[Closed] 'Risking a baby's life for lunch'

What's the answer, STW massive?

More emergency staff to provide full cover, with breaks.

Missus has the same kind of issues as a hospital doctor. She is diabetic and at times she [i]needs[/i] to eat or she will go hypo.

Taken her years to have the courage to do that though, because they are always busy and there is always another patient to see.

As you said, I think the answer is to take anything written in the Express with a pinch of salt.

The fact that noone else was available to respond is what's wrong. I'm 100% sure that if the crew having lunch knew about the emergency they would have dropped their lunch and went.

More emergency staff to provide full cover, with breaks.

This, of course.

More emergency staff to provide full cover, with breaks.

Smashing. Can't afford it. Now what?

Or you could force them to work 12 hours straight, flat out, with no breaks. The baby would be saved, but then through exhaustion, they'd lose concentration and crash the ambulance into a bus stop killing dozens.

Smashing. Can't afford it. Now what?

We [i]can[/i] afford it - the government (and by extension, "we") just have to be willing to pay for it.

It's silly really - he only mentions as an aside at the bottom, that they never got the call by control, it was control that didn't pass it through due to a policy on breaks. It isn't anything like the first bit of the article, that a load of medics were hanging around listening as calls came through about it.

Ambulances respond to emergencies, kind of by definition. If you say that they should stop their breaks when there is an emergency, then they most likely aren't going to get any breaks in a lot of shifts. It isn't safe for anyone to have someone looking after them and driving them around who hasn't had a break for 11 hours.

Obviously there are different levels of emergency, and they have various categorisations of them (and associated response time targets), but even then, they would still quite likely never get a break if they only took top category calls on break. So the only logical thing to do is to not put through calls while staff are on breaks, and to provide adequate cover for staff on breaks.

It's just a sign of the ambulance service being chronically underfunded. The fire service is pretty well funded, police emergency services are not too bad for money, but the ambulance is so piss takingly underfunded it is amazing what they manage with the money. Or at least that's how it was a few years back when I was involved with the three lots. That's why the ambulance guys have been on the forefront of things like off-base stationing during shifts (that is why you often see an ambulance sitting at some rubbish petrol station on a city ring road or similar waiting for a call; they station ambulances at points off their home base so that they are closer to where a call is most likely to come from), whereas the fire service have managed to keep things station based.

Couldn't agree more GrahamS in a that's the big issue kind of way. However that doesn't solve the problem for the management and road staff of a hard pushed ambulance trust, under pressure from all angles. Any 'real world' ideas?

So nobody ever works through their lunch in case of "emergency" at work? I'd like to know whether the ambulance staff were even given the option or if the controller decided union rules prevail (I once saw a tube driver nearly lynched for going for breakfast after a 30-minute delay because it was "the rules").

Generally if they actually chose a butty over attending a heart attack I'd be shocked. But given it's the express AND Richard, I'm going to suspect it's not the case. Reading the above... seems that they never got the message.

Bravo Richard. Bravo.
[img] [/img]

I'm guessing someone wants a job at the Daily Mail.

It isn't safe for anyone to have someone looking after them and driving them around who hasn't had a break for 11 hours.

controller decided union rules prevail

Real world answer - flexible working by ambulance crews*. Take lunch and breaks when they are not on a call out? I can't imagine that all ambulances and crews are responding to emergencies all the time.

There are a few paramedics on here? When do they have breaks?

*I imagine they do this already otherwise they would starve and people would be dying at 12.00 everyday.

Any 'real world' ideas?

Other than the obvious funding solution, there is a potential solution to this kind of case, which is to offer multiple breaks with the proviso that any break may be disturbed for a top category emergency, and schedule calls accordingly, on the hope that at least on of the breaks does not coincide with there being a top category emergency with no other responder available. You'd have to run the stats on that from past incident history to calculate how many breaks you'd need to offer and how long, but I imagine it would be pretty easy to work out if it was a goer. The problem being that it would inevitably have a bad effect on response times to lower category emergencies, meaning they might be worse by the time someone got there, leading to the inevitable press stories 'man with broken and bleeding leg has to have it amputated after ambulance takes an hour to arrive', or mis-categorisations: 'man with heart attack dies after person on phone thinks it was probably nothing serious'. It might have an effect as to control room categorisation also - if people knew that by going category B, they'd be putting people in for a long wait, they might be more likely to push people up to A if they were uncertain.

