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My son came back from a 5 night secondary school camping trip and told me one of the teachers took their pet dog with them. It was a mtb, climbing, walking etc etc trip. The dog went up Snowdon with them and to the beach where it wasn't on a leash. Should the school have allowed this with or without parental permission? Can anyone advise if there is a reason why a dog would be on a school trip. Should I bring it up with the school or let it go as I don't want my son to reap the consequences of my actions... Holiday or school trip? I'm not sure... Am I over-reacting?
In my opinion, yes, you're over-reacting. But I'm a dog owned, so perhaps I'm biased.
Yes, it is great that kids learn about animals of all sorts. Most outdoor centers I have worked at had center / staff animals around - cats and dogs - and unless someone was coming in with allergy or reason not, the dogs were around on session where appropriate.
The bigger risks in life are the ones you accept without question (traveling in car, staying at relatives etc), yet we fuss over the smaller ones (in this case the dog)..On that week statistically your son was more likely to be hurt at school or have a crash in the coach on the way - did you check the coach and driver over?
(BTW, I am a non pet owner, who would never have a dog or cat as a pet)
Can anyone advise if there is a reason why a dog would be on a school trip.
Because kids interacting with animals is a good thing and let's them learn that they're not all snarling beasts who eat kids' faces.
Your child is probably more likely to be bitten by one of his classmates.
[i]Am I over-reacting?[/i]
Quite simply yes you are, massively. It's not something that would ever cross my mind to be even the tiniest bit outraged about.
I'm dog owned too but I wouldn't take my dog to work. My friend thinks I'm over-reacting too. More thought need maybe.
What was the dog's name ?
Looks at Daily Mail on-line for "Child almost savaged by non rabid dog on freebee holiday shocker"
🙄
Perhaps the school were not willing to cover the cost of pet care, in which case, that teacher may not have been willing to go. If the dog had not been allowed, perhaps the trip would have to be cancelled.
Errr. What was son's response to the dog being on the trip?
Another question, is there a reason a dog should not be on a school trip?
An outdoor holiday sounds the perfect place to take the dog. I'm assuming he doesn't actually take the dog to work. School trips are more than work for teachers, they require full 24/7 sacrifice for the duration. Maybe the kids learned a bit about dog ownership on the holiday?
. It's not something that would ever cross my mind to be even the tiniest bit outraged about.
This ^^
I don't think it's appropriate. Not everyone likes dogs, some folk are allergic. Dog owners think dogs are a part of life, but they aren't for everyone.
Not all kids know how to behave around dogs. Not hard to see a situation where a kid who doesn't know how to deal with dogs annoys it and gets bitten. At the very least, it could cause a little stress and make someone's school trip a bit less fun.
You should shoot the teacher, the dog, your child and then shoot yourself in the penis to avoid this kind of trouble in the future.
My 17 yr old is at the army college in Harrogate at the minute and we went up for a family day a few weeks ago. I was pleasantly surprised to see that his NCO's Great Dane is living in the barracks with them. All the lads seemed to love it and the dog certainly got loads of attention.
What was the dog's name ?
Why are you the teacher or friend of? 😉
Yes, you are over-reacting ...
Think of those poor children in the 3rd world that have to run the gauntlet of dogs from their neighbour everyday to go to school.
Yes, I did but then I had a pipe to whack them ... 😈
allthepies - MemberWhat was the dog's name ?
Good point. No responsible parent would want their child to associate with a dog called Tyson.
. Not everyone likes dogs, some folk are allergic.
Then those that don't will keep away or learn dogs are actually nice. One of the many questions asked by Teachers before school trips is the allergies one.
What was the dog's name ?
Tyler.
Not all kids know how to behave around dogs. Not hard to see a situation where a kid who doesn't know how to deal with dogs annoys it and gets bitten
Haven't you almost answered your own statement there?
It was a probably a good learning experience, schools are supposed to do that sort of thing I believe!
I don't think he was forcibly rubbing people with the dog... I'm allergic to feathers, I didn't demand the school and all places we visited by stripped of any decorative feathers as a child...some folk are allergic.
