[Closed] Remembrance: For some everything ended on 11/11/1918

^^ French President Emmanuel Macron and German Chancellor Angela Merkel stand together in the Clairiere of Rethondes

Despite its problems, Europe has never been safer in my lifetime, and with the attitude that the leaders of France and Germany display I think it's likely to remain this way despite the nationalistic arrogance of a small minority of elderly, angry and ignorant Brits.

Is there anything that can't be turned in to a brexit whinge?

FFS.

Just gave a quiet moments thanks to those who did what they did.

I have never lived through the horror of a war. Never been so scared that I was about to die - huddled in a trench - that I defecated myself. Never held an injured mate who I knew was never going to see his loved ones again.  Never had to survive for years on rations. . . .

Today life is not perfect, and in many ways things could certainly be better . . . but we're certainly not in a world war.

For everyones sake, I hope that never changes.

Is there anything that can’t be turned in to a brexit whinge?

Well said CFH. My sentiments entirely.

To be fair, no-one mentioned Brexit until Flashy butted in.

Flaperon wrote about the peace which we experience today, and the amity between nations.

I will quietly remember both my grandfathers who fought and survived WW1, my father & uncles in WW2 (some of whom didn't survive), and my cousin's son who died from wounds in Helmand.

It's also worth remembering that 11th Nov 1918 was also the start of something, the independent state of Poland. That's something to celebrate for many millions.

^^ French President Emmanuel Macron and German Chancellor Angela Merkel stand together in the Clairiere of Rethondes

Despite its problems, Europe has never been safer in my lifetime

+1 This. Whatever the politics, we are all part of Europe and remember the sacrifices on all sides to achieve lasting peace.

No further comment from me.

Died 11th November 1918

Those deaths between the early morning agreement to sign the armistice and 11am always seem particularly tragic. The war was effectively over but still more lives were lost.

My Grandad survived Gallipoli. He has shot by a sniper, the force of which knocked him into a ditch. A mortar landed where he had been standing and killed his mates.

Just about sums it up for me....

It was a great war the Great War
The greatest war there's ever been
It was a war to end all wars
It didn't but that's how it seemed
It was a great war the Great War
With the bodies and the blood
The shell holes and the hell holes
The trenches and the mud
It was a great war the Great War
The last war where no-one dared
To question the orders
No-one knew or no-one cared

And you stand there with your poppies
As a tribute to the ones
Who gave their lives for nothing
For the fathers and the sons
Then next day you go out
And buy your kids toy guns
Well go on and why not
You've got to teach them while they're young

It was a great war the Great War
The greatest war we've ever seen
We killed their side we killed our side
We killed anybody in between
It was a great war the Great War
Better still than Waterloo
Better yet than Agincourt
Better still than World War Two
It was a great war the Great War
The greatest chance we ever got
To die for our country
Or if not then to be shot

And you stand there in your silence
Just like we used to do
Like you were waiting for their whistle
For their orders to come through
Oh can't you see you're still doing
Just what they tell you to
Remember what they did to us
They could do to you

In a great war like the Great War
The greatest war we've ever known
We took simple fields made them hell on earth
Turned a million men to stone
But it was a great war the Great War
It was not our duty to survive
We weren't idiots we were patriots
Come on boys keep the myth alive
It was a great war the Great War
But you lead us up the garden path
And still you lead us every year
Up to the Cenotaph

And you stand there politicians
Wiping tears from your eyes
With the hands that shake the hands
Of the dictators you supply
Well I cannot see the honour
Nor the glory nor the pride
And I will not wear your poppy
And I will not stand silent by

http://jeays.com/thegreatwar.php?fbclid=IwAR160UsEe1WnY4jMXCxzrqPTHeL7f-zyKm-x0JHP_GGjDFzanH6ni6ciaoU

To be fair, no-one mentioned Brexit until Flashy butted in.

To be also fair...

despite the nationalistic arrogance of a small minority of elderly, angry and ignorant Brits.

The obvious is obvious.

No more from me either.

MIke Harding, the singer & poet wrote:

That First Step

Just picture it, the rising sun
Kisses the good, sweet earth and tips
Your bayonet. Your lips
Still burning from the double tot of rum
Hold a shaky woodbine, you look down the line –
White faces stare out, unseeing, across the wire;
The whistle blows to start the match,
You curse the liars and generals not the Hun
And clutch the pygmy’s straw that is your gun.

But that first step – just how the ****
Did they all do it? Off the duck
Boards; shaking legs, stumble up the steps,
A bumbled scramble over the parapets.
And then the “walk don’t run”
Into the chattering, hammering, yammering,
Skull-cleaving, wailing wall of gas and shells and lead;
They marched into the Kingdom of the Dead.

