Retailer refusing to accept faulty item for return

Your contract is with the retailer. Warranty and whether the manufacturer will/wont reject it should have little to do with it.

Within the first six months of purchase, burden of proof of fault lies with the trader I believe.

Yes but the retailer says if i return the item they will automatically reject any claim, so it leaves me stuck!

Let the retailer take a look.  If they reject it (sounds like they made their mind up already) call your card company and dispute the transaction.  The contract is between retailer and credit card co.

I spent months trying to get a refund from airline KLM when they stranded me in Central America at the start of covid. Dozens of calls to KLM. But just A few clicks on my credit card app and it was sorted.

Within the first six months of purchase, burden of proof of fault lies with the trader I believe.

This is correct, Sale of goods act I believe, if the retailer doesn't play ball just refer to credit card co & there are plenty of hifi dealers to go to, so worrying about upsetting one who has sold you some naff equipment is strange behaviour

I paid with my credit card which gives me more protection

Sounds like you are already at the point where you should be speaking to your provider about a chargeback. Have you got the bit about 'automatic rejection' of your return in writing? It's a clear breach of your statutory rights if they are not even going to look at them.

Yes but the retailer says if i return the item they will automatically reject any claim, so it leaves me stuck!

Then return the item and remind them of their legal obligations if they automatically reject the claim. Out of interest, do you think the retailer has a point? Do you think you may have damaged it? I ask because, if it was me, I'd be fighting this very strongly if I didn't believe I had done anything to damage it.

I don't think I would be worried about pissing off the retailer - you are the customer with a reasonable grievance.  If they don't play ball I certainly wouldn't consider them for future business.

@hot_fiat

Your contract is with the retailer.

If he bought it with a credit card, isn’t it with the credit company?

OP I’d go with the credit company. If there’s a possibility of the retailer losing access to one of the credit providers then it rather tends to focus their mind WRT customer service.

Ask them what would be required to overdrive the speaker and determine if you might have done that - if not, game on.

I'd ask them how they've come to their conclusion without inspection and if by coming to that conclusion without even bothering to look, to confirm in writing that they're ignoring you statutory rights and their obligations to them.

i dont want to piss off the retailer too much as i bought over 1k of stuff from them and i dont want to have any hassle with them in the future if any other issues arise

Feels like any hassles you'll have in future will be ignored as well meaning you'll have lost out twice!

If you've melted a voice coil that is only really done by overdriving or a faulty amp.

If either of these is the case then there are no grounds for return.

@ojom couldn’t it be a fault in the manufacture of the coil?

If they have only told you this verbally I would send an email to recap that they will refuse to treat this as warranty if you return them. Then I would contact the credit card company and avoid the sham return process.

If you return it they then have some power to say that you have broken them.

Where is @chiefgrooveguru when you need him?

Speaker has become stiff and there was a burning smell so im guessing the coil is knackered
Spoke to the retailer who says the speaker’s coil has been over driven

Have you opened it up to have a look? Sent pictures to the retailer?
Obviously I'm not saying you should open it up, but it all seems a little speculative without some proper fault finding having been done.

Does the impedance rating of the speaker match the setting on your amp?

@kramer after a month I'd think it highly unlikely. Voice coils are pretty reliable things. They don't tend to go faulty without external influence.

It's spectacularly dumb of the retailer to announce that they won't even investigate the fault before they pronounce you guilty.

The obvious question before you waste any more time on it is did you burn out the speaker, have you overdriven them, is the amp the correct rating and not clipping (i.e. low powered but driver excessively hard)?

If you can hand on heart say no to the above then send them back. If they refuse the return the start the small claims or credit card refund process.

The manufacturer will be able to tell what caused the damage to the voice coil. For example a faulty amp producing DC output will burn the coil at only one end.

Take it back, tell them you're returning it as faulty and, if they determine it isn't faulty you'll want to see how they have done that as at less than six months its legally assumed to be have been present at point of purchase so they need to prove it wasn't.

They will return it to the distributor etc for inspection or repair, you may be without it during this time or they might just immediately replace it out of stock (I suspect the latter) - they have a "reasonable" time to repair or replace it under the cra.

I'd suggest "reasonable time" in this case is going to be a couple of weeks at to account for transit both ways inspection and repair. Though I'd be surprised if it's isn't simply replaced.

