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No one’s mentioned this on any radio debates, but isn’t the solution to a temporary lack of gust for wind turbines to simply build more hydroelectric dams?
That’s a way to store excess electricity, without massive batteries.
There’s a hydroelectric dam at mt Snowdon. The dam releases the water at peak electricity usage and then the water gets pumped back uphill during off-peak times.
Robing Peter to put Paul that
Hydro dams are an ecological nightmare.
More so the land your about to flood Belongs to someone and is a Habitat to something.
Yes, but you need to identify some suitable locations to turn into lakes and understand the effects downstream. The NIMBY's moan enough now about the impact of windmills on the countryside, but flooding it will cause all heck to break loose.
But it's the main source of electricity in Norway, and once running is pretty cheap. We have a lot of windmills, but that's just to sell for money
mt Snowdon?
There's an ecological impact to any form of energy generation. We need some honesty around scales of impact.
The Snowdon thing is pumped storage, not a hydroelectric dam. When there's plenty of supply they pump it up to the reservoir at the top of the hill, and they release it when there's an instant surge in demand to give the other generating capacity time to spin up. However it actually stores very little energy, it's just there to smooth out the supply, not provide any significant energy storage.
Hydroelectric dams are on rivers where you flood the valley and generate electricity by letting the river flow through a turbine. They are used in lots of places, often as a side-effect of damming for other reasons. Norway use loads of them, but they have a huge number of suitable sites and very few people. The UK has far more demand and really not very many suitable sites. And rivers often aren't all that dependable. A dry summer can see the flow drop quite a bit. In Norway it's not so bad because they have lots of snow melt which is more predictable and as said their demand is a lot lower.
temporary lack of gust isnt really a problem, its just days with little wind.
counting on wind to cover your base load would be pretty foolish (IMO)
And even Hydro can have problems - NZ had a drought in 2008 that seriously hit their generation and Lake Mead (the lake formed by the Hoover Dam) is almost empty due to lack of rain.
Around my way there were huge objections to Carsington Water being built 30 odd years ago - every bugger loves the place now and it's a tourist hot-spot!
When I was doing my civil engineering dissertation I did a desk study for major Scottish catchments that were likely candidates for hydroelectric power generation. Surprisingly nearly everything run of river is harnessed.
What is happening now is a focus on pumped storage. Expansion is to happen at Cruachan and I think Sloy is to be converted to pumped storage. The new Coire Glas scheme is kicking off right now on Loch Lochy, and another pumped storage scheme has planning consent with Loch Ericht being the lower reservoir.
So lots happening in pumped storage, but limited scope for more large scale run of river generation.
Highland Council planning portal has hundreds of docs on Coire Glas that make interesting reading.
I wonder if some sort of hydro power scheme could be implemented within the feed from the Elan Valley to the West Mids
Hydroelectric dams are on rivers where you flood the valley and generate electricity by letting the river flow through a turbine
Not true you don't have to have a large impoundment on a run of river scheme.
@Waderider - Red John is another pumped hydro scheme in development. https://www.redjohnpsh.co.uk/
Looking like time for me to go back to hydro!
There isn't really enough volume for large Hydro schemes in the UK, IMO. I think wave power could be developed more, though.
BUT, we really need to address demand rather than pander to it by constantly increasing supply.
Lots of good local generation schemes have been ignored for years due to can-kicking, blinkered attitudes and nimbyism.
Fact is; energy cannot be stored, created or destroyed - so treat it reponsibly and with respect!
At this rate, though it will be lots more offshore wind and Nuclear.
At sea, it's generally winder than on land, too. But, the costs are MUCH higher than onshore wind.
I'm not convinced by small, distributed nuclear plants, either. this seems like a fairly expensive and dangerous way to waste energy.
Really, it's the demand from transport that's increased in the last 50yrs. Investing in a national charging network + electrified public transport would reduce overall energy demand.
How big a 'pond' do you need to make stored hydro worthwhile? I live in the Pennines, there's lots of hills (which could take many more turbines which I'm fine with, can see 5 big ones from my window as well as the butt ugly power lines that have crossed the valley for years). We also have quite a few abandoned drinking water reservoirs in the same hills, would they be big enough to utilise? I suppose the problem is if they are, there's storage at the top but where do you store the water at the bottom waiting for spare capacity to pump back up.
Tidal and wave far more sensible in the UK than hydro.
Well, Dinorwig is around 500m drop, about 1.8GW capacity and a small lake (80x40x14 metres deep) top and bottom.
https://www.electricmountain.co.uk/Dinorwig-Power-Station
However, it's more a question of requirement, since they are only useful for the FA cup ad break when everyone flicks the kettle on.
I like those projects in Scotland. There are two proposed barrages in Swansea and Cardiff Bay, which could add a few GW, but they have spent years stuck in planning.
Maybe in the future, we will end up with a more distributed grid, with power balancing conducted at a regional or local level?
How does increasing electric transport reduce the requirement for (electric) power?
Also tidal had been tried, doesn't produce much power, is expensive and requires excessive maintenance.
Are we allowed to mentioned the N word? I see 8 more reactors announced today (though not sure if this is typical government double counting already announced reactors).
There’s an ecological impact to any form of energy generation. We need some honesty around scales of impact.
This is worth repeating. In this country it seems whatever the infrastructure project is, someone is implacably opposed to it.
Apparantly, at the moment, onshore windfarms can be stopped if just 1 person opposes them.
I was digressing a bit on the electric charging / public transport network. My thinking is that swopping all petrol/diesel transport for electric will reduce the total ENERGY required, eg it's more efficient to power an electric car via a power station (maybe fossil-fuelled!) than use fuel which has come from a refinery, transported using more fuel etc.
Also tidal had been tried, doesn’t produce much power
Tidal barrages do. AFAIK I don't think we have done a big one in the UK.
I’m not convinced by small, distributed nuclear plants, either. this seems like a fairly expensive and dangerous way to waste energy.
The point about the small ones is that you can build them in a factory with all the machines you want, put them on a lorry and drive them to their location where you just plumb them in. This manufacturing technique should be much cheaper.
Tidal and wave far more sensible in the UK than hydro.
This.
Once we can get the technology sorted, the energy density and volume seems huge. I've just been reading about the Islay energy plan - mahoooosive energy opportunity in the tides between Cambeltown, Islay and Northern Ireland.
So there are a number of potential solutions for storage.
Take today as I type, around 16Gw and 42% of the UK energy is being generated by wind and around 10% by solar. In total 58% is being generated by renewables. Fossil fuels (mainly gas) accounts for around 25%:
https://www.energydashboard.co.uk/live
By the end of this decade renewables in the UK will roughly double. Effectively this will mean that renewables plus nuclear will cover us for probably around 75% of the time. By 2035 they could cover us for more than 95% of the time. When we have more than enough, excess can be stored.
There are number of options for storage, roughly divided into long-term (prolonged stagnant murk) and short term storage (one or two days).
Short-term: home batteries, electric-cars, pumped-storage, compressed air storage
Long term: hydrogen generation*, interconnects, oversupply, biomass
As excess energy increases, storage will become more valuable and they will get rolled out quite quickly. Electric cars will be charging over night when there is more likely to be an excess. The cars will act like big batteries and vehicle-to-grid export tariffs will become more widespread. Home batteries will also help to smooth out the peaks and troughs of intraday demand. Time-of-use energy tarries (like Octopus Agile) will help on the demand side. My guess is these things will work themselves out as the value of storage increases.
The bigger head-scratcher is longer term storage. Interconnects exist between us and Europe and Scandinavia and there is even a proposed interconnect between the UK and Morocco. Effectively these mean renewable generation can be averaged over a much larger area reducing the number of periods of under supply. Solar and wind are fairy complementary in the UK - it is windier in the winter and sunnier in the summer, so increasing the proportion of solar will also help smooth things out. In some ways the simplest solution is to just build more renewables. Onshore wind, offshore wind and solar were already significantly cheaper at current strike prices than fossil fuels and nuclear even before this winter's fuel crisis.
In the short to medium term we will be dipping into North sea gas to make up the numbers but as time progresses, this will be a fraction of what it is today. In the longer term, something like hydrogen storage might fill that diminishing role.
Electricity consumption has decreased over the last 20 years but expect this trend to reverse as more people adopt electric cars and heat pumps.
Finally, on a positive note, a lot of these changes are happening exponentially such as the adoption of battery electric cars and the shift to renewables. Things are changing quickly. It really is an exciting time to be alive it is akin to the industrial revolution.
*Hydrogen generation is quite interesting as it can be be generated at an efficiency of around 80% and then stored in huge caverns (of which there are quite a few apparently) or even pumped back down into previous natural gas fields. It can potentially be mixed with mains gas up to around 20%. As yet largely unproven though.
Fact is; energy cannot be stored, created or destroyed – so treat it reponsibly and with respect!
Energy can't be stored? Reconsider that! And the the need to treat it responsibly when it cannot be destroyed is a non sequitur. I think I get your point though, producing electrical energy for human consumption has an environmental cost.