Lads from the shires and towns
Lads from the factories and downs
Lads from the Dales and the harbours;
Dancers and sons and lovers,
Husbands and fathers and brothers,
Half a million palls and mates,
Half a million souls in khaki, “For a lark”
Went strolling into Hell’s Amusement Park.
And the simple brutal scythe then garnered them
As neat and accurate as any lathe or loom
Or threshing machine – rattling out
The metal howls of battle, industrial style.

And all for what? For lies
As all the wars are for;
For lies and money
And the secret doctrines of the rich.

And the names in brass and stone
Will tell you nothing, only say
That they marched away,
And that they didn’t come home.

And though there was for them great change
That day as they were turned to meat,
And telegrams would come down quiet country lanes
And busy, smoky, narrow city streets –
The tills still rang, the birds sang sweet,
Somewhere a ploughman turned his team
With singing brass and heavy, clay-shod feet
And didn’t hear his brother’s scream.

Still city men were dining at the Ritz
And still the trading figures clicked
In all the great exchanges of the world –
That morning as the battle and the day unfurled.

But that first step – just how the ****
Did they and all their pals walk out into the shining day,
Knowing agony and endless night was just one chuck
Of the dice, one card, one kiss of Lady Luck away?

What makes it even more sad is that in the Armistice were sown the seeds for everything that came afterwards - and it took another world war, plus a cold war, for countries to finally learn the biggest lessons.

Queen Victoria’s grandchildren had a family spat. Result: twenty million dead.

Still, god save the queen. Or not. Whatever...

Particularly sad.  The casualties carried on after the Armistice, since you can't demobilise millions of traumatised men and millions of tons of high explosive without a few accidents.  The cost in ruined lives among those who survived boggles the mind too.

I think it’s significant that the President Of Germany and his wife were at the service of Remembrance at Westminster Cathedral along with the Queen and the Prime Minister this evening. Relations seemed very cordial.

All for a bunch of blood-related aristocrats who didn’t give a crap about them before the war, and afterwards the only ones left standing (the British), not giving a crap about the canon fodder after the war was over.

Except when they were needed to defend ones property when the next one kicked off, which only did because the victors of the first one decided to keep Grrmany on it’s knees afterwards and what a great idea THAT was...

Queen Victoria’s grandchildren had a family spat. Result: twenty million dead.

Wind it in Woppit, war had been brewing for years. Some conflict was inevitable. Have a read.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_World_War_I

when the next one kicked off, which only did because the victors of the first one decided to keep Grrmany on it’s knees afterwards

Possibly not an accurate precis of the causes of WW2

However, today is not the day to argue about it

This however is a great book on the causes of WW1

Queen Victoria’s grandchildren had a family spat.

I'm not convinced that any two historians agree on the causes of WW1, but I'm pretty certain they *do* all agree it wasn't a spat between royal cousins:

https://www.historyextra.com/period/first-world-war/what-caused-the-first-world-war/

This is probably one of those days that some people need to go and have a really good look in the mirror.

More and more I see that we are forgetting the lessons learnt in the past.

the victors of the first one decided to keep Grrmany on it’s knees afterwards

I don't think they had much choice. Even if they'd realised the dangers of a harsh settlement with Germany (and not all of them did) Britain/France/USA would never have been able to sell a soft settlement to their respective peoples after 4 years of apocalyptic carnage. Politicians don't have that much freedom to manoeuvre.

Also, I think the assumption that Versailles made a second war with Germany inevitable is false.

I have just been sent this. My local regiment, Queens Own Cameron Highlanders, 1st Battalion?, in 1914 before heading over. These would be the professional soldiers.

The second part is a representation of the numbers of those men who came back.

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I think overall 88pc of Combatants survived. Which isn't great, but better then I imagined.

This is probably one of those days that some people need to go and have a really good look in the mirror.

You see, much as I agree days like today shouldn't be a time for making political points, if we don't do that then how can we learn the lessons? You can't remember and learn the lessons of the horrors of war without considering the causes and drivers of them, and if we can't do that at times when everyone's attention is focused on the subject, when else can we?

We don't learn the lessons because we don't openly talk about it. We don't talk about it because it's somehow seen as insulting the memory of those who died. I guess it's difficult for the families and friends of those who die in war to accept they did so for very little, and it's understandable that they focus on the pride, sacrifice and patriotic element, rather than admitting it was pointless and meant very little.

I agree that we do need to talk about it, to reduce the chances f it happenig again.

But how about we do that on the other 364 days of the year?

outofbreath

I think overall 88pc of Combatants survived. Which isn’t great, but better then I imagined.

A lot depended on which branch of the service you were in.

Not many of the front line soldiers of the highly professional British Army of 1914 were left by the time they introduced conscription.

