Return to Office - WWSTWD?

Having just started a wfh role 6 months ago, just double checked my contract…

Yes, they can easily say no if they have reason to do so. They cannot just refuse point blank with no further discussion.

You're giving way too much weight to this point, they can simply say they believe teams/projects/people perform better in an office environment. They do not need to evidence that and there's no easy way to challenge that.

come on. dig in. what would TJ do…

Do I remember right that he used to be a union rep (like myself)?

If so, he'll understand it's easy for employers to refuse WFH via flexible working.

Having just started a wfh role 6 months ago, just double checked my contract…

my workplace is defined as home, but there is clause that if they establish an office within a reasonable commuting distance from my house, that would be considered my new workplace. doesnt define reasonable though.

Ruddy irritating and typical of US companies

Its a breach of contract in that you have a verbal contract to work from home

Its not constructive dismissal and your right to ask for flexible working is meaningless

Not a huge amount you can do.

I haven't read the whole thread so it may well have already been mentioned, but I believe that 'Custom and practice' could come into play here – if they have allowed it for a time they cannot just take the right away no matter what written or verbal agreements are in place.

As the OP working from home (which I've been doing for almost 16 years) is better for my mental health. I'm more productive, fewer interruptions and I love the ability to manage my time to suit. It's a different situation than most on here, as I'm self employed and pay is for work done (piece work).

Stick to your guns OP.

Sounds like they've only just made the announcement, appreciate they've said no exceptions but is there any additional info? Is it possible they've not thought it through properly and have communicated poorly on top of that?

I'd avoid jumping into confrontational behaviour and quoting employment law, right to (request) flexible working, etc. Have a grown up conversation with the right people and take it from there.

If you do go down the righteous indignation and entitlement route, and somehow force them to allow you to keep working from home against their wishes, I would expect them to manage you out.

I have had the conversation at VP level - but he is trumped by CEO. There does seem to be very little wiggle room, although there has been the expected backlash of angry employees. Many of whom have built a life (me included) around the new way of work. There's also no dispensation given if you have children. Not a valid reason for not wanting to do a 6 hour round trip, apparently. You have 2 months to work out childcare. They just don't get it "Well drop your son off and then come to the office". If I leave at 9am, I get to the office at lunchtime. What is the point?

We had to tell a would be new recruit today of the change in policy. It was the draw of remote that prized him from a competitor. He's not joining now. Which is a shame for my team because he's talented. But part of me now wants the company to feel a lot the pain for their decision. They said they're prepared for attrition and also a new policy now not to look far and wide for the best person - just take a local person who is probably suitable.

It was the same for me a few months ago. The promise of remote. I left a local (to me) competitor for a role that would otherwise have not been possible. Too late for me, obviously. But other people also joined from the same competitor that live a mere 5 miles from me are OUT of scope for the return to office. Because we all live on the county border. Me the wrong side of it.

I've already alerted ex colleagues to my position. I left on good terms and with a great review - although recruitment there is slowing up a bit...certainly a freeze on filling certain open positions.

It's just a way to do layoffs without actually having to layoff anyone or pay redundancies. If you're thinking of leaving anyway you should see if you can negotiate a payoff. Even if you go back to the office you can expect them to start taking away benefits and ramping up targets.

Yes, they can easily say no if they have reason to do so. They cannot just refuse point blank with no further discussion.

Cougar at the end of it link it says that there is no appeals process for the employers decision

Employees no longer have a statutory right to an appeal.

So in end the employer can say what they like

I presume your contract doesn't spell out home working, so the verbal commitments are worth the paper they're written on?

It does sound like they're being shits. I can see two options:
1) start looking asap, escape soon
2) hang tight and see what happens. If enough people walk, they might change policy

(2) is high risk...

Just read my new contract. The interview process was all its work from home can you facilitate that, and we dont have any office space anyhow.

In a meeting today the big  boss said, I suppose now that COVID is over we should get back in the office more.

Contract states

Place of Work (also refer to Section 3) Home working and ******* House

Section 3

PLACE OF WORK
3.1 Your normal place of work will be as stated in the summary on page 1. However, you may
be required to work anywhere within the organisation (within a reasonable distance) as determined by
the requirements of the service. Any such move will be after consultation with you.
3.2 In the event of a pandemic/major emergency you may be asked to carry out other duties
as requested. Such requests will be in your scope of competence and with your agreement.

So all suitably vague. Ah well

Its not the end of the world if I have to go in, but my dog might get a bit lonely.

OP - unfortunately it looks like you are looking for a new job.

I was in the Lakes recently and a young couple had just moved there from Manchester as there jobs were in IT and remote working. I did wonder if this sort of thing would happen to them at the time, its a long commute to Manc from western Lakes.

How much notice are you on? Don't go in and what's the worst they can do? 3 Months gardening?