Is the staff member a first aider? Does the staff member have detailed knowledge of the area the school visited? Is there any chance that taking the dog was the only way that the staff member could go on the trip? Do you consider five days away looking after the most precious thing a parent has a holiday? Is the dog a pitbull? Has the dog been CRB checked? Was it off the leash during other times of the adventure holiday fully paid for by charging the students extra?
I say ring the Daily Mail and complain.
Has the dog been CRB checked?
Dammit you're right - he could be a serial leg humper 😉
OK point taken. I over-reacted...
😆Has the dog been CRB checked?
I can assure you it wasn't a holiday for the teacher.
Someone will no doubt complain and that'll be another activity that won't take place next year. How many of you went on a proper school exchange to another country when you were younger? If you're over 50 there's a good chance you did, if you're under 20 the answer is no, though you may have been on a trip to Disneyland Paris stopping in hotels and never speaking French.
What was the dog's name?
Germany.
never speaking French.
Pretty useless language to know these days anyway.
Not all kids know how to behave around dogs.
Good point.
Also, not all kids can do sums or write gud.
Sorry, definite over-reaction. I'm sure that the teacher wouldn't have taken his dog if it was a rabid, snarling beast. Dogs and outdoor experiences go together very well, I'm sure all the kids loved having him (the dog) along on their trip. Have you asked your son if he was pleased that the dog came too?
I'm not a dog owner, never have been, but I'm very happy for my boys to learn to interact with animals, and an outdoor-themed trip sounds like the ideal opportunity.
I'm under 50 and went on trip to France, didn't really need to speak French as all the places we visited spoke English. My daughter gets the chance to go to France in a fe years before she starts high school. So nothing changed there.
i think it is reasonable to expect the school to ask but i dont really see it as a big problem
If they did take a dog [ having completed the risk assessments for activity breaks] then they need to have mentioned the dog in the risk assessment and have done things to control for this- seriously Health and safety gone mad innit
Given they can personally be sued for manslaughter if the trip goes wrong they treat these very seriously
All risk should be mentioned to parents if only to cover your arse from the over sensitive souls suing you
If you really want to kick up a fuss ask to see the risk assessment for the trip.
FWIW they were an absolute pain in the arse to do you had to think of everything possible that could happen and I do think the school should have mentioned it to you
Personally I think there is no more risk from a dog than from say abseiling but i would expect to tell parents of either and they would be on my RA
A trip or a proper exchange, Drac? Staying in a non-paid foreign family and then having their kid to stay. I voluntarily accompany 30 kids to Germany each year and then organise activities for the German kids when they coem to France, but Madame has given up trying to organise an exchange with a school in England. Parents are too protective and teachers too frightened of what they will be accused of.
Then those that don't will keep away or learn dogs are actually nice.
That's your opinion, shouldn't have to force it on someone else.
Look, I wouldn't particularly be outraged about this, and I wouldn't complain, but this smacks of the old 'oh it's just common sense' argument. Just because dog owners and dog lovers like having dogs around, doesn't mean it should be taken for granted.
but this smacks of the old 'oh it's just common sense' argument.
And what a terrible argument that is, when everyone knows just how overrated "commonsense" is.
Having read Junkyard's post I understand why teachers in England no longer want to organise anything outside school for kids. "risk assessment ... personally sued for manslaughter" (charged with manslaughter surely). Barmy island.
40% of households in the UK have dogs. They're everywhere and largely unavoidable. Knowing how to behave around dogs is an important life skill that all children should learn, like crossing the road, basic hygiene and swimming. I think schools are a good place to learn these things.
It reveals that 53 children and six adults have died on school trips since 1985. In the last 10 years the rate has risen slightly, with 33 deaths reported.
that is the figure to 2007 FWIW
Yes personally charged ie the teachers not the school
40% of households in the UK have [s]dogs[/s]done drugs. They're everywhere and largely unavoidable. Knowing how to behave around [s]dogs[/s]drugs is an important life skill
Still think the parents should decide that and not the school though i dont disagree- i used that to show it was up tp parents to decide though it should not be taken too seriously as an analogy
To the OP: Perhaps you may find it useful to identify when and where you gained your fear of dogs.
Seriously.
