[Closed] Right to be peeved? Kids nativity content

I'm sure that when they have their Eid Mubarrak or Diwali celebrations they have an equivalent preacher?

Have fired off a email to the school reminding them of their obligations under guidelines regarding worship. Over-reaction or reasonable?

Complete over reaction.

Don't attend the celebration of the 2nd most important Christian Festival if you don't want to be exposed to Christianity.

Pretty uncomfortable for us atheists - I assume pretty uncomfortable for the Muslim and Hindu kids and parents too.

Why would it be uncomfortable for the Muslim and Hindu kids?

The Muslims actually worship the same God just by a different route. Jesus is also in the Koran, so a lot of common ground.

Oh this is a whole world of debate. Our 5yr old now believes in God because his school have indoctrinated/groomed him in to it.

He gets absolutely no balance at all, so its difficult when he comes home, and as parents we have to try and provide balance without upsetting a 5yr old.

You do realise it's a play about Jesus Christ!

If your opinions on religion where that strong, why attend or let her take part at all.

Yes - major over-reaction. I think you owe the school an apology.

I'd have stud up and just asked him. 'God? Show me one single tiny thread of proof...'

Just as well court cases aren't decided on the same basis. 'I have belief and faith that the defendant is guilty, despite not one tiny bit of evidence being presented by the defence'.

Overreaction.

It's Christmas. It's the story of the birth of Christ.

If you're going to participate in Christmas in general then a minutes silent non-participation in a harmless wee prayer's not too much to ask.

If your kids school's anything like ours the kids will receive considerably more instruction in the ways of Islam, Judaism et. al. than they do in Christianity.

Total over reaction.

Did you really go to a widely celebrated Christian festival and not expect to hear something of it?

No, they don't - don't usually have anyone, teachers handle it, which is fine. I've got no problem with Christianity being taught as "this is what some people believe" alongside other religions, it's when the local minister is invited in to proselytize.

What the **** did you go for then? It's a story about Jesus being born. What exactly were you expecting?

Nah hang on a minute, this is a subtle wind up isn't it? Surely?

My four year old is now convinced Jesus is 'KING OF THE WORLD' because the nativity at his nursery and proceeds to shout it whenever we pass anything vaguely relating to the Nativity.(outside a local church on our High Street for example)

However he also has a proper balanced understanding of the true meaning of Christmas by declaring 'I want that' at every advert on Ch5 in between epsiodes of Ben and Holly's Little Kingdom and Peppa Pig.

He'll grow out of both I expect.

Don't attend the celebration of the 2nd most important Christian Festival if you don't want to be exposed to Christianity.

All her friends were participating. It's a wee school play, like doing The King And I or something.

Glasgow City Council's Religious Observance Policy states that:

"It is important that all children, young people and staff can participate with integrity in the forms of Religious Observance devised by the school without compromise to their personal faith stances."

and

"National guidance states that the appropriate place for organised Acts of Worship in the non-denominational sector is within the informal curriculum out with the formal activity of a school."

and

"An approach seeking to convert an audience to one faith or another is not appropriate in the non-denominational sector"

Is it a Church of Scotland School? If so, I'd just suck it up and explain your own views to your kid(s).
FWIW my kids go to the local C of E School (in our village). Part of the deal is an element of religious 'stuff'. In fairness the school is actually pretty good at covering all religions but there is a bloody great big cross on the front with 'Christ dwells in every one of us' on the front of the building 🙂 Most people seem to have no problem ignoring it!
My son is adamant there is no god and happily proclaims this at school. My daughter thinks the exact opposite. I'm hoping she grows out of it...

Any Excuse:

I am sure the kids won't be irrevocably damaged. They probably think Sponge Bob is real too ?

In your spirit of truth and openness, have you also sat her down and told her Santas not real?

That's the trouble when people are too shy to speak up.
It starts as children you know,there was a whole thread about it. 😉

You are worried about God being mentioned in a Nativity play... seriously...

If it bothers you that much, I'm sure you could have asked for your child not to take part.

Personally I think you should be apologizing to the school for being unreasonable

All her friends were participating. It's a wee school play, like doing The King And I or something.

No it's really not.

I doubt you would show such disrespect for other religions and their festivals.

BTW I am not religious.

In your spirit of truth and openness, have you also sat her down and told her Santas not real?

