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I've just seen this on a job advert:
This role is subject to an Occupational Requirement (OR) that the successful applicant is a Christian who is committed to the values, beliefs and behaviours set out in our ethos statement.
Is that legal? Fair enough asking for people to be committed to a companies ethos statement but requiring them to be a Christian seems a bit much.
Is the role a vicar?
Well I'm guessing if you are applying to be Pope then it's not unreasonable
there are loopholes to allow for religious organisations to hire people from their religion. I believe the loopholes have been used in dubious places before, but if its a church or maybe a church school (??) I think its legal
some info here https://www.stoneking.co.uk/literature/e-bulletins/religious-occupational-requirement-exception-discrimination-claims
There is a family company that insisted on this cannot remember them but they are well know might be furniture/construction.
I *think it's ok with the law just.
Yes in rare cases organisations are allowed to request certain protected characteristics e.g. gender, race religion.
For example to work in a women's safe space, they may want to only employ a woman for certain role etc
Job is for an outdoor activity instructor.
I doubt then its legal unless the whole organisation is a part of a church
Yes legal under the equality act. When there's a genuine requirement to discriminate.
For the outdoor instructor, If part of the role is to provide religious guidance, then yes. I think if you were recruiting for a admin role in outdoor centre that is religious based, then probably not.
If the job description/role is only concerned with teaching outdoor sports and not responsible for the spiritual/religious development of people then it is discriminatory.
If the role has a specific responsibility to teach/lead on religious topics then it would be acceptable.
eg. you don't have to be catholic to teach maths in a catholic school
See ACAS training/guidance
I'm confident my prayers about the safety of that belay will do the trick, lads.
Is it the Saly Army Job?
If so, it was a bit "baity" not to put that in the OP.
Job is for an outdoor activity instructor.
Jesus saves, but so do buoyancy aids and climbing helmets...
When there’s a genuine requirement to discriminate
Job is for an outdoor activity instructor.
I think they're acting illegally here. Religion is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act, it's not lawful to ask a candidate in a job interview unless it's directly relevant to the role.
If the job description/role is only concerned with teaching outdoor sports and not responsible for the spiritual/religious development of people then it is discriminatory.
Interesting stuff. The other thing that is nuts is how many qualifications they are looking for, and the level of management responsibility, for £23k a year.
Its not for me, I was just looking to help a friend out who is new to the area and works in the industry so pointing her to local vacancies.
This is the job
https://rockuk.org/career/current-vacancies/
eg. you don’t have to be catholic to teach maths in a catholic school
Do you have to be Catholic to teach RE in a Catholic school?
Surely the importance here is a command of the subject. Similarly in the OP, one could follow "the values, beliefs and behaviours set out in our ethos statement" whilst being, say, Muslim?
Human resources moves in mysterious ways.
Christian charity so guess they do a bit of religious guidance/ indoctrination or not belay you safely?
From their blurb:
Rock UK is a Christian charity who have a passion to invest in young people. We welcome people of all faiths and none and provide a safe and friendly environment for them to be themselves.
Asking for Christian-only staff makes it seem like a bit of active evangelising to a captive audience of roped up kids is expected then.
If the outdoor centre is religiously affiliated and offers religious guidance to it's guests, than it's fine to recruit some-one who believes in the region in question and to discriminate against those who don't (but even if they can still understand and quote bits of the bible), so if there are two otherwise equally good candidates; one believes the other doesn't, it's Ok to chose the former, you're not breaking the law.
It's that simple.
From the front page of their website...
[i]GUIDED BY FAITH
Rock UK is a Christian charity who have a passion to invest in young people. We welcome people of all faiths and none and provide a safe and friendly environment for them to be themselves.[/i]
...but if you've got a captive audience you may as well try and convert them all to Christianity!
Do you have to be Catholic to teach RE in a Catholic school?
No because RE isn't religious instruction, it's education about religions. Anyone could teach the material.
I know of one education institution that requires its principal to be Catholic, but no-one else.
but if you’ve got a captive audience you may as well try and convert them all to Christianity!
Unlikely to be any conversion going on - they probably just want to make sure that they can claim to be upholding 'Chrisian values' so they can continue to get funding.