Can you just change your home address..

Register yourself at your parents etc.....

There’s also no dispensation given if you have children. Not a valid reason for not wanting to do a 6 hour round trip, apparently. You have 2 months to work out childcare.

I’d be looking for something else based on this alone tbh. Shows a lack of care for you as an employee. Do you really want to continue working at such a place?

@duncancallum This isn’t school applications you know.

Shows a lack of care for you as an employee. Do you really want to continue working at such a place?

While this is pretty normal for my employer (clue - it’s allegedly the third biggest in the world after the Chinese army and Indian railways) I’d agree, if they don’t care about your well-being that much then it’s CV buffing time.

It certainly does feel that they don't care - which is at odds with the spiel they gave in the States back in November, and all the awards for being "A great place to work".

CV updated. LinkedIn options updated. I'll not jump too hastily. There's a couple of months before this kicks in and doubt I'll be an isolated case - so expect HR may have some head-scratching to do.

Whatever happens though - the whole episode is making me feel bloody unwell. It's also £400 per month out of my net salary (the cost of two peak tickets to London each week) that was never on the cards when taking the role.

Tossbags.

Don’t go in and what’s the worst they can do? 3 Months gardening?

3 months of regular work?

Seems dubious they could make a gross misconduct, instant dismissal incident out of it...but if they're already being unreasonable, even if you were right, you'd still spend months fannying around getting properly paid.

Whatever happens though – the whole episode is making me feel bloody unwell.

Go see your GP. See how your HR department feels about getting signed off for three months with work-related stress / depression. 😁

t’s also £400 per month out of my net salary (the cost of two peak tickets to London each week)

Why isn't work paying for that?

Why isn’t work paying for that?

Because they consider it the OPs commute at their own expense.

Seems dubious they could make a gross misconduct, instant dismissal incident out of it…but if they’re already being unreasonable, even if you were right, you’d still spend months fannying around getting properly paid.

I watched my father in law at age 58 go through this with a US company. They were open that the attrition would mean many wouldn't go the full legal route, and so were happy to just dump folk and move on. FiL had put 14 years into the company, had a review one week which said 'excellent on all counts, have a payrise', and the following Monday morning he was home and out of a job by midday on orders of a US based boss...they even took company car there and then and told him to find his own way (30 miles) home...
It took 9 months and ACAS to get a settlement of 6 months salary.
He went from boss of a warehouse and 60+ staff to packing carrots on the production line - thankfully after a month of that he picked up a new job for an Irish company who were superb with him upto and beyond retirement.

It’s also £400 per month out of my net salary (the cost of two peak tickets to London each week)

My wife has no issue with going into the office one of two days a week, but it's the revised train pricing that feels like the kick in the teeth for her. She used to be able to buy a discounted Carnet of 10 tickets to use as you wanted - now it's been replaced by the stupid government (much less flexible) "Flexi Fare" initiative where you have to buy 8 tickets and use them within 28 days, so you end up losing money compared to paying the full price if you ever dip below two travelling days a week.

Why isn’t work paying for that?

Back in the real world it's normal to pay for your commute to work yourself.

Why isn’t work paying for that?

commuting isnt expensable. If your workplace is defined at home, then its not commuting when you have to go to the office.

but if it was defined like that for the OP, then this thread wouldn't exist..

Well this has taken a bit of a turn and I have a reprieve, for now - My role is deemed Client facing and therefore I've got a stay of execution. I have no faith that won't change in the future though. It's also left me feeling flat and wondering whether I want to work for a company that can f*** you around at the drop of a hat.

There's understandable outrage from people. If, as I do, you live on a county border - they are only mandating people in counties next but one to the office are included. if you are two county borders from the office, you are excluded. They will also pay your travel to the office. If you are within their "london region", you have to go in and fund travel yourself. So I would have been Included. People that live one mile from me - excluded.

For many it is a return to the pre-pandemic arrangements. For people that joined on a remote basis - and the understanding that remained remote....too bad. That agreement is out of the window. My new hire, due to start in 2 weeks - has understandably pulled out.

I am amazed at how poorly a supposedly big international corporation has handled this.

I am amazed at how poorly a supposedly big international corporation has handled this.

Your expectations were obviously too high!

I used to work for a 90,000 person company who were concerned that not all sites had the same access to reference material (books and journals). We were a large R&D site with 1000s of books onsite in a library. The company decided that the fairest system would be order reference material online and pay someone to photocopy a book / journal and then post it to us rather than walk to the onsite library and access the original. They delivered a set of skips and instructed people to bin all the books and journals from the entire site.....

It’s also left me feeling flat and wondering whether I want to work for a company that can f*** you around at the drop of a hat.

It's an American corporation, their entire business model is to squeeze you until the pips squeak, and then squeeze some more.