WTF? Nobody told me 😯

I'm torn on it. I'm an atheist but my wife isn't and she's bringing the kids up with a religious foundation, taking them to Church, Sunday School etc. I really can't get that too excited about it - its a good mechanism to teach kids values, so I leave them to it. As far as indoctrinating them, I realise this is the case, but it's harmless ultimately and no different to indoctrinating them to any other of their parents views and opinions - like supporting a particular foot ball club for example. And I won't be trying to influence the kids when they get older and start asking questions - i'll give them my reasons for me being an atheist and hopefully we'll have a sensible debate on the subject and they can draw their own conclusions - though I can't do that with my wife as she gets all arsey when the topic comes up.

I'd feel much better if we simply removed all references to any religion from our institutions and schools. If people want to follow a religion then they can do so in their own time....like biking or Squash or any other activity or pastime people indulge in. I don't see why it has to come into school, other than maybe Religious Education classes.

You are worried about God being mentioned in a Nativity play... seriously...

No. I am annoyed about a minister trying to convert my child in a non-denominational school, against guidelines.

If it bothers you that much, I'm sure you could have asked for your child not to take part.

The nativity show was great, was very happy for her to take part with all her friends. It was the group prayer session afterwards that was unacceptable.

It's Christmas. It's the [u]story[/u] of the birth of Christ.

I've highlighted the important bit.

Pretty uncomfortable for us atheists - I assume pretty uncomfortable for the Muslim and Hindu kids and parents too.

Uncomfortable? In what way? I've added plenty of religious services, catholic, Muslim, cofe, cofs and I'm an atheists, well I would be if I gave it much thought, and wasn't in the slightest bit 'uncomfortable'. I didn't expect any of them to bow to my preferences.

Have fired off a email to the school reminding them of their obligations under guidelines regarding worship. Over-reaction or reasonable?

Complete and utter over reaction. I'm surprised that you've behaved like that to be honest as you've never come across as the precious type.

No it's really not.

It is if you're atheist. What's the difference?

Pretty uncomfortable for us atheists - I assume pretty uncomfortable for the Muslim and Hindu kids and parents too.

Have fired off a email to the school reminding them of their obligations under guidelines regarding worship. Over-reaction or reasonable?

I would suggest that the fact you were attending nativity play may have been a useful indicator of the possibility of religious content?

You were of course, free to not go to it yourself or ask for your kids not to take part in it - I would imagine that you didn't exercise these options because you wish to live as part of a tolerant and multi faith society in which we we are happy to politley respect and where appropriate join in other peoples celebration of their faith, whatever that may be, without needing to self flagellate over their incompatibility with our own beliefs?

Uncomfortable? In what way?

I spent most of my early schooling being made to feel different and somehow bad because I wouldn't close my eyes and bow my head when the visiting minister told me to - I'm not having that for my daughter too.

HUGE over reaction. Just explain to your child that some people believe and some don't and some people believe other things entirely. Each is entitled to their opinion. Did the minister baptise them against their will? All my kids have gone to a CoE school and as have believed as small kids, they've grown up, formed their own opinions and are now happy. Firing off an email? All that that will have done is flagged you as one of those parents.

Oh this is a whole world of debate. Our 5yr old now believes in God because his school have indoctrinated/groomed him in to it.

Maybe you should have picked a school where religion isn't part of the curriculum.

I blame the parents.

Blimey. First it was (nearly) nudey calendars, but now this...

Sounds reasonable enough. I imagine it ruined the nice brand experience you had with the school.

I'm torn on it. I'm an atheist but my wife isn't and she's bringing the kids up with a religious foundation

OT - did you go to the Christening? And did you say the words if you did?

I would suggest that the fact you were at a nativity play may have been a useful indicator of the possibility of religious content.

I would like it to be treated exactly the same as Hanukkah, Diwali, Ramadan etc. It wasn't.

My kids don't believe in God, as a result of my beliefs.

Though the 6 year old has no probs believing in father Christmas and the tooth fairy . At least they only bring positivity.

I was educated by a C of E school, attended all the 'important' church services and took part in traditional 'preachy' Nativity plays.
However. as an adult I have absolutely zero religious beliefs whatsoever.

Basically - don't worry about it. Instead, use your energy raising a normal balanced kid and he'll just make his own call on it.

Total over reaction.

