UK knows it, everyone who has spoken a foreign language in a Midlands ASDA shopping queue knows it. You lot* hate us and just want to rip us off. Or enough of you do for the EU to want to keep you at arms' length.
That's how Europeans see the UK, a rogue state specialising in money laundering, investing in tax havens, social dumping and tea at 4 o'clock.
No freedom of movement = no free trade. You lot* threw away your only chance of fudging that by leaving and throwing away your EU parliament seat.
Yours faithfully, a rabid dog.
* a variable percentage of the UK population, check out the opinion polls. Remainers ignore this post, you knew the score and know the score, and I sysmpathise.
View from France (been mixing with people that my daughter is working with)… Ireland is the new England. Much, much, much further travel wise… but you can take the kids there without buying passports, and the welcome feels genuine. Then, when out last night… after those conversations… noticed how many Irish couples and families were out for the evening. Interesting. Oh, we did encounter a group English lads… they managed to empty a packed bar with their behaviour. We are still exceptional in some ways. 😔
There is certainly a route back into the EU but if you think you can unhitch it from FOM then you still haven't got the point. It's an integral part of the package, no ifs or buts
The thing that's crippling the UK is being outside of the Customs Union.
Whatever deal has to be struck to regain that is the only deal worth striking.
I guess that means full membership in reality.
@edukator I think he was referring to our own rabid dogs, not sure why you're giving him shit either, I thought you liked remainers/rejoiners?
I don’t want the UK back in the EU with either current Tory or Labour parties in charge, it wouldn’t work
The Labour party and the sane wing of the Tories want to be back in the EU. But they know that they have to appeal to Brexiteers to gain power so they can't actually say that. When the current lot of nutjob Tories eventually collapse, they'll start moving us back EU-wards.
Some sort of SM/CU hybrid sans free movement
I wouldn't vote for that even if it was on offer. Not that it ever would be.
We never agree on anythingn, Squirrelking, so naturally I think he's calling EU rabid dogs for being (rightly) fanatical about freedom of movement. The paragraph is all about the EU and how he is going to fudge their rules in his own interest but in the mean time is going to throw them a bone which I interpreted as being nice to the EU.
We've been talking free trade and freedom of movement for about 7 years on STW and some people still haven't grasped that the EU isn't going to dissociate the the two (or four) freedoms for a nation that walked out having farted in the room.
Unrealistic rejoiners are part of the problem. Get real, that's why I typed "dream on" at the pie in the sky speculation about how the UK is going change the EU rules to make what the UK wants possible. You can't have your ckae and eat it, Boris was talking bollocks as usual.
Why would Germany want the UK back? You're still buying German cars and stuff.
Why would France want the UK back when Toyota amongst others has shifted investments to France but Brits still ski in Val.
43% of EU stocks used to be traded in the UK, check out the number now.
The won't be launching into Farrage style gloating but a lot of people in Europe are benefitting from Brexit. They're just quietly getting on with buisiness with one less competitor.
It seems many people have a problem with democracy. Lefties always are the worst tyrants.
It seems many people have a problem with democracy
The way it's working for us, yes. It's resulted in the majority of UK citizens becoming worse off. It's always been the case that the democratic process has been manipulated by those with power, and modern communication have enabled deeper manipulation. Democracy is still the least bad option, not least because it allows debate on forums such as this about how it might be improved.
Don’t feed the rather below average troll.
The Beautiful/tragic (delete as appropriate) irony is the brexit vote was a non-confirmational, a non legaly binding finger in the air vote, that then suddenly became 'what we had to do'.
If it was a legally binding vote/referendum from the outset, then there would be far more checks and balances, plans would have to be pre-designed for the consequences. None of that happened.
It's the most stupid thing to happen in my living history, and possibly the history of the entire human race.
The paragraph is all about the EU and how he is going to fudge their rules in his own interest but in the mean time is going to throw them a bone which I interpreted as being nice to the EU.
Whereas I read it as a viable way to drip feed our reintegration with Europe to the hard of thinking.