It also depends a lot on what particular target culture is in fashion at the moment - if you're on targets for Cat A and Cat B, clearly that solution would have a big negative effect on Cat B, for a potential improvement on your cat A targets. And picking up your non-life threatening's later might increase the numbers of those who had complications once you got them into A+E. All in all it is a bit depressing really.

Its not safe for any medical person to be looking after people without a break. Thankfully my Wife has just left a ward where the shift was officially anyway 12.5 hours, possibly with a 5 minute break.

****ing hell now that has got me ****ing fuming, I will not post a response on this thread as it's unprofessional of me but that guy should find the truth out. What a ****ing ....

Aside from the fact that the Express is like the Mail and the Sun had babies and should therefore be treated with the scepticism one normally reserves for homeopathy,

Is it a particularly good idea to have emergency medical staff working long hours without food or breaks? Next thing we'll be reading is "man dies due to overworked paramedic being unable to concentrate properly".

Damned if you do, etc.

Wife's ward has double shifts of just under 15 hours with 90 minutes of unpaid breaks if they can get them. From a value for money point of view it suits the Trust as each nurse cover 6 shifts per week rather than 5 and is actively encouraged. Each ward could, if all staff agreed to this pattern, lose 2,3 or more nurses - just think of the efficiency savings.

Suits a lot of staff too cos they get more days off.

to offer multiple breaks with the proviso that any break may be disturbed for a top category emergency,

Oi! Who said ANYTHING about union rules? If anyone is fishing for a job at the daily fail its you with that right wing propagandaist bullshit.

I did. Keep up. I'm not saying it was the case but having seen plenty of people knock off when there's a compelling reason not to because that's the union rules (I've worked in several unionised workplaces). The key point was whether they didn't get the message. Which they didn't.

Its not safe for any medical person to be looking after people without a break. Thankfully my Wife has just left a ward where the shift was officially anyway 12.5 hours, possibly with a 5 minute break.

Sounds like my wifes ward.

There are a few paramedics on here? When do they have breaks?

I can't speak for the guys at other trusts but at mine, we don't!
I can't remember the last time I had a break when I was doing an ambulance shift, at a guess I'd say that the last three months I did on a truck I never got a break.

Madeley's just proved himself to be a ****, he needs to try researching things before he puts it in one of his articles.

I did. [s]Keep up[/s] [b]I MADE IT UP[/b]

OK, ta. Fixed it for you.

Madeley's just proved himself to be a ****,

Judging by the feedback, he doesn't seem to be getting a great deal of support for his article.

[url= https://mobile.twitter.com/richardm56/status/290888414935543811 ]Twitter; Richard Madeley eats his words[/url]
Hmmmm. Damage is probably done but chapeau Mr Madeley for realising and admitting that he made a mistake. Couldn't see Clarkson doing that. Will read the promised corrective article with interest...

EDIT; Whoa meehaja, what do you want, a medal? Oh, you already got one... Lol. Seriously though, good post, agree and kinda highlights the stresses the Trusts are under, yet they keep sending out cars and trucks to rubbish. Something's got to give; what you describe is neither safe nor fair.

From Dr Richard's article on what 999 calls could be left...

A broken leg, I suppose. It’s not going to get any more broken. A chronic nosebleed, perhaps. I can’t recall reading about anyone actually dying from a nosebleed.

Genius! So because a daytime TV presenter hasn't been on the receiving end (what a surprise) of limb threatening fractures, or shock-inducing epistaxis, and because he can't imagine they ever could be serious, means they don't happen...!!
(I appreciate this isn't the original point, but stupidity like this really defers from any other 'facts' he may put into his 'study'...)

On point - humans [b]need [/b]to eat. Humans in stressful, physical roles, [b]should [/b]eat and drink regularly.
The skill is deciding when this is appropriate, or when it isn't.

Unfortunately, I can completely see the current demand on the NHS/Emergency servicing being such that, [b]unless there is a rota'd/structured break[/b], it simply ain't gonna happen by chance...

