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Intolerance is clearly king - Blimey 😯
I used to park in street by train station - perfectly legal - but I realised that it pissed the residents off a lot especially given the early starts of commuters like me. So now pay and park in the CP at the station and no one is upset. My more tight arsed friends still piss the resident off which seems a bit unnecessary. Still at least that means there are spaces in the CP 😉
We have disabled space wars in my street. It is a one way street so parking on side only, and a through road in an area in the older part of the town, housing built around 1830s. Not enough spaces for everyone to park, and lots of older people. The council has some kind of limit on how many disabled spaces are allowed, so some have taken to making what I can only describe as "ghetto" disabled spaces, putting up their own signs outside their houses. There are a couple of legit spaces, and I have heard stand-up shouting matches between the neighbours along the lines "its my space, not its not, its outside my house, its outside my house too etc etc". Funny but sad. I didn't wait to see if they went for each other with their walking frames.
My bugbear is people who can't park carefully and not take up huge spaces. Got a Range Rover ? Drive it in forwards and take up two car spaces, you deserve it. Grrrr. And yes, I have left notes asking them to park with more consideration for their neighbours. Shoot me !
*sigh* none of which have been proposed. It's a list, first come first served.
SIGH the only people on the list are poor as no one rich is on the list because they have a drive; it ONLY applies to poor people.
I have no idea why you think i have said thisI'm not sure where you get this idea from that on problem parking streets the rich will get all the spots whilst the poor are priced out this imaginary market.
Rich people wont be on the list as they have drives.Poor people have houses without drives and they are the only ones on the list. Is there a certain number of times i need to say this for you to get it?
Someone rich could have 35 cars as long as they can park them on their land so no. It harms those who dont have land to park their car which is poorer people as land is expensive.This doesn't harm poor people, it harms people who have far too many bloody cars
Hopefully repeating the point has worked
SIGH the only people on the list are poor as no one rich is on the list because they have a drive; it ONLY applies to poor people.
What's your defintion of rich?
[url= http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-40738011.html ]North of England £750k no parking[/url]
Is there a certain number of times i need to say this for you to get it?
You can say it as many times as you like. You will still be wrong. #junkyfact 🙂
Have i missed the part where a car was a basic human right afforded to all.
Have i missed the part where a car was a basic human right afforded to all.
In the West they almost are.
What Englishman will give his mind to politics as long as he can afford to keep a motor car?
George Bernard Shaw.
Cars keep the masses happy.
are - or assumed to be ?
You can say it as many times as you like. You will still be wrong. #junkyfact
yes its definitely not true that poorer people, in general, dont have fewer drives /parking spaces/land in comparison to the rich and houses with garages and drives dont, in general, cost more than houses without them 🙄
Your point, hilarious though it clearly is, is false.
Is there nothing on here we wont bicker over?
No matter how childish you wish to be, its a lot isnt it 😉 - the basic point that, generally, houses with parking cost more than houses without will remain true and therefore any policy to restrict on street parking will fall disproportionately on poor people
Anyone who can do some basic maths can see this is undeniably true.
Its not even a debatable point except on STW
You are right that in general poorer people will tend to live in smaller houses which are more likely not to have a drive.
Your post didn't say that.
it ONLY applies to poor people.
The emphasis on ONLY was yours.
That simply isn't true.
You constantly correct people on here about "facts"! This is just another #junkyfact.
Junkyard
Why should my taxes as a non car owner subsidise those who own cars?
I have no issues with subsidising essentials such as housing but luxuries such as cars that have a negative effect on my quality of life?
I only correct jamby on that point. I doubt even you wish to defend him on his accuracy- you certainly never object when i say it to him.
I dont think I am a poster who posts completely false statements and then ignores the evidence so I think that is a bit weak.
Probably fair to say I should have used more precise language and said very few rich people will be impacted by this and the overwhelming majority will be poor and by overwhelming i mean 99%+
Every other post just says it falls disproportionately on the poor which is true
Are you saying you agree with this assesment and just object to the word ONLY?
I have not accepted they do?Why should my taxes as a non car owner subsidise those who own cars?
Why should my taxes subsidise ill people?
Its a society it makes decisions some you agree with some you dont.
Most [s]people[/s]Households* have a car in the UK is probably the reason. Unfortunately we dont get tax bills based on what we sue or what we like to fund.