If the retailer refuses to honor that process don't worry about rocking the boat, it's already plowing towards an iceberg anyway.

Cca section 75 shouldn't need to be anywhere near this and you'd need to have gone through a reasonable procedure before that anyhow. It isn't an "I can't be bothered" card, it's a "nothing else has worked [and visa have expensive lawyers]" card.

It isn't the SoGA, hasn't been for years, Consumer Rights Act replaced it in 2015.

As above, this isn't warranty, it's Consumer Rights Act- within 6 months the onus is on the seller to demonstrate it was not a manufacturer fault.

the retailer hasn't formally refused it yet, they've only said they will, you need to formally return it and they can then formally reject it - get their reasoning in writing, then small claims based on CRA (depending on retailer they might then seek mediation).

It’s spectacularly dumb of the retailer to announce that they won’t even investigate the fault before they pronounce you guilty.

So I'm reading this as you bought all the kit from them and they sold you an amp that is too "powerful" for the speakers, did they at any point suggest that you shouldn't turn it up too loud? I'm obviously unsure of the mechanism for this to happen but surely if a system is balanced, this shouldn't have been possible and it's an obvious product fault?

So I’m reading this as you bought all the kit from them and they sold you an amp that is too “powerful” for the speakers, did they at any point suggest that you shouldn’t turn it up too loud?

Cheers for all the replies

So system is set up correct as per the amp's manufactuer's guide lines and the speakers rated rms matches or is more than each channel's rms output on the amp (std rms, not max rms)

As far as im aware ive not over driven anything, rest of the system is working fine

Retailer said in their first email to me that they will automactically reject it if i return so basically saying dont waste your time and effort, so whatever i do they are going to say its my fault

Importer is not interested and say i need to deal with the retailer, which i get but if the retailer refuses to even take a look then surely the importer would be concerned about this and chat to the retailer about accepting the return or ask for me to send to them instead to inspect? or even just offer me a replacement at a discounted price?

Anyway ive been talking to a mate about this and he has just offered me his speaker set up at a too good to say no price as he has decided to upgrade so i may just cut my losses and sell the remaining speakers in the system to recoup some cash and not have to deal with this company

If you're going to buy a new set anyway, just send it back into the retailer to see what they actually do. 

If they have genuinely been overdriven and you've matched them to the amp (you say so, I believe you) there might be a problem with your amp - which is worth getting checked out before you put another set of expensive speakers on it... 

Right.

Your contract of sale is with the retailer. You have no relationship with the manufacturer. If the speakers have to be returned to the manufacturer then that is the retailer's problem to deal with.

Under CRA a fault within six months is deemed to be inherent. It is down to the retailer to prove otherwise. How they propose to do that without even seeing it, I do not know. This "blown coil" theory is nothing more than speculation at this point..

You are legally entitled to a repair or replacement (retailer's choice) in the first instance. They have to do this without unreasonable inconvenience to yourself (ie, they can't sit on it for six months).

I have had a lot of success with the phrase "just to be clear, can you confirm that you are refusing to honour my statutory rights?"

Other points. If you made the purchase wholly or partly on credit card, the card company is jointly liable. You will have recourse here, though I'd rather make the retailer roll over personally. I wouldn't worry about "pissing them off" - other retailers are available and would you want to give them any more money in the future based on this experience of their aftersales service?

... and if you've genuinely overdriven a £230 pair of speakers I imagine you'd know because you'd be on the phone going "pardon?" a lot. 😁

System has been tested with a replacement speaker (friend had an old one lying around) and no issues so far

Will have a think about what ill do next with regards to the retailer

Thanks for all the replies and advice

Oh, and,

It seems even if i could return it they will just say no to any warranty claim anyway

You need to be clear here. You are not making a warranty claim. You are returning them as faulty from new under the Consumer Rights Act 2015. These are very different things and it's an important distinction. A warranty is something offered optionally in addition to your legal rights under CRA.

Will have a think about what ill do next with regards to the retailer

If you have £230 you can just shrug and write off, let me know and I'll send you my bank details.

Seriously, fight it, send them back. It's easy for some eejit to write an email telling you to bugger off, it's a different matter entirely for them to actually break the law.

