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my point is about the fault in question.
The only person to have attempted to diagnose the fault to date is the OP.
Given the description (it sounds properly burned) there’s close to zero chance it’s a manufacturing fault.
The onus is still on the retailer to demonstrate that rather than refusing to even assess it.
If it isn't a manufacturing fault, why isn't the other one equally "burned"? After several years perhaps, but under normal usage you don't blow out one brand new speaker in isolation after a month.
If it isn’t a manufacturing fault, why isn’t the other one equally “burned”?
If the fault has been caused by DC condition in the amp, it's totally possible for one channel to have DC on the output and the other be totally fine. Same for a fault condition causing excessive clipping. Regardless, if the retailer hasn't gone through these kind of questions and jumped straight to you've knackered it, I'd say that's very poor.
Don’t give up, but do be realistic about how much time is worth putting in, and do consider whether the amp might be underpowered or faulty. It’s the most likely cause. Speakers can overheat and fail in a few minutes.
You typically want your amp’s power rating to be 1.5-2.5x your speaker’s continuous power rating to avoid clipping (depending on how loud you want it, ie if you want to get the most out of the speakers).
I do also expect a retailer to handle this better. If this company isn’t helpful, I recommend Richer Sounds because IME they really recognise the importance of looking after customers and repeat business.
Impedance<br /><br />
It’s certainly what the OP is suffering.
Actually has anyone (the shop) asked what model of amp you connected them to?
I believe the OP bought the amp from the same place, so they ought to know. <br />Back when I used to sell hifi, I had a customer bring a speaker back because it was making a weird buzzing sound, and didn’t sound very good. I can’t remember what amp or speakers it was now, it’s getting on for forty years ago, but it would have been a Rotel, NAD or Trio, possibly a Pioneer, with something like KEF, B&W or Castle speakers, reasonably priced, good kit. Seems the customer was very fond of playing 12” singles of dub, reggae and the like, he’d overdriven the amp into clipping, and thoroughly trashed the bass/mid voice-coils. I left the boss to sort that mess out.
It seems unlikely the OP has done that, in my case, both speakers were trashed, not just one. Good luck with getting this sorted out, everything points to this being a faulty item, no question that I can see.
Unless, and this has just occurred to me, one of the output power transistors spiked for some reason? I’m no electronics or audio expert, but I’m sure I’ve heard of that happening on occasion.
Again again.
Inside of six months it is the retailer's responsibility to prove that the fault is anything other than a manufacturing defect.
All of this crap ^^ may be correct but it's irrelevant.
OP please just listen to Cougar. Send it back and exercise your statutory rights. It really is very simple.
I'm finding it hard to believe no one has yet asked the OP if he checked the directional speaker cable was correctly wired up! Tsk tsk.....
Something doesn't add up here. OP has asked for advice - got very sound advice and then seems to have chosen to do something rather abstract by contacting an importer (not even the manufacturer). All very odd. Is the OP in fact the retailer with a customer who has brought in a faulty unit???
As a non-hifi person, I would have expected that buying an amp and some speakers from a place who said that they suit each other (no idea if that's the case here) would imply that I couldn't break them simply by using the volume knob...
It seems that's not the case, but, well, WTF? I'd understand it if this was super expensive niche equipment (I guess you can break a Ferrari by getting in and pushing the 'loud' pedal if you don't know what you're doing!) But if this ended up going to a court, and the shop's stance was "the customer broke it by using the volume knob" then unless the arbiter were a hifi buff then they might well get short shrift.
Or is this general knowledge and I'm just really ignorant?
Not sure that (buying an amp and some speakers from a place who said that they suit each other) is the case, OP has said they bought speakers a month ago and also 'I bought over £1K of stuff from them' - not clear whether that was all at the same time.
If they were bought together even if not clear it was being bought for a single setup I'd have thought a decent retailer would have said 'erm....those speakers and that amp won't work together' - up to the buyer then to either rethink, confirm not a single setup, or whatever. A really decent retailer even if not bought together might remember what you bought before (decent Contact Management system for warranty, etc., would have this?) and advise. Be useful if OP could at least confirm that as while all the advice given (repeatedly) by Cougar is still correct, the sympathy and siding with the retailer is markedly different if the advice was
a/ Yes, that amp and those speakers will be great together
b/ Erm....those speakers and that amp won't work together
c/ Nice speakers, do you need help carrying them to the car
Also, is this going to be another 'Give me some advice.....NO NOT THAT ADVICE'
Also, is this going to be another ‘Give me some advice…..NO NOT THAT ADVICE’
I refer you to my earlier comment, that's what all advice threads on here are (mine included)
oceanskipper
Full Member
Something doesn’t add up here. OP has asked for advice – got very sound advice and then seems to have chosen to do something rather abstract by contacting an importer (not even the manufacturer).