There is a care home in Edinburgh that only takes protestant Christian nurses and patients. Its owned by a church tho so legal
Rock UK is a Christian charity who have a passion to invest in young people. We welcome people of all faiths and none and provide a safe and friendly environment for them to be themselves.
This role is subject to an Occupational Requirement (OR) that the successful applicant is a Christian who is committed to the values, beliefs and behaviours set out in our ethos statement.
Quite some contradiction that, isn't it?
eg. you don’t have to be catholic to teach maths in a catholic school
My wife did that (OK, was a finance person rather than a teacher, but there was a 'preference may be given to ...' clause in the job advert)
She only had one problem when she was there, another staff member (not a Senior Leader, just another staffer) asked her if she was going to the staff prayer meeting, and when she said no because she wasn't catholic was asked slightly aggressively why she had taken a job in a catholic school. Other staff were all fine about it. I think they were a bit more restrictive on staff who were pupil facing (ironic given the church's record with kids, perhaps better to keep them away.... 😉 )
Job of maintenance technician states:
The successful candidate will need to have an understanding of the organisation’s Christian ethos and a willingness to work within an environment that seeks to promote that ethos.
So no requirement to stand in front of the busted boiler and fix it with the laying on of hands.
I'd assume that the outdoors instructor might need to believe in the raising of the dead. It would certainly save a lot of boring safety procedures.
Job is for an outdoor activity instructor.
White water baptisms
If the outdoor centre is religiously affiliated and offers religious guidance to it’s guests, than it’s fine to recruit some-one who believes in the region in question and to discriminate against those who don’t
Would it be acceptable to do the opposite? Set up an atheist organisation and deliberately not recruit anyone who is at all religious?
White water baptisms
More efficient - you can do a whole boat-load in one go! 🙂
The successful candidate will need to have an understanding of the organisation’s Christian ethos and a willingness to work within an environment that seeks to promote that ethos.
So no requirement to stand in front of the busted boiler and fix it with the laying on of hands.
That doesnt require the person to be religious, just be aware of what the organisation is and does. I know its difficult to believe but even some atheists can manage to meet, talk to and work with religious people and organisations and be polite about it. But some people do find other people's faith difficult so they're just making a fair disclosure about what the organisation is. They're giving the candidate the opportunity to discriminate, they're not discriminating against the candidate.
If the outdoor centre is religiously affiliated and offers religious guidance to it’s guests, than it’s fine to recruit some-one who believes in the region in question and to discriminate against those who don’t
So this centre is in a really remote place with limited employment opportunities. They are also advertising for an Administrator with the same Christian requirement. If someone local who is well qualified for the job cannot apply purely based on their religion rather than experience, do you think that is fine? Why do you need to be a Christian to do administration well (or outdoor instruction)?
"Quite some contradiction that, isn’t it?"
Not really. I think the charity sees itself as a group of Christian people providing their services to people of all faiths or none.
They're not saying "we welcome people of all faiths and none to come and work for us".
.
That doesnt require the person to be religious, just be aware of what the organisation is and does. I know its difficult to believe but even some atheists can manage to meet, talk to and work with religious people and organisations and be polite about it. But some people do find other people’s faith difficult so they’re just making a fair disclosure about what the organisation is.
The maintenance job is the only one written in this way, every other job states must be Christian
the successful applicant is a Christian who is committed to the values, beliefs and behaviours set out in our ethos statement.
Is this "ethos statement" available to read anywhere?
IIRC a Scottish Catholic School tried to get round the requirement to include Non-Catholic staff by requiring all applicants to include 2x references, one of which had to be from their priest.
They are also advertising for an Administrator with the same Christian requirement
Again, if the admin job has a JD that includes religious guidance to the folks that come to the centre then again, it's fine to discriminate against those candidates who don't believe. If not, then that's probably not legal.
do you think that is fine?
It's the legislation set out in the equalities act, whether i think it's fine is moot.
Why do you need to be a Christian to do administration well (or outdoor instruction)?
Because if they instructor/admin is expected to give religious guidance then it make sense to be able to discriminate towards folks who believe, or against those who do not. Why would you, if you don't believe, want to go and work in an organisations that's going to expect you to give (for instance) biblically/Christian appropriate answers to guest's questions about life the universe and everything...