For example, here's an account of the Cameron Highlanders (as above) at Loos

"On 25th September 1915 during operations on Hill 70 at the Battle of Loos, Douglas-Hamilton, when the battalions on his right and left had retired, rallied his own battalion again and again and led his men forward four times. The last time he led all that remained, about 50 men*, in a most gallant manner, and was killed at their head. It was due to his bravery, and splendid leadership that the line at this point was able to check the enemy's advance." His Victoria Cross is displayed at the Highlanders' Museum in Fort George.

*That's out of a whole battalion, ie the amount of men in the top pic.

A lot depended on which branch of the service you were in.

In addition due to the nature of the warfare a lot of the death was concentrated in small areas and hence units.

With the UK system of country regiments and, even worse, the pals battalions it meant certain geographical areas suffered extremely badly.

But how about we do that on the other 364 days of the year?

Well maybe if we also had a 'day of repentance' where those who start wars and send soldiers to their deaths stand in front of the nation and beg forgiveness for their actions, then we could keep today purely for remembrance? We might also have fewer wars.

Worth a read

https://prruk.org/ten-lies-were-told-to-justify-the-slaughter-of-20-million-in-the-first-world-war/

despite the nationalistic arrogance of a small minority of elderly, angry and ignorant Brits

Was it not the majority, exercising their right to vote and think freely? Rights that were earned by the people we remember today, the most important of which being the elderly people that fought for that freedom.

Do try To refrain from turning rememberence day into a remoaners crusade, it just makes you sound “angry” and “ignorant”.

Who went to a remembrance service today? Sadly I didn't as I was working but Mrs C did. Came back in two minds. We live near a market town and the service was in the market square. Full to the brim and spilling out into the streets that run up to it with people of multi generations and multi ethnicity (for our predominately white middle class town). That was all positive. What she found harder was the almost total 'ambushing' of religion, specifically christian religious message. To be even more specific CofE. One of the well known war poets comes from round here with a hill named after him. His poetry didn't get a look in. 4 hymns, 4 prayers and a bit of vicar speak. Vicar speak was not just a vicar speaking to a crowd but in full god bingo mode. I'd expect that if I went to a church remembrance service but a town one in a public space I'd hope would be a bit more secular. She walked away from it thinking was it really meant for her.

She walked away from it thinking was it really meant for her.

No it was meant for those who died.

Whether you like it or not, the Church of England is the established church, but actually there is an agreed service between various denominations within the UK, but it has a religious basis.  The TV services they mix it up a bit more, but fundamentally our Remembrance Services are religious.

I went to 8 o'clock communion and then did hockey training where my girls observed the two minutes silence in exemplary fashion.

Was it not the majority, exercising their right to vote and think freely? Rights that were earned by the people we remember today, the most important of which being the elderly people that fought for that freedom.

Indeed whilst everyone focuses on women getting the vote for the first time, plenty of men did too because it would have be unconscionable to deny them after so much sacrifice.

No it was meant for those who died.

I would argue that is not the case. It is meant for the the general public alive and free today to have a 'vehicle' to remember the dead that gave us this freedom. That vehicle for the bulk of the current UK population should not be completely religious in tone because the bulk of us are not religious.

Was it not the majority, exercising their right to vote and think freely? Rights that were earned by the people we remember today, the most important of which being the elderly people that fought for that freedom.

In order to have been of fighting or working age during the second world war (ie aged 18 in 1945) you would have to have been born before 1927.  This would have made you 89 years old at the time of the referendum.

The vast vast majority of people who contributed to the war effort were not around to vote in the referendum.  It's about time the baby-boomers stopped taking credit for their parents actions.

It's called a minute's silence for a reason people.

Peace out.

BruceWee

...It’s about time the baby-boomers stopped taking credit for their parents actions.

I don't know where you got that idea from, but as one, I'll bite.

We are a generation whose grandfathers fought in WW1, fathers fought in WW2 and Korea, and so had direct contact with people who were at the sharp end. All of us had friends whose father had been killed, and a long list of dead granduncles and uncles (not to mention civilian casualties). Generally they did not talk directly about it, but you can't grow up in a household like that and not overhear when they were talking about it amongst themselves, or in their cups.

Thus we were very much aware of the consequences of another war and grew up with the very real threat of imminent nuclear war - a joy being revisited upon us these days, only this time with macho politicians who do not have the restraint of firsthand knowledge of being in the charnel house of war.

There was no "taking credit", rather an extreme distaste for war and the huge peace movements in the 1960s.

Whether you like it or not, the Church of England is the established church, but actually there is an agreed service between various denominations within the UK, but it has a religious basis.  The TV services they mix it up a bit more, but fundamentally our Remembrance Services are religious.