I've checked the log and this is "OP asks for advice then ignores it" thread number 4241.
Thank the importer for their time, go back to the retailer and tell them you’re returning it under the CRA as faulty.
You're correct that the retailer is the person against who OP has legal rights, but you're overlooking a potential practical benefit of OP having engaging with the importer. The importer at least sounds like it's curious and sensible - unlike the naughty retailer.
If the importer looks at the item and says it's a manufacturing defect etc, then it sounds like they might replace them. Even if not, at least the importer accepting it's a manufacturing defect puts OP in a much better position to argue with retailer.
If the importer tells OP to FTFO, then OP isn't in any worse position with the retailer than they were already.
It can't hurt (apart from courier costs).
Or is this general knowledge and I’m just really ignorant?
Generally you can break almost anything by doing what it's supposed to do - although the Ferrari will break itself without human intervention!
Did no one get my “sound” advice pun?
Surely the point is that if the OP's speaker has blown up he's after no sound advice?
As a non-hifi person, I would have expected that buying an amp and some speakers from a place who said that they suit each other (no idea if that’s the case here) would imply that I couldn’t break them simply by using the volume knob…
Been a long while since I was in the hi-fi game (I worked part time in a couple of Hi-Fi shops in Glasgow in the early 2000's), but the answer is surprisingly, that yes, you can absolutely destroy stuff just by turning the volume knob.
Take an average entry level amp, a 30W NAD or similar Rotel or Marantz (quality well made kit but "entry level" in the HiFi world) pair it with a set of entry level speaker (say around £230 😉 ) and for normal usage you'd be golden. But turn the volume knob all the way to max and you'd blow the speakers or the amp in a few minutes.
The normal failsafe for this is the level of volume you'd need to get to to blow the speakers. most people generally back off once their ears are bleeding but if you are daft enough to keep going and max out the volume its really easy to damage kit.
I suspect they’ve bought said speaker via a grey import route (or it’s counterfeit) and now are in a pickle because they can’t get an FOC replacement which would have been a simple process via the importer.
I’d let the retailer know that the importer wants to examine the speaker and see what they say. If they don’t respond send it off to the importer to be independently assessed. You’ll likely need an independent assessment anyway to counter if the retailer states misuse by customer for MCOL or S75 appeal.
I thought it was written into STW T&Cs than any Hi-Fi thread should have this video posted on it! Tsk!, standards are slipping!... 🙂
The CRA exists for a reason; it provides legally enforceable rights and remedies to the consumer.
If a consumer whose circumstances justify enforcing their legal rights chooses an alternative course of action they are, IMO, being stupid.
Failure by a consumer to enforce legal rights does nothing to change illegal behaviour by retailers.
Not my money or blown speaker but I'm very clear about the correct course of action.
How and where the retailer sourced the product is irrelevant.
As a warning to others, who is the retailer?
As a warning to others, who is the retailer?
I'd be keen to find that out, also. It sounds like an outfit to avoid IMO.
It's been over or under driven (ie clipped), I would not accept that as a return.
Similar to a guy that brought his bike back with bent forks, because "they shouldn't do that".
@Cougar are you still on mono? 🤣
How and where the retailer sourced the product is irrelevant.
Except the retailer already has a stated position that OP broke it. So send it to retailer who’ll say OP broke it and then what?
CRA gets quoted like some magic wand with a happy ever after ending but retailer can and do challenge back. I’d rather be stupid and understand if it’s counterfeit or a manufacturing fault rather than misuse before I started going down a legal route but let the OP decide.
Similar to a guy that brought his bike back with bent forks, because “they shouldn’t do that”.
And at <6 months old I'd be telling you politely that to do so is to deny my statutory rights and you don't really have much choice.
If you think I broke them, send them to a metallurgical lab and get them inspected with a report that says there was no contributory fault.
No won't do that? Thanks can I have your manager or, if that's you, your name full name to put in my written letter of complaint and letter before action when I take you to court to prove my point.
The law is there because a lot of people are shysters and a lot of them and sell stuff then insist it's your problem when it broke regardless.*
Sometimes it is but often times it's not. Retailers cannot hide behind "you broke it, it's not my fault" at under six months it doesn't matter, they have to prove is your fault, not say "any fule know that" because, without wishing to put too fine a point on it, none of you actually know what happened and unless you happen to be a recognised expert in your field your opinion is worth precisely the square root of sod all.
