My wife quite fancies having some work done to our house, namely removing the stud wall betwixt the kitchen and dining room to make it more open plan then taking the ~2m wide window in the dining room and making it into a patio door. (then new kitchen, flooring and redecoration).
Couple of questions before I attack the house with a lump hammer and angle grinder...
Firstly I presume I need a structural engineer to confirm, in writing it's a non load bearing wall?
Secondly does the internal work need signed off by building control?
Thirdly, does the conversion from window to door need planning permission?
and finally, what sort of ball park cost would we be looking at to have a building firm do the work and make good - excluding new kitchen, flooring etc...?
Thanks
Firstly - no, you can tell from the direction of the floor joist above it, you don't need an engineer to confirm it (clearly you could, but you don't need to)
Secondly - I don't think so
Thirdly - No, assuming you're not in any kind of conservation area
FWIW - about seven years ago we knocked our kitchen through into the utility room, which was a load bearing wall and added a new set of french doors. We had an engineer do the calcs for the wall we removed and the lintel above the new door, but didn't get building control or planning signoff for any of it. House sold last year with no problems, buyers just wanted to know what the engineer had said and confirm we'd gone with his recommendations.
Couple of questions before I attack the house with a lump hammer and angle grinder…
Noooo! Take your time - don't go waving lump hammers around. Carefully cut away the plasterboard to get to the stud wall then saw through / completely remove the stud wall piece by piece so you don't just go making a huge dusty mess. Are there any electrics on the walls that need moving?
Take off the plaster board, and then you'll see what's actually 'structural'.
Go from there - just remember that wood can be 'structural'...
Stud walls can be fire protection even if not structural. Probably OK unless you have a more than two storeys or a staircase in the room.
Some sort of big hammer i would think 😀
Stud walls can be fire protection even if not structural. Probably OK unless you have a more than two storeys or a staircase in the room.
Good thought - downstairs would be hallway with stairs up to bedrooms and a doorway into the to be open plan lounge, dining room and kitchen. Existing doorway from kitchen to hall will be closed off to accommodate more cupboards. Door from open plan space to hallway will be the same door as the existing kitchen to hallway. So I presume this negates any increase in fire risk...
Noooo! Take your time – don’t go waving lump hammers around. Carefully cut away the plasterboard to get to the stud wall then saw through / completely remove the stud wall piece by piece so you don’t just go making a huge dusty mess. Are there any electrics on the walls that need moving?
Good point - couple of light switches will need moved, plus a socket for the fridge...
Secondly does the internal work need signed off by building control?
Yes it does, although I'm not sure how it works when removing a partition?
A few years back, I knocked a separate toilet into the main bathroom when installing a new bathroom.
Never suspected that adding or removing stud walls required building control. When I came to sell I had to take out an indemnity policy for the work.
As above wood can be structural, it depends on what the construction of the rest of your house is.
- If you generally have brick and block walls and the one you want to remove is timber and the floor joists don't sit on it your probably ok.
- If you have brick and block walls and the one you want to remove is block and the floor joists don't sit on it your probably ok but there is a chance that wall is used for the overall stability of the house and you'll need to leave a pier of masonry.
- If you have a timber framed house get an engineer in, anything could be structural including the bit of wall under the window and a wall that runs parallel to the floor joists.
(I sometimes design timber frame houses and do worry about people knocking out structural walls as they look the same as the none structural ones)
Take off the plaster board, and then you’ll see what’s actually ‘structural’.
This. Don't assume anything about how your house is constructed until you can see it with your eyes. I got a proper structural engineer in when I did my extension and he did an inspection, made some strategic holes in ceilings to try to establish what was going on structurally and drew up his plans. But when the builders came in and stared to expose the structure we found it was different to what was assumed from the initial survey and we had to put in additional structure because the upper floor structure was not consistent across its's whole area as it should have been. No reason why it shouldn't have been as expected, just one of those things.
Due to the incompetence of the building trade there very well might be some load bearing on the stud wall by shoddy workmanship. My brother found this when he was doing some work finding that one of the upstairs rooms joists were not properly supported at one corner and some load was going through internal walls. Just shoddy workmanship and you never know if that applies to your home too.
If you are going to do it yourself then take it slowly and very carefully and inspect at every stage to see if you can spot for any signs of things not being quite as they should.
As above wood can be structural, it depends on what the construction of the rest of your house is.
– If you generally have brick and block walls and the one you want to remove is timber and the floor joists don’t sit on it your probably ok.
– If you have brick and block walls and the one you want to remove is block and the floor joists don’t sit on it your probably ok but there is a chance that wall is used for the overall stability of the house and you’ll need to leave a pier of masonry.
– If you have a timber framed house get an engineer in, anything could be structural including the bit of wall under the window and a wall that runs parallel to the floor joists.(I sometimes design timber frame houses and do worry about people knocking out structural walls as they look the same as the none structural ones)
It's a 1970's Taylor wimpy house - house is rectangular with a solid traverse block wall half way down it's length. This is the supporting wall. The wall I'm looking to remove is perpendicular from this wall to the back wall. I've seen on right move, quite a few houses in the area have had this work done so I'm 90% certain it'll not bring the house down.
Open plan lounge kitchen and dining room? Are you sure?
A lot of people are moving away from that sort of setup and closing things off a bit more as the open plan idea isn’t as great as you think it might be. Noise, smells, heating etc can all be problematic.
I would probably do lounge/dining or dining/kitchen together but not all three.
Open plan lounge kitchen and dining room? Are you sure?
A lot of people are moving away from that sort of setup and closing things off a bit more as the open plan idea isn’t as great as you think it might be. Noise, smells, heating etc can all be problematic.
I would probably do lounge/dining or dining/kitchen together but not all three.
Currently we have open plan lounge / dining. I think this is fine as kitchen smells and noises are contained in the kitchen whilst the entertaining space is open. But I have been told I'm wrong and that open is better...
We're getting what looks like a stud wall between the bathroom and en-suite knocked down to move it a meter to the side (tiny bathroom and huge en-suite, to two middle sized rooms). Three people said yeah they'll just knock it down, one flagged that it might in fact be a supporting wall so have included in the costs ensuring that the floor above doesn't collapse, and if it's just stud we get a discount.
We went with them. We'll find out in a month or so...
….and if you are thinking of selling in the future why wouldn’t you get building regs sign off? It’s pretty cheap and only a tiny fraction of what the whole job is going to cost. Was £200 for me on a £8k job (doing all myself so probably £25k for anyone else) so hardly expensive and worth it if only for less hassle at the selling stage. I certainly woukdnt be happy buying a house where it hadnt been done where it should have and know that indemnity policies aren’t worth the paper they are printed on.
But I have been told I’m wrong and that open is better…
By whom?
But I have been told I’m wrong and that open is better…
Anybody want to join my sweepstake on how many months until scruff is back with a thread entitled,
"Installing a non-load bearing partition wall, what's involved?" 🤣
More like “how to construct a really big patio”.
But I have been told I’m wrong and that open is better…
It depends on the house and the family I guess. We have all three open and I would not go back. My wife does most of the cooking and she does not want to be isolated from the family whilst doing so. I generally clean up and I don't want to be isolated from the family whilst doing so. We don't eat meat so that probably helps from a smell and moisture point of view. The space is much brighter and usable.
A friend of mine convinced his parents to buy a flat in our town. There was a thin stud wall separating kitchen and dining area. Not really a wall, more of a partition. They got a builder round to quote for removing it. He turned up, asked them if they were sure they wanted it out, then grabbed one side if it and pulled it down in one movement right in front of them. He just pulled it down with his hands then charged them a small amount for clearing up and a little bits of making good.
why wouldn’t you get building regs sign off
If removing the wall does not affect anything that is covered by the regs, I'm not sure there would be anything to sign (ie, an equivalent of the Certificate of Lawfulness in Planning). I suppose you could write to Building Control with the details and ask if there's a requirement; a letter to say there isn't might be a quick way to close out any questions when selling.
Check here:
https://www.planningportal.co.uk/info/200130/common_projects/33/internal_walls/2
For clarity, as Building Regs and procedures differ, which part of the UK are you in?
It depends on the house and the family I guess. We have all three open and I would not go back. My wife does most of the cooking and she does not want to be isolated from the family whilst doing so. I generally clean up and I don’t want to be isolated from the family whilst doing so. We don’t eat meat so that probably helps from a smell and moisture point of view. The space is much brighter and usable.
I'm with you on that for similar reasons and we do eat meat, its just about decent ventilation.
Firstly I presume I need a structural engineer to confirm, in writing it’s a non load bearing wall?
Secondly does the internal work need signed off by building control?
Thirdly, does the conversion from window to door need planning permission?
For all of these I'd actually suggest talking to your local building control. Mine were very helpful, confirmed I *did* need a building warrant when various people said I wouldn't. Even if you don't need planning for window-door, I'll be surprised if you don't need a warrant for that - they were quite particular about the the outside area of patio doors changing to french doors for me. And if you are filing a warrant application might as well include all of it so when you come to sell there is a paperwork trail for everything.