* i googled it gobby 😀 and deduced from this http://www.poverty.org.uk/75/index.shtml
NB gobby is not meant as a pejorative but only as an abbreviation for clarity
I agree with the subsequent re-assessment.
The word ONLY is a pretty key part of the statement.
However, it's a bit of a moot point, it's completely obvious that the control and management of ANY resource that was previously freely available to all, will effect the poor more than the rich.
There are lots of "rich" people who have to park on the street and need a car to earn a living. They would also be affected.
I dont think there are lots there are a few % wis. I cannot think of any expensive area locally to me that ONLY 😉 has on street parking
I assume this is true in most areas.
Probably requires historic towns like York/Harrogate up North and expensive places like Bath and London for it to be true but not certain
Edinburgh has some [b]very[/b] expensive houses with on-street parking only (thinking round the New Town, top of the Royal Mile etc but I'm sure there are more).
Anyways, when did UK society split into Rich and Poor. I'm sure the vast majority of us lie somewhere in the middle.
Probably requires historic towns like York/Harrogate up North and expensive places like Bath and London for it to be true but not certain
Wrong. Again.
[url= http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sale/property-61770137.html ]Newcastle £825k no parking[/url]
Also, there are loads of houses that only have a single garage or space for one car, I guess that the majority of working households have at least 2 cars, so some on-street parking is necessary.
With property prices still through the roof, adults remain at the family home much later, I and the majority of my mates bought houses in our 20's. Doesn't happen much now.
Edit - Just noticed a single garage on the floor plan, however, as above, I would wager my house on the fact they will have multiple cars.
Junky - you're talking about across a whole country, I'm talking about things on a street by street basis. So it doesn't matter if we're talking about Govan, New Town or Putney - areas where parking is at a premium will all be equally affected regardless of class. It's about allocating resources(in this case space) as equally as possible rather than the present free for all we find ourselves in.
Besides which, these areas already typically charge for resident parking permits. My proposal is simply to ration these existing permits so as to distribute them equally.
I think what's happened is you're getting bogged down in semantics over what you think I mean rather that what I'm actually saying. There have been numerous studies proving that what I propose would bring a net benefit (albeit most of these are regarding the complete elimination of cars).
Problem is Dave.
The charges start with just an admin fee.....and trn the council's pump the fees up wrn they get the agreement from residence. Cash cow.
It happens with alarming regularity round ere . Look outside rgu in Aberdeen. 45 quid a car.
Junkyard
Can I have ten square metres of public land for my exclusive use then?
Bloody hell, this went tedious in the last few hours 😥
Bring back the stories of nutcase neighbours and stupidity.
and remember everyone, in a battle of stupid vs. stupid - stupid always wins.
Can I have ten square metres of public land for my exclusive use then?
TJagain ever locked your bike up in a public place on a footpath etc?
This could be causing an obstruction to pedestrians in the same way but on a smaller scale!
sometimes your arguments are rediculous
yes buy a car and park it legally 😉Can I have ten square metres of public land for my exclusive use then?
What about the public space you get exclusively for your bike when you go out- can I have that please so you cannot use it?
I know and most of those streets will be where poor people live as rich people have drives. I dont know why you wont just accept this is the case.you're talking about across a whole country, I'm talking about things on a street by street basis
I am ok with the fact you are not deliberately setting out to target them but it is still the consequences - more poor folk affected than rich.
Oh the irony. I know what you are saying you just dont seem to be able to grasp that it will fall more on poor people than the rich. I am all for reducing car usage but it needs to be evenly distributed across society rather than predominately weighted to those who cannot afford private parking.I think what's happened is you're getting bogged down in semantics over what you think I mean rather that what I'm actually saying
Where i live permit parking only seems to exist in places near town centres to discourage workers hogging the spaces of the locals. I am not aware of any that are not within 5 mins walking distance of the town centre.
Or you just cherry picked an extremely atypical example. I am not denying you can find them I am saying they are not the norm and the majority of those [99% +] affected wont be living in 850 k houses.Wrong. Again
I would have thought that too but when i googled before to say household apparently 1 is the average - median/modal rather than mean. Surprised me that tbh as I assumed most had two.I guess that the majority of working households have at least 2 cars, so some on-street parking is necessary
more stories of nightmare neighbours & passive aggressive notes under wipers please.