After six months the op would have to prove there was a likely contributory fault, which in honesty they'd be unlikely to do given the upfront cost is going to be significant even if it's then recouped.
Whatever you think had happened or been done to the speaker doesn't matter and this is what we keep coming back to, the CRA isn't something a retailer can opt out of because you don't like it, any more than a sovereign citizen can opt out of paying taxes or court fines etc.
but retailer can and do challenge back.
They can do all they like but assuming they don't just scare you into going away it's going to be as effective as flapping their arms when in free fall.
They challenge because (a) most of them have no clue what you're rights are. (b) even if they do, most people will how oh, sorry, can I buy a new one then.
* See shimano cranks delaminating for a good example of "not our fault, user error" that low and behold is nothing of the sort. Of course now a lot of the problem has gone away for shimano because most of the faulty units will have been binned years ago at the users' expense because "they don't do that unless you did this".
Except the retailer has already has a stated position that OP broke it. So send it to retailer who’ll say OP broke it and then what?
Because that's the process... you can't rule out an electriclal/manufacturing fault over the phone, or indeed say the product was used out of spec.
The retailer should know not to make assumptions based on what the customer says, other than 'it's broke'. Wrong use of terminology, confusion, etc. The customer is a layman and can't diagnose it, the retailer certainly can't diagnose it or authorise a replacement if they've never seen/tested the faulty article.
tonyf1 - I seem to recall you taking a similar stance on another thread where the faulty item was one of a pair of sofas.
The OP on that thread, using the CRA legislation, got the result he wanted which the retailer attempted to deny him.
It gets tiresome re-stating the consumer's rights under the CRA - several times in this thread and across multiple other previous threads.
For the last time - on this thread - for an item less than 6 months old it is the legal responsibilty of the retailer to prove
the item was not faulty or defective.
It doesn't matter what you think, this is the legal position.
You refer to counterfeit; this would result in legal action by the brand owner, trading standards and a likely court case.
@Cougar are you still on mono? 🤣
Yes!
So send it to retailer who’ll say OP broke it and then what?
"Prove it." They haven't even looked at it yet.
I swear, people have their browsers set to write-only sometimes. 😁
I suspect they’ve bought said speaker via a grey import route (or it’s counterfeit) and now are in a pickle because they can’t get an FOC replacement which would have been a simple process via the importer.
I’d let the retailer know that the importer wants to examine the speaker and see what they say.
Speculation of course, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if this is exactly the case.
Has the retailer been named yet? Just so we can avoid them!
No.
I asked earlier.
OP either
send it back to the retailer and let them prove it’s faulty.
or
send to the importer to check it is legit and is a manufacturing fault and armed with this then engage the retailer.
End of the day choice is yours.
I swear, people have their browsers set to write-only sometimes. 😁
LOL. You might want to check our relative post count.
none of you actually know what happened and unless you happen to be a recognised expert in your field your opinion is worth precisely the square root of sod all.
Audio engineering is my day job, and what the OP decribed is a speaker that failed after having more power dumped into it than it was designed to dissipate as heat. Manufacturing defects are rare and would almost certainly present with different symptoms.
The retailer is 100% wrong to refuse to look at it (assuming it's not a fake, those rare manufacturing defects absolutely need to be ruled out) but it's not worth pushing further after it's been inspected.
Since the retailer isn't someone I'd trust at this point, I think the OP will at least get an honest answer and quick and fair resoution from the distributor, even if it might compromise their ability to take the retailer to court under the CRA.
I suspect they’ve bought said speaker via a grey import route (or it’s counterfeit) and now are in a pickle
It's certainly intriguing that the importer doesn't have a record of it (although tbf it may just be a mistake).
LOL. You might want to check our relative post count.
😱😱😱
Update time
So sorry ive not updated this in a few weeks, illness and other issues have meant I haven't posted much and just browsed now and again.
Just to clarify the retailer said if I returned the speaker they would automatically reject it without looking at it as they said I had overpowered the speaker (the amp's rms channel matched the speakers rms output so I'm pretty sure I hadn't)
So there was no point in returning the speaker to them as they would just reject it, post it back to me and probably charge me for the return postage costs
After speaking to the UK importer they kindly agreed to look at the speaker and replace if found to be faulty
Speaker was packaged up and posted out, 3 days after being posted the tracking was still showing as collected but there was no more updates on its progress, a week passed and still no update on the tracking
I contacted the delivery company who confirmed it had been scanned at collection and hadn't been scanned since
They said to wait another 7 days whilst they investigate and if the tracking doesn't update then to put a compensation claim in
Another 7 days passed with no updates so I put a compensation claim in (glad I paid extra to insure for the full value!)