DrP

When Mrs sog was taken bad, the two guys at base left their break to help the paramedic on scene. Thanks, guys.

I wonder if Mr Madeley has ever worked twelve-hour shifts.

I wonder if Mr Madeley has ever worked [s]twelve-hour shifts.[/s] for a living?

Just saying...

you will find your lunch time is not included in your pay

[img] [/img]

Surely to qualify as the 'Nations favourite TV Couple'........ you shows rating need to have not tumbled to 11,000 viewers before your programme got binned three and half years ago

you will find your lunch time is not included in your pay

Is there much competition for "nation's favourite TV couple"?

Unfortunately, I can completely see the current demand on the NHS/Emergency servicing being such that, unless there is a rota'd/structured break, it simply ain't gonna happen by chance...

Sadly, as far as I can see, it'll only get worse before it gets better.
Our lot have been panned by the press this weekend for offering control staff £250 bonuses to try and refer more calls to NHS redirect or walk in centres. They're offering frontline staff double and treble time to cover extra vehicles and they still can't cover them. Realistically the meal break issue is getting bumped further and further down the list of problems needing fixed. I can't see how they will solve the problem without more staff or lower call volumes, neither if which the seem able to do.

Is there much competition for "nation's favourite TV couple"?

Up here in Scotchland we used to do a 40 hour week of which 2.5 hours was unpaid.
This meant that the 2.5 hours was our own and unless we took a small additional annual payment of £250 so they could intterupt our breaks to attend jobs.
Thing is, most of us remember a time when you wouldnt get any break in a shift (albeit probably an eight hour one give or take an hour or two of unpaid OT) so the majority of folk didnt take the payment and couldnt be belled out during breaks.
The sad incident in Tomintoul (remember- the one where a techy was hung out to dry and the service only apologised after the desceased pt's family asked for the call transcript to be released that showed he wasnt asked to attend the call 3 blocks away) prompted the Scottish Govt to step in and reduce our working week to 37.5 hours inclusive of breaks.
Sounds great, means we're getting paid for our breaks- but the reality is that we have our breaks constantly interrupted or dont get them at all- especially on the nightshift when tehres a lot less resources.. we're not supposed to carry any food in the wagons never mind anything hot..
And now apparently we're talking about cutting shifts because an outside firm are optima-tistically telling us that thanks to their amazing algorythm that can predict when and where a 999 will come in we wont need as many staff- or as we call it, cost cutting.
Sheesh.
(Sorry to go on- those in the job will know how frustrating things are at the mo).
Edit- I really could go on and on, and on. But whats the point?

Unfortunately the press always portray us as sitting around with a cup of tea and chip butty, too lazy to bother to turn out to the dying baby. The reality in most urban areas is that crews do back to back emergencies all shift, every shift, and the rest break is the only way they will see food, drink, and 30 minutes downtime. No crew I know would knowingly ignore a genuinely life threatening call, but
1) Crews stood down for break will never know the call is in progress, and
2) A significant majority of 'top priority' calls are nothing of the sort in reality, making it very difficult to create a system where you could be activated for the truly needy.

Tom (just crawling out of my pit after 14 hour shift......)

Althepal; hope you don't mind me asking, do you get a spoilt meal break payment if you are turned out from a break? Like the old Whitley council arrangements?

Don't really want to start an argument Al but I thought you'd excepted a change of conditions offered to you?

We get 2 30 min breaks in a 12 hour shift, we can't be disturbed so hear nothing of any calls nearby us. We have certain times to have these in and if we miss that time we get a £5 payment for missing them. I come from an time where we didn't get paid breaks and accepted it was part of m role. Those days were very different to now were there's hardly a crew that isn't out all shift every shift and finishing late on nearly all those. The days when we got paid breaks well those were different even the busy stations at the time use to get back to station for a break, that just wouldn't happen now.

When I joined in 2000 we worked 12 hr shifts and were paid for 12 hours, the accepted wisdom was that as an emergency service we should be available for the full shift. Mealbreaks were 30 mins and there was usually another vehicle left on station while you ate to cover a call if it came in, a common sense approach and it worked well.

Then the service worked out that instead of paying us for 40 hrs per week they could make our mealbreaks unpaid and move us all onto 37.5 hr contracts saving a bundle.