I live in an end terrace and there is space for three cars at the side I let my neighbour park there as he has three cars so it helps the street and my car is tiny so no big deal.
One day he came round and was talking about gravelling it and I said yes ok. He then said "so when are you going to do it then"
I laughed and he got upset as it was mine. I said he could always not park there then and get off my land. he does not speak to me now as letting him use it is not good enough I need to maintain it for him.
Once had someone threaten to ram my car if i did not move it. I laughed and pointed out that their bumper - brand new merc- was worth more than my entire car and ramming my tow bar would be an amusing thing to watch. They declined to carry out the threat. they were visiting someone and i was directly outside the house on the street.
Not quite up there with the funny stories but trying to get it back on track
jekkyl - Member
more stories of nightmare neighbours & passive aggressive notes under wipers please.
https://www.buzzfeed.com/simoncrerar/angry-windshield-notes?utm_term=.laLlenYrM#.gtxLPAmza
Firstly...in the history of stw I have never agreed more wholeheartedly with a post than this...
Bloody hell, this went tedious in the last few hours
Bring back the stories of nutcase neighbours and stupidity.
Not got any good stories, but 20ish years ago I was *that* guy. We had moved into a terraced house on a main road - with a really wide pavement that everyone parked on. The bit outside my house had a slightly lowered kerb, so whilst not strictly legal, I found it easier to park my hot hatch outside. I say hot hatch...my mate had a 205gti, another had an AXgt...I had a 1.1 metro with a Kenwood sticker on the back...but you get the idea.
My house was one of 8 terraced new builds, and clearly the people over the road had been using the pavement my side to park...then we came along and ruined it.
One night I came back from work, saw the over the road neighbours car parked in *my* spot and started shouting the odds. Next thing I know this guy bowled over clearly wanting to argue.
My mates came pouring out of my house to back me up, it was only when I asked the guy who the **** he thought he was,..he produced his warrant card and said DC whoever that I had a moment of clarity. It was a Friday night, so as normal we had tens of pills, ounces of powder and grass, strips of acid etc. In the house. I figured it was best not press the issue.
I haven't got precious about parking ever since....you never know!
Oh, and Haze....nothing to do with us 😉
northern town, 3 blocks of social housing 80 flats in each block, a few garages to rent, and a few spaces on street, and the car parks unless you have a residents permit only allow workmen and visitors like me 2 hours, to park or a 100 quid fine, all because residents where handing out there visitor parking passes for non residents to park for free.
I am that resident. Here's my tail of petty neighbourly passive agressiveness.
We're having a minor parking dispute with our neighbours. We live in a semi, they're our through the wall neighbours. Nice folk mostly, except they have 2 cars, a camper and caravan. They park both cars in the mud / gravel that used to be the front garden by driving over the pavement (no drop kerb) thus eliminating an on street space. The caravan (mouldy, mildewy mess of thing) and the shanty 30 year old rusty camper go on the drive. It should also be noted they have a horrible yappy rat dog.
This was all fine, because mostly it's the folk across the road that have to look out at the scrap yard. We can't see it day to day.
Then the mother came to stay for a few days and brought her rusty 25 year old car and dumped it outside our house. No big deal, it's a public road. Unfortunately she has never left. So now they have 3 cars, a caravan and a camper.
We have 2 cars, we try to keep them on the drive so the road is clear and free for visitors to any of the houses. Our resentment of the car outside our house built up over time because the only reason it was there was they couldn't be bothered to shuffle their own cars and use the space outside their house.
So we seethed quietly for a while, parked within 3mm of the bumper for a bit until finally my wife manned up and told them they were taking the piss and to beat it. So the mother has now taken to dumping the car in front on their neighbours to the other side and we all no longer talk.
tjagain - Member
Junkyard
Can I have ten square metres of public land for my exclusive use then?
I don't have kids. Can I get the portion of my tax back that goes towards schools?
I have private medical insurance. Can I get the portion of my tax back that goes towards the NHS?
Etc 🙄
Our old house in Killin was at the middle of a tourist attraction. The private driveway bordered the road, the Kids (downstairs) bedroom windows right against the one car width driveway. Next to us was open gate to garage and both house back gardens.
We would have endless streams of cars using the private drive 'for just a few minutes mate". I used to ignore most, but now and again it took grumpy_oab to get involved.