I get that it otherwise probably seems like a good opportunity to your friend, in a limited area of available work but it may not be a good a fit.
Kind of reminds me of the parents who used to go to church for the month before school applications so they could get their kids into the better Catholic school back when I was young.
Nowadays there seems to be a trend to send Muslim girls to the Catholic school in Southampton but I think that is mainly because it is / was a single sex school.
If someone really wants the job, surely it's easy to pretend to be religious? Amen (see)
So no requirement to stand in front of the busted boiler and fix it with the laying on of hands.
I'm not sure how you'd fix a broken boiler without the laying on of hands...
If someone really wants the job, surely it’s easy to pretend to be religious? Amen (see)
I think the test is whether you can do that hand-cross-chest thing in the right order and at the correct point in the conversation. The answer to any religious question is, of course, 'Well, that would be an ecumenical matter'.
I’m not sure how you’d fix a broken boiler without the laying on of hands…
Laying on of spanners?
Why would you, if you don’t believe, want to go and work in an organisations that’s going to expect you to give (for instance) biblically/Christian appropriate answers to guest’s questions about life the universe and everything…
Money?
Who the hell goes to admin staff for spiritual advice anyway.
From what i understand of the law they are on very dodgy grounds but I am not sure and it might take a court or tribunal to sort it out.
The answer to any religious question is, of course, ‘Well, that would be an ecumenical matter’.
Drink!
sure, good points. It's not about money though it's about what organisations are legally allowed to say in ads, and choose at interview.
Quite some contradiction that, isn’t it?
Not really - the first part is you need to be a Christian before they give you any money, the second part is they don't care what religion you are if you're giving them money.
Interesting stuff. The other thing that is nuts is how many qualifications they are looking for, and the level of management responsibility, for £23k a year.
Say what now? How much? Ok, I guess if the applicant is single without a mortgage or anything. Suit a religious studies student straight from college or uni.
Would it be acceptable to do the opposite? Set up an atheist organisation and deliberately not recruit anyone who is at all religious?
Well, there’s the Satanic Temple; they are non-judgmental, and fully support the LGBTQ+ community. I keep meaning to fully join and get my membership card and a tee shirt.
I’m not sure how you’d fix a broken boiler without the laying on of hands…
Chapeau! 🎩
The answer to any religious question is, of course, ‘Well, that would be an ecumenical matter’.
Oh, well done! 🍷
I’d assume that the outdoors instructor might need to believe in the raising of the dead. It would certainly save a lot of boring safety procedures.
At some point someone will ask something like why did Jesus kill my gran or baby sister or why does god give kids cancer.
It would be unreasonable to either expect someone to lie and pretend some sky fairy exists and unreasonable on the kids to burst their bubble with the truth
Well, there’s the Satanic Temple; they are non-judgmental, and fully support the LGBTQ+ community. I keep meaning to fully join and get my membership card and a tee shirt.
I've just checked it out, and my (Christian) MiL would really love me to wear one of those t-shirts! (She doesn't like halloween, Harry Potter..) 😀
Jesus saves, but so do buoyancy aids and climbing helmets…
reminds of a joke...
A religious man was drowning in the middle of the sea.
A boat stopped by and the sailor said:
"Hey there, do you need help?"
The man then said: "No thank you, God will save me"
The sailor left in a hurry and confused.
The man kept praying and praying.
A second boat arrived and the sailor said holding the lifejacket:
"Uh hi, do you need a hand?"
The man said: "No thank you, God will save me"
And proceeded to drown.
He woke up in heaven and saw God, he asked God:
"God? Why didn't you save me?!"
God then replies:
"I sent you two boats you idiot."
I'm reminded of a former workmate who before joining us had failed to get into a Roman Catholic teacher training college. Her interview involved a bit of back and forth which it turned out was establishing whether she was RC. When asked her religon "Christian" wasn't the right answer. As a Christian of Indian origin who wasn't that long in the UK she hadn't appreciated the ins and outs of our Christian sects.
hadn’t appreciated the ins and outs of our Christian sects.
Clearly not altar boy material then.