CougarFull Member… and if you’ve genuinely overdriven a £230 pair of speakers I imagine you’d know because you’d be on the phone going “pardon?” a lot. 😁

😂😂😂😂 Made me spill my coffee!

Anyway ive been talking to a mate about this and he has just offered me his speaker set up at a too good to say no price as he has decided to upgrade so i may just cut my losses and sell the remaining speakers in the system to recoup some cash and not have to deal with this company

I can't believe you are prepared to roll over like this if you genuinely believe that you haven't damaged the speaker through your own error.

f you have £230 you can just shrug and write off, let me know and I’ll send you my bank details.

LOL

the speakers rated rms matches or is more than each channel’s rms output on the amp (std rms, not max rms)

I'm no electrical engineer but it's that only half the story? What happens if you run 4 Ohm speakers on a 8 Ohm amp?

What happens if you run 4 Ohm speakers on a 8 Ohm amp?

resistance is futile.

There's no point considering it.

set up correct as per the amp’s manufactuer’s guide lines and the speakers rated rms matches or is more than each channel’s rms output on the amp (std rms, not max rms)

You can blow any set of speakers with pretty much any amp if you try hard enough, you as likely to damage speakers with an under powered amp as an over powered one. An under powered amp will run out of head room and send clipped sine waves to the speakers which will damage them pretty quickly.

Only you know if you've done something daft and damaged them.

If you haven't then don't accept the retailer refusing to deal with your return. If the refuse to deal then just hand the issue to you credit card company. Don't just roll over.

I have had a lot of success with the phrase “just to be clear, can you confirm that you are refusing to honour my statutory rights?”

This works with the likes of Ebuyer and other computer suppliers who can be sharks. Much back-pedalling when this is deployed.

I can see how it's possible that a coil could fail - if it were going to fail it would do so early on. If they are still wound with enamelled copper wire, that insulation could have had a flaw in it, or something like a bit of metal swarf got into the winding and after a few hours of being jiggled about it caused a short circuit, taking out some of the winding, reducing the resistance, increasing the current and causing it to burn out.

I'm not saying it's happened but it's plausible so worth pursuing.

An under powered amp will run out of head room and send clipped sine waves to the speakers which will damage them pretty quickly.

I thought decent amps had had soft clipping for years. My father’s NAD around 30 plus years ago did - precisely to stop speaker damage.

Do you have a log, written correspondence with the retailer did you pay by debit or credit card. If so, contact your card provider as they may be able to get the refund for you through a chargeback.

Do you think the tweeter or woofer is burned out.

The tweeter is relatively easy to damage with a clipping amp.  Woofer much less so.

What is the power rating of the amp ?  And the speakers?

If an off the shelf speaker is easy to blow/melt/otherwise damage at normal operating levels when following the installation instructions (as it appears the OP has done) then it does seem to point to not fit for purpose or factory flawed unless the OP has weaponised the system against his noisy neighbours and turned it up to 11 or got some fundamental compatability issue going on.

At £230 this presumably isn't some super tasty, ultra top end stuff that needs handling in a clean room by a certified and highly trained hifi buff to achieve the optimum something or other. . .

I'd be telling them that I'll be pressing both the credit card 'dispute' button, And If I need to I'll put a small claims court claim. And I'd be telling them that they have obviously made a prejudiced decision as they've not even seen the article, and that will be part of the small claims court evidence.
May as well buy off Amazon if this is the attitude of a local retailer. And they wonder why the high street is dying.

Do you have a log, written correspondence with the retailer did you pay by debit or credit card. If so, contact your card provider as they may be able to get the refund for you through a chargeback.

That is a long way down the line.

Does the op think he damaged it? No.
Back to the retailer, tell them they're returning it as faulty under the CRA and wait for them to fix or replace.
If they refuse to replace and can't prove it is the OP's fault, then maybe section 75, assuming the op has escalated the complaint within the company's procedure - no company you want to deal with is going to let £230 get any further than stage 2 of that procedure.

The credit card company has at this point nothing at all to do with it. Section 75 requires you to do the leg work first. It is nowhere near the top of the list of things to do.