- the group of landrover owners, who having seen the garage had left two hire 110's on my back lawn for me, chose to just drive in the private yard and onto my and the neighbours grass too. They at least were deeply apologetic when I pointed out it was just my back garden, not a 110 owners day out parking facility.
- the group of bikes who not only pulled into and filled the yard ("no one was in mate") with bikes, but then we're taking it in turns to pee around the back of the garage. They were reluctant to leave until a passing car stopped, and Iona one of the village PC's flashed a warrant card and told them to scarper before she Returned in uniform...
- another group of bikers who lined up on front drive, refused to move so mrs_oab could park, and then started revving an engine so they couldn't hear her complaints. Again, they left sharpish when Mrs_oab called our friend Andy the other village PC and asked for him to pop on his uniform and come down to help.
- our (holiday home) neighbours who shared the front parking used to get really wound up. However one day son used his car and fathers car to block in an errant visitor who had parked car and gone off for a days hillwalking and evening meal. He failed to notice the French plates, but did observe the Parisian approach to exiting a parking spot, using bumpers and a firm approach to the throttle.... 😯
- we had weekly dafties - park car and go to pub for night or hillwalking for the day. It was incredible some of the arrogance and lack of awareness.
I don't have kids. Can I get the portion of my tax back that goes towards schools?
It's a fair point but those kids will be the ones wiping your bum and changing your sheets when old age catches up with you. 😀
I live above some shops and there is parking ot the front consisting of two lay-by 's opposite each other, I without fail everyday will see someone drive past both of these ans park on the curb over double yellows and within 5 feet of the junction to save themselves 10 feet of walking to the shops...
Same thing where I work, there are double yellows for the first 20feet of parking by the shop (because it is on a busy junction) but after that a whole street of free for 2 hours parking, but a huge number of people still just dump their car on the double yellows to save that whole 20 paces extra.
"Can you make it quick I need to get back to the car I'm on the double yellows" 🙄
First day my dad moved in to his house I parked opposite, the whole street was empty as the other houses all have drives. 2 mins after walking in, a neighbour knocks on the door and aggressively asks me to move my car as "traditionally" their side of the street park there. Everytime I visit it is empty. People must live very unfulfilled lives to worry about such things
[quote=wiggles ]I live above some shops and there is parking ot the front consisting of two lay-by 's opposite each other, I without fail everyday will see someone drive past both of these ans park on the curb over double yellows and within 5 feet of the junction to save themselves 10 feet of walking to the shops...
Same thing where I work, there are double yellows for the first 20feet of parking by the shop (because it is on a busy junction) but after that a whole street of free for 2 hours parking, but a huge number of people still just dump their car on the double yellows to save that whole 20 paces extra.
"Can you make it quick I need to get back to the car I'm on the double yellows"
Almost every time I go past here: https://goo.gl/maps/ewJyfUtBkbp there is somebody parked on the footway next to the double yellows there. I don't think I've ever had a problem finding a space in the car park at the back of the shop (scroll left a bit to see the road to it), but clearly that's too far to walk for some. The alternative is to park on the double yellows on the road to the car park - and I honestly didn't check before making that link and posting it, only after writing the comment about the car park!
My old neighbor used to put dog shit under the handles of cars that parked outside her house.
First words my neighbour said to me when we moved in to our house were "you taking the piss with this parking mate?"
Apparently they were in the middle of an acrimonious divorce and I guess me taking "his" spot must have been the cherry on the cake. After all it's hard to put your car on the drive or in the garage when you're full of hate for the mother of your children. Things improved after he left.
I do hope your reply to that question was "yes" 😈
As for the land it belongs to all but I can't use it cos there's cars parked on it so only a few get the benefit of something owmed by all
Seeing as how I live nearly four hundred miles and a six hour drive south of you, TJ, and in another country entirely, I'd like a quick explanation as to what, exactly, you'd be using the space in front of my house for?
Especially, as by your own admittance, it's a public space, and available for anyone to use, but as it's actually a public road, usage would be limited to driving/cycling over it because there's sod-all else you can us it for.
Except for the legal parking of a car that complies with current car legislation vis tax, insurance, etc.
It does strike me that the greater majority commenting here are urban dwellers who have adequate access to public transportation.
