[Closed] Residents who think they own the road they live on,parking issues

I think your hearing is dodgy

This whole "car's shouldn't be parked on the road" argument sounds an awful lot like car drivers moaning that "cyclists shouldn't be on the road"...

Half households in Hackney don't have a car, or at least didn't when I lived there (in a terraced house built in 1865. A big one, the selling of which was one of my many grievous financial errors...) The kids from those households of course being more likely (than mine) to play in the street or be pushed in buggies along blocked payments. My point? People should feel less entitlement than they do to space they don't own, and, erm, it's not fair.

interestingly as autonomous cars become more widespread (and actually become fully autonomous), this problem might go away completely. Why would anyone privately own a car when an uber-like service would be cheaper (as it is in use 100% of the time), available anywhere (ie, drive me from a-b, then from c-a afterwards), able to drive people unable to drive themselves (kids home from school), and vary in size/capacity (just hail a larger car when you need it), then can park itself somewhere central when it needs to charge.

The overall number of cars required to service the population would drop (I would guess the number of cars needed simultaneously in rush-hour is less than 30% of the overall number of cars), and if you can hail one to be waiting outside your door in 3 minutes time, why would you have one parked there (the only gap is potentially people living right out in the sticks, but then parking isn't an issue for them anyway)..

the elephant in the room that we're all arguing around is one of 'level of change' and the inability of our infrastructure to keep up.

most residential roads were built long before the cars, and the houses have no provision for garage or off-road parking, they were built at a width appropriate the use at the time, some idea of future use maybe but essentially they were built to accomodate he traffic and use at the time.

More recent residential streets (last 50-60 years) are a bit wider, and were often built (where possible) with some provision for parking [b]a[/b] car offroad, so the occasional extra one in the road was no big deal.

But over the last 50+ years car ownership and use has increased massively, but the roads and parking spaces have not, the result now being that residential streets are crammed full of them. They simply were not built with that in mind.

If you were building those same streets now with the expectation that both sides would be crammed with parked cars, and each house needing 2 or more spaces you'd do it differently, very differently.

It's simply the massive increase in car ownership that has caused it, and us (the collective us) not being prepared for that or anticipating it to the level it's got to.

People did play football and socialise in the street, even when there were some cars parked there, I'm only in my early 30's and even I can remember playing in the street, having to be careful of 1 or 2 parked cars when kicking a ball around, and occasionally having to stop for a passing car, these days those same roads have a continuous line of parked cars along one or both sides, and traffic is so frequent you have your wits about you just crossing the road let along doing anything in it.

it's the volume of cars and the lack of space that's the issue, and there's no quick way to either decrease the number of cars or increase the amount of space = conflict.

I reckon it's going to be a lot easier (and more beneficial) in the long run to decrease the car ownership and use than it is to magic up more space to store them.

It will be interesting to look back in another 50 years and see what we make of this current situaation, will it have gone away with the advent of alternative transport choices? Will we look back on this and wonder how we ever let it get so bad? I hope so.

[quote=amedias ]it's the volume of cars and the lack of space that's the issue, and there's no quick way to either decrease the number of cars or increase the amount of space = conflict.

There isn't, but it's a problem which won't ever be solved if people pretend it isn't a problem.

I quite agree!

And as I am so often saying to people, just because it won't be quick or easy to solve, doesn't me it isn't worth solving.

And as I am so often saying to people, just because it won't be quick or easy to solve, doesn't me it isn't worth solving.

Now you might argue this is the fault of the overtaking drivers,

People will always be idiots, sadly. I followed a huge faux-by-four to work this morning which swerved violently into oncoming traffic, narrowly missing another vehicle, to avoid an empty carrier bag that was blowing around in the road.

Of course we would, we need somewhere to socialise and do all the other stuff previously mentioned. Where better than outside your front door?

I think the last time I "socialised in the street" was the Silver Jubilee in 1977.

I think that most folks here are talking about residential streets, rather than A-roads and the like. It's probably a good idea to differentiate.

True, you're probably right. I live on a main road so the lines are blurred a little* for me.

(* - I should probably ask the council to repaint them.)

So regular run of the mill folk have no value???

I'm impressed you have interpreted my post this way. Yes, of course regular run of the mill folk have value... ..but do their journeys and choices associated with them have more value than the costs associated with them?

I think the last time I "socialised in the street" was the Silver Jubilee in 1977.

That's a shame.

True, you're probably right. I live on a main road so the lines are blurred a little* for me.

It's why the two key transport planning documents are "Manual for Streets" - for residential streets and the like, and "The Design Manual for Roads and Bridges" for A roads, trunk roads, motorways etc.

Maybe some of the ire on this thread is because of a lack of distinguishing between which roads we're talking about...!