It's also worth pointing out that if the speakers were bought as speaker £a, speaker £b, woofer £c, cable £d to a total of £230 section 75 may not apply anyway . The minimum value of the specific item (not transaction) is £100.
If they were bought as a set for £230 it'll, eventually, be covered.

However if they are bought as a set then the whole set needs to be of fit purpose. I had a retailer who I bought a chair and ottoman from, they never delivered the ottoman so the whole transaction was refunded by the credit card company and the retailer never bothered to collect the chair.
I would not roll over in this circumstance.

EDIT: I either mis read the previous post or their was some editing after I posted my reply 🙂

You have legal rights under the CRA; enforce them.

What @cougar said.

checking this is a UK retailer? Different consumer rights apply elsewhere.

A calm and polite discussion with the retailer on the failure of the speaker for the purpose for which it was intended will surely bring about effective resolution before escalating to credit card disputes or small claims.

Remember as well that for remote purchases the distance selling regulations can help in different circumstances.

Remember as well that for remote purchases the distance selling regulations

Don't exist anymore, it's the cra...

So i have an update

I managed to speak to someone higher up at the importer

They have said that they have no record of my retailer purchasing the speakers from them so they are investigating to find out why

Because of this they would like me to return the speaker to them for inspection, which is something they dont normally do

So ill be returning it this week, im 99% sure i havent set it up wrong but if the UK importer deem its a user set up error etc.. then ill accept their decision and ill have to find out what happend to cause the issue

What are they going to do if they find it's faulty, if they claim not to have supplied it to the retailer in the first place?

If you paid for the item with your credit card, raise a chargeback via them.

They will do all of the chasing for you.

They will push the retailer to handle the issue, or if they fail to they will just refund you the money.

I did this via NatWest a year ago. Filled in a form, sent it off and surprisingly the retailer came up with a solution quickly...

Interesting update but not relevant - unless you intend to allow the retailer to walk over you.
They (the retailer) are denying your statutory legal rights.
Make it explicitly clear you intend to enforce your rights with them - polite but firm.
The importer's comments would cause me to question where the retailer sourced the other components from and, on that basis, would be looking to return everything for full refund as a fully functioning pair of speakers is an integral part of the system.

resistance is futile.

Impedance. 😁

Only you know if you’ve done something daft and damaged them.

If you haven’t then don’t accept the retailer refusing to deal with your return.

If you think you have then **** it, it's still down to them to prove. There's two speakers, they've both been driven at the same rate and the other one's fine, any further questions?

I wouldn't be sending anything to the importer. There's nothing in it for them to refund you.

Because of this they would like me to return the speaker to them for inspection

To what end? What are they inspecting, what are they proposing to do post-inspection? How does this help you?

Why ask for advice if you're then going to ignore two pages' worth and do something entirely different?

I wouldn’t be sending anything to the importer. There’s nothing in it for them to refund you.

"Yeah, we've discovered they're counterfeit / grey imports so we've destroyed them. kkthxbi."

If they have no record of the import, I would be inviting the retailer to comment on this claim. In case you missed it,

[color=red]YOUR CONTRACT OF SALE IS WITH THE RETAILER. THEY ARE LEGALLY LIABLE. A FAULT INSIDE OF SIX MONTHS IS DEEMED TO BE INHERENT. IT IS THEIR RESPONSIBILITY TO PROVE OTHERWISE.[/color]

End of. No-one else has any legal responsibility here unless you paid wholly or in part by credit card in which case that gives you an additional recourse under the Consumer Credit Act. Did you?

Impedance. 😁

I didn't say anything disrespectful or rude!

Why ask for advice if you’re then going to ignore two pages’ worth and do something entirely different?

Are you new here? "ignore and do something entirely different" is precisely Why you ask for advice on STW.

Fair. 😂

It always used to make me laugh, threads going "I've bought this, is it any good?" Well, if it isn't then it's a bit late to be asking, isn't it.

The retailer isnt refusing the return they are saying they will automatically reject any claim as they say ive caused the issue and ive no way to prove otherwise so there is no point in returning it to them as it will get me nowhere

The importer said they have no record of the speakers purchase, dosent mean it wasnt purchased from them just they have no record of it hence the investigation, they said the retailer has purchased various other speakers of the same brand from them just mine isnt showing on their records, could simply be a clerical error

Importer has said that if the speaker is found to be at fault then they will be happy to replace it for me

Its all boxed up awaiting collection

I would be inviting the retailer to comment on this claim.