The OP owns a dog.
Could the children have brought their dogs as well, or was it just the person in charge of the outing who was allowed to, seems like discrimination.
It reveals that 53 children and six adults have died on school trips since 1985. In the last 10 years the rate has risen slightly, with 33 deaths reported.
I wonder how many of those deaths were on 'activities', in accommodation, traveling in bus etc etc Be interesting to see the breakdown.
Does the school ask parents to give permission when delivering sex ed, drugs awareness, anti smoking and traffic skills? I'd hope that all parents would like their children to unafraid of dogs and to be confident.
[url= http://www.sudbourne.com/Pupils/Our-School-Dog ]Our School Dog[/url]
[i]Murphy is very good around children of all ages. We ask that children wash their hands after petting him. Children get to take Murphy for walks or come and play with him and read to him in Miss Henderson's office if they have been brilliant in class. We understand that some parents may not want their child interacting with Murphy, so any contact with Murphy is entirely voluntary.
We love having Murphy at Sudbourne - he helps the children learn how to be safe around dogs, how to look after a pet properly, is a friend to talk to (who won't answer back!), and generally brings a smile to our faces with his enthusiasm for life.[/i]
[i]let's them learn that they're not all snarling beasts who eat kids' faces. [/i]
What kind of shit dog doesn't attack children?
On that week statistically your son was more likely to be hurt at school or have a crash in the coach on the way - did you check the coach and driver over?
As a guess, this probably accounts for most of those 53 deaths mentioned above.
There's a voluntary trade organisation which sets a minimum standard for coach hire companies for schools.
I can't remember the name of it now, but if you are genuinely concerned about kids safety on school trips, it would be worth finding out who they are and insisting the school uses one of their members.
midsquestgraham - it was a reflection of experience, that parents often worry about the things that are not really a risk (e.g. climbing at an outdoor centre), compared to something we do every day (e.g. get in a car or bus)
It's only a matter of time until a teachers dog grooms a pupil and they elope together.
**SPOILER**
the dog gets put down (but the pupil has his babies)
To the OP: Perhaps you may find it useful to identify when and where you gained your fear of dogs.
For me, it was when I got bitten several times as a young kid. Fairly straightforward psychological issue, don't you think? Aggressive things with teeth attacks little kid, I think fear is a reasonable response don't you?
By the way, sex ed, drugs ed etc are on the curriculum. Dog ed is not.
Also by the way, I don't mind dogs any more, but I don't think I'd take mine on a school trip. If I didn't have a reliable way of looking after him when I wasn't there, I wouldn't have one.
Does the school ask parents to give permission when delivering sex ed, drugs awareness, anti smoking and traffic skills? I'd hope that all parents would like their children to unafraid of dogs and to be confident.
they do for sex education the primary school did for my kids on traffic skills for the bit out of school
Not sure on current policy in drugs or anti smoking but given it says dont i doubt parents object
Dogs are extra curricular so i would expect to ask the parent tbh
did you check the coach and driver over?
Yes CRB check [ now DFS ] for the driver
MOT for the vehicle
insurance for vehicle and liability for employer
Drivers licence for vehicle
Visual check of vehicle on arrival and check the driver was not "erratic"
No speeding
A teacher could intervene if the driving was considered unsafe/erratic or dangerous
Imagine the school used one with an unlicensed driver without insurance on an unsafe coach and they were pissed and crashed
Granted all of that is highly unlikely
We had one where the minibus back door would not shut
Imagine if someone fell out of that
One doing 90 on the Mway as he was late for his next job etc
Are you for real?. jesus, my kids went to school and there was an unauthorised fly in the room, actually tonight, we had a pet moth flying about, my god this is really getting out of hand.................
what me?
I am real and I am simply informing you of the law and the process as used by an LEA.
If you wish to shoot the messenger or have your kid go on an uninsured vehicle with an unsafe driver to an unlicensed centre with unskilled staff with no insurance to do abseiling then please done let me stop you.