[quote=Cougar ]I think the last time I "socialised in the street" was the Silver Jubilee in 1977.

How sad. I'm one of the most socially retarded people you're likely to meet (even on here), yet still regularly talk to my neighbours in the street (actually that's probably the majority of my social interaction!) The kids also play in the street and it's great. Of course I am privileged middle class, and not only do I own the paved area in front of our house, our little cul-de-sac is also a paved shared use area without cars parked. But it would be nice if more places were a bit more like this, something which might be possible with less car hegemony.

True, you're probably right. I live on a main road so the lines are blurred a little* for me.

It was suggested earlier that if we were talking about on street parking we were talking about residential roads only residents (and visitors) drove down - my streetview link is a B road and the other one I mentioned is an A road. Both with residents on street parking.

That's a shame.

Not really, I spend time in and out with friends instead.

Besides, I live in a largely Asian-populated area rather than the rose-tinted Brexitesque ideal of middle England in the 1960s, so I'm unlikely to be drinking tea and eating cucumber sandwiches with my neighbours, sitting on a white picket fence discussing who's going to win in this year's Boat Race.

That's a shame.

[quote=Peyote ]It's why the two key transport planning documents are "Manual for Streets" - for residential streets and the like, and "The Design Manual for Roads and Bridges" for A roads, trunk roads, motorways etc.

...and you've missed out MfS2, which covers the sort of roads I'm talking about!

If you were building those same streets now with the expectation that both sides would be crammed with parked cars, and each house needing 2 or more spaces you'd do it differently, very differently.

[rant]
The problem is it's still [b]not[/b] done differently. Planners still allow developments to be built that have far too few parking spaces (or space to park cars). This is driven by an overarching strategy to decrease car use....except the components aren't joined up, people still have to use cars as the alternatives aren't up to scratch, the main one being public transport. There's also cycle route networks, car share schemes, even as far as faster broadband to allow more home or local working.

The route cause is ineffective Government policy, it puts the onus for change far too much onto private enterprise sector. The private sector wants to avoid as much of this change as possible as it usually affects profit.

E.g. having fewer parking spaces means you can build (and then sell) more houses on a piece of land.
[/rant]

I'm not not the most sociable of people but we go to around 10-15 street based social events a year.

I'm sure it's a regular occurrence in Royal Tunbridge Wells or somewhere, but where I live a "street based social event" would be everyone turning out to watch a car on fire.

That's a shame.

Not really,

It's not a shame that you don't, that's your choice, it's shame that you and others [i]can't[/i].

A Big jump here... but maybe if they could, communities would be more integrated and involved, rather than the street being something you escape from into your house. This thread has already demonstrated how such a trivial thing as parking a car can drive a wedge between neighbours 😉

...and you've missed out MfS2, which covers the sort of roads I'm talking about!

Apparently it's not as good a "policy" document as the previous two, so it doesn't carry the same weight in planning terms: I understand it didn't go through the right Government approval process and was never properly rubber stamped.

You're quite right though, it is a useful .doc and contains some great stuff to bridge the gap.

[quote=Cougar ]I'm sure it's a regular occurrence in Royal Tunbridge Wells, but where I live a "street based social event" would be everyone turning out to watch a car on fire.

But wouldn't it be nice if that wasn't the case? Sure I live in a Middle England village, but it's far from being mono-cultural - one of the people I interact with most often isn't white and wasn't born in this country.

[quote=Peyote ]Apparently it's not as good a "policy" document as the previous two, so it doesn't carry the same weight in planning terms: I understand it didn't go through the right Government approval process and was never properly rubber stamped.

fairy nuff - I've never done more than skimmed it (nor DMRB), mainly just aware of its existence to expand the principles of MfS (a document I have sadly read the majority of) into the sort of larger roads I've been discussing.

It's not a shame that you don't, that's your choice, it's shame that you and others can't

It's not really by choice, it's by circumstance. I'd [i]love[/i] to move to one of these nice little middle-class community-centric areas that some here seem to be assuming that everyone lives in, rather than one of the most deprived wards in the country.

The dominant community is centred around a religion, so whilst my neighbours get on well enough and give each other a cheery hello, take in parcels and so on, that's about the extent of our interaction.

Being STW, I'm sure someone will be along shortly to tell me it's all my fault and I should make more of an effort, but I'm afraid I'm not ready to sign up to the local Mosque quite yet.

I'm sure it's a regular occurrence in Royal Tunbridge Wells, but where I live a "street based social event" would be everyone turning out to watch a car on fire.

But wouldn't it be nice if that wasn't the case? Sure I live in a Middle England village, but it's far from being mono-cultural

Of course it would. And multi-cultural communities can work - London appears to (generally) for example. The problem comes when one - or two - cultures dominate the area; with one you're either part of that culture or you're not, and with two you've got friction and tension. With many cultures things generally seem to mix much better as far as I can see.

Your friend of undisclosed race and gender, do they take part in the local community events and generally integrate into the local culture? I bet they do. Where I live it's not that the Asian's haven't integrated; rather, they don't need to, it's me that would have to integrate into their community and as I said, I'm not ready to sell my soul to Allah just yet.

[quote=Cougar ]Your friend of undisclosed race and gender, do they take part in the local community events and generally integrate into the local culture?

Yes, of course - but we're veering wildly off topic here. Clearly there are other reasons why on street socialising doesn't work for you, but for many people the cars (parked or otherwise) significantly inhibit it.

I don't especially go out of my to interact with them either. That's what makes the street based social events so great.

It's a good point, and perhaps that's exactly what needs to happen here to bring people together. Don't get me wrong, there are local events in the town which does bring folk together; there's a carnival every year for instance, but that would be a "town" event rather than a "neighbourhood" event, if you see what I mean.

Sorry, I've derailed the thread somewhat. The point I was making really was, it's easy to wax lyrical about jumpers for goalposts from an ivory tower, but not everywhere is tea and scones.

Sorry, I've derailed the thread somewhat.

[img] [/img]

Clearly there are other reasons why on street socialising doesn't work for you, but for many people the cars (parked or otherwise) significantly inhibit it.

I'd cheerfully swap you for an area where people wanted to have a street party but parked cars were in the way. #firstworldproblems (-:

Anyway, isn't this two different things? If you wanted to have a street party, the solution is to tell everyone, "we're having a street party, everyone move your cars for the day," no? Happens all the time, I got a leaflet through the door the other day asking me not to park on the street to facilitate roadworks.

Whereas some seem to be objecting about disruption to day-to-day "socialising," and I'm perplexed as to what impromptu socialising you want to do in the middle of the road which is prevented by parked cars.

I'm perplexed as to what impromptu socialising you want to do in the middle of the road which is prevented by parked cars.

World Kerby Championships

I'm perplexed as to what impromptu socialising you want to do in the middle of the road which is prevented by parked cars.

I would've thought a burning car would do a fair bit of damage to the surrounding vehicles so...that. Probably.

There are two ways to do a street party on a public carriageway.
1. Do a temporary road closure through the local council. Includes notices telling people when there will not be access and when/where they cannot park etc
2. Do it illegally.

mrchrispy - Member
@dooosuk I'll wager you are near the Unicorn

Correct Mrchrispy.

Whereas some seem to be objecting about disruption to day-to-day "socialising," and I'm perplexed as to what impromptu socialising you want to do in the middle of the road which is prevented by parked cars.

Well, and I fully admit it is probably rose tinted nostalgia but I learnt to ride a bike on the street I lived in, I played with my friends in the street as I grew up. I sat on the garden wall and drank cider as a teenager! All this kind of stuff.

It's not necessarily formal "socialising" per se, I don't think I've ever been to street party for example. It's the informal everyday social contact that I miss I suppose. The presence of cars parked along the street, on the pavements and everywhere there's space (grass verges etc.), the associated noise, smell and pollution doesn't create an atmosphere conducive to this kind of social life.

I'm still not seeing how parked cars are preventing you from doing any of that stuff. How on earth are people parking which prevents you from riding a bike or sitting on a wall?

How much smell, noise and pollution does a parked car make?

It's seem that the real problem isn't parked cars, it's you and your mates not being 14 any more.

It's not necessarily formal "socialising" per se, I don't think I've ever been to street party for example. It's the informal everyday social contact that I miss I suppose. The presence of cars parked along the street, on the pavements and everywhere there's space (grass verges etc.), the associated noise, smell and pollution doesn't create an atmosphere conducive to this kind of social life.

+1. It's a public space that could be put to a range of uses, but is usually restricted to one.

I'm still not seeing how parked cars are preventing you from doing any of that stuff. How on earth are people parking which prevents you from riding a bike or sitting on a wall?

Parked cars make my street significantly less safe and pleasant to cycle on.

I'd have thought the moving ones would be more of an issue.

I'd have thought the moving ones would be more of an issue.

The two issues are not unrelated.

Indeed - I explained why a little earlier

I'm still not seeing how parked cars are preventing you from doing any of that stuff. How on earth are people parking which prevents you from riding a bike or sitting on a wall?

Parked cars obscure visibility, create additional hazards etc. It makes learning to ride a bike more hazardous. It doesn't stop me sitting on a wall and I think we're getting a bit bogged down in the specifics here. It just doesn't create a conducive atmosphere for stopping to chat and just being round other people.

How much smell, noise and pollution does a parked car make?

Lots when it's parking and starting off. The slower the vehicle the more concentrated the air pollution is. People who are doing deliveries block the road and leave the engine running because there's no space to do deliveries. There's lots of reasons why parked cars generate noise and pollution both directly and indirectly.

It's seem that the real problem isn't parked cars, it's you and your mates not being 14 any more.

Possibly, but I don't blame parked cars for that! I would like my kids to be able to enjoy the environment outside their home rather than having to walk to the nearest park. Maybe that is asking too much these days. I'm sure quite a few adults would be pleased to be able to do so too though.

I do wonder if a part of that problem is parents having (relative to the halcyon days of the 70s and 80s) less free time to actually take their kids somewhere?

I don't know, I guess I can sympathise, but I can't help but think that the solution to giving kids somewhere to play isn't "the street" (though again, I suppose it's different if you live on a leafy cul-de-sac rather than a main road). Maybe what's needed is more green spaces in urban areas or something?

Parked cars obscure visibility, create additional hazards etc. It makes learning to ride a bike more hazardous.

I'm trying to teach my young daughter to cycle safely on the road. That's difficult to do on my street when parked cars on both sides reduce it to a single track road.

I do wonder if a part of that problem is parents having (relative to the halcyon days of the 70s and 80s) less free time to actually take their kids somewhere?

Could be less free time. Although I didn't play with my parents on the street as a kid. I was taught to ride by my siblings too. My parents worked longer hours than I do anyway, but I guess that's not the case across the board.

I tried to explain earlier that it wasn't about specific reasons for using the street as something other than a means to get from A to B. It was having the opportunity to use it as space for a range of things, everything from kids playing, adults talking, somewhere to share a brew. Just general social life stuff that no longer happens there in many cases, with excess numbers of parked cars seeming to be a strongly related factor.

That's difficult to do on my street when parked cars on both sides reduce it to a single carriageway.

Which also seems to instill a sense of urgency in people to drive through as quickly as possible in case they meet something coming the other way.

Couger, I think you're getting bogged down in specifics, kids playing is just one example in a multitude of things. There's a lot more to it than the individual uses, put them all together, along with the psychological impact of the street not being somewhere you 'escape from' and it can make a massive difference to how people interact with each other, even tiny things you might not think about like people on the other side of the road being separated by a line (or two) of parked cars can alter and limit our social interactions.

Take the whole parking outside your house thing that seems to be the route of most of the issues highlighted in this thread.

Why do people want to park directly outside? There are a few legitimate reasons, like regularly having to load heavy objects, or a genuine lack of mobility, but mostly it's about wanting to be as close as possible, to minimise the time spent moving between car and house, even when we're only perhaps talking 5-10m away. Why are those 5-10m significant?

It's almost subconscious to most people but they have disregarded the street as a viable location for anything other than parking in their mind, so they want to minimise the time and effort moving from house to car, it's insidious but it changes our perception of the location and it's value for anything else.

Sure this isn't only due to cars and parking them, but it's wrapped up in a change in attitude, and a change in behaviour where we have become more insular, more bound to 'our' personal spaces. I'm not for one second blaming all the ills of the world on cars and parking them, but there's a correlation for sure.

I genuinely do not give a monkey's where my car is parked as long as it's within a few mins walk, it's often in our road, but frequently in in of the neighbouring roads, and I think part of my indifference to parking location is because I walk and cycle most places and have more direct interaction with my surroundings and the people nearby because of it. Maybe I'm wrong about that but I can't explain it away any other way.

I've taken to parking in the local playground, thusly freeing up space on the roads for the kids to play.
I'll be sure to park in the pub's beer garden when the adults want to socialise in the streets.

Just general social life stuff that no longer happens there in many cases, with excess numbers of parked cars seeming to be a strongly related factor.

I have lived on a number of streets which didn't have any parking issues. Few if any cars parked on the street. The general social life stuff never happened there either.

Parked cars may make a street more unpleasant but I don't believe it is a key factor in the way society has changed since the 70's.

I've taken to parking in the local playground, thusly freeing up space on the roads for the kids to play.
I'll be sure to park in the pub's beer garden when the adults want to socialise in the streets.

Those pesky kids don't pay road tax, either.

One of my neighbours is pretty anal about being parked directly outside his house, what make him that way? I have no idea. But I do know that his entire mental map of 'our street' must consist of his house, and the bit of pavement outside his house between it and the car, he simply never interacts with anything else in the street other than when he drives past in his metal and glass box, insulating him from it.

Could be less free time. Although I didn't play with my parents on the street as a kid. I was taught to ride by my siblings too. My parents worked longer hours than I do anyway, but I guess that's not the case across the board.

Yeah, I was trying to work it out. I remember playing on "the street" when I was very young, a relatively quiet side street at the time. But "the street" was basically the footpath, and I was expressly forbidden from crossing the road.