It would certainly be a good first option.

I'm not convinced the importer could legally seize/destroy the property of a consumer though. If they inspected and found it to be counterfeit, that surely would be in the OP's favour in a small claims decision.......if it went that far.

edit after crossed post - yeah, I think you are doing the right thing.

It was definitely brand new from the retailer?

The retailer isnt refusing the return they are saying they will automatically reject any claim as they say ive caused the issue and ive no way to prove otherwise so there is no point in returning it to them as it will get me nowhere

Bollocks. You do not have to prove anything. The burden of proof is on them.

The importer said they have no record [blah blah etc]

So what, who cares. This affects you how?

Importer has said that if the speaker is found to be at fault then they will be happy to replace it for me

At fault, or faulty? A subtle but important difference I fear.

This all sounds very promising but understand, to the best of my knowledge you have no legal redress here if it goes sideways.

Return to retailer.
If retailer refuses to refund, repair or replace, raise issue with credit card provider.
I suspect that the card provider won't help if you have no evidence of trying to resolve it with the retailer.
I wouldn't be sending it to the importer.

The retailer isnt refusing the return they are saying they will automatically reject any claim

One thing is the other.

Thank the importer for their time, go back to the retailer and tell them you're returning it under the CRA as faulty. Be very very clear, under the cra they are statutorily required to prove that was nothing wrong. That doesn't mean you didn't break it that means that means you and only you broke it.

When (if) they reject your claim, ask for a full copy of the engineer's report showing how the damage occurred and disproving the presence of any contributory faults.

Also a month ago how accurate is this, up the 30 days you've a short term right to reject so, if you're not convinced they're going to play nice just tell them you're exercising that and to kindly not complain as you piss on their chips.

Burned voice-coil warranty exclusons are common, as pretty much the only reason they burn out is if they're 'mistreated' by the amp. Being driven by an under-powered amplifier is the more common cause - it's the clipping that kills the coil.

But I don't think much of the retailer in this situation. They should be explaining this to you politely and reasonably, and at least offering to look at them and give you the option of an out-of-warranty repair.

Burned voice-coil warranty exclusons are common, as pretty much the only reason they burn out is if they’re ‘mistreated’ by the amp

It is not a warranty problem. They cannot exempt themselves from their statutory obligations. The op has zero reason to be looking at warranty and that's another reason not to be dealing with the importer.

They should be explaining this to you politely and reasonably, and at least offering to look at them and give you the option of an out-of-warranty repair.

No, they should not. It is not a warranty issue. The op doesn't need an out of warranty repair.

If they think it's a voice coil failure caused by the op they need to prove that.
They need to prove that not one of the components on that board has a post supply failure rate greater than zero, they need to prove there is zero possiblity for contributory damage to have occurred in transit. They need to prove that particular unit has absolutely nothing at all wrong with it at the point of delivery and then they need to prove that electronic consumer goods do not, on occasion, fail through no fault of the user's.
They need to prove there was nothing wrong before "the op broke it".

In short the retailer needs to climb back in their box and replace or repair.

It is not possible for them to meet their statutory obligations without either replacing the unit or defying the laws of physics and proving a negative.

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/what-do-i-do-if-i-have-a-faulty-product-aTTEK2g0YuEy

This is a decent guide

Do NOT return to the importer. Its nothing to do with them

YOU have good strong legal rights here. Use them

I'm sure you're right about the obligations, dangeourbrain, but my point is about the fault in question. The OP should certainly try, but it's worth them knowing that they will very likely be wasting their time.

Given the description (it sounds properly burned) there's close to zero chance it's a manufacturing fault. It's the audio equivalent of taking a melted saucepan back to the shop.

It looks like the retailer is challenging OP.

I don't see why they cannot accept it back and I doubt the manufacturer will want to jeopardise their relationship after all the retailer buy bulk from them and as their outlet.

They need to prove there was nothing wrong before “the op broke it”.

Right, and if it was working on day 1, it was working before the op broke it.

This is a bit like someone fitting an inner tube and pinching it in the process, so it doesn't hold air. No reasonable bike shop would replace it as it's obvious what has happened, and they can prove this with some maufacturer tests (most will do this) that are run before it goes out the door.