Yes, however there was a vast amount of secular remembrance going on yesterday, including beacon lighting and dawn bagpipe playing. Plus the silhouette soldiers all over the place. I think the reality is that not many of us can be bothered to organize remembrance ritual. The CofE *can* be bothered so that's what tends to happen.

Nothing to stop people organizing more secular remembrance events if they feel there aren't enough.

Who went to a remembrance service today?

I was lead shouter and sword-waver for the remembrance parade in Shrewsbury; nerve-wracking but it went alright! I’ve got some pretty mixed feelings about the fetishising of it all, and people training in the gym on Strictly wearing poppies, but I still think the ceremony is a solemn , moving and valuable thing.

I don’t know where you got that idea from, but as one, I’ll bite.

I hear baby-boomers talking about their 'sacrifices' and it really pisses me off when they use it like it entitles them to tell the younger generations we should feel lucky they are still around to make our decisions for us (ie Brexit, which was the comment I was referring to above).

You benefited massively from systems your parents built in the post-war years.  It wasn't your generation who built the welfare state, but it was yours who turned it into a bad word.

I've literally never heard a baby boomer talk about sacrifices and I think this attempt to set up a new boomer vs younger generation culture war is just internet bollocks.

icyclo - if you look back at the way the UK has behaved since 1945, I don't see a lot of restraint born of war. The Aden Emergency, Malayan Energency, Mau Mau, Korea or the dozens of US/UK proxy wars that killed millions in poor countries...The Cold War was a hot war.

My big problem with remembrance is that people use it for patriotic, nationalistic or political 'points'.

World wars are a total disgrace. Remember the fallen, feel sad but also feel angry and ashamed that we, as humans, nations and a species, ever let go that far.

I went to the local remembrance service yesterday (as I do most years), it was hugely well attended and very poignant/moving.

There were 2 elements that didn't sit quite right for me (it's not all about me, I understand that); as Covert said, it seemed to be a "very" Christian event for a public service.  One of the readings even appeared to suggest we should be attempting to convert non-Christians.

However, it was the reading of the following poem (it may be well known but have passed me by until now) which mostly didn't sit quite right with me, but I can't quite put my finger on why;

It is the Soldier, not the minister
Who has given us freedom of religion.

It is the Soldier, not the reporter
Who has given us freedom of the press.

It is the Soldier, not the poet
Who has given us freedom of speech.

It is the Soldier, not the campus organizer
Who has given us freedom to protest.

It is the Soldier, not the lawyer
Who has given us the right to a fair trial.

It is the Soldier, not the politician
Who has given us the right to vote.

It is the Soldier who salutes the flag,
Who serves beneath the flag,
And whose coffin is draped by the flag,
Who allows the protester to burn the flag.

I think it might be due to the fact that I've always been told remembrance isn't about glorifying war or "heroes", rather it is to pay tribute to those who have made the ultimate sacrifice enabling us to live the lives we currently have.  The poem appears to almost deify soldiers, to the point that that it is them and them alone that have given us this world.

The final section in particular sits uncomfortably with me - possibly because I'm more likely to be the peace protestor than the soldier - but I think it's the word "allows" which makes it feel more like it belongs in a military dictatorship.

That poem is a disgrace. It is a complete fabrication. The UK has literally never fought a war to protect its citizens' own freedoms. Even in WW2, the UK could have cut a deal to protect itself. In most cases, the British military has been on the wrong side of the freedom/oppression battle.

Even in WW2, the UK could have cut a deal to protect itself.

Hitler almost NEVER kept to his international agreements. If you think Hitler honoured his treaties how you you explain Munich?

Well despite the comments above, i for one was happy for the first time since leaving the army to actually put my medals on and to push my great-uncle in his wheelchair to a service yesterday. I am not a religious man, but we have to remember the sacrifices that those men and ladies made, it was not their choice but they died in droves and they believed they were doing it for the right reasons, what they saw was horrific and it shaped this country for the generations after.

Again whilst i will always be a "Remainer", it seems to have become a dirty word to be patriotic, as De Gaulle said

"to be patriotic is to love your country, to be nationalistic is to hate other countries".

And whilst i do not agree with with many of the conflicts we have found ourselves in, in uniform i have been there to replace the firemen when they striked, in a UN uniform when we stood guard over mass graves in Kosova assisting with trying to place a names to those corpses found, we've worked supporting aid workers following hurricane relief and i could list many more examples.

There seems to be a thought by some that to want to serve your country is to be want to be a war-monger.

And to say that in WW2 we could of cut a deal to save ourselves, what a complete bunch of arse.....

Bruce Wee wrote:

"The vast vast majority of people who contributed to the war effort were not around to vote in the referendum. It’s about time the baby-boomers stopped taking credit for their parents actions."

But they voted in the 1975 referendum, the first one. They voted to stay in the EC.