I dont think for a minute it's as easy as just saying we're bored and want back into the party. We ****ed up. Hard. Whilst we weren't thrown out we were the loudmouth **** that criticised the house, the hosts and guests before strolling off shouting about the better party down the road that didn't turn out to be anything.
The UK, as a whole, isn't going to get back in without a lot of diplomacy, a lot of cooperation and a lot of commitment.
I think you have misinterpreted what i was trying to say - it will take a lot of humility on our part if we are to undo this.
The way back into the EU would probably require a little bit of help from the EU to placate the headbangers/rabid dogs on these shores, but you are absolutely right, that would require the will to assist us in the first place.
Certainly listening to the words of Guy Verhofstadt recently it would seem there might be some appetite for it, but how widespread that view is i don't pretend to know.
I still think that Scotland becoming independent could be a route for the rest of the UK (Wales,England NI) to deal indirectly with the EU via a hard border between Scotland and England, which is a lot less problematic that a hard border between the Irish states.
It would certainly throw a hell of a lot of money into that section of the UK. Good for Scotland, good for a long deprived northern England.
Thanks for the clarification.
Again you want the EU to change to suit the UK's needs. What's really needed is a sea change in UK attitudes. THere aren't over 50% of "headbangers/rabid dogs" in the UK yet over 50% voted Brexit, why?
Because they'd been subjected to over 40 years of anti-EU propaganda. The EU doesn't need to placate anyone in the UK, the UK needs to sort out its own issues the main one of which is disinformation. Remember Jamba of this forum, if you don't go back and read the original Brexit thread. He promoted Brexit with a series of misthruths, distortions, invented facts and some of us methodically produced the evidence he was wrong. Bollocks doesn't do too well on STW, but in the rest of society it thrives. Feed a few snippets to those xenophobes down the pub and they'll lap it up and tell all their mates who pass it on without ever bothering to check because most people don't.
It's the way propaganda works, the bigger the lie the easier it is to sell. And even if you get caught you just tell another lie and people tend to remember the lie rather than the truth. 350 million you remember, do you remember the real figure? And Johnson doubled down saying it was too low a couple of years later.
The UK is at the mercy of a few business sharks and media/press barons who don't have Britains best interests at heart which isn't surprising because they they rarely set foot in the place.
The EU shouldn't even consider making concessions until there is a popular enthusiasm for the EU in the UK, not just "we need to rejoin the EU for all its ills because we're ****ed if we don't". That sums up many remainers' attitude: a necessary evil rather than a union that makes its members stronger and benefits the citizens of those member states. Because it does.
This British idea of being picky and just having the bits you want was tolerated remarkably well, I hope the EU has learned from its mistakes and treats Britain like any other state wishing to join - commit to the whole package or bugger off.
You were doing so well, I was actually with you up until this point:
The EU shouldn’t even consider making concessions until there is a popular enthusiasm for the EU in the UK, not just “we need to rejoin the EU for all its ills because we’re **** if we don’t”. That sums up many remainers’ attitude: a necessary evil rather than a union that makes its members stronger and benefits the citizens of those member states. Because it does.
That's just bollocks, I don't think I've ever met an actual remainer of that opinion much less many.
The EU shouldn’t even consider making concessions until there is a popular enthusiasm for the EU in the UK, not just “we need to rejoin the EU for all its ills because we’re **** if we don’t”. That sums up many remainers’ attitude: a necessary evil rather than a union that makes its members stronger and benefits the citizens of those member states. Because it does.
I think this describes the attitude of those who wanted to leave and are now realizing what a balls-up it was, rather than the attitude of those who never wanted to leave in the first place. Other than that, though, I completely agree. The UK was always a drag on the EU, never a willing participant.
Read the original Brexit thread, Squirelking, and note remainers' attitudes to the EU. the "project fear" thing was real, people didn't vote remain because of their love of the EU, they voted remain because they realised that leaving the EU would cause them pain. You had a series of remain politicians from the cabinet and shadow cabinet selling remaining in the EU as nasty medecine but if you don't take you'll come out in a rash.