Would it be acceptable to do the opposite? Set up an atheist organisation and deliberately not recruit anyone who is at all religious?
Does atheism rank equal to religion as a protected characteristic? If so, yes!
I worked in a Local Authority run and funded, but Denominational (RC) school. I was an employee of the LA.
I held an 'acting' promoted post for 5 and a half years. When the job was advertised on a permanent basis, the local Bishop, who had never met me, not raised any concerns during the previous five and a half years, blocked my application. I was denied even the chance to be interviewed for the role that I had been doing, with no complaints from pupils, parents, colleagues, the LA, or the even the Church for over half a decade.
For a body that places so much store in "values", that stinks. Imoved elsewhere and never looked back.
Rock are a Christian charity and all staff are Christian, quite strongly so some of them. Rather unsurprisingly they’re very nice guys and do a lot of good. Yes, it’s perfectly legal.
Interestingly the local CoE schools that use the centre don't require their teachers to be Christian, only to follow christian values
Rock are a Christian charity and all staff are Christian, quite strongly so some of them. Rather unsurprisingly they’re very nice guys and do a lot of good. Yes, it’s perfectly legal.
^ that. I've good friends who have worked for RockUK, and I've worked for the competition at Abernethy and (now non existent) Tarf Trust.
It's legal and normal. Falls under protected characteristics. Plus, if you didn't have a faith, why would you want to work there?
The bigger issue you should all be upset by is the shockingly low pay across outdoor industry and the low levels of competence and qualifications in some of the larger centres who never leave site. Pay peanuts, get a monkey. But then ask everyone to send their dahlings there for a week under a poorly trained, low paid "groupie" or "gapper"....
Interesting thread- I have a close family member who works at one of the Rock centres, and my biggest concern is now how little they are paid for what they do, compared to my non-managerial desk job!
if you didn’t have a faith, why would you want to work there?
Because you need a job, are qualified, and are passionate about their supposed primary purpose of educating outdoors?
Because you need a job, are qualified, and are passionate about their supposed primary purpose of educating outdoors?
Indeed. There's a dozen other outdoor centres in the area. They pay more too.
Ah sorry I thought the OP said that opportunities locally were sparse.
Indeed. There’s a dozen other outdoor centres in the area. They pay more too.
This is Newcastleton, it’s very isolated with few employers in the area, the next nearest outdoor centre is Calvert in Kielder. Nothing else at all in the area, not accurate at all to say there are a dozen other centres in the area.
It’s legal and normal. Falls under protected characteristics.
A "protected characteristic" being something that you cannot discriminate against, not something that you can discriminate in favour of.
I'm opening a childcare centre next week and I'm only employing heterosexual women of childbearing age.
Plus, if you didn’t have a faith, why would you want to work there?
Because it's a role wholly independent of a belief system? I can't erect a tent because I don't believe in god, said no-one ever.
Interesting thread- I have a close family member who works at one of the Rock centres, and my biggest concern is now how little they are paid for what they do, compared to my non-managerial desk job!
They have the love of Jesus to compensate. Win some, lose some.
if you didn’t have a faith, why would you want to work there?
At one level that's innocuous and at another one of the most disturbing comments I've read in a long time.
Is this a Marie Antionette moment ??? or is it as a prefer to believe Matt trying to justify to himself why he does this for shit pay?
^ that. I’ve good friends who have worked for RockUK, and I’ve worked for the competition at Abernethy and (now non existent) Tarf Trust.
So what afterlife insurance are the competition selling or more to the point really what is actually going on at these outdoor pursuit centres?
Their website says open to all faiths or something... so assuming they perhaps start the day with some sort of prayer presumably those customers who don't share the faith can just opt out?? So why wouldn't/shouldn't the staff who don't share the faith also opt out?
I don't there's any suggestion that some-one who doesn't believe can't do the job. The employers have just stated that they will discriminate (legally) towards candidates that can demonstrate shared beliefs and against candidates that cannot.
Seems perfectly straightforward?
I don’t there’s any suggestion that some-one who doesn’t believe can’t do the job.
Read the job adverts (or this post), all bar one say exactly that.
The employers have just stated that they will discriminate (legally) towards candidates that can demonstrate shared beliefs and against candidates that cannot.