It is probably no more dangerous than a moth or a fly in the room apparently
There were 16 kids, 4 teachers, one sixth former, one dog and two mini buses driven by teachers. Its not just the safety angle, I think parents and kids alike should have been informed fully about the trip and what was involved when they were asked if they wanted to go on the trip. I don't see how the teacher could have fulfilled their responsibilities to the kids if they were caring for the dog. For example the teacher didn't go on the mtb day. I can only make an informed choice if I have all the facts. I wonder if the school is even aware that the dog went. I understand that life is full of danger and the dog, if like my dog, is probably way down the list of hazards. However from a principles point of view I think I should have been made aware the dog was going to be taken. My son is well versed in pet care and its responsibility he doesn't need lessons from anyone on this.
Also by the way, I don't mind dogs any more, but I don't think I'd take mine on a school trip. If I didn't have a reliable way of looking after him when I wasn't there, I wouldn't have one.
I'm sure that was fully considered. There were probably a number of students who would be more than happy to look after the dog, as an alternative to an activity they weren't keen on.
I don't see how the teacher could have fulfilled their responsibilities to the kids if they were caring for the dog.
So, how, exactly, d'you think the teacher manages during a regular school week?
They couldn't possibly leave said pet at home, could they? Oh, the humanity! Leaving a dog unattended in a house while swanning off to work for eight or ten hours!
There ought to be a law against it! 🙄
I'm sure that was fully considered.
then it will be in the risk assemsne but it still does not explain why parents were not told
What if there had been a Muslim child there?
So, how, exactly, d'you think the teacher manages during a regular school week?
Going out on a limb I would suggest that when the children are in their care [in loco parentis] the dog is not under their care what with it not being there and all that.
My son is well versed in pet care and its responsibility he doesn't need lessons from anyone on this.
But the school needs to take him on a "mtb day" ? Why ?
What if there had been a Muslim child there?
It'd give them a good opportunity to see that their religion is a bit daft on the subject of dogs. Or they could just avoid being slobbered by it.
books Ben in for mandatory cultural diversity training 😉
🙂
It does slightly annoy me that a small person, too young to have made their own mind up about anything yet, can be described as a "Muslim child" (or Christian or Buddhist or whatever).
But then we're bringing our daughter up as Atheist Vegetarian, so perhaps I'm being hypocritical.
aetheist vegan nods sagely we all make choices for our kids.
The teacher wouldn't have been responsible during the MTBing even if present, The MTB guide would have been.
If beginning to suspect the OP has a nasty case of most-Brits-hate-teachers disease.
i'd be more worried about how much alcohol the teachers were consuming, from some of the schools i've worked with teachers seem to think its ok to get totally rat arsed while in charge of a bunch of kids
So, how, exactly, d'you think the teacher manages during a regular school week?
They couldn't possibly leave said pet at home, could they? Oh, the humanity! Leaving a dog unattended in a house while swanning off to work for eight or ten hours!
There ought to be a law against it!
The dog would have been left in a mini bus or car or tent for the teacher to take part in the mtb day. The teacher could not do this hence why they didn't attend on the mtb day. Not so during a working week.
The teacher wouldn't have been responsible during the MTBing even if present, The MTB guide would have been
The teachers were the mtb guides. In fact one teacher told my son their bike cost 4k.
Im beginning to suspect the OP has a nasty case of most-Brits-hate-teachers disease.
If you mean I have no respect for teachers who take the piss by doing what they want irrespective of any one else and use school trips as a freebie hol then you're right I have no respect for that teacher. as for other teachers kudos to them. I couldn't be a teacher.
The teachers were the mtb guides. In fact one teacher told my son their bike cost 4k.
Is that the only qualification for being an MTB guide these days? Cool, will set myself up today. Glad I don't have to do any of that pesky first aid, outdoorsy knowledge, navigation stuff, so long as I have a £4000 bike I'm in. 🙂
What was the dog's name?
Fenton.
😯 🙄 😯
I think it's taking the piss and all this "kids should learn how to be around dogs" is disingenuous bollocks by dog owners who can't imagine why their animals aren't always loveable.
I remember the days when you were always grumpy konabunny, and very entertaining it was too.
So it's nice to see a little bit of the ol' magic being played out again.
Massively over-reacting. Ten years ago my teachers took dogs with them on walking / cycling trips and none of us got bitten*.