The hiccup came when some legal bod told them that if staff are only paid for 11.5 hrs of a 12 hr shift then you have to stand them down uninterrupted for that period.... this provoked panic stations in my trust and an amicable deal was made whereby the service chucked us roughly £1000 (for the year) to be available for the entire shift even though our contracts stated the new 37.5 hr arrangement.
This also worked well for a while.

Then the service wanted to save more money so took away the 'mealbreak payment' as it had become known.
Again the legal bods told the service that you can't make staff work during unpaid time, its illegal.... so the service threatened to report Paramedics to their registering body if they didn't respond to a call during this unpaid time....nice employer eh?....again it took the solicitors to sort things out and tell the service that you can't force people to work during unpaid time (their own time in other words), this could be done voluntarily but not forced.

The current situation is that breaks remain unpaid and staff choose to be available or not on commencing their break, if they opt to go undisturbed then they won't know about any tragic situations like the one in the article as control won't contact them.

A final point, our director of operations has come from a non medical background. On seeing crews on station she openly remarked that this was wasted time and set about changing the situation. It was lost on her that some staff were reading and learning, some were talking about clinical issues, younger members of staff were engaging in the crew room debrief where crews just talk over horrific jobs with the old heads on station.... she couldn't see it and changed shift patterns and the number of vehicles available to the bare minimum so that crews work for a full day with the only time on station being for the 30 min break....given this new approach is it any wonder most crews opt to go undisturbed?...12 hrs is a long time without a break, as a one off we could all do it but 4 times a week for the duration of a career?...don't be daft.

As usual the front line staff get it in the neck when its a decision taken out of their hands by penny pinching managers.

Sadly the working time directive offers a way out for employers if they want to claim they are an essential or emergency service and breaking during working hours would lead to an unacceptable disruption in service.... unsurprisingly though they don't want to go for this option as it means going back 10 years and actually paying staff for the full shift!

meh, I take groups out on the hill and expedition and do not get a break for 8 hours for a day walk, can be upto 5 days with a group on exped. I likely get paid half as much as you lot as well.
.

When I joined in 2000 we worked 12 hr shifts and were paid for 12 hours, the accepted wisdom was that as an emergency service we should be available for the full shift. Mealbreaks were 30 mins and there was usually another vehicle left on station while you ate to cover a call if it came in, a common sense approach and it worked well.

V8 and Drac. We don't get any annual payment or disturbance payments at all now.
Tomintoul brought things to a head. The service and the unions came up with a few deals involving annual payments and disturbance payments but every time the staff voted against- personally I though the amounts being talked about were pretty generous but the staff knocked them all back, poss thinking they'd have to go higher still...
Eventually the Scottish Gov had to be seen to be doing something about it and had set us a time limit to sort it out but we couldn't, so they stepped in and as a compromise told us our weekly hours would include our breaks and be cut down to 37.5 hours.. The unions accepted this on our behalf without consultation with the staff, leading to a lot of folk leaving to join other unions.
The cut in hours is the only thing we really got out of it, but then, we're being kept late most days now so not much of a difference!

meh, I take groups out on the hill and expedition and do not get a break for 8 hours for a day walk, can be upto 5 days with a group on exped. I likely get paid half as much as you lot as well.

Aren't you self employed?

Ah cheers Al that's more like I remember, I cross over into the Borders now and then I remember talking to the crews about it but forgot the finer details.

When I joined in 2000 we worked 12 hr shifts and were paid for 12 hours, the accepted wisdom was that as an emergency service we should be available for the full shift. Mealbreaks were 30 mins and there was usually another vehicle left on station while you ate to cover a call if it came in, a common sense approach and it worked well.

Seems very sensible indeed but speaking for out trust there would be no crew available to cover the break, even if there was calls don't come in one at a time.

Drac - not self employed. It goes with the territory of being an outdoor instructor.
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As deviant's post suggests, back in the day we had a 'well this is the practical and honest approach that works' ie - you sucked up working the hours, they had some flexibility and you got paid. Worked for so many jobs. I like that. I have rarely experienced anything else in working life, as outdoor instructor and running my own businesses.

Ah my apologises I thought you were. So you walk all day none stop, never stop for tea or a nice sandwich?