Whether it is reasonable out not is irrelevant. The shop have less legal recourse than the chance that it's a manufacturing fault.
If there's a 0.00001% chance the OP's speaker went pop for no reason at all they're stuck.

They are required, by law, to prove there wasn't a fault. It isn't an option, it isn't a question of reasonable. The law is deliberately designed to be onerous on the retailer.

The op could, quite literally have pissed inside the speaker before it blew up and still take it back and it's still the shop's problem if they can't prove the op did it. "might have been the delivery driver. Box looked like it has got wet now you mention it" shop's problem.

Shop tested the speaker? Maybe their amp caused the problem etc etc.

The op could know fine well he caused the issue, still take it back and still very much expect the shop to repair or replace all the while muttering obscenely through their smile. He'd be a dick if he did but he'd absolutely be entitled to do it and the shop would absolutely be required to either prove he did it or put up.

Every time people bitch and moan about the price of things in the UK, how much margin on a bike etc they rather forget they're paying for some of the best consumer protection in the world. You price for failure, you price for the real world and you price for idiots so that when something goes wrong you can deal with it according to your obligations.

Right, and if it was working on day 1, it was working before the op broke it.

Uh huh, so if the op bought a car from a dealer and the bottom fell off 100 yards from the forecourt that would be the OP's problem right?

Not every problem is apparent on day 1, the law recognises and protects that truth, even at the expense of the occasional disingenuous claim.

Whatever the outcome OP I'd be voting with my wallet and never using them again.

Not quite surely dangerousbrain?

The shop needs a recognised expert to state that in his opinion its obvious user error and for that expert to be able to back up their reasoning or something similar to that because at the end of the day it would be settled in a courtroom.  Is it criminal standard of proof or civil?
I know nothing about the technical side of this at all but if its an open and shut case as in the melted saucepan or pinched tube that its user error in some way then its not worth pursuing.

so i may just cut my losses and sell the remaining speakers in the system to recoup some cash and not have to deal with this company

I can’t believe you are prepared to roll over like this if you genuinely believe that you haven’t damaged the speaker through your own error.

+1

OP. You appear to be letting them walk all over you.

Get in contact with CC company and tell them to sort it out.

It’s the audio equivalent of taking a melted saucepan back to the shop.

But surely if a saucepan melted you would instantly assume manufacturing fault - no? If the OP has fried some speakers and if that possibility was clearly a likely outcome if certain conditions were met and it was also highly likely that one could meet those conditions easily enough without knowing then there should be clear warnings in the instructions and if there aren’t then is it the OPs fault? If it’s quite hard to fry them and the OP would have had to be connecting them to the equivalent of the PA system at the O2 in order to damage them then that’s different obv.

None of that is really relevant mind you as the OP should just be following the advice given and go back to the shop followed by getting his amp checked (somewhere else).

The shop needs a recognised expert to state that in his opinion its obvious user error and for that expert to be able to back up their reasoning or something similar to that because at the end of the day it would be settled in a courtroom. Is it criminal standard of proof or civil

As I understand it -
Statute, is neither really. Statute effectively presumes guilt until you can prove otherwise, so the standard of proof is criminal but presumption against the defendant.

They would have to get a recognised expert to testify it isn't possible it was a pre-existing/latent defect. The law presumes the presence there of in the case of fault at less than six months.

Having sat on the other end of this the expensive lawyer summed it up as "you don't think the product is at fault? I see you cycled in this morning, does it help if you think the lorry should have given way? Just replace it."

I'm just going to repeat here that as well as clipping melting voice coils, a channel going DC also causes that. So I would definitely be asking the retailer to have a look at the amp. Or at the least using a multimeter to check to see if you've got DC across the output of one channel or a short in your speaker cables (less likely but possible).

I certainly wouldn't be connecting a new set of speakers until you're comfortable the other bits of the system are definitely OK.

Actually has anyone (the shop) asked what model of amp you connected them to? If not why not and how can they be so sure you have damaged them if they don’t know what you plugged them in to??

Actually has anyone (the shop) asked what model of amp you connected them to? If not why not and how can they be so sure you have damaged them if they don’t know what you plugged them in to??