If a candidate's religious beliefs aren't directly relevant to the job role then it is unlawful to even ask the candidate what their religious beliefs are. For exactly that reason, it enables discrimination.
If the role involves some sort of spiritual guidance then being of a given faith seems a reasonable requirement. But compare the wording on the first two jobs listed on the page linked earlier:
"Maintenance Technician
The successful candidate will need to have an understanding of the organisation’s Christian ethos and a willingness to work within an environment that seeks to promote that ethos."
This sounds perfectly reasonable, right? You're working for a Christian organisation and expected to follow their "Christian ethos" (whatever that is, it doesn't appear to be explained anywhere). There's little difference here between this statement and most other 'corporate values' drink-the-Kool-Aid bollocks.
"Administrator
This role is subject to an Occupational Requirement (OR) that the successful applicant is a Christian who is committed to the values, beliefs and behaviours set out in our ethos statement."
Here though... this is an admin role, why is a particular religious belief a requirement in order to answer the phone and take bookings? This is surely shaky ground legally.
All the other vacancies have the latter wording. I can kinda see the justification with the instructors, in a slightly uncomfortable "captive audience of impressionable minds" sort of way (though it does look an awful lot like C&P boilerplate text rather than having had any thought put into it). But what's the justification with the Admin role above, "OK Mr Smith, that's a family of five booked in for 3pm on Saturday; just one more thing before you go, have you heard the good news about Jesus?"
Have a look at the legislation Cougar. This type of discrimination is legal provided certain conditions are met. I suspect rock uk are on the edge of what is acceptable legally but i couldn't find the right legislation or guidelines
I can’t erect a tent because I don’t believe in god, said no-one ever.
Anyone who has enjoyed the spectator sport of watching couples/families erect a tent on a campsite, especially in wind, rain, or with the "assistance" of children, will be well aware that Jesus Christ is invoked regularly throughout the process.
Jesus saves - but Simon Peter scores from the rebound.
Cougar
This sounds perfectly reasonable, right? You’re working for a Christian organisation and expected to follow their “Christian ethos” (whatever that is, it doesn’t appear to be explained anywhere). There’s little difference here between this statement and most other ‘corporate values’ drink-the-Kool-Aid bollocks.
I think if organisations want to act on not having drunk their very specific coolaid they need to provide training ??
An engineer for example might be required to have a good working knowledge of ISO 123456 or IEEE best practice for x,y,z but not for example know their parking policies. (for example reverse parking)
I can kinda see the justification with the instructors, in a slightly uncomfortable “captive audience of impressionable minds” sort of way
Except their wesite say's (the customers) can be of all faiths and non. (and even the customers bit is vague)
GUIDED BY FAITH
Rock UK is a Christian charity who have a passion to invest in young people. We welcome people of all faiths and none and provide a safe and friendly environment for them to be themselves.
Im astonished that anyone would think it is not ok for a Christian organisation to want to hire Christians in roles like this. To me, this shows a total lack of appreciation of just about any faith based organisation. I get that the UK is secular. And most people are extremely distanced from religion, and so have very little understanding or appreciation of religious organisations. But this thread shows a lack of willingness by many folks to appreciate or understand faith issues.
But even so, Honestly, I’m flabbergasted that anyone would think there is a problem with an organisation like this wanting to ensure they recruit practicing Christians.
To me, this shows a total lack of appreciation of just about any faith based organisation.
It amazes me that this sort of scam set up to prey on the vulnerable is even allowed
But even so, Honestly, I’m flabbergasted that anyone would think there is a problem with an organisation like this wanting to ensure they recruit practicing Christians.
It’s the 21st Century. I’m flabbergasted that this is allowed.
Some places irs right. You wouldnt want an atheist vicar. Obviously absurd. Sime places its not ok. Nhs hospitals.
This seems to me to be an edge case but has anyone read the law?
IANAL, but have read (some of) the legislation behind this.
If the company has a genuine religious ethos (typically presented as a statement, mission statement etc, but must be backed up in reality) AND tasks within the role require the holder to be religious then yes, it is legal.
an outdoors instructor or administrator would NOT typically meet that requirement (A priest, for example, