You don't need to be an 'investor' to invest in Singletrack: 6 days left: 95% of target - Find out more
Old thread here: https://singletrackmag.com/forum/topic/rest-and-be-thankful/
BBC reporting a tunnel is now the preferred solution and have a plan..well, it's a 'debris flow shelter' (DFS? anyone?)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-65781089
£500 million?, I expect the final bill will be way north of that
Yeah, not really a tunnel is it, that's bad BBC reporting. Those things are V common in the alps I think, seems a sensible solution
Yep, standard in much of the world, so seems reasonable to me?
final bill will way north of that
Fort bill is a fair way North.
Good to hear the government had been "working tirelessly to find a long-term solution to the landslip risks".
We've a similar "tunnel" at Loch Carron that could do with being a good bit longer.
Anyway I expect this will just be added to the SNPs list of transport projects so should be complete around the end of the century. Maybe even this one.
£500 million?, I expect the final bill will be way north of that
You could buy a ferry for that....
You could buy a ferry for that….
that made me snort into my tea.
<p style="text-align: left;">"You could buy a ferry for that…."</p>
That remains to be seen.
That remains to be seen
Well a camper van at least I'd think.
You could buy a ferry for that….
Not if your the SNP, a metal box with painted on windows maybe!
On a more serious note, I wonder if they will let bikes ride on that access path and across the roof?
I wonder if they will let bikes ride on that access path and across the roof?
You can have the old military road and like it....
On a more serious note, I wonder if they will let bikes ride on that access path and across the roof?
That's a bit of a huck off the other end!
"You can have the old military road and like it….
Posted 17 minutes ago"
We will have to . I would guess the old military road will be used as a diversion for as long as it takes to build the new shelter on the main road. I've not used the old road. Is it upgraded to two way or will it be a convoy system for the forseeable once construction starts with substantial delays?
Who knows? They've not got that far with the process yet. I suspect that the OMR will become impassable after a few years of the shelter being in place anyway.
If it absolutely has to go on the old route that does seem the way to do it, but it's a massive task- that hillside's basically a really slow flowing river. So it'd not just be about protecting the road from slides, it'll have to be massively dug in and reinforced to deal with being built into an unstable slope. And yep, I can't see hte old military road being viable through all that earthmudmoving.
Still reckon going to the other side of the valley makes more sense, we got diverted over there onto a dirt road once a long time ago and while the actual route as it is is pretty awful especially where it comes up to the b828, it definitely seemed like a better place for a road. Keep the existing one open while you basically lay a totally new road over on that side from where the A83 briefly crosses the river, and only have to close it to do the connections.
If this was china they’d have massive 300ft concrete piled structures across the valley floor next to old road then lay a precast road across the top in a matter of weeks
I haven’t examined the minutiae of the tunnels construction, but I had the idea of laying a huge inflatable thing along the length of the road, and then triggering a landslide to cover it.
Reinforce the landslide debris, and then deflate the inflatable thing.
Bobs yer uncle, one rock-solid tunnel.
As a historical note, my aunt lived in the last house on glen croe. She got fed up with the sheer amount of debris from the Cobbler, landing in her garden and moved out😂😂😂
So... things this structure has in common with a tunnel.
Erm...
Maybe someone should get the South Koreans to build it rather than some party crony on the Clyde...
https://www.steam-packet.com/blog/isle-of-man-steam-packet-company-new-vessel-progress/
Look what you could have won, for about £150-200m less and 5 years earlier.
So it’d not just be about protecting the road from slides, it’ll have to be massively dug in and reinforced to deal with being built into an unstable slope.
I'd imagine that's why it's going to cost roughly £321428 per metre, the founds will have to be set into the bedrock. Can't just pile it either or risk a landslide.
So it’d not just be about protecting the road from slides, it’ll have to be massively dug in and reinforced to deal with being built into an unstable slope.
You'd think a lot of tree planting might help that, and be cheaper 🤷🏻♀️
I’ve not used the old road. Is it upgraded to two way or will it be a convoy system for the forseeable once construction starts with substantial delays?
The OMR is mostly single track, operated under convoy and has some fairly tight bends near the top. Some widening has already been undertaken at the uppermost hairpin but the worst pinch point is a narrow bridge on a bend that can't be widened further unless the bridge is replaced. If the intended OMR upgrade does go ahead, they'll need to do that before the main works begin on the A83.
