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Racism
Not really, - more like embellishment of history and theatrics.
Remember Vichy France had majority support in 1940 and …
The key component of Vichy's ideology was Anglophobia.[14] In part, Vichy's virulent Anglophobia was due to its leaders' personal dislike of the British, as Marshal Pétain, Pierre Laval and Admiral François Darlan were all Anglophobes.[15] As early as February 1936, Pétain had told the Italian Ambassador to France that "England has always been France's most implacable enemy"; he went on to say that France had "two hereditary enemies", namely Germany and Britain, with the latter being easily the more dangerous of the two; and he wanted a Franco-German-Italian alliance that would partition the British Empire, an event that Pétain claimed would solve all of the economic problems caused by the Great Depression.[16] Beyond that, in order to justify both the armistice with Germany and the Révolution nationale, Vichy needed to portray the French declaration of war on Germany as a hideous mistake, and the French society under the Third Republic as degenerate and rotten.[17] The Révolution nationale together with Pétain's policy of la France seule ("France alone") were meant to "regenerate" France from la décadence that was said to have destroyed French society and brought about the defeat of 1940. Such a harsh critique of French society could only generate so much support, and as such Vichy blamed French problems on various "enemies" of France, the chief of which was Britain, the "eternal enemy" that had supposedly conspired via Masonic lodges first to weaken France and then to pressure France into declaring war on Germany in 1939.[17]
No other nation was attacked as frequently and violently as Britain was in Vichy propaganda.[18] In Pétain's radio speeches, Britain was always portrayed as the "Other", a nation that was the complete antithesis of everything good in France, the blood-soaked "perfidious Albion" and the relentless "eternal enemy" of France whose ruthlessness knew no bounds.[19] The chief themes of Vichy Anglophobia were British "selfishness" in using and abandoning France after instigating wars, British "treachery" and British plans to take over French colonies.[20] The three examples that were used to illustrate these themes were the Dunkirk evacuation in May 1940, the Royal Navy attack at Mers-el-Kébir on the French Mediterranean fleet that killed over 1,300 French sailors in July 1940, and the failed Anglo-Free French attempt to seize Dakar in September 1940.[21] Typical of Vichy anti-British propaganda was the widely distributed pamphlet published in August 1940 and written by self-proclaimed "professional Anglophobe" Henri Béraud titled Faut-il réduire l'Angleterre en esclavage? ("Should England Be Reduced to Slavery?"); the question in the title was merely rhetorical.[22] Additionally, Vichy mixed Anglophobia with racism and antisemitism to portray the British as a racially degenerate "mixed race" working for Jewish capitalists, in contrast to the "racially pure" peoples on the continent of Europe who were building a "New Order".[23] In an interview conducted by Béraud with Admiral Darlan published in Gringoire newspaper in 1941, Darlan was quoted as saying that if the "New Order" failed in Europe it would mean "...here in France, the return to power of the Jews and Freemasons subservient to Anglo-Saxon policy".[24]
So when Tpbiker asked why they put their guns down, if you read around the subject a bit....you'll see that I quite rightly pointed out it was because a lot of them at the time were fascist leaning anglophobic anti-semites who cared about their economy and way of life above all else and were prepared to put up with the situation that they found themselves in.
That's not to say they are like that now - but I do see parallels in today in terms the pan-European fascism that was taking root at the time and the inexplicable support among far right parties like the Lega Nord and AfD for the European Union now etc.
You forgot ukip there trollboy!
The French only like fighting when it involves shooting unarmed peasants in far east Asia and North Africa.
Sorry, but your statement is propogating pathetic racist stereotypes, have you forgotten WWI, the free French army etc, etc............................
Two years ago,whilst road biking in North Corsica,came around a bend in the road,to be confronted by a bloke in camouflage,standing in middle of road,armed with a rifle,with telescopic sight.Then,a short distance further,another one,then again,another one.Four in total,probably hunting wild pigs or boar.Since 2000,350 people have been killed in hunting accidents in France,and between 100 and 150 wounded annually,during hunting season.
Apologies for derailing the tread with my dickish comment. Written out of anger at the situation but inappropriate all the same.
This news is uncomfortable reading for me for 2 reasons, firstly I have ridden on those trails, and secondly I hate guns and bloodsport.
No excuse though.
Hunting occurs in the UK too. Cycling up through a forest on a private estate in the Brecon Beacons a friend and I met twenty or thirty blokes dressed in camo. they told us that their guns were loaded and that they were waiting for their dogs to flush out a fox or two.
Likewise, stalking season in Scotland involves firearms. However, neither of the two scenarios occur on 'public' land where there is always free access- I think.
I'm pretty certain that I have ridden where Marc Sutton was shot, dropping down from Super Morzine to Montriond. IF it is where I think it is, I seem to recall that there are small signs dotted around that give the permitted times and dates of hunting. They are not warning signs however. Even if they were warning signs though, it would not be the rider's fault in the event of an accident, surely.
Just like fishing for me.
I think the worst you could do if you made a mistake fishing would be to stick a hook in someone. Guns in public places are for trained, accountable pros who observe proper safety procedures, not punters.
Guns in public places are for trained, accountable pros who observe proper safety procedures, not punters.
If only we could apply that to cars.
When all said and done, the hunter obviously wasn't able to see what he was shooting at - which seems like the minimum requirement when you are shooting at something - particularly when on public land.
Will be interesting to see what happens to the shooter - a large part of that towns summer income comes from cyclists (one would assume).
My thoughts are with the family and friends of the poor bloke shot whilst cycling in the woods. I had no idea how lax the attitude to hunting was in France. The best outcome here would be an uproar from other cyclists, walkers, climbers etc refusing to visit the area. Hit them where it hurts which, sadly, is in the wallet.
It would be a shame for people's first response to be to boycott the Morzine Valley as a result of this tragedy. Remember there are loads of people in the pds towns just like Marc who rely on people like us for their livelihoods, not least of all his partner. As his friends have said on other social media, Marc would want people to get out and ride and hike and continue to make the most of the mountains and hopefully be part of getting the current situation changed for the better.
There is a movement to try and change the hunting laws at least locally if not nationally You could do this a lot worse than write to the marie of Morzine or montriond expressing your concerns. I will be handing delivering my own letter next week.
In respect of personal safety another local has sourced some hi visibility riding/hiking shirts at cost and available through Morzine source magazine #rideformarc but remember for most visitors your visit will not coincide with the hunting season.
For those like me that do spend some interseason time around there there's an app called Chasseco that shows hunt areas and dates. It covers the whole country so may be of use to you wherever and whenever you go.
Some links for my previous post that I couldnt paste on my phone:
https://www.morzinesourcemagazine.com/product/rideformarc-jersey/
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.axory.chasseco&hl=en_GB
http://www.mairie-montriond.fr/Francais
Who knows what happened - did they have an arguement - did they have history - either way I have cancelled my trip to Morzine for next June.
Also Guns have no place in Society and should only be used by criminals and the state.
Who knows what happened – did they have an arguement – did they have history – either way I have cancelled my trip to Morzine for next June.
Did you read the articles posted? They tell you most of it and certainly don't indicate any kind of premeditation or intent, just negligence and poor judgement which is inexcusable.
either way I have cancelled my trip to Morzine for next June.
Good troll
+1 for stoners post
I've seen and heard a few guns and hunts in Corsica & Cyprus over the years but the nearest I got to getting shot was surprising a local pheasant shoot just as sir Edward Dashwood was taking aim across the bridleway I was on - I tend to just give any local shoots a wide birth now days. My heart goes out to Marc and his family 😞
Apologies
Something not seen on the internet very often, so well done.
I have cancelled my trip to Morzine for next June
Why? They don't hunt in June. That's a really knee-jerk reaction which the locals would neither need nor want.
As much as I applaud their initiative with those jerseys, when the next walker/hiker/rider gets shot in error will their be blame attributed if they are not wearing hi-vis?
Well I do know those involved so please keep this post on track if it continues for the sake of friends and family.
If you want to constructively help and don't agree that the laws for hunting in France are as well established as should be in areas that have active sports year round then please take a look at the facebook page Chrissy has setup:
The long and short of it is there is an app that tells you areas that are "active" however the app is neither accurate or well advertised. The hunting takes over the Morzine area for 4 days a week (inc sat and sun) and runs over into the ski season (Jan).
The laws in my opinion are too loose and the risk should be mediated near tracks that are actively used by walkers or bikers (be it certain safe zones to share the area or a much clearer show of activity).
I have a lot of friends and clients in Morzine and they are actively doing their best to help clarify these rules.
I feel everyone can agree whether pro hunting or not that laws at present are lack luster and dangerous to locals and tourists visiting within the hunting season.
BTW that app is only for the Haute Savoie départrment and not the entire country as stated higher up the thread. I understand that there are similar apps for the Ardèche and Drôme, but the information is only as good as long as it's being provided and updated regularly. If the hunters in these areas are anything like the ones in my locality, I wouldn't be using it to plan my rides.
thanks for that ocrider, I hadnt noticed it stops when you scroll too far away.
No worries, Stoner.
AFAIC the only accurate way of knowing about organised group hunts is by checking the notice board outside the mairie where they have to be displayed (they don't all publish them online, although larger communes will)
at least I wont have to worry next week as Morzine Marie has followed the lead of the Montriond Marie and suspended all hunting for now. If only it could be made indefinite...
In my place they only hunt certain days, always same weekly
There would be revolution if they tried to ban it . Hunters own a lot of land and they are quite happy to let sporting events go through.
Why? They don’t hunt in June. That’s a really knee-jerk reaction which the locals would neither need nor want.
Because the post was clearly sarcasm that went whooshing over several heads?
Ah well, that certainly went over my head. I didn't realise the topic had got onto sarcasm and jokes just yet.
Because the post was clearly sarcasm that went whooshing over several heads?
Really I'd say either out of line/bad taste or misinformed Certainly doesn't read as sarcasm
Certainly doesn’t read as sarcasm
I'm with you on that.
Ambrose - I’m pretty certain that I have ridden where Marc Sutton was shot, dropping down from Super Morzine to Montriond. IF it is where I think it is, I seem to recall that there are small signs dotted around that give the permitted times and dates of hunting. They are not warning signs however. Even if they were warning signs though, it would not be the rider’s fault in the event of an accident, surely.
So have I - 8 weeks ago in fact. We came across that way uphill! from Super Morzine, missed the sharp left back to Morzine and ended coming down (walking) a goat track in the woods to Montriond. As you say, lots of little signs about hunting periods in the woods…...
Because the post was clearly sarcasm that went whooshing over several heads?
Massively generous interpretation.
Did not read like sarcasm at all.
They all sound lovely.
Not a twist in the storyline I was expecting. No mention of a conviction in that story and France is not a country typically renown for UK extradition avoiders choosing to settle in so I'd say proceed with caution in taking that story at face value.
Slightly taken aback by the DM "revelations" (and absolutely agree about not accepting them at face value)
However, unless it's some sort of complex premeditated revenge plot - it doesn't change the fact that a hunter just accidentally shot and killed a cyclist in one of the most popular MTB destinations in Europe, which is outrageous.
The Sun is running a story this morning which is sickening if true 🙁
WTAF?
The fact of the matter is that hunting law in France still needs reform, nothing changes the fact that someone has died because a hunter didn't properly sight his target.
As it's Wednesday the good ole boys have been out shooting since dawn round here...
Wow! Wait and see what the rest of the press make of this.
If true, the campaign will get silently dropped.
Was it murder ?
Surely if its true he would have been convicted of something?
“IF” the story re-raping sister is true that’s the best karma tale I’ve heard.
Even his Mother was pleased he’d been killed! 😮
bloody hell........... that's all i've got at the moment!
Surely if its true he would have been convicted of something?
Mail article implies he spent 6 months inside for assault.
Roughly 15% of sexual violence incidents are reported. Only 6% of reported rape cases end with a conviction.
bloody hell……….. that’s all i’ve got at the moment!
Same here, IF all that is true it may have turned this incident into a good example of karma but as somebody else said it still dosen't change the fact that a rider was still shot and that could have been any mountain biker.
Might put me off buying one of those jerseys though.
Roughly 15% of sexual violence incidents are reported. Only 6% of reported rape cases end with a conviction.
Yes, but it’s not like those alleging the rape were slow to come forward. I feel there is more to come. Whatever, the clean simple message that shooting passers by is very not cool has been muddied somewhat.
As said, regardless of who was hit it still doesn't change the fact that someone has died because of the irresponsible actions of another.
For those taking a pop at hunters in general I can assure you hunters on this side of the water have exactly the same attitude towards those Elmers as you do. Taking pops at everything and anything whilst getting jaked (including songbirds ffs) is about as far from proper hunting as you can get. Barring City ****ers with no ethics the vast majority do it for the pot and wouldn't dream of condoning such actions.
Looks like a good result all round then. An evil bastard got his comeuppance and dodgy hunting practices have been put under the spotlight. Win win.
FFS. It's kind of irrelevant who he is, or what he might have done in the past, so can we all just stop talking about it?
Something doesn't add up here. I'll see what the rest of the media make of it
can we all just stop talking about it?
Are you new here?
It’s kind of irrelevant who he is, or what he might have done in the past
Irrelevant to who? The OP was about how this was a sad event. Turns out not for everybody who knew him. I'd say who he is or what he might have done in the past is relevant to the sentiment of the OP.
So far unsubstantiated. Ffs you sound like a proper paediatrician lyncher.
Irrelevant to who? The OP was about how this was a sad event. Turns out not for everybody who knew him. I’d say who he is or what he might have done in the past is relevant to the sentiment of the OP.
I don't disagree with that, but the main reason for posting the story is that a mountain biker got shot and killed in an area many of us like to visit in both summer and winter seasons. That's the really relevant bit.
The OP wouldn't have posted a story about a tragic knitting accident in Magaluf. It would still have been sad, but not really relevant to this forum.
That’s the really relevant bit.
but the rape bit is interesting as well because if true it will add to the anecdotal evidence that Karma is real and actually works 🙂
I'm not ready to accuse a dead man of anything, especially based on the word of the bloody Mail and Sun!
Trying to forget I share a hobby with the guy, I find it hard to square the idea of this guy who everyone who knows him now, including his Dad, Partner and MIL who seemed to adore they guy with someone who was just pure evil years ago, it doesn't work like that in my experience.
Some people die and the world is a poorer place for it
Some people die and the world is a better place for it
Not relevant either way to the issue though.
Ffs you sound like a proper paediatrician lyncher.
Most bizarre comment for a long time...
Most bizarre comment for a long time…
Its a news story from a while back
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/901723.stm
also Jerry St clair did a brilliant deadpan 1 liner in Phoenix nights
“I haven't seen them this excited since they printed that paedophiles address in the paper
Yeah **** the rule of law and restorative justice, killing people you don't like is much more fun and civilized. Let's all celebrate the death of another human being.
Whooooo
Was it murder ?
I think there is only one person who can answer that question.
I’m confused now. Are we still angry because French people like drinking and shooting or is it okay if they shoot someone who might have committed a sex offense / is a paediatrician?
Are we still angry because French people like drinking and shooting or is it okay if they shoot someone who might have committed a sex offense / is a paediatrician?
1) shooting people is wrong.
2) there's a certain sense of karma if the allegations against this man are correct.
So we can be angry about 1) whilst feeling a bit 'meh' about the loss of this particular life because of 2)
If true it makes the outcome less tragic
But as already mentioned I hope that this doesn't distract from the fact that ultimately the hunter or bullet didn't know the guys past. It could as easily been someone else who is a perfectly decent innocent individual. Next time it happens in all likelyhood it will be.
Read the statement from the girlfriend and dad, not just the headlines in DM and Sun.
After watching a program years ago on how the sun twist stories I wouldn't believe a ****ing thing they printed and I believe the Daily Mail even less.
It's also in the metro. Seems a very extreme story for the paper to make up. It's either true, or the people saying it are the ones at fault imo
The Metro will just be quoting the same people as everyone else.
It sounds extreme, but the fact that you can't libel dead people makes it easier for the paper to rush to publication without even trying to verify something which is based on the word of two related people.
Might be true, might not. But I'm sure we should all be able to empathise with how awful it would be to lose your partner of several years in such a way and then have something like this printed out of the blue a few days later. I feel terribly sorry for her.
There's not just the mother and the sister, but also the ex-girlfriends, one of whom he reportedly went to prison for beating. If the story about him serving time for attacking his ex is true, then it's quite easy to believe the rest. Well, it's depressingly easy to believe regardless - of all the women I know who have been raped or abused, only one spoke to the police. Abusers and predators are often quite capable of being utterly charming and charismatic when they need to be.
That said, it doesn't alter the fact that he should have been able to ride his bike without randomly being shot.
The amount of people citing Karma as an actual thing is amazing. Really?
Genuine question here, do you guys actually believe in the concept of Karma?
In my humble opinion it simply doesn’t exist. If it doesn’t find and punish those that profit from misery, then I don’t think it will come looking for the likes of me any times soon.
edited for spelling
do you guys actually believe in the concept of Karma?
No, it's bollocks.
Pretty sure you mean citing rather than sighting. If I'd sighted karma I'd know it existed.
Edited the spelling, cheers. I struggle with my spelling sometimes
Karma? I barely believe in Korma!
What a shitshow, as Marc Sutton’s Dad said, he’s not here to defend himself, there will never be an investigation into the allegations.
I be interested to know if he did 6 months for assault, but it feels a bit sordid now.
But as already mentioned I hope that this doesn’t distract from the fact that ultimately the hunter or bullet didn’t know the guys past.
Or did they?
Makes you think.
There’s not just the mother and the sister, but also the ex-girlfriends, one of whom he reportedly went to prison for beating. If the story about him serving time for attacking his ex is true, then it’s quite easy to believe the rest.
Not sure there's been any proof of the prison claim.
His girlfriend, her mother and his father all claim it's a pack of lies and there's a family fued going on.
Still the only sources for the allegations are via DM/Metro and the Sun.
I believe in karma.
My ex left me for no other reason than to be with someone with more money. She admitted adultery to my solicitor & said she wanted none of my assets (seeing as I was slowly going bust)
FF 12 years & her (very rich) bloke left her for someone else, going 'bankrupt' at the same time.
She's now in a rented terraced 2 bed house with a wayward daughter, 2 grandkids & a Labrador & no job, living on benefits.
I've got a nice detached 3 bed house, a lovely wife & no mortgage. Not millionaires but wer'e ok.
What goes around, comes around.
Rape and assault claims now reported on the BBC website, nothing new added, just cross quoting from The Sun.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-45887227