Really, it’s the demand from transport that’s increased in the last 50yrs. Investing in a national charging network + electrified public transport would reduce overall energy demand.
Where is the reduction in energy demand residential, commercial, industrial or transportation? The major use change in energy consumption facing us is a transport sector switch from fossil fuels to electrical energy, meaning investment is needed in the electrical grid. Renewables don't decrease societies consumption of energy. A move away from an economic model that demands constant growth, abandoning or modifying capitalism, and competent governance could reduce "overall energy demand". Or of course reduced human population.
Also tidal had been tried, doesn’t produce much power, is expensive and requires excessive maintenance.
Tidal can produce lots of power (see Severn case studies) but often requires large up front investment as you say, similar to pumped storage hydro. It has a major benefit of being variable cyclic rather than variable intermittent - you can depend on it.
How big a ‘pond’ do you need to make stored hydro worthwhile?
The basic formula is pretty simple mass x height x gravity = energy. The answer to your question is 15 minutes away, look at all the existing or consented schemes and find the upper reservoir volume and the height of that reservoir above the lower. Market rates for electrical energy makes a big difference for the viability of grid storage. There needs to be a £ difference in the cost of a unit of electricity at times of surplus versus times of high demand. I think some of the current pumped storage developers have been looking to the government to change the way the market operates to give them confidence to invest.
Maybe in the future, we will end up with a more distributed grid, with power balancing conducted at a regional or local level?
The grid is already operating at an international level. Long distance direct current distribution helps greatly with this as energy losses are much less that with alternating current. Mind you only ~7% of our electricity is being imported from the continent as I type.
One of the other storage technologies that is coming is flow batteries. Big, factory sized, tanks of electrolytes that are pumped through electrodes to work as a battery. They can be built anywhere and will likely be a cheaper up front investment than pumped hydro or lithium batteries.
Hydrogen generation is quite interesting as it can be be generated at an efficiency of around 80% and then stored
So could we see gasometers in towns and citied again full of H2 generated on site?
Maybe we will see them full of flow battery reagents?
Energy can't be stored. that's potential energy. Even a battery loses power over time.
I should have said, its usage or capture deserves respect eg be cautious with nuclear reactors (which I think are better suited to large-scale generation).
TBH, I have no solution for reducing usage, except that every UK adult should spend 2 wks in Ethiopia as a learning experience!
So could we see gasometers in towns and citied again full of H2 generated on site?
Maybe we will see them full of flow battery reagents?
Again, I would put those in the category of short-term storage. For long term storage...
"The potential storage volume from Britain’s salt fields ranges from >1TWh up to 30TWh and for disused oil and gas fields, the potential storage volume for individual sites ranges from 1TWh up to 330TWh"
from
To be honest. Thinks are happening so quickly that unless the technology is established now and close to commercial production now, it will be kicked in to the never never. By the time the 8 nuclear reactors ever get built (which I severely doubt they will), they will likely be largely redundant.
At least for the short to medium-term, lithium (and maybe sodium) batteries, and pumped storage are likely to be the go-tos for storage. At least until the natural gas runs out.
Energy can’t be stored. that’s potential energy.
Long term storage is a big problem. There is not enough sites to do it by pump storage. To give an example there can be week long lulls with very little wind. Current UK pump storage would supply the UK grid for around 1 hour. UK demand is around 30Gw. Units of storage are GWh. Enough to sipply 1GW power for 1 hour.
"Britain has four pumped storage facilities, which can store 30 GWh be-
tween them (table 26.4, figure 26.6). They are typically used to store excess
electricity at night, then return it during the day, especially at moments of
peak demand "
https://www.withouthotair.com/c26/page_191.shtml
A video on the difficulties of pumped storage schemes...
Yea, sorry misquoted that, what a muppet.
Energy can’t be stored. that’s potential energy.
Potential energy is a form of energy. It gets converted into kinetic or whatever else you do with it.
Yes, see above, I got confused!
Anyhow - that Hydrogen storage in old gas deposits looks good - certainly worth the investment to aid more reliance on 'unpredictable' renewables.
Fact is; energy cannot be stored, created or destroyed
all energy is stored in one form or another. Everything with mass has energy.
ake today as I type, around 16Gw and 42% of the UK energy is being generated by wind and around 10% by solar. In total 58% is being generated by renewables. Fossil fuels (mainly gas) accounts for around 25%:
just think how that number is going to change for rUK when Scotland gets its independence. 98% of Scotland's electrical energy is renewable/
just think how that number is going to change for rUK when Scotland gets its independence. 98% of Scotland’s electrical energy is renewable/
The wind farms are owned by energy firms, multi-nationals, and pension farms. If Scotland was to become independent it would not change much, essentially you would have a monopsony where there are multiple farms trying to sell to the same buyer [the remnants of the UK]
But, I don't think we should be too nationalistic or cynical. The nice thing about renewables is that they are so well distributed - there is enough to go around. The age of oil is almost over, we just need to get through the death throws.
as I type, around 16Gw and 42% of the UK energy is being generated by wind
Unfortunately only last month we had a week where wind produced next to nothing. The reality is that wind on it's own is not the answer. In fact wind builds in a reliance on gas because without cost effective long term storage backup from gas power in the only game in town. If you look at gridwatch.uk gas and wind mirror each other. Wind high gas low and vice versa.
End of March.
And being pedantic wind is not producing 43% of UK energy. It is 42% of UK electricity.
"In 2020 the UK obtained 21.5% of its primary energy from low carbon sources, with 37% of
this from bioenergy, 31% from nuclear, and 18% from wind."
I make that about 4 or 5% of UK energy from wind in 2020.
The reality is that wind on it’s own is not the answer
Yeah we know, this entire thread is about that, and how to move away from gas for base load.
Also I think you have mis read that document IRC, it's talking about energy consumption not electricity generation, so it includes transport fuel, oil heating etc. From wiki wind generation in 2020 was about 25%
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_the_United_Kingdom
Unfortunately only last month we had a week where wind produced next to nothing. The reality is that wind on it’s own is not the answer.
I am not sure anyone is saying that wind is the only answer. Certainly not me. We need a mix of renewables including solar and bio-energy.
For example, the week that you mention last month co-incided with very high solar production (record for the time of year). So having more solar would help hedge against such events.
Then there is the increase in interconnects which could tap-in to renewables elsewhere.
Whilst it would be good to have a long term storage option. I think the case for it is sometimes overstated and in any case there are no current viable option other than perhaps hydrogen.
I listened to a talk by Ian Marchant (ex head of SSE). One of the things he said would be the next challenge is storage. It's going to require a huge rethink. There is a figure for how much energy is currently stored in petrol tanks of private cars. It exceeds the rest of the uk energy storage capacity combined!
Lots of options are being looked at. Green hydrogen is an area of interest. Using renewables to produce it when production is high and then storing it. It fits nicely into current areas of technology but has limitations.
I was involved in the offshore renewables catapult briefly and a few industry groups. Someone higher up said that tidal was inefficient and small scale. It is, it was, as is wave. But so was wind. It's just that the money has been invested in wind. Look at where we were 10 years ago and compare to the Turbines going up at Dogger Bank and the difference is phenomenal in terms of scale and efficiency. There are some interesting projects going on in other renewable areas. Two I remember were and Orbital Marine Power. Mostly based in Wales and Ireland as there are huge tidal ranges in that area.
You've also got to remember that the UK is meteorologically diverse. Between Moray in the North and London Array in the south one could be calm and the other generating. This situation is getting better with farms all down the east coast. There are also plans for farms in the Celtic Sea.
There isn't one answer, you can pick holes in any one solution or idea. It isn't about everything being perfect but is about putting the pieces together to create a better system than the one we have now. It's an exciting industry to be involved in. Lots of ambition, lots of big engineering challenges, lots of opportunities.
By the time the 8 nuclear reactors ever get built (which I severely doubt they will)
Its not '8 nuclear reactors' its 'up to 8 nuclear reactors' - 'up to' can of course mean 'non'.
This is fascinating.
Very sincerely, thanks for the replies👍
This situation is getting better with farms all down the east coast. There are also plans for farms in the Celtic Sea.
And also around Iceland where a 10GW farm has been proposed.
What surprises me is the low transmission loss for high voltage DC which is reported to be around 3% per 1000km. This makes schemes like Iceland and Morocco very much viable options.
One of the interesting conumndrums with hydrogen storage is it's leak rate. Probably less of an issue in big storage chambers but for typical on storage it has a leak rate of about 1% a day! The molecules are tiny so they gradually just diffuse through the steel cylinders. Some of the ways of working with it are significantly different to natural gas so we've all got plenty of learning to do.
Long term we may end up with other options. There's a lot of work going into synthesising hydrocarbons out of atmospheric CO2. This uses energy clearly, but if you were to use renewable energy you could potentially use this as energy storage.
This thread so far has focused on energy production.
Yet it is so important to reduce consumption. The benefits of reduced bills for consumers, and less need to generate, distribute and store energy, are in tandem.