I have a challenge for you Sqirrelking, find an article selling the EU as a fantastic organisation that has improved people's quality of life, made work safer, caused the economy to boom, beaches cleaner, food healthier, air cleaner, cars safer, electrical appliances safer, homes safer, phoning cheaper, medication safer, drinking water safer, children's toys safer, travel safer and easier, poor regions better funded, education better funded, research better organised and funded... .
Even the reaminers I know were in the necessary evil camp, do have a look at the original Brexit thread. I was very careful not to be too enthusiastic about the EU fearing it might create a backlash that would lose rather than gain remain votes. I ignored the criticisms, sympathised even, and mainly concentrated on denouncing the misinformation.
But yeah, the EU's been good to me even if it means my humble extension is as much reinforced concrete as brick to meet Euro 8 seismic regs.
If you agree with democracy, and you believe the system is legitimate (i.e. not corrupt), you have to accept the majority vote. If you can't, you should just be honest and admit you don't want the plebs to have a say and you would rather live under authoritarian rule - this is why lefties are often just as bad as those in 'power' whom they criticise.
That’s just bollocks, I don’t think I’ve ever met an actual remainer of that opinion much less many.
+1 to that.
The UK was always a drag on the EU, never a willing participant.
I think this take is rather too simplistic.
Sure at the highest level there was always some eurosceptic playing to the gallery. On many practical topics however, the UK was a significant participant and contributor. Scientific collaboration is one case close to my heart. And it was Thatcher who pushed the whole single market, or so we are regularly told (a bit before my time in terms of detailed political consciousness).
There's often been a bit of euroscepticism in the domestic politics of many other EU member states. Don't make this another case of UK (English?) exceptionalism.
There’s often been a bit of euroscepticism in the domestic politics of many other EU member states. Don’t make this another case of UK (English?) exceptionalism.
I was going to say the same thing. What did represent was one of the bigger countries in the EU that represented this view that was more common amongst lots of the smaller countries.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/brexit-uk-truss-eu-polls-b2162047.html
Interesting to note that 80% of 18-24 year olds would vote to rejoin the EU. (Actually that's the same percentage of that age bracket who'd have voted to remain when polled in 2018).
Brexit is being increasingly clearly shown to be the economic disaster that was predicted. I don't see us suddenly rejoining but I wouldn't be surprised if we were back in and in the Euro by 2035.
I remember going through the age vs voting preference data when the vote happened and coming to the conclusion that we'd see a 1% swing towards remain each year as more leave voters died and more remain voters turned 18. Bizarre to be in a situation where it's considered more democratic for the wishes of dead people to be more important than the wishes of anyone aged under 24!
If you agree with democracy, and you believe the system is legitimate (i.e. not corrupt), you have to accept the majority vote
No, not really. Democracy isn't a single thing, it's a method, and like any method it can be done badly or done well. I might make a terrible cake but that does not mean baking is bad, it just means I did something wrong with my baking.
Democracy needs a few things. It needs education, primarily, beceause asking someone's opinion on something they know little about is worthless; and campaigning to persuade someone to vote with you when they don't know anything about the topic is clearly open to abuse. It also needs moderation, because extreme views should not be allowed to make radical changes immediately on a whim.
I believe in good democracy, not bad democracy.
You need to separate populism from democracy.. it's one of the problems of referenda.. you just need to pick the question to give the answer you want and do your groundwork.
It's also irrelevant to the UK rejoining, as the majority in the EU aren't so interested in that if it means a lot of mess, and fudging, for what? You're not going to get a compromise on one of the four fundamental pillars just because it suits UK internal politic and a desire to have the have the cake and eat it
And continuing on, democracy is a method and a process, not an event.
The 2016 51.9:48.1 vote was an event. It was accepted, we left, that’s now history.
Perfectly reasonable to start trying to rejoin now.
Whether the EU would have us of course…
SM without FoM makes no sense from the UK perspective because such a significant proportion of our exports are service-based anyway. All those musicians popping over for a concert, scientists (me) spending a few months (or years) abroad, all sorts of engineering support. Visas etc make this all just impractical. Well yeah ok for a 3 year research post it is often practical enough to get a visa, but that still excludes a whole lot of important stuff, possibly including your family...
As I said, even if it was on offer, I wouldn't vote for it.
Whether the EU would have us of course…
You think all these institutions are separate, not heads of the same hydra. How sweet and naive.
We do not live in a democracy of any sort. It is a sham. Voting for one of two parties in rigged elections, to elect one party that is controlled by the same hidden hand. Not being able to influence a single thing that party does once in power. I can only think you have a great sense of humour if you consider that democracy.
The fact that Leave won was surprising to me - even though I knew it was the majority view among the proles, I did not think the powers that be would allow that to happen. I concluded it must have been part of a very 5D chess move, the longer-term implications of which few of us are aware. Although less regulation had to be in there for the banksters who run the 'UK' / city of London.
Direct democracy (anarchism) is the only way to break the perpetual loop of stupidity we have been in for centuries/millennia.
Loving your work. I think you’re looking for conspiracy where there is mainly incompetence though.
I’m old enough to remember a few different regimes in the UK, and trust me they weren’t all the same.
Direct democracy (anarchism)
I don't know of any examples where that's worked. On the other hand, the system you appear to be criticising has a lot of the hallmarks of anarchy; people do what they like, according the power they hold. There's no point me practicing anarchism, I'd be dead in a week.
Looking at the racism in the current asylum seekers debate, I can't see that we'll ever go back into the EU
Some people want to cling tight to their xenophobia and plenty of politicians know that demonising foreigners is a great way to distract from your incompetence & corruption
Braverman being the perfect example of that
Direct democracy (anarchism) is the only way to break the perpetual loop of stupidity we have been in for centuries/millennia.
Your naivety is touching.... you were surprised the UK left the EU.. if you had referenda (direct democracy) for e.g.
bringing back hanging
zero immigration
Castrating rapists (or suspected of)
Throwing troublemakers in chokey for a couple of years e.g. extinction rebellion
Or any other bits of populist nonsense, you might get a result that surprises, and doesn't delight, especially if there's a bit of hokey advertising/propaganda to help things along
Anarchism is not chaos, that's what you've been sold by the television. It is a rejection of authority. People naturally want for some minor administrations, however the only way to prevent our 'servants' from controlling us is to invent a system of direct democracy. It's actually pretty simple. You need no examples of it having worked, indeed you would not find any because it is the last thing your servants (controllers) want.
You mistrust the people if you think the majority want hanging, castration etc. Most people do the right thing. Although again, you reveal your elitist stance whereby YOU decide what's right and can't have the MAJORITY deciding.
A rather disgusting stance for an adult.
There is no incompetence. Engage your brain for two minutes. The guys and gals that went to the top unis and into the top firms are not exactly stupid are they. They are brighter than most. They are VERY competent and that is why they do so well at doing as they are told by their superiors. The privileged and successful have a higher concentration of liars and psychopaths. That is how they maintain their position. No qualms in lying to and stealing from the public they are meant to serve. They are the wolves. The plebs (the proles) having a higher sense of unity and decency due to conscience, are less able to do the same. They are the herd.
'Disaster' of a PM for 44 days and £115k pa for life. That's not what happens to 'disaster' employees now is it. It's a reward for playing a valuable role.
The whole system needs to be destroyed but first the illiterate 'electorate' needs to wake up to reality that 'voting' just perpetuates the western civilisation death spiral.
Parklife!
Again you want the EU to change to suit the UK’s needs. What’s really needed is a sea change in UK attitudes.
Again, i think you have misinterpreted what i was trying to convey - tbf i was only really shooting the shizzle with probably/definitely a quite heavy dose of wishful thinking.