Not just Americans

Any business thats owned by shareholders...

I'm having similar thoughts on companies based on my current one's attitudes on flexible working.
Will see how it goes but if a decent role comes up elsewhere then my barrier to leaving is significantly lower than it was

I am amazed at how poorly a supposedly big international corporation has handled this

Are you new to the world of work? Big com

Not just Americans

Any business that's owned by shareholders

I've worked for some very big and small that have good and big and small companies that have been good. Size or ownership has no difference ime.

Being cynical, and I know it's a balls ache, but any employer can **** you over - I joined the civil service and less than a year later my office was closed snd I was redeployed to another agency in a different city.

As above I've worked for both large and small companies and it's all the same depending on who is running/managing it. Arseholes tend to be distributed evenly so chances are you'll encounter one sooner rather than later. I've yet to encounter an arsehole free workplace.

Back in the real world it’s normal to pay for your commute to work yourself.

Sure. But if you're only in the office two days a week then you're a home worker and travel to the office isn't a commute, it's extraordinary.

No?

Not just Americans

Not just any business that's owned by shareholders.

I work for Network Rail. The Route just released a new flexible working policy that supersedes the Agile Policy. Now states everyone back in the office 3 days/week or min. 2 days/week. No consultation. Not many are happy as lives have been built around a model NR were happy to use for the last 4 years. But this new Policy also coincides with another massive round of cuts (starting with round 2 of voluntary redundancies) and leading to compulsory. Co-incidence or another tool in the box to trigger people to leave voluntarily and avoid VR/Compulsory pay outs?

When I say work for Network Rail, Monday is my last day.

Sure. But if you’re only in the office two days a week then you’re a home worker and travel to the office isn’t a commute, it’s extraordinary.

No?

Yes, that is how we and HMRC work.

Your place of work is wherever its says in your contract.

Your place of work as viewed by HMRC is a different thing.

If your contract says you can work from home but you are expected to be in London 1 day a week, then thats what you have to do. And if the employer expects you to pay for that journey then so be it.

If you are in London a couple of days a week on a regular basis, and your employer pays for the travel, then HMRC may take the view that this is a taxable benefit. Regardless of what the contract says on location.

Glad you've had a reprieve OP, do you think you've been reallocated based on your objection? Can see why it's left a sour taste anyway.

Size or ownership has no difference ime.

I'd tend to agree with this, much more to do with individuals being in a position to impose daft rules like this and cultures where it's not open to challenge.

The reprieve was not due to my objection.... just sheer luck, I think. Many of our team are out and about with clients - to a much lesser extent, me too. But a lot of my time is spent in calls with remote clients. Does it matter whether I do it from the south coast or london, given that they are EMEA wide? Not really. I would have put in for an exception though - based on agreement when I took the role, and also that people that live closer to the office than me are exempt (due to the way that the county border meanders).

Yep...certainly left me feeling uneasy about what the future may bring. But perhaps I should relax and cross that bridge when I come to it. I'll certainly play ball by being at as many in person events and team days as possible - in the hope that entering into the spirit of the change may stave off future mandating of where I need to be.

and all the awards for being “A great place to work”.

Just a note on this. I worked for a large, well-known company that was in the Best Workplaces list every year (in The Times, maybe?? I've blanked this part of my life!) Selected people would be asked to fill in the questionnaire, popped into a meeting room with a copious supply of tea, coffee, snacks and sweets and allowed an hour or so to fill it in.

This was a place where the majority of employees were close to minimum wage, it had a chavvy, bullying culture and it was routine for people to take massive amounts of sick-days because of the conditions. Many people had breakdowns of various types. One, who I still see socially now, described how he would sit in the car-park shaking before his day started. We would all be mystified every year about who had voted it a great place to work. When I bump into ex-colleagues who have left the place they are like different people.

Sure. But if you’re only in the office two days a week then you’re a home worker and travel to the office isn’t a commute, it’s extraordinary.

No?

The HMRC would look at the pattern of attendance. So for all the people now working at home but regularly going into the office on Wed+Thu every week they would say both the Home and Office were permanent places of work and the commute from Home to the Office should not be paid by the employer (or if it is its a taxable benefit).

I think a few people are going get caught by this in future PAYE audits the revenue does.

Yep…certainly left me feeling uneasy about what the future may bring. But perhaps I should relax and cross that bridge when I come to it. I’ll certainly play ball by being at as many in person events and team days as possible – in the hope that entering into the spirit of the change may stave off future mandating of where I need to be.

Wise to show enthusiasm within acceptable bounds, yep.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a bit of quiet rowing back from management anyway, now they've realised they've pissed so many people off.

I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a bit of quiet rowing back from management anyway, now they’ve realised they’ve pissed so many people off.

Or they've pissed the *wrong* people off.

The ones they don't want to quit.