IMO, there needs to be a huge, and I mean huge, national effort to reduce heating (space and water) and cooling loads. No house should be left without improvements, let alone our offices, schools and more.
The reality is that wind on it’s own is not the answer.
Absolutely no one is saying it is. The next ten years will be all about storage.
Absolutely no one is saying it is. The next ten years will be all about storage.
And reduction or efficiency in use.
IMO, there needs to be a huge, and I mean huge, national effort to reduce heating (space and water) and cooling loads. No house should be left without improvements, let alone our offices, schools and more.
You are completely right. My gut feeling is that it is going to take more stick than carrot. Currently gas is around 25% of the cost per kWh of electricity. If it was 100% then people would begin to act much faster in terms of insulation and more efficient electric heating i.e. heat pumps. I think it is quite conceivable that the gap between electricity and gas narrows going in the future.
Just a small note on heat pumps. Air-to-water heat pumps are typically touted in the press as a gas boiler alternative. Install cost is around £10k+ efficiency around 300%
For many air-to-air heat pumps i.e. air conditioning units are much more suitable. A A+++ 4kw unit can be installed for around £1500. Efficincy is around 400% (higher because you are heating air to 20 odd degrees rather than water to 40 odd degrees).
Two such units could be sufficient for a well insulated house. You wouldn't need to remove the boiler so you can transition away from gas.
Finally, the good news in the budget that everyone seems to have missed. They are now eligible for VAT free status - previously it was just air to water systems.
“In 2020 the UK obtained 21.5% of its primary energy from low carbon sources, with 37% of
this from bioenergy, 31% from nuclear, and 18% from wind.”
This is a good point as those figures include heating and fuel in addition to electricity.
However, remember that ICE engines are ludicrously inefficient - only something like 20% of the energy goes into traction. Therefore the energy use will be 5x higher than electric cars. Likewise, the energy use for gas heating is 4x higher than a heat pump (see my post above).
So going forward total electricity consumption will be higher but total energy use is likely to be much lower as we transition to electric cars and heat pumps.
For many air-to-air heat pumps i.e. air conditioning units are much more suitable. A A+++ 4kw unit can be installed for around £1500.
Interesting - but wouldn't we need air ducts all around our house for that?
ICE engines are ludicrously inefficient – only something like 20% of the energy goes into traction
It's about 40% at best, now. But if you want to get technical, you also have to factor in that petrol and diesel are by products of crude oil refinement, so part of the cost of extraction and refining is met by the sale of other things. It's a fairly complex business. Of course the opposite is also true and if we weren't paying for petrol the price of refining other chemicals and fuels would go up....
Now I'm interested in air-to-air heat pumps. If anyone knows how domestic installations work and what can be done, DM me.
I'm wondering if the ducting can be used to circulate air within a house - the upstairs in ours is really hot in the summer but the downstairs stays cool. I don't need aircon in the summer, all I want is to be able to circulate the cooler air from downstairs to up. Likewise, in cooler but sunny weather the upstairs is fairly warm when the downstairs is still cold.
Now I’m interested in air-to-air heat pumps. If anyone knows how domestic installations work and what can be done, DM me.
Here is link to my recent experience:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6341294/help-sizing-an-air-to-air-heat-pump/p1
Our house is EPC rated C demi-detached - loft insulation, double glazing cavity wall installation. I reckon if we put a send unit in the lounge that would be sufficient to replace the gas heating for the house. You can either have a separate complete system or you could have a single outdoor unit that feeds multiple indoor units. It depends on bit on the external pipe runs as to which is the cheapest and most aesthetic. For us, it will be simplest to add a second unit with a back-to-back install to limit the pipe run.
Will electric cars become a mainstream method of local energy storage?
Where an electric car is plugged in and expected usage is a short 5 mile trip on weekdays, and full range use at the weekend, will we see the spare battery capacity being used to store and release power over the week with the car ensuring it tops up for its expected weekend trips?
The downside of course is additional wear and tear on the battery but you'd like to think there would be a small financial incentive for import and export through your smart meter, although ideally the car would charge during low demand/high supply and then release power for your own household when demand rises/supply falls.
Will electric cars become a mainstream method of local energy storage?
Very much so. It is known as vehicle-to-grid. There have been a number of trials in the UK mainly with Nissan Leaf's which support it. The life of batteries is determined by a number of factors:
- Physical age
- Number of cycles
- Battery management (depth of discharge, preventing over charging, temperature control etc.)
It is becoming apparent that the third factor is likely to be at least as important as the other two. So the additional wear and tear is likely to be of only minor significance to its life.