I really shouldn't have to go through the tedious process of explaining that the huge number of people who live in widely spread rural communities have absolutely sod-all access to public transport of any meaningful usage! I have friends who either have two buses per day that are reasonably accessible, ie one early morning, the other in the afternoon, or else involve a walk of at least a mile, possibly two or three, to get to a place where they might stand any chance at all of catching the only bus that might get to within a couple of miles of their desired destination!
Still, who gives a shit about the miserable peasants who smell of cow shit and live in hovels out in the sticks sucking up [i]their[/i] taxes by having the effrontery to want to own a cheap car in order to earn a living, get their kids to the only school that's eight or nine miles away, since the village school closed down, do their weekly shop, since the village shop closed down, get their pension, since the local post office closed down, go for a drink, since the village pub closed down, or any other *ing thing that resembles having the sort of life that you bloody townies take for *ing granted!
Christ!
🙄
[quote=CountZero] in another country entirely
Not yet...
Though TJ's point here isn't about car usage (which is most of what you seem to be on about) but use of public space for long term storage of personal property. Given I park my car on my own private property but have a lot of stuff, would it be OK if I bought a container to dump on the public road outside my house* to store the other stuff in?
*well strictly speaking I own the communal area in front of my house so it would be a bit further to walk to my container on the nearest public road
Think we could do with some defloculant...
Property is theft! Who has the right to own any land and call it private property?
Rather see land made available for everyone to use; as cars are not permanent fixtures rather than individuals being able to exclude public usage for their own personal gain and benefit.
Just been reminded of the time I came back from work at 2am to find someone attending a party down the road had kindly dumped their car in the off-road space allocated to my flat. Not only that, they'd parked so badly that they took up both of the spaces.
Being both tired and pissed off, I parked directly behind to block them in. They didn't ask me to move my car the next morning and that afternoon I went back to work - in a taxi. I was away from home for a week.
Given I park my car on my own private property but have a lot of stuff, would it be OK if I bought a container to dump on the public road outside my house
Yes you just have to put wheels on it and an engine tax and insure it and them move it regularly lots of miles to put it somewhere else
It may be fair to say cars are "special" but the public space is a place the public can legally park. the only folk deprived of its use are those without cars and they dont need it as they have not got a car.
This country is pretty car focused and this attitude seems common. The notion that the [i]only[/i] use for road space is for cars (and specifically car owners) is laughable.the only folk deprived of its use are those without cars and they dont need it as they have not got a car.
When I was a lad the streets were for playing in - and you could because there were fewer cars.
This country is pretty car focused and this attitude seems common. The notion that the only use for road space is for cars (and specifically car owners) is laughable.
In this country the car is king, so many peoples existence is defined by their ego chariot.
I like cars but I view them in the same way I view the game of football, it's the people who turn something that should be liberating into a territorial tribal angst vehicle. Football fans/motorists are mostly cocks.
As they say don't hate the game hate the player.. no that's not right. 😕
If there wasnt as many cars littering the streets the streets would be twice as wide and the general public could get around faster....
was up visiting my Dad this summer, he lives in a victorian era terraced narrow street. Cars on both sides well up onto the pavements so the flags are all broken and wobbly, can't get a pram or wheelchair on the pavement so you'd have to use the road. It was ok when I was a kid, but now it's 3 cars per house or even more for the houses that have been divvied into flats. Felt a bit of a prick for parking my big black van about 3 feet from someone's living room window blocking out all the light but sadly I suppose they're used to it. Didn't find any new scratches or dog poo on the door handles anyway.
Where I live, city centre, you pay a resident's permit to park in about a 1km radius, otherwise it's pay and display (or rent a space in the underground car parks). Currently my car is parked a good 10mins walk away, which is fine as I barely use it.
In this country the car is king, so many peoples existence is defined by their ego chariot.
Surely home ownership and taking land out of the public domain and into private ownership is king.
And I think that is the whole point of this thread in that home owners take that (selfish) ownership which spills onto the public road and would be confirmed in the thread. There are some who think that people should be barred from using the public and shared space of the road, yet private ownership that precludes the use of land by the masses is correct. 😕
^ I'd say private landlords are King, much more so than living in the home you own.
Live in a village that is mostly road side parking and people have 2,3 even 4 vehicles. It only gets busy at weekend meal times as the pub is pretty good. Villagers know who's car is who's and will double park from time to time. Most importantly, we know where the milk tanker and tractors won't fit through without a bit of collateral damage when parking up.
Our neighbour is quite into 'owning' his parking space and as a result people tend not to park in front of our house either.
[quote=Junkyard ]Yes you just have to put wheels on it and an engine tax and insure it and them move it regularly lots of miles to put it somewhere else
Except (as evidenced by many other posts on this thread) there's absolutely no requirement to do the latter. Even the majority of cars which do regularly move tend to spend the vast majority of their time stationary taking up public space within a 100m radius.
It may be fair to say cars are "special" but the public space is a place the public can legally park. the only folk deprived of its use are those without cars and they dont need it as they have not got a car.
Even ignoring the point others have already made about depriving the space to road users other than car owners (oh and the one about depriving the space to pedestrians by pavement parking - you could suggest it's a different subject, but it's all part of the same thing), by depriving it from other people with cars trying to use the roads for their primary purpose that is both delaying them and making the roads less safe.
Even ignoring the point others have already made about depriving the space to road users other than car owners (oh and the one about depriving the space to pedestrians by pavement parking - you could suggest it's a different subject, but it's all part of the same thing), by depriving it from other people with cars trying to use the roads for their primary purpose that is both delaying them and making the roads less safe.
And which roads would those be?
Oh, residential roads, because the roads that actually carry the majority of traffic that's really travelling any significant distances, and moving people to and from places of work, etc, don't have cars parked on them. The cars are parked on residential streets, where traffic travels slowly, and in many places is subject to 20mph limits, these are the roads where the car owners actually live, so the only people who would be utilising the space the car is taking up is someone who lives there, and what, pray tell, would they be using the space outside their houses for, other than to park a car?
Park a caravan?
You could argue that it's depriving the kids of a place to play, but with so many cars around, because of the paucity of public transport, having the roads empty of parked cars would only encourage drivers to ignore 20 mph signs and drive faster.
It's a road, it's there for cars and other traffic, it's not and never was put there for recreational purposes.
This country is pretty car focused and this attitude seems common. The notion that the only use for road space is for cars (and specifically car owners) is laughable.
It's a sodding road! What the hell do you imagine the roads were built for, other than to allow the movement of people and goods from one place to another, they're not there for people to walk or play on, that's what footpaths and playing fields are for!
[quote=CountZero ]The cars are parked on residential streets, where traffic travels slowly, and in many places is subject to 20mph limits, these are the roads where the car owners actually live, so the only people who would be utilising the space the car is taking up is someone who lives there
Really? Just the first example I could think of, but I live several miles from https://goo.gl/maps/p4H2aw3QzMM2 and quite often use that road to get somewhere else which isn't there - typical average speed along there is <20mph, but that's not because you're travelling at less than 20 when you're moving, so it's not making the road safer. Oh and it's like that on and off for well over a mile. BTW the other possible route I could use also has parked cars getting in the way and the chances are you're also likely to have to completely stop because of them (on the road linked I don't think I've ever driven along it without having to stop at least twice).
It's a sodding road! What the hell do you imagine the roads were built for, other than to allow the movement of people and goods from one place to another
That road makes part of quite a decent cycling route - not all road users are cars - at least going uphill it does, going downhill the amount of times you have to slow down for traffic coming the other way spoils it (the cars are mostly parked on the downhill side of the road, so you have priority going up).
Bwahahahahaha
Sometimes I miss those days when I was dealing with the consultation & implementation of Controlled Parking Zones
Not 😀
I wonder if folks left horses tied up out side for weeks on end in the olden days ?
I wonder if folks left horses tied up out side for weeks on end in the olden days ?
Horses being left to graze on public/private land was and is an issue actually.
Back when horses were more common on the roads their emissions were an environmental problem too, there were too many people expecting other people to clear up their s### 🙂
Woodburn on the A68 going towards Jedburgh/Ottorburn pisses me off.
They have had fancy flashing don't speed signs put up through their village, please slow down signs etc, and yet within a few meters of entering the village there is always one or two people parked half on the pavements and half on the road outside their houses.
Boils my piss.
They worry about people speeding, but don't worry about pedestrians trying to get by.
Good point the last thing we want to happen to public space is that the public use it as their spacetaking up public space within a 100m radius.
Well my car does this when its moving as well. What would you like me to do about that? Is it only an issue when its not moving? Your bike takes up space i would use and much faster than you so frankly get the **** out my way as you are in the way and impeding my progressEven ignoring the point others have already made about depriving the space to road users other than car owners
Its not really depriving you of anything that useful..unless you wanted the parking space 😉
I never pavement park. Outside mine[ double yellows] parking on the other side of the [ one way] street we get it as folk are too lazy to walk less than 100 m from where they can legally park and it is antisocial.
Problem is in some terraced areas it is the only way to get all the cars in the street but not an issue at mine. I guess the choice for some is block the road or block the pavement a little bit. The later is preferable to the former though its hard to argue its considerate in general.
This was incorrect the first time you posted it. Its still wrong now. Lots of uses for road space beyond being a car park.Its not really depriving you of anything that useful..unless you wanted the parking space
Roads were around for centuries before cars!
Something went wrong with car ownership. People said it was more convenient to have their own car than to use public transport, but now cars are everywhere clogging up roads and pavements, they are making things decidedly less convenient. Plus, we've gradually lost our once-decent public transport system from most parts of the country.
Our street has a single, very narrow footpath on a camber, which is tricky to walk on if you are carrying something or pushing a buggy, made worse by passing motorists behaving like they have priority over pedestrians, mounting the pavement regardless of whether there are people on it. I've been passed many a time with millimetres to spare. I complained to the council, who acknowledged there was a problem but couldn't do anything about it.
Manual for Streets - DfT guidance on street and residential road design explains that roads are not merely used as a method of getting from origin to destination:
"However, it is all too easy to forget that
streets are not just there to get people from
A to B. In reality, streets have many other
functions."
"Places and streets that have stood the test
of time are those where traffic and other
activities have been integrated successfully,
and where buildings and spaces, and the needs
of people, not just of their vehicles, shape the
area."
Unless you cannot get down the street due to parked cars then the deprivation is not real its just a minor inconvenience - which is what every other road user is to me all the time as I have to stop at junctions and red lights. If they were not there then the public space would be much nicer for me to drive on unhindered. Like arguing i cannot stand there because someone is stood talking to someone in a pedestrian zone- yes they have deprived me of space but i can still get to where i am going and /or stand somewhere else.Lots of uses for road space beyond being a car park..
the use of a road is to traverse it till this is curtailed the "deprivation of use" argument is weak- what do you want a game of footy on the road but you cannot due to parked cars?
I agree we have an issue and we need to get weaned off car dependence
It is real deprivation. If the space is used to park cars it is depriving others of the use of the space. You can't play football there, you can't stop and chat to your neighbours there, you can't use it to teach your kids how to ride a bike/make a go cart etc.
Loads of uses that are not just for cars!
what do you want a game of footy on the road but you cannot due to parked cars?
Are you finally getting it?!
Around our way there is not really room for cars to park both sides of the road. The people that **** me off are the ones who have to park directly outside their house even if the person opposite has done the same..
They could park 20 feet up the road but it has to be directly outside.
It's a problem for the delivery drivers and ****ing irresponsible to block a road so that a fire engine can't get down it.
**** you you ****ing lazy ****s.
It is real deprivation. If the space is used [s]to park cars[/s] as a private driveway/garden/building plot it is depriving others of the use of the space. You can't play football there, you can't stop and chat to your neighbours there, you can't use it to teach your kids how to ride a bike/make a go cart etc.
At least when I move one of the cars the space becomes available for someone else to use.
#Sharing
Loads of uses that are not just for cars!
All of which deprive someone of that space - you missed that point.
You bastards if you play football there you deprive me of my use as now i cannot play cricket - i think we have now successfully proved that when someone is using a public space to do their thing we cannot do our thing....who knew eh and of course playing football in the road is a perfectly legal activity as opposed to parking a car and wont deprive anyone of that space
Its still a poor argument
I never pavement park.
After 20-odd years of (almost) never parking with wheels on the footpath, I've started doing it at home. The reason being, everyone else does it so I'm stuck out further if I don't, and I've recently had the side of my car taken off for the second time (first was a write-off, second almost was).
Roads were around for centuries before cars!
True, but flawed. We can argue that roads were originally built for farmers' pony & trap or for Roman chariots or whatever, but the modern infrastructure we have today is primarily (though of course not exclusively) built for the mighty car. If we invented teleporters and got rid of all the cars, do you think we'd still be building roads? I very much doubt it.
You can't play football there
(and many variations on a theme)
Good. There's no need for it, we have dedicated recreation areas for this sort of thing. Go find a park. Play on the car-free drive everyone seems to have. Don't all you middle-class WCBs have huge lawns and gardens in your mansions?
Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to drive around my local football field for a bit.
[quote=Junkyard ]I guess the choice for some is block the road or block the pavement a little bit. The later is preferable to the former though its hard to argue its considerate in general.
and right there we have a typical motorists' "choice" which quite neatly sums up the background to the whole situation. It's like it's a multiple choice question: do I (a) block the movement of other traffic (b) obstruct pedestrians and break the law; because there aren't any other options are there?
All of which deprive someone of that space - you missed that point.
You bastards if you play football there you deprive me of my use as now i cannot play cricket
Ah, so you want to have a 15 hour long cricket match? Or maybe a bit longer (given the streetview link I posted up there is always like that, even during the working day, so presumably the cars only move occasionally).
of course playing football in the road is a perfectly legal activity
Of course it is - but then you knew that didn't you? So I presume you're not trying to insinuate that it isn't.
All of which deprive someone of that space - you missed that point.
Apologies Junkyard, I didn't realise the semantics were what the discussion was about. I stand corrected!
I suppose the question then is, what additional benefit is the "other activities" compared to the car-parking? Difficult to quantify I'm sure, but I hope most people would be able to see that playing cricket (or whatever other social activity) offers additional benefits to the individuals and society compared to parking a car. I'd be interested to hear the argument from the other side though!
Not that I'm particularly trying to use the playing footy in the street argument - I have better ones. Another local road which I often cycle I've more than once had an unsafe close pass on when I've pulled out towards the middle of the road to pass parked cars (on one occasion I'm sure if I hadn't taken evasive action I would have been hit). Now you might argue this is the fault of the overtaking drivers, but it's a wide road and if it wasn't for the parked cars there would be plenty of space for them to pass me safely even with oncoming traffic.
We can argue that roads were originally built for farmers' pony & trap or for Roman chariots or whatever, but the modern infrastructure we have today is primarily (though of course not exclusively) built for the mighty car.
I think that most folks here are talking about residential streets, rather than A-roads and the like. It's probably a good idea to differentiate.
If we invented teleporters and got rid of all the cars, do you think we'd still be building roads
Of course we would, we need somewhere to socialise and do all the other stuff previously mentioned. Where better than outside your front door?
Good. There's no need for it, we have dedicated recreation areas for this sort of thing. Go find a park.
Very good. 😆
I hope most people would be able to see that playing cricket (or whatever other social activity) offers additional benefits to the individuals and society compared to parking a car.
You're making a massive assumption that the car being parked there is of no "value".
Doctor driving to work to perform life saving surgery
Caregiver parked at a patients home providing valuable services
etc
Not that I'm particularly trying to use the playing footy in the street argument
I think any specific activity other than transport will be pulled apart.
[quote=Junkyard ]Its not really depriving you of anything that useful..unless you wanted the parking space
As explained above it's depriving me of the road space to safely use the road. But I realised we can expand on that argument. So if the road works perfectly fine as a means to get from one place to another even with the parked cars on, then presumably we could remove all the parked cars and make the road narrower. Yay, lots of space for dedicated cycling infrastructure!
You're making a massive assumption that the car being parked there is of no "value".
No I'm not. That's why I said additional benefits, the presumption being that the original use had a benefit.
Besides, what kind of proportion of parked cars are Drs on call or caregivers? I suspect it's pretty low compared to regular run-of-the-mill folk.
Over the last few summers we've had a 'make sundays special' event once a month. Close off a handful of streets to cars and let people use them for other things. Luckily the people have been a little more imaginative and have found some other uses.
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You'd think the mayor had suggested killing each car driver's first born from the attitude of some drivers to losing access to a few roads but it was hugely successful. Obviously this was a special event but there are far more mundane things. A lot of our local streets still have street parties where neighbours get together, markets (either official or adhoc), art events.
This...
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Or this...
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But actually maybe it isn't even a choice, maybe we can do both. Just need a little give from the main taker.
I suspect it's pretty low compared to regular run-of-the-mill folk.
So regular run of the mill folk have no value???
This whole "car's shouldn't be parked on the road" argument sounds an awful lot like car drivers moaning that "cyclists shouldn't be on the road"...