Delivery company has now issued me a refund for the cost of the speaker and for my delivery costs
Delivery company haven't given me any updates on what has actually happened to it
Would like to know what they did with it and also kinda annoyed it never made it to the importer so i could find out if it was faulty
Anyway I'm going to use the compensation to buy some speakers off a mate who has decided to upgrade so all is good now
So we have a delivery driver somewhere who's annoyed that he stole some faulty speakers 😆
😂
Now waiting for delivery driver to start a thread complaining about faulty speakers...
escrs - you never did name the retailer; you should - as a PSA to others.
Delivery company haven’t given me any updates on what has actually happened to it
They won't have a clue, if they did, it would have been delivered.
A faulty driver nicking a faulty driver. You reap what you sow
Escrs, if your amp is faulty then you will probably just blow the replacement speaker as well. You only need a multimeter to check it. And since one speaker was still ok, it's a very easy check. Just compare the DC voltage of both. They should be similar and in the mV DC range.
Back in the late 90s - in London - does anyone else remember frequently being asked by blokes in vans "do you want to buy some speakers" - used to happen to me almost daily on the way to mbr magazine.
Delivery company haven’t given me any updates on what has actually happened to it<br /><br />
Happens EVRI now and then…
Amp is fine, had it tested by a mate and have been using some borrowed speakers for the past 3 weeks with no issues
I'm not going to name the retailer, they aren't a big national company but a small business but I will be leaving an honest review on their Trustpilot page so others are aware
Going to leave this thread at that, no point adding anymore or keep going over things, everything has kinda worked out due to a notorious delivery company losing the speaker and ive got my money back in a roundabout way
Just want to forget it all and enjoy my new speakers!
@brant - yes! I lived in East Finchley and Chalk Farm I between 97 & 2000, and it was a regular occurrence.
My mate Rob actually bought some 😆 they were shit!
ajantom
Full Member
@brant – yes! I lived in East Finchley and Chalk Farm I between 97 & 2000, and it was a regular occurrence.
My mate Rob actually bought some 😆 they were shit!
lols.
I remember telling one bloke I had some Celestion 5’s and he said “they’re sound, no worries” and drove off. I assume it was boxes with bricks in. But so random.
HEY MATE DO YOU WANT TO BUY SOME SPEAKERS.
The dodgy speaker sellers made it as far south as Brighton. I spent half an hour convincing a friend not to buy them.
brant
Back in the late 90s – in London – does anyone else remember frequently being asked by blokes in vans “do you want to buy some speakers” – used to happen to me almost daily on the way to mbr magazine.
Yeah, I got stopped a few times in Uxbridge when at uni.
Always the same speakers - massive chipboard cabinets with absolute shit drivers in them.
They even had fake magazine reviews with them in.
I was well into my hi-fi at the time, so gave them a wide berth.
A mate paid £200 for a set - he thought they were OK until we did a back to back comparison between them & my RTL 2 mkIIs.
He sold them to another mate who was perfectly happy with them. 🤣
Back in the late 90s – in London – does anyone else remember frequently being asked by blokes in vans “do you want to buy some speakers” – used to happen to me almost daily on the way to mbr magazine.
I used to work for one of the manufacturers they were counterfeiting 😀
I didn't do a decent job last time of explaining why I thought it wasn't faulty.
A speaker voice coil is just a coil of copper wire connected across an AC current source. Copper wire only overheats when it's overloaded, so when a wire catches fire you generally don't point your finger at the wire (unless it's been under-specced - the fake speaker possibility).
Because voice-coil wire is very thin, you can occasionally see faults in wire itself that managed to sneak through QA. But these show up as a small burn in the spot where the fault was, and the symptom is cone that moves freely but makes a scraping sound where the burned bit is rubbing on the magnet.
A stiff cone is characteristic of a voice coil that burned all the way round (the "full ring") which is what you get when the wire's been overheated end-to-end due to overloading.
Well done OP. Sorry you were unwell..
Back in the late 90s – in London – does anyone else remember frequently being asked by blokes in vans “do you want to buy some speakers”
It got as far north as Hudds and Leeds. They used to park up in a car park near Hudds uni a week or so after everyone got their grant checks and try and shift them. And my mum's office had a (mostly) half empty but private car park opposite one of the bigger Leeds Uni campus buildings. Doing the same thing there, until my mum got someone to go and shout at them
Many a shitty house party that I went to was powered by a couple of sets of them badly wired up together to an underpower amp.
I had them in Oxford. I offered them fifty quid, they asked me for five hundred, we failed to reach a deal...