I see it as a long term, incremental process, you are absolutely right that the necessary direction of travel is for us to steer toward the EU. I see it as a gradual process to full membership, with ALL that entails, but it will take probably another decade at least, possibly two.
There is an immediate threat that needs to be addressed, however, and this actually affects a Member State - the only 'fudge' one would hope for along the way - and that is the border issue in Ireland. This is where in an ideal world some sort of agreement could be reached to protect the GFA and commit us to some sort of regulatory alignment to the EU. This would need to be done soon, so that's why i'm suggesting it would be helpful if we could unhitch it from FoM so that it could go down well with the, well, call them what you will.
I think you make a fair point that there were many people in the UK (one is always tempted to rather put 'England' here) who saw the EU as a loveless marriage of convenience, but i think you do us a bit of a disservice in suggesting it's as widely held as you imply. Certainly outside of the purely political sphere in the Community i think people ^upthread have made equally good points about the cooperation and fraternity that existed outside of that.
But political engagement would have to change, on that you are absolutely right. There would be no point in rejoining if we were again to send some sort of Farage 2.0 with a clone army of w@nkers to the European Parliament. And again, this might be wishful thinking, but over the course of the next decade one would hope that the demographic change will happen alongside an attitudinal one. I know quite a few people who just missed out on the Referendum vote in 2016 who are still mad as hell about it. There has got to be a good chance that Farage will be dead by 2035 as well - every little helps.
Really i was just trying to imagine a scenario that would bring us back into the fold in the shortest time possible. Dream on, eh?
to elect one party that is controlled by the same hidden hand
If it's hidden how do you know about it?
Anarchism is not chaos, that’s what you’ve been sold by the television.
No, I've actually thought about it and made up my own mind. Let me explain.
Most people do want to do the right thing, you are correct. But a significant minority don't, so they will use violence to take what you have. So how do you respond to that? You organise so that you can have a defence force of some kind, to prevent people outside your group doing violence against you. But wait, sometimes people within your group have arguments and get angry - so you need to stop them killing each other, and somehow give out fairness. So that means you need some form of policing and justice now too. So you're farming, and you need tools and stuff and you want the good ones made of iron. You don't have any iron in your area, the neighbours do but you are brilliant at growing carrots. You can trade carrots with the neighbours, but they only need so many carrots. So you need to trade carrots to the other neighbours, but they don't have iron. Hmm, perhaps they can exchange carrots for some kind of token valuable thing that you can all gather and pass around to each other to get the things you want. Oh look, you've created money and an economy.
We have societies and governments because we need them to protect people from those who would do us harm or rob us. True anarchy is impossible, because people will always organise to protect themselves.
You might be talking about small scale communism, but that's a different discussion.
If it’s hidden how do you know about it?
Because I'm awake, unlike the majority of the populace.
I appreciate your reasoned response. It actually describes how we got to where we are, as did other civilisations. More organisation/administration is always sought in order to provide for and protect our own. Government only grows.
However. It is contingent on a promise: that our servants SERVE us and never seek to control us. Which has not been the case for a very long time. That's because the rich always befriend the government and the two work for each other while screwing over the people. The government enforces its will (its orders from its corporate masters) by threat, injury, imprisonment and death. Like an out of control dog, it must be put down. There is no alternative.
Only an outside-of-the-box solution will solve this conundrum: direct democracy with a very small administration to run life's essentials, with power in the hands of the people.
The fact that most people cannot comprehend let alone imagine such a system is indicative of the fact that most people have rather average minds. People who think outside the box are often maligned, ridiculed or at least misunderstood by most. It would be easy to do, especially now with the available technology.
BUT, as I've already said, first the masses must awaken to what is actually going on because until then they will continue to defend the current system and the security (they perceive) it gives them. See Morpheus' speech to Neo about fighting (you) to protect it.
Does Morpheus have a road map for rejoining the EU?
Movies aren't actually real, right? You do know that?
This is where in an ideal world some sort of agreement could be reached to protect the GFA and commit us to some sort of regulatory alignment to the EU. This would need to be done soon, so that’s why i’m suggesting it would be helpful if we could unhitch it from FoM so that it could go down well with the, well, call them what you wil
The "deal" revolved around just that, and does a very good job of protecting the GFA given that Wesminster tried to rip it to pieces. The EU solution being a border down the Irish sea and St Georges Channel and FoM for NI citizens born before 2005 if they bother to ask for the Irish passports to which they have a right. And free trade between NI and Ireland! The result is that NI is in a very favourable position which won't be extended to the rest of the UK, Michel Barnier was very clear about that with the full backing of a unanimity of EU countries.
NI is enjoying an increase in inward investment, a boom in trade, growth at least in line with the rest of the UK rather than lagging as it did for decades. Quite handy being in the both the EU and UK. If you go back to the original Brexit thread you'll find I was the first to point out that the only way to preserve the GFA was a border down the Irish sea/ St Georges Channel. I got abuse for saying that a hard Brexit effectively tore up the GFA early in the debate. The EU Eurocrats came up with the solution, Barnier presented it and Boris signed it - it was that or no deal. Don't underestimate the Eurocrats and the European parliament.
I never realised that the lady in the red dress was an MEP. Wow.
On the one hand, I feel the need to rewatch it.
On the other hand, that would remind of the sequels and I do not want that.
True anarchy is impossible, because people will always organise to protect themselves.
+1
Read the original Brexit thread, Squirelking, and note remainers’ attitudes to the EU. the “project fear” thing was real, people didn’t vote remain because of their love of the EU, they voted remain because they realised that leaving the EU would cause them pain. You had a series of remain politicians from the cabinet and shadow cabinet selling remaining in the EU as nasty medecine but if you don’t take you’ll come out in a rash.
Not this Remainer. I'd worked across the world (and in over half the EU countries) and fully understood why been in the EU was the best for the UK and the vast majority of it's citizens (and for the EU). I'm fully supportive of its 'aims' and made my position quite clear (different username originally).
I am a Social Democrat and always have been - a flat(ter) 'playing field' is the only way of ensuring that the weak and/or poor don't suffer unduly. This matters to me, and having experienced how folk live & work in countries across the world, I don't want the UK to be like these countries.
I never realised that the lady in the red dress was an MEP. Wow.
She was actually STW's favourite ex-Tory Rory Stewart.
If you agree with democracy, and you believe the system is legitimate (i.e. not corrupt),
The two things aren't mutually exclusive though are they, I certainly agree with the basic goals of democracy, but I would definitely question the legitimacy of our current system where a bit of undue influence from Cambridge Analytica and/or the sway of the Barclay Bros or Murdoch Meeja seem to undermine what might be called 'legitimacy' a bit IMO.
And I really don't think you could claim that it's free of corruption could you? Not unless maybe you've slept through the last couple of years...
you have to accept the majority vote. If you can’t, you should just be honest and admit you don’t want the plebs to have a say and you would rather live under authoritarian rule – this is why lefties are often just as bad as those in ‘power’ whom they criticise.
I thought we already had accepted the (slim) majority on this particular topic, the faithful now claim to have "done" a Brexit don't they? It's pretty disingenuous to accuse those questioning/challenging the current Brexity age of wonder we're living in of trying to deny the 'plebs' their rights and implement authoritarianism. A robust democratic government and their supporters should be able to tolerate a bit of challenge to the (now) established leadership's ideas without needing to accuse dissenting voices of yearning for some sort of Stalinism...
Perhaps most interesting is that you label those not totally enamoured with modern Brexit-land as "Lefties" implying that Brexit and the puppets installed in 'power' in the UK since 2016 are mostly part of some ongoing Right-wing project? (to my little conspiratorial mind at least)
Anyway Back on topic(ish), the UK will only really be able to return to membership the EU by the same mechanism it left i.e. a referendum.
Which is only really worth calling when there's some certainty that the wider UK population recognise the benefits of EU membership and are interested in a vote to regain them.