We fell off, fell into rivers, grazed knees, got sunburnt despite wearing sunblock, then in the evenings we watched films while the teachers had a pint or two. Funnily enough, our parents didn't care or complain about this.
Actually, I can't believe you're complaining about this. It's a sign of the miserable state of modern society where you're not even sure whether to feel offended or upset that someone *dared* to do something without consulting you. What a surprise - we now have teachers afraid to do anything and kids that feel as though they are always right.
Grow up, FFS.
* I do believe someone got nipped as they whizzed down a zip-wire while goading the dog who was running underneath, at which point said dog jumped up while barking and snagged a tooth on child's arse. We thought it was pretty funny at the time, and this was only 15 years ago.
I agree with Flaperon.
My son told me they have a class hamster,
I'm shocked by this and will be campaigning outside the school gates for an investigation.
Get a life.
Seriously I hope O.P. is a troll.
If you mean I have no respect for teachers who take the piss by doing what they want irrespective of any one else and use school trips as a freebie hol then you're right I have no respect for that teacher. as for other teachers kudos to them. I couldn't be a teacher.
try going on and organising a school trip and then you might not type as much shit. I was actally wondering if i could take my dog on next years biology field trip. Leaving the mrs to look after kid and dog awhile I'm away is a big ask. Maybe I should just not bother taking a load of kids to the Yorkshire Dales for a week.
16 children on a holiday for 5 days ? Sounds like Hell. I fail to see how a dog could make that any worse... I guess the children might slaughter it and eat it, so there is some risk.
Massively over-reacting. Ten years ago my teachers took dogs with them on walking / cycling trips and none of us got bitten*.We fell off, fell into rivers, grazed knees, got sunburnt despite wearing sunblock, then in the evenings we watched films while the teachers had a pint or two. Funnily enough, our parents didn't care or complain about this.
We had a science teacher who used to take us away during the school holidays on museum trips, camping, walking, all sorts. He had a cottage up in Shropshire so we'd all camp in his back garden. I remember him and another teacher taking us potholing in Derbyshire once (neither of them had any qualiications in caving whatsoever and in fact we had to rescue one of the teachers when he got stuck in a particularly tight section of cave!).
It was usually about 6-8 of us kids (we were all 15-16), he used to ask the ones he knew wouldn't be any trouble and were interested enough to go on educational trips like that.
It was great but sadly I can't see that ever happening nowadays. 🙁 But that teacher taught us all about navigation, star gazing, map reading... We even used to pick mushrooms (under his guidance) and cook them up for tea, BBQ in his back garden. Also with his dog running around.
How did we ever survive? 😉
Massively over-reacting. Ten years ago my teachers took dogs with them on walking / cycling trips and none of us got bitten
I have never been bitten by a dog or stabbed with a knife or raped so i can safely assume neither of things ever happen 😕
I fail to see how a dog could make that any worse.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/ballymena-dog-attack-teachers-alaskan-2007786
Less than one week ago teachers dog attacking a pupil - can you see now?
Again I dont see a huge problem per se amd I would not have worried were it my kids but the school does IMHO and IME need to mention this to parents as it is a risk.
If the teachers led the MTB session I would be interested in seeing the risk assessment and insurance for that- PS I went on one on my own bike but I was not leading it in any way shape or form- as I was awesome naturally I took the rigid SS:wink: - I think this is more likely to be the case
EDIT: just for clarity the risk assesmnet culture largely arose because parents would sue the school/education authority for minor injuries that could occur on any any activity and the pay out was related to the risk assessment and what you had done to minimise the risks. the fact you had informed the parents of the risk also mitigated the liability. It was never the LEA or the teachers going - you know what we need masses of Risk Assessment
RE the teacher and the cottage - it is a shame we cannot do stuff like that anymore but I would personally be terrified of the consequences fo doing that these days from a grooming claim to a personal liability claim for injury.
Tis a shame but the public gets waht the public wants
What if there had been a Muslim child there?
More likely to be killed by their own religious nutters than a teachers dog looking at what happened in Nigeria today. Dozens of schools have been burned in attacks by Islamists since 2010.