When I was older, "playing out" mostly meant time at my mate's house or at the park, but I suppose we were lucky enough to have a park in spitting distance of home. I learned to ride a bike under my own steam on a mate's cast-off (I was forbidden a bike as my mum argued that I was enough of a liability of foot, so obviously a far safer route was to hack around on deathtrap bikes with no brakes). And we rambled and explored as kids do, any bit of disused land and back street we could find. "Playing out" with family involved my folks taking me to parks or to places they wanted to go to.

But I've never really used local streets as a "social area" as you describe. I've never thought, "I'm making a cup of tea, then I'm going to drink it on the traffic island." It's alien to me. Though I do have a frame of reference in so far as an ex-girlfriend did live in such a place, an aforementioned leafy cul-de-sac in Fulwood, Preston. They'd have street parties for things like Halloween, all dress up and go round to each others' houses to quietly run their finger across the fireplace checking for dust. I thought it was by turns bizarre and awesome.

I remember my grandad, in the house I'm in now and with just as many cars parked outside, used to sit in the front garden and watch the world go by. He'd shoot the breeze with passers-by or folk doing the same in their front gardens, everyone knew each other probably because most had grown up together.

I don't really know where I'm going with this other than, well, I don't want to trot out "correlation =/= causation" or claim the car is king. But the assertion that you can't hang out on the streets like you used to because of parked cars doesn't feel right to me. Rather, if you lived with the sorts of neighbours who would socialise with each other, in the sort of area where popping round to your neighbours for a brew would be considered commonplace, then you'd socialise, cars be damned.

I don't really know where I'm going with this other than, well, I don't want to trot out "correlation =/= causation" or claim the car is king. But the assertion that you can't hang out on the streets like you used to because of parked cars doesn't feel right to me. Rather, if you lived with the sorts of neighbours who would socialise with each other, in the sort of area where popping round to your neighbours for a brew would be considered commonplace, then you'd socialise, cars be damned.

Fair enough, I won't try and persuade you anymore!

I will say though that I believe that a neighbourhood and the people that live there are not two separate entities, they influence each other, everything from the architecture, the road geometry and layout, the sociodemographics of the folks living there, the car ownership levels etc. All contribute to the greater micro-society. The behaviour of people I think is influenced by their environment and I also think that applies to simple, normal, everyday things as well as the wider ranging larger stuff.

Rather, if you lived with the sorts of neighbours who would socialise with each other, in the sort of area where popping round to your neighbours for a brew would be considered commonplace, then you'd socialise, cars be [s]damned.[/s] an annoying inconvenience which do over time create and reinforce changes in behaviour

Speaking from experience of having lived in a street that has been affected in such a way.

I will say though that I believe that a neighbourhood and the people that live there are not two separate entities, they influence each other, everything from the architecture, the road geometry and layout, the sociodemographics of the folks living there, the car ownership levels etc. All contribute to the greater micro-society. The behaviour of people I think is influenced by their environment and I also think that applies to simple, normal, everyday things as well as the wider ranging larger stuff.

that's it ^ put into words better than I could 🙂

we live on a main road but the houses ae set a bit back from the road. most houses have front gardens but ours is only one of the very few that have had the front garden turned into a driveway. previous owners did this before we bought the house. they also got the council to come and paint a white (no parking) line at the end of the drive.
i'm not sure who would enforce this as i've never seen a traffic warden on our road in the 5 years we've lived there and i doubt the police would be bothered.
having said that most drivers get the message and dont park there...we've only ever been blocked in about 3 or 4 times but its never been a big problem getting them to move. our neighbour has sometimes parked there for a short while but he's always been polite enough to ask/tell us first

Couger, I think you're getting bogged down in specifics, kids playing is just one example in a multitude of things.

Who?

I wasn't really looking for a definitive list, just trying to get an idea of a vital role for roads other than the movement of traffic that had a bit more substance than "wah wah cars." Which I think we have now.

Why do people want to park directly outside?

I can only speculate, but I think potentially the biggest factor might be the perception that it's their space. How many posts on this thread talk of people buying a non-runner just to prevent someone else using it? Or people like the woman I posted about, getting all passive-aggressive at me parking up for five minutes because she was "expecting visitors" on a completely empty street.

Sure this isn't only due to cars and parking them, but it's wrapped up in a change in attitude,

I'm inclined to agree.

I will say though that I believe that a neighbourhood and the people that live there are not two separate entities, they influence each other, everything from the architecture, the road geometry and layout, the sociodemographics of the folks living there, the car ownership levels etc. All contribute to the greater micro-society. The behaviour of people I think is influenced by their environment and I also think that applies to simple, normal, everyday things as well as the wider ranging larger stuff.

Yeah, well said.

Who?

dammit, I actually went back to edit that mis-spelling shortly after I typed it and then forgot while typing something else, sorry 😳

Why do people want to park directly outside?

I can only speculate,, but I think potentially the biggest factor might be the perception that it's their space. How many posts on this thread talk of people buying a non-runner just to prevent someone else using it

I'm actually genuinely interested in the psychology behind it. They must know deep down that they don't actually own it, and they must also realise if they thought about it the extra couple of meters wouldn;t make any difference, yet still it really is a major thing for some people.

I'd love to understand where that comes from, whether it's something about entitlement, or a minimising of external interactions, or a personal space thing, or a combination or something else, but it is curious.

They must know deep down that they don't actually own it

I'm not sure as that's true - or at least, certainly not always true. It's like the "you don't pay road tax" argument; cycling aside I saw a comment on Facebook the other day along the lines of "if we all have electric cars, how are we going to pay for the upkeep of the roads?" "Road tax" hasn't paid for the roads in eighty years and many folk - maybe even the majority - still think that it does. The notion that the space in front of your house is "your" parking space isn't a great leap.

I suppose as well, it's a mistake to underestimate people's ability to be peevish and petulant.

The notion that the space in front of your house is "your" parking space isn't a great leap.

Yeah, maybe I'm crediting people with too much knowledge and it is a simple assumption thing, but I'm sure if you stood in front of them and said "Do you really think you 'own' this section of road" most of them would know they didn't, the exception of course being private roads and such, but they're special cases and not really the kind of normal streets we are talking about.

Certainly anyone who has bought their house would know for sure what they did and didn't own as it'll have well been documented and described during the purchase.

And if you rent then you know for sure you don't own it, but again, I'm sure you'll know exactly what you're getting the use of for your rent, and what you are and are not entitled to, won't you?

I suppose as well, it's a mistake to underestimate people's ability to be peevish and petulant.

That's probably got more to do with it! I'm still gonna steer that one back to the why though, [i]why [/i]do they get that way? What is it that makes people get so protective of that space?

I'd love to understand where that comes from

I guess it starts from the obvious, but flawed logic that if we all just parked outside our own house then parking wouldn't be a problem.

I once lived in a new build street where everyone had 1 space per house and then were a number of parking bays designated as "visitor".

When I first moved in, everyone just used the visitor bays on "1st come 1st served". No problem.

There were insufficient bays to give every house 2 bays. One of my neighbours found out the visitor bays were actually owned by a number of the houses, he owned 2 parking bays.

So he went to the expense of sending solicitor letters to all of us about parking in them and then fitting posts with locked chains across his 2 bays.

He didn't own a car.

[quote=amedias ]Yeah, maybe I'm crediting people with too much knowledge and it is a simple assumption thing, but I'm sure if you stood in front of them and said "Do you really think you 'own' this section of road" most of them would know they didn't, the exception of course being private roads and such, but they're special cases

I think most of the people getting territorial about the bit of public space in front of their house are special cases

I'm still gonna steer that one back to the why though, why do they get that way? What is it that makes people get so protective of that space?

I wonder if it's just cumulative damage. Like, I doubt many people get bent out of shape the first time someone parks in "their" spot. However, over the years I can readily see how a little niggle turns into a massive chip on someone's shoulder.

You sometimes see folk with massive driveways, or farmyards, with signs up saying "no turning." I used to think "how petty can you get" - it's not like you're doing any damage or causing inconvenience. But if someone's using your yard as a turning circle 15 times a day I guess I can understand how you might get a bit grumpy about it.

i was amazed when i lived on a farm that someone knocked on the door to ask if it was ok to turn- IME it was no issue as its not like they are there for very long and we heard cars from the road anyway

@aracer pages back

and right there we have a typical motorists' "choice" which quite neatly sums up the background to the whole situation. It's like it's a multiple choice question: do I (a) block the movement of other traffic (b) obstruct pedestrians and break the law; because there aren't any other options are there?

Given my views and the fact i dont do it and i was guessing at why other folk do it I am not sure if its typical or not tbh I would imagine, given how some folk park the affect on other folk does not even cross their minds its probably just because it is easier for them. re football

Under section 161 of the Highways Act 1980 it is an offense to play football or any other game in the road to the annoyance of a user of the highway, those guilty of said offense is liable to prosecution and a fine not exceeding Level 3 on the standard scale.

I am not sure how you do this without annoyance - would you slow down for it if there were 30 kids playing football - is this an annoyance or hindrance. Either way I dont think it would be wise or legal to play a 90 minute game on a street and i would expect the police to move us all along.

I didn't realise the semantics were what the discussion was about. I stand corrected

I dont think you will find many folk who wish the roads had less traffic - as long as its other folk doing the less bit and not them. However given our reliance on cars I still see no easy solution to this issue. Everyone with a car [ and no drive] is part of the problem and the solution involves a radical overhaul of infrastructure and attitudes. I almost never use my car except for work and I walk or cycle everywhere else - and I cycle to work x2 per week @ 18 miles each way.

Why do people want to park directly outside?

Some seem to get irrationally annoyed by a road being using legally for vehicles but they really should have foreseen that problem before purchase- a bit like buying a house next to a school and then surprised its hard to get in or out at school times - annoying in that case but also inevitable. I would say folk parking outside your house is inevitable as well and it has never annoyed me.

I knew parking on the street but not nearby - always less than a minute usually not over 30 seconds away - was an issue. I also knew it did not bother me. I did not know how many folk felt very much differently about it.

[quote=Junkyard ]Given my views and the fact i dont do it and i was guessing at why other folk do it I am not sure if its typical or not tbh I would imagine, given how some folk park the affect on other folk does not even cross their minds its probably just because it is easier for them

I did appreciate it wasn't something you do - and I have to admit having some idea of your views I have wondered whether you're trolling a bit! I'm sure you'll have got that it was kind of a wider point regarding motorists attitudes and I only just resisted putting in a few other anecdotes of "well we have to do that" (because any alternative is inconvenient to them rather than illegal and/or inconvenient to other people).

Under section 161 of the Highways Act 1980 it is an offense to play football or any other game in the road to the annoyance of a user of the highway

Well there's me corrected on that one, and I have learned something in this thread. Though I suspect it is still possible to have a game without breaking that - and I'm damn sure given the police's reluctance to prosecute for more clear cut breaches of the Highways Acts that nobody has ever been prosecuted for it. TBH I'd be quite surprised if they were even prepared to move on people playing in the street given my experience of their reluctance to do anything about activities which clearly breached the law and are actually dangerous. I mean how often does anybody get prosecuted for breaching section 72 of the 1835 Highways Act?

trolling a bit!

Had a chat,on the phone, with a forum user you have met about this thread and i think part of it is just the way we all end up one sided on points.

Remove all cars we have spaces remove parked cars we still have cars moving and therefore its , at best, a dangerous public space and not one i want to chill out in or use for another purpose. I just dont see parked cars as stealing public space anymore than i see a moving one as stealing public space. I see soemting using public space

i wish there were a lot less of them but doesnt everyone even those with car[s]

Interesting about the legalities of playing football on the road, I wonder if the "to the annoyance of others" bit has ever been delved into at all? I'm guessing it is those using the highway to travel, rather than any other use e.g. parking their car. Would be a good one for the lawyers anyway.

As it happens when I used to play on the street there was always a shout of "Car!" if a car was coming and someone would grab the ball and we'd get out of the way (I should add this was a kickabout with half a dozen kids, not a proper game of football with thirty odd people). It makes sense if people are using the street to travel on. However, if they are using it to park on then I think there is a stronger argument for both uses to be considered.

a dangerous public space and not one i want to chill out in or use for another purpose.

Except in many cases it isn't necessarily a dangerous public space, it can be made dangerous by excessive numbers of parked cars and moving vehicles. Maybe others do want to chill out or use it for another purpose, but they can't because of the aforementioned issues.

I just dont see parked cars as stealing public space anymore than i see a moving one as stealing public space. I see soemting using public space

Fair enough, I'm afraid I disagree, but we're all free to have an opinion.

The notion that the space in front of your house is "your" parking space isn't a great leap.

I personally have received correspondence from people asking why we [the council] are not providing parking enforcement against people parked in 'their space' i.e. the bit of road in front of their house. Usually going on into details about how their neighbour who had the cheek to park there didn't seem to understand why they should move their car when shouted at.

"Road tax" hasn't paid for the roads in eighty years and many folk - maybe even the majority - still think that it does.

Hmm, well V.E.D. goes to central government and central government gives all the transport authorities monies for maintaining/improving roads, you could claim that only a portion of VED goes back to the roads, but, the assertion that some people have that all road maintenance is funded by council tax is rubbish.

Under section 161 of the Highways Act 1980 it is an offense to play football or any other game in the road to the annoyance of a user of the highway

breaching section 72 of the 1835 Highways Act?

Kids don't play "90 minute games of football," they play until they're bored or it's teatime. And by "play" I mean, one of them kicks a ball, another calls him a see you next Tuesday and they stand around arguing for half an hour.

I wonder if the "to the annoyance of others" bit has ever been delved into at all?

Having to get football-shaped dints pulled out of your car's bodywork is pretty annoying I expect.

Having to get football-shaped dints pulled out of your car's bodywork is pretty annoying I expect.

Certainly, I would imagine that would fall under some other legislation that would be easier to use than the Highways Act though.

Besides, in streets where the kids play football there should be sufficient social cohesion that the parents of the kids responsible are known by the vehicle owner so getting some recompense may be easier. Plus if the streets are being used for other stuff too, then there will be multiple witnesses, and low level antisocial behaviour/crime can be dealt with without getting the police involved! (most of that last paragraph was tongue in cheek)

Besides, in streets where the kids play football there should be sufficient social cohesion that the parents of the kids responsible are known by the vehicle owner so getting some recompense may be easier

in streets where the kids play football there should be sufficient social cohesion that the parents of the kids responsible are known by the vehicle owner so getting some recompense may be easier.

"Should" as in, it'd be good if there was, or there's likely to be?

There's a gang of kids that often [s]kick a ball against houses and cars and scream blue muder at each other[/s] play football in a little triangle where roads join across from me, I don't recognise any of them.

This playing football in the street is sentimental bollocks! Why would you want to?

We used to play football in the street in the 70's and 80's. However, it's a pretty rubbish place to play. We only really did it if we were playing "Spot" against a wall and then it was quite often at a group of garages, which you could still do today as there no parked cars and no through traffic.

If you wanted to play football you went to the park or played on the school field.

Sometimes some **** would call the police and we would get chased off the schoolfield. How ridiculous was that!

Can't be arsed to look that one up, is it the one about it being an offence to drive an ass on the Highway?

No, surprisingly enough it's actually very relevant to this thread - it's the bit of legislation which makes it illegal to park on the footway (unless you own a crane)

But how is the road space in front of a building split, when you live in one up one down set of flats?

Given I don't have a car, can I use my bit of road to have a picnic? 😆

But how is the road space in front of a building split, when you live in one up one down set of flats?

[img] [/img]

Obvs.

Not if the parents were the ones keying your car in the first place so that the road would be clear enough for little Johnny to play football in the street.
This is just too much for me to take in.

"Should" as in, it'd be good if there was, or there's likely to be?

Okay, okay. I won't do the "tongue in cheek" post again. I could see quite a few holes in that particular paragraph!

This playing football in the street is sentimental bollocks! Why would you want to?

True, I don't like football these days. My kids don't seem to like playing it either. It was just an easy example to use.

Lol at this thread, parking issues!?...move to the country Dahling, we have a nice garage, a double car port and a driveway you could park a double decker on....and it's gated.

City folk threads do make me chuckle...carry on.

I won't do the "tongue in cheek" post again.

I just wasn't sure of your meaning, is all.

move to the country Dahling

I'd love to. Can I borrow a quarter of a million quid please?

I remember playing kerbie in the street, riding bikes up and down the street and generally dicking about in ways that just aren't possible when every square metre of frontage is taken by parked cars.

And that was no more than 20-25 years ago.

Some of you hang onto an argument like a weasel on a wayward woodpecker. Nobody is saying that the local pub league will be out every sunday for a full 90 minute 11 a side match, it's just an example of other, more sociable uses of [b]residential roads[/b] than as bottlenecked car parks.

Can't be arsed to look that one up, is it the one about it being an offence to drive an ass on the Highway?

No, surprisingly enough it's actually very relevant to this thread - it's the bit of legislation which makes it illegal to park on the footway (unless you own a crane)

Er, no that can't be right as parking offences are dealt with by the 1984 Road Traffic Regulation Act. Basically footway parking is banned unless signed/bylawed otherwise inside London, and outside of london is allowed unless signed/bylawed otherwise.

[url= http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/Will4/5-6/50/section/72 ]<Checks section 72 of 1835 Highway Act>[/url], crikey I was actually right, it is the one about driving asses, lol, clearly I need to get out more.

well my hybred posh/rough street must be trapped in a time warp! the kids play football, cricket and ride bikes in the street 90% of people park on one side to ease traffic flow and we go out and talk to each other and occasionally drink tea or from cans in front of our houses . Only one family park on the grass verges but are otherwise lovely.
The one person who got angsty about people parking in front of her house was told in no uncertain terms to wind her neck in .

I remember playing kerbie in the street, riding bikes up and down the street and generally dicking about in ways that just aren't possible when every square metre of frontage is taken by parked cars.

And that was no more than 20-25 years ago.

Yep, me too.

Can't be bothered to read through the bickering to see if anyone has added these but..

Change is hard, but if New York can manage it...

Interesting regarding "footway parking" i.e. parking on the pavement being illegal unless specifically stated otherwise.

It's a problem locally and a massive problem in some areas I visit through work, where I end up having to walk in the middle of the road because drivers have left insufficient room for pedestrians to pass while staying on the pavement.

Can I have some "fun" with photos submitted to the local cop shop to give these inconsiderate ***** a fixed penalty notice?