Ultimately this will require time so people can really get to see how proper deregulation under a Tory government actually bites, how their employment rights start to get eroded, further financial suffering as the promised trade agreements continue not to appear and simply add to our already relatively high cost of living without furthering any economically useful activity other than shuffling oligarchs and Oil Sheiks money around...
Of course if we were to go and get a competent government in the next couple of years and they were to subsequently make a decent go of things, it might actually end up strengthening the argument for remaining outside the EU. bit of a catch 22(?)...
Perhaps the best thing to do is just be wary of making political wish lists for the future and concentrate on dealing with the world as it actually is now. From where we are today I would rather see a stable well run UK than worry about re-joining the EU, personally I think we're out until at least ~2035 now, all for the sake of a 2% margin...
Read the original Brexit thread, Squirelking, and note remainers’ attitudes to the EU.
I remember plenty of folk talking about lost opportunities for themselves, their employees, their children and their businesses if brexit came to pass. Plenty of people got it and still do, the majority up here voted to remain, everyone I know knew what leaving meant and what we'd be losing. Stop tarring us all with the shitty xenophobic stick you yourself like to constantly cry about.
As for one article espousing the positives, there are plenty, have a gander at the "What had the EU ever done for my..." articles.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/series/eu-referendum-reality-check
You seem to be deliberately missing my poing and finding excuses to insult instead.
Read the replies to the original Brexit thread. Even people who are now confirmed remainers were having doubts, some were even considering voting leave. There was little enthusiasm for the EU, some feared losing jobs, some were worried about losing freedom of movement, but a theme that runs through the thread is a dislike of the institution and reapeted whishes for it to be reformed and/or have its wings clipped:
https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/eu-referendum-are-you-in-or-out/
a dislike of the institution and reapeted whishes for it to be reformed and/or have its wings clipped
Some see "dislike"... some see the need to improve... take our UK parliament, government and civil service... do I want us to have organisation, laws, coordination at that level? Yes. Do I want reform and fear overreach? Well... that would be putting it mildly. Likewise, I want us to be in the EU, something I'm unlikely to see again in my lifetime... but I sure want to see further reform of the EU. The weird thing about the argument back in 2016 is that the EU is always shifting and changing... and we should have been discussing what kind of change is need in future, rather than talking about withdrawal because it seemed a simpler more easy to understand path to many. Now we have no say. For decades. But will still be effected by the path the EU takes from here on... because, as Brexit campaigners kept telling us at the time... it wasn't about us leave Europe... we can't leaving Europe, it's where we live... we just gave up a huge slice of control over its direction.
Maybe we could have an advisory rather than fully legal referendum on rejoining the EU just as an indication of the will of the people?
Maybe we could have an advisory rather than fully legal referendum on rejoining the EU just as an indication of the will of the people?
Was just about to mention the advisory referendum, one of the biggest mistakes, IMO.
If it was a formal referendum, or whatever the correct term is, the threshold would have been higher than 51%/49%.
Also the rules around campaigning would be stricter, so the pro-brexit lobby simply wouldn't be alowed to keep lying about the pros/cons of membership.
But it was informal so the normal checks and balances wern't enforcable.
And then it was treated like the result had to be honored... for... 'reasons' ... the entire thing was a combination of stitch up and incompetence from the outset.
Dickyboy, is that, or was it ever, possible?
How could you stop people taking the result as final and not just the indicator that a fully thought out, structured discussion could take place, before a considered vote?
For clarification, my tongue was do firmly in my cheek that they became one.
For clarification, my tongue was do firmly in my cheek that they became one.
Does this mean we've "done tongues" 😱
Does Morpheus have a road map for rejoining the EU?
Movies aren’t actually real, right? You do know that?
Morpheus voted Leave.
What is real? How do you define real? Seriously though.. what you said doesn't make sense. By the same logic, books aren't real. Nor is music. In reality, these are all art forms which convey a message. Some of those messages are very real.