Did you really go to a widely celebrated Christian festival and not expect to hear something of it?

+ lots

Get a grip, the nativity is a story about christ. This type of thing has being going on for years in schools, its traditional.

If I was the recipient of that e.mail I'd file in the 'knobber' folder...

But it is impossible for the story of the nativity to be non denominational. So it is religious whether you like it or not.
Anyway, what's wrong with the making their ones minds up about it? I was brought up surrounded by it. Went to Sunday school and church etc but I'm not even remotely religious. being told about it doesn't mean they're going to be standing in the town centre with a small PA system hurling their opinions at others. It just means they're getting both sides of it.

Really ! Its a Christian celebration. Nativity. Get it? If you don't like the idea then take your kid to a school that ignores Christmas. Better still have a little considration for others. You didn't have to go. I assume that won' t be having next Friday off work.

Maybe you should have picked a school where religion isn't part of the curriculum.

I blame the parents.

Its not a C of E, Catholic or Faith School. What other options do I have?

Oh and I have no issue with my son learning about religion, I do however think he should be allowed to make his own decisions, and school not tell him that God is true and the only one.

I was educated by a C of E school, attended all the 'important' church services and took part in traditional 'preachy' Nativity plays.

This is a Scottish state school which is non-denominational - to quote myself:

Glasgow City Council's Religious Observance Policy states that:

"It is important that all children, young people and staff can participate with integrity in the forms of Religious Observance devised by the school without compromise to their personal faith stances."

and

"National guidance states that the appropriate place for organised Acts of Worship in the non-denominational sector is within the informal curriculum out with the formal activity of a school."

and

"An approach seeking to convert an audience to one faith or another is not appropriate in the non-denominational sector"

I do think it was a bit of an over-reaction. My two attend a school where they push belief a bit and regularly do things at the local church.

As an atheist myself I don't believe any of it (naturally) but I think it is quite reasonable for schools to include and involve children in the Christian Belief. My two choose to believe at the moment but have also asked both me and my wife if we believe – and we give honest answers (my wife doesn't know/wants to believe, I chose not to believe).

I would be perfectly happy if either of my children grew up and still believed, let them make their own mind up.

It's Christmas. It's the story of the birth of Christ.

I've highlighted the important bit.

If you're going to participate in Christmas in general then a minutes silent non-participation in a harmless wee prayer's not too much to ask.

No - this is the important bit.
If you don't want to expose your kids to Christianity, don't tell them that a saint appears magically in their house and leaves them stuff. Don't let them sing "Away in a Manger"
Also don't let them go on school trips to the local Mosque or Synagogue or Gurdwara in case they get told stuff you don't want them to hear.

Heh. This should be a good one.

Our lad's nativity play was in a church and was all god-bothery from start to finish, the carols were of the more religious type, some of the kids did a prayer (although there wasn't any actual preaching from qualified ministers, thankfully, it was long enough as it was). It's not a religious school but the whole son-of-god bit is kind of central to the whole holiday, lots of people expect it, and if you deliberately leave it out then religious types get all pissy about 'banning Christmas' and suchlike nonsense.

Now, I'm about as atheistic as they come. I think the world would be a better place if everyone abandoned their imaginary friends and faced the universe on their own two feet. I was raised as a Christian so my tolerance of religious ceremony is pretty low, I dislike going into churches, and I hate almost everything about Xmas in general (bah humbug). But this is just my personal opinion of things as a grumpy old man, and I think that my kid is going to be smart enough to realise it's all hogwash in a few years anyway. Being part of the overall cultural Xmas thing isn't all bad for tinies, and is probably better than not having that common ground with other kids, or being made to stand out as different because of my beliefs. So I just let it go and bite my tongue.

Personally I doubt I would have contacted the school about it. My wife probably would though, she likes a bit of a fight. You don't owe them an apology though, that's for sure, it clearly matters to you so stick to your guns.

Oh My God.

.

Get a grip, the nativity is a [u]story[/u] about christ.

I've highlighted the important bit.

I would like it to be treated exactly the same as Hanukkah, Diwali, Ramadan etc. It wasn't.

Why, does anyone force you to attend celebrations of any of those events?

It is if you're atheist. What's the difference?

As I said, it's a celebration of a religious festival.

Even if you don't believe any of it, you should treat others people cultures with some respect.

You are coming across as a "Daily Mail reading atheist botherer."