FWIW, I'd have preferred a viaduct up the middle of Glen Croe as the works wouldn't impact the existing route and new road would be well away from the unstable slope. The option chosen will get hit by debris and will likely require monitoring / closing from time to time. Worst of both worlds from disruption / safety perspectives.
They did talk about a new road on the forestry track at the other side. It has not suffered from landslip. Perhaps a post earlier gives a clue why. Once seen quite a few cars parked up on the other side of the rest ,suits with hard hats on looking at the hillside. Wonder how much the travel allowance was ?
You’d think a lot of tree planting might help that, and be cheaper 🤷🏻♀️
Or stopping the land above the road having the vegatation grazed off.The current situation being the subsidies are being paid for the lawndowner to graze stock on the slopes above parts of the A83 in the area.
The "solution" chosen has numerous downsides. Don't take my word for it. According to this study - assuming the final choice is similar to the Brown Option.
This proposal is rejected for further consideration since the impacts during construction are considered to
outweigh the longer term benefits and the estimated cost is greater than other proposals with similar long term
benefits.
The design of a debris flow shelter would present technical challenges unique to this location due to the ground
conditions and slope instability. While construction would be by proven methods and technology, the works
would be within a narrow, linear construction site immediately adjacent to temporary traffic manageme
Operational costs for this proposal would increase due to the routine maintenance costs for such a major
highway structure. Following debris flow events, remedial works would be required to clear excessive debris
from culverts and the roof of the structure, though these works would not affect the operation of the road
So we are spending half a billion for a mile of road that will need regular maintainance to clear landslip debris just like now.
The viaduct option was thought to be in the same ballpark costwise according to that study. And would leave the current road largekly unaffected during construction.
Advert.
Towzers Tunnel Experience
Why not experience all the features of the Rest and Be Thankful Tunnel early and in the privacy of your own home, yes, available today, produced at great cost and absolutely unique, we’re created a brilliant white, 32mm perfect replica diameter, rust free, attractive plastic replica circular tunnel with an elegantly smooth surface, it’s a product that will grace and improve any location.
Price - unknown, but just buy it anyway, and we’ll likely bill you much more than rrp.
Delivery - probably late, possibly not atall and probably extra charges for Scotland.
Refunds - not a ****ing chance (* sorry mods)
PS - any interest in replica trams, ferries or mountain railways.
any interest in replica trams, ferries or mountain railways.
Can you make a replica of something which doesn't exist?
I had no idea we had so many resident civil engineers. Uncanny...
I had no idea we had so many resident [s] civil engineers. [/s] XYZ Uncanny…
Are you new to the Internet?
Also are you new here? There's a very good chance there are a significant number of relevant professional experts for any given topic here.
The problem is it isn't civil engineers that take the build decisions. Civil engineers advised the M80 past Cumbernauld should be 6 lane rather than 4. Overruled and we ended up with a multimillion quid new motorway with no greater capacity than the road it replaced and peak hours congestion from day one.
And since when were only qualified experts able to discuss big chunks of taxpayers money being spent?
Ok, maybe not the ferry it only seems to have been about 50% over budget ( https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/homenews/22824137.cost-taxpayer-scotlands-ferry-fiasco-soars-nearly-340m/), so that’s actually a winner. However tram costs were a bit more out (%wise) ( https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/over-budget-edinburgh-tram-learnings-drive-remainder-of-line-to-completion-17-10-2022/) and the railway, which does seem a bit special ( https://parkswatchscotland.co.uk/2021/01/16/funicular-business-case-or-financial-basket-case/), but to be fair the variance on figures on the internet is pretty wide ranging so apologies for any incorrect figures.
Anyway, thank heavens we had experts on those projects, as otherwise they’d have been delayed or over-budget.
Making a replica out of something that doesn’t exist sounds like the ideal private sector/public sector project, the public sector could be persuaded into signing a contract and forking out lots and lots and then the solution (ie nothing), could be delivered late and over-budget. So, ideal for the private sector as they get money for nothing and ideal for the public sector as they’ve literally got nothing to hide.
(Apologies for being so cantankerous today, I have no idea why*, brilliant xc ride the morning, perfect weather, tracks, flora and fauna, loved it, quite a few stops to just look round and be stunned at how awesome everything is looking at this time of year, legs working really well, bike perfect, cleared a couple of bits I don’t usually manage, awesome. *think that I was a big Scotland politics and Sturgeon fan (*well at least thought it was more honest, more for the people and less mates rates than England), now it just seems like fiascoland all over)
Clearly a decent amount of people with a sarcasm bypass too.
More about the tone of some comments really, I'm just waiting on "pretend parliament" for house.
Civil engineers advised the M80 past Cumbernauld should be 6 lane rather than 4. Overruled and we ended up with a multimillion quid new motorway with no greater capacity than the road it replaced and peak hours congestion from day one.
See, that's a really odd one as it only ever seems to get congested between Condorrat and Bonnybridge (without fail, any time of day). Now you could blame the traffic joining and leaving the M73 but it disappears once you clear the viaduct at the other end (which would have been a severe constraint on 6 lane operation). I'm pretty certain there isn't a critical mass of traffic entering and leaving Bonnybridge.
The correct choice for the M80 would have been a new line for the motorway. Easier to build than upgrading a road while it is in use. The old road would have been available vas a bypass when works were being done on the road. As per this letter at the time.
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/12080390.a80-upgrade-entirely-the-wrong-choice/
So we are spending half a billion for a mile of road that will need regular maintainance to clear landslip debris just like now.
Why? Clearing now is to remove debris that’s blocking the road; with its hat on, there will no longer be debris on the road surface. Having looked at the design for the structure, I can’t see why regular clearance would be necessary; surely the point of a roof is to just allow debris to just land on the top, especially if the roof has a slight downhill angle, gradually building up and creating a scree slope that naturally blends into the slope of the valley, extra can roll off the downslope edge, and also acting to slow the sliding of debris. Angled ‘strakes’ or ribs parallel to the ends of the roof could act as an external support and additional rock-brake allowing the debris to naturally settle into the gaps between the ribs. Over time, vegetation should be allowed to colonise the whole length of the slope*, blending it in, and knitting the whole slope together.
*Providing the landowners are stopped from further denuding an unstable slope, adding further to the existing situation.
If it's a tunnel surely we only need to get in the folk that built the Elizabeth Line. After all, that went so swimmingly.
'We' are sure the tunnel will support the weight of all this material that will continue to slide down and over this structure?
It does seem to require the grazing animals to be removed and more trees planted to help reduce the amount of water on the hillside...the tree roots will help draw water out and also help stabilise the ground. Would be worth tree planting perhaps a mile either side to help (from a non-engineering point of view).
Are 'we' also sure a mile is far enough?
Working tirelessly? Heck, must try harder looking at the inclination of the slope it doesn't seem sensible. The government has a history of taking expert advice, then completely ignoring it. This seems to be another example. The cynic in me would say screw it up then use as an excuse to blame the incumbent government for years to come...
JeZ
More from Nick Kempe/ Parkswatch
The design isn't quite what it seems from the artists impression/video shown above.
Why? Clearing now is to remove debris that’s blocking the road; with its hat on, there will no longer be debris on the road surface. Having looked at the design for the structure, I can’t see why regular clearance would be necessary;
Looks like regular clearance is a feature of the new design not a bug. As per the Parkwatch link above.
The correct choice for the M80 would have been a new line for the motorway. Easier to build than upgrading a road while it is in use.
Where? Straight through the woods between Croy and Twechar before following the canal and ploughing through roman remains and the Glasgow-Edinburgh main line before rejoining at Haggs?
The roman remains don't seem too much of a concern these days in many places...which is a real shame. However, I get what you are meaning.
Where? Straight through the woods between Croy and Twechar before following the canal and ploughing through roman remains and the Glasgow-Edinburgh main line before rejoining at Haggs?
I'm sure a scheme could have been devised to avoid ploughing through the railway. Perhaps a bridge?
I'm also fairly confident the entire route is not covered in Roman bathhouses and forts. A suitable line avoiding them could have been found.
A bridge? Bearing in mind how tall Bonnybridge viaduct is that's going to be ****ing huge to get over the line approaching it. Or do you mean a new viaduct over the road? Either way it would involve closing the EG main line (again) and be horrifically expensive compared to upgrading the existing infrastructure.
Anyway, this is all whataboutery over less than 5 miles of motorway that inexplicably jams up. The topic is 1.5 miles of A road that everyone knows why it gets blocked.