Back in the day yeah we did but as he mentioned the conditions were changed some without us be able to negotiate. Like I mentioned I come from an era where it was the case you got paid for breaks. I enter my 24th year this year of working in the Ambulance service, it's changed an awful lot in that time and the work load has got more and more, even more so in the last few years. 12 hours none stop working would be no good at all but most of my shifts are around 13 hours plus often over 14 hours I really can't see why that would nice at all.

meh, I take groups out on the hill and expedition and do not get a break for 8 hours for a day walk, can be upto 5 days with a group on exped. I likely get paid half as much as you lot as well.

See I see this, and I get what you are saying, but what "I hear is I get PAID to go walk on a hill!?!" In a incredulous, pinching yourself kinda voice. You are a lucky sod to make that work...

Code purple plus the muppet....

meh, I take groups out on the hill and expedition and do not get a break for 8 hours for a day walk, can be upto 5 days with a group on exped. I likely get paid half as much as you lot as well.

Says a lot that we likely only pay folk twice what a person earns to walk folk around hills than we do to be paramedics. Given the work they do and the horrors that they see and have to live with, oh and add the threats and abuse they have put up with.

How dare the police not have pay cuts and ambulance staff have breaks when there are poor souls that have to walk In The hills !!

Paramedics are band 5 earning between 21 and 34k depending on shifts and time on the job. On average I get about 200 a month extra for enforced overtime.

So you walk all day none stop, never stop for tea or a nice sandwich?

The thing with ambulances is theyre expensive to lease and to staff, so when one is out on a job, or waiting in a long queue at the local hospital or on route to a less busy/specialist centre is unavailable for patients to use.

If staff are having their designated break, then control will not bother them but send the next nearest vehicle to attend, the actual ambulance staff on the vehicle may not know they could have attended a call.

We could have an ambulance on call on every town and more in cities, but then who is going to pay for them, and then there are the muppets who want an ambulance sending when a taxi could do the same job, and gp,s who request an ambulance instead of antaxi for patient transport.

Yes, but usually this is when you need to keep an eye on the little darlings as they climb the nearest tree, pick an argument, spill the soup over themselves or similar.

How about doing 10 hours and only getting a few cups of water whilst you hand a patient over, not unusual for that to happen to us. I agree we maybe should have a better arrangement but just would not get a break and if they could spare us to have a break why should they pay for that?

I love my job still it's a great job but the workload we're under now and the extra responsibility makes it hard work at time, I do get paid well as a first line manager with so many years service. A lot more than I use to get paid as again I come from a time when we were paid a rather lot lower amount. As mentioned on the Police thread just because you don't have certain conditions does not mean everyone else should do without.

IanMunro - Member
As you said, I think the answer is to kill Richard Medley

Not in the same league as ambulance drivers, but, when I worked for virgin media I often had to deal with complaints from the public about VM techs sat in their vans eating and reading the paper for "an hour" in their street. It took most people a while for the penny to drop when I asked them if they had lunch breaks in their jobs

I agree Drac - the difference between workable and unreasonable - the classic back-in-the-day-we-did-work-some-busy-lunches, but now it is everyday, unreasonable and unfair as we need to squeeze more and more out of the budget (and so people).
I am more frustrated when I here about people who bemoan loosing a few mins of a lunch hour as a meeting overran etc...

STATEMENT from COLLEGE of PARAMEDICS

The 'grotesque truth' of Richard & Judy

2013-01-15

January 15, 2013, Press Dispensary. British paramedics' blood is boiling at an article written by Richard & Judy - Richard Madeley and Judy Finnegan - in Saturday's Daily Express. And members of the College of Paramedics are reporting a backlash from members of the public. They are calling for Richard Madeley to apologise unequivocally and to donate his Daily Express fee to the Ambulance Services Benevolent Fund.

On Saturday January 12, 2013, under the heading "RISKING A BABY'S LIFE FOR LUNCH" the Richard & Judy article asserted the "grotesque truth" that "West Midlands Ambulance Service's finest continued to munch their lunch after a six-week-old baby boy suffered a heart attack" and that "Incredibly, paramedics refused to interrupt their lunch break despite an emergency call for an ambulance to attend"(1).