You are no different than the protests to schools celebrating Eid al-Fitr.

If fact you are making yourself look quite foolish.

heaven help us

Even if you don't believe any of it, you should treat others people cultures with some respect.

We sat quietly while the minister said his piece. What was unrespectful about that?

As I said, it's a celebration of a religious festival.

It's a wee play where all the kids get to dress up, wave at their parents, and sing some songs. It was lovely. Just like every other school play I've seen.

You are no different than the protests to schools celebrating Eid al-Fitr.

My daughter's school celebrated Eid, as well as the nativity. In neither case was a preacher invited to try and convert her.

This is a Scottish state school which is non-denominational - to quote myself:

I'm sure it is, all I'm saying is I was heavily surrounded by religion through my schooling but I came out the other side believing it was all mumbo-jumbo.
i.e - Don't spend time worrying about it as a clear thinking person will come to their own conclusions regardless.

Its hardly disrespectful to send a quiet email to the school. Standing up in the middle of it and telling the vicar to **** off would be though.

Sounds like a balanced reaction* to be fair. I cant stand prayers though I'll tolerate all the pageantry for the sake of a bit of social cohesion.

*depending on the actual content of the email of course.

My daughter's school celebrated Eid, as well as the nativity. In neither case was a preacher invited to try and convert her.

Spot on. To emphasise again, I have no problem with the school doing the nativity. It was fun. They do the same for other festivals. My objection was to inviting the minister along to lead an act of worship, which is not done with other religious festivals and is against guidelines.

I spent most of my early schooling being made to feel different and somehow bad because I wouldn't close my eyes and bow my head when the visiting minister told me to - I'm not having that for my daughter too.

If you are so worried about this, why on earth haven't you enrolled your child into a secular school?

Personally, I'm very pro children being taught about religion, so as they get older *they* can decide what they wish to believe in, rather than blindly following the herd. Knowledge in my mind is always better than blissful ignorance.

Unfortunately some atheists in this are as bad as the god squad when it comes to religious education and fit the stereotype that a closed mind, rarely comes with a closed mouth and berate anyone who disagrees with their beliefs or lack of.

[i]Its not a C of E, Catholic or Faith School. What other options do I have?

Oh and I have no issue with my son learning about religion, I do however think he should be allowed to make his own decisions, and school not tell him that God is true and the only one. [/i]

But I presume you buy presents and celebrate Christmas, I know a lot of people think Santa invented Christmas but the clue is in the title of the festival. What about easter - you don't buy eggs for the kids do you?

People do tend to be very hypocritical about stuff like this and only choose to be outraged about certain things then take part in the bits they like.

depending on the actual content of the email of course.

The content of the email was to say that it was a lovely show and the teachers and kids obviously worked really hard, but allowing the minister to give a sermon at the end was jarring and against guidelines.

If you are so worried about this, why on earth haven't you enrolled your child into a secular school?

He did. Try reading the thread.

If you are so worried about this, why on earth haven't you enrolled your child into a secular school?

It is. It is a non-denominational Scottish state school. Do I need to quote the guidelines again?

Peeve away mate, the fact that none of the objections here address your actual point show something IMO.

oh for the love of god

Unfortunately some atheists in this are as bad as the god squad insofar education and fit the stereotype that a closed mind, rarely comes with a closed mouth and berate anyone who disagrees with their beliefs or lack of.

Your militant Agnostics would hold that Atheism is just as much a faith as any of the religions.

Ben - Where are the guidelines because I would be intrigued to read them.

At our son's school they had a preacher come over from Africa to chat to them about 'Africa'

It was really interesting him talking about the animals, the music, the way of life, but when he started saying how God will not be happy if they misbehave, and God is watching over them all the time, IMO that was OTT

Do I need to quote the guidelines again?

No. Please don't.

But I presume you buy presents and celebrate Christmas

I celebrated Diwali once, as I happened to be in India at the time. I'm pretty sure it doesn't make me a Hindu.

We sat quietly while the minister said his piece. What was unrespectful about that?

Except the head teacher now has to respond to your email, speak to the minister to let him know there was a complaint, organise all the next years events to be different, let the council know another complaint came it...

You have shown lack of respect to the head and teachers, the minister and the school community by over reacting and making things formal.

I'm sure that when they have their Eid Mubarrak or Diwali celebrations they have an equivalent preacher?

No, they don't - don't usually have anyone, teachers handle it, which is fine

You've got a point. I'm not sure I'd have the equivalent reaction, but you have a point.

You have shown lack of respect to the head and teachers, the minister and the school community by over reacting and making things formal.

Err, no. He thinks that the school has failed to comply with its own published guidelines, and has written to them as a result.

Ben - Where are the guidelines because I would be intrigued to read them.

https://www.glasgow.gov.uk/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=12233&p=0

OK, I missed that part, apologies; I'm kind surprised that secular school would even mark a religious festival as couldn't any celebration be seen as trying to convert people?

Your militant Agnostics would hold that Atheism is just as much a faith as any of the religions.

I was educated by a C of E school, attended all the 'important' church services and took part in traditional 'preachy' Nativity plays.
However. as an adult I have absolutely zero religious beliefs whatsoever.

+1

Although I remember getting really quite upset by it all as a Teenager trying to figure it all out, I even made some attempt to read the Bible cover to cover.

My kids won't be christened and won't be going to a CoE school unless there's no other option (I think it's rubbish that schools are religious at all TBH, but hat seems to be the future with academy being religious too). In fact I;d go as far as trying to get them into some other faith school. At least then there'd be some chance of it being a "these people believe this, those people believe that" type conversation.

You have shown lack of respect to the head and teachers, the minister and the school community

And God. Don't forget God.

A very polite email reminding the school of their guidelines is not disrespectful. It's quite possible that the head teacher was as surprised as we were by the sermon at the end, and would welcome feedback.

Muslim and Hindu kids

There is no such thing as Muslim, Hindu or even Christian kids - they're just kids whose parents are Muslim, Hindu or Christian and are currently been indoctrinated/brain washed into those faiths.

All children are born atheists (a lack of belief in any gods) until the brain washing takes hold.

But I presume you buy presents and celebrate Christmas, I know a lot of people think Santa invented Christmas but the clue is in the title of the festival. What about easter - you don't buy eggs for the kids do you?

People do tend to be very hypocritical about stuff like this and only choose to be outraged about certain things then take part in the bits they like.

Gary - Come on now. I am happy that he goes to school and learns about Christianity, I think it is good that he understands what Easter and Christmas are about (without destroying the magical mystery around Santa, which yes I know is a belief in itself) but I am not happy that a 5yr old now believes in God because a school has groomed him.

[i]I celebrated Diwali once, as I happened to be in India at the time. I'm pretty sure it doesn't make me a Hindu.[/i]

Not the same, bringing kids up celebrating christmas and easter whilst playing the staunch athiest line is hypocrisy.

[i]I am not happy that a 5yr old now believes in God because a school has groomed him[/i]

As a parent you've already let him believe Christ existed so it wouldn't take much for him to believe in god.

OK, I missed that part, apologies; I'm kind surprised that secular school would even mark a religious festival as couldn't any celebration be seen as trying to convert people?

...only in the fevered imagination of the Daily Mail. Teaching children about religious and cultural festivals is part of their education, trying to convert them isn't.

I should imagine that the Muslims and Hindus were quite comfortable with the concept of prayer, the former do rather a lot of it.

I think they can do a nativity play, then leave it to individual parents to say its real or it is just a nice story etc to their own kids. I think it is pretty disrespectful of the school and vicar to say it is all true without considering the watching families views on reality.

Yes massive overreaction, good attempt at pc points though. Presumably you aren't celebrating xmas at all in your house then?

Fwiw I spent seven years at primary school reciting the Lords prayer and doing nativity plays and I've grown up a happy atheist and have never believed in God. I can still remember lots of the prayer though it has merged with akela we'll do our best in my head.

There is no such thing as Muslim, Hindu or even Christian kids - they're just kids whose parents are Muslim, Hindu or Christian and are currently been indoctrinated/brain washed into those faiths.

I wasn't going to even go down that argument 😉

Not the same, bringing kids up celebrating christmas and easter whilst playing the staunch athiest line is hypocrisy.

Bringing kids up celebrating the pagan festivals of Yule and Ostara while pretending they're all about Jesus is equally hypocritical if you want to go down that line.

Not the same, bringing kids up celebrating christmas and easter whilst playing the staunch athiest line is hypocrisy.

I don't believe in god so you can't have a present? Good one.