"It's simply not true that this crew sat 'feeding their faces' knowing that a patient, in this case a baby, was suffering a life-threatening heart condition," said Andy Proctor, Paramedic spokesperson for College of Paramedics members in the West Midlands.

"It's absolutely outrageous to suggest that this or, indeed, any paramedic or ambulance crew would knowingly sit eating a meal whilst a child's life is at threat . We believe that this article has totally misreported the facts in this case."

Proctor continued:
"What he [Madeley] also didn't mention is that a paramedic was already at the patient's side within minutes, providing life-saving treatment.

"Not only has it caused worry and humiliation to the individuals concerned, it has also caused worry and concern in the local population."

Jim Petter, Director of Professional Standards, for the College of Paramedics, said:
"This inaccurate and poorly-researched journalism has resulted in not only abuse and threats to one of the country's most dedicated and selfless professions, paramedics, but also potentially caused anxiety, stress and concern for others, including the family of the patient referred to."

Chair of the College of Paramedics Council and Consultant Paramedic, Professor Andy Newton, said:
"The College of Paramedics has grave concerns over this unfortunate and poorly articulated news story, which not only serves to defame the paramedics and ambulance crews in question, but also undermines the public’s confidence in our emergency services.

"Richard & Judy have long been seen as the bastions of sensibility and fairness and have, I understand, previously complained about inappropriate journalism. However, on this occasion it would appear that they have made a grave error of judgement. It is for this reason that I am, on behalf of our members, writing to complain directly to the Daily Express Newspaper, as they do not fall under the remit of the Press Complaints Commission to investigate our complaint."

Chief Executive of the College of Paramedics, David Hodge said:
"Very importantly, our thoughts are with the child and his family, and we sincerely hope that he is able to make as full a recovery as possible.

"But it is extremely disappointing to read such an article which plainly has not reported all the facts clearly. While we are disappointed that the child had to wait so long for a transporting ambulance when being so ill, I must stress that he was being attended throughout by a life-saving paramedic and that the paramedic crew, so criticised in this article, would not even have been aware of the call.

"We fully support paramedics throughout the UK and also in this instance the West Midlands Ambulance Service. We recognise the immense pressures placed on paramedics, which sometimes involve entire shifts of 12 hours or more, under high pressure, without a proper meal break.

"Paramedics and ambulance crews across the country work under great pressure and under relentless demand. Their well-being has to be considered otherwise they simply wouldn’t be fit to carry out their jobs which are so vital to the public."

The College of Paramedics calls for an unequivocal public apology from Richard Madeley and donation of his fee from the Daily Express to the Ambulance Services Benevolent Fund.

matt_outandabout

Are you seriously comparing what you do, to the pressures a Paramedic faces in a 12 hour shift?

To give an example, (I work to the same rules as Drac except I'm on a Rapid Response car) last weekend on one day, I went to several 'run of the mill' jobs, then a resus, followed immediately by a serious outdoor incident which meant I was out in appalling weather (helicopter had to leave without patient due to deteriorating conditions) and I ended up traveling with the patient as all that was available was an 'urgent' crew (not qualified and paid much less than Paramedics). I eventually got a break 8 hours and 10 minutes after the start of my shift, that is 8 hours 10 minutes without a hot drink or even being able to go for a piss, which I took immediately despite being covered in mud, as I was tired, cold, wet and bloody starving. I had started 'cleaning up' when guess what, bang on 1/2 hour another emergency came in, which I had no option but to attend despite looking like I had waded through The Somme, because "there was no-one else"!

I do wonder if we need to adopt this attitude back with so many of our workers. Some jobs just need 'big' or flexible in breaks and approaches to them, and both workers and employers need to come to a practicable and honourable agreement on how to do this.

So nobody ever works through their lunch in case of "emergency" at work?

Not sure how I missed this thread.

All I have to say is "wow" at Matt. What a great statement, must be tough for you and your clients if you make them walk all day without a break. I suggest a [s]day[/s] week in the NHS to see how lucky you are.

My wife regularly comes home "broken" after a 12 hr shift on the wards, no meal breaks, verbal, physical abuse. Lost count the amount of times she has fallen asleep in the car in the drive as she's completely knackered.

All the best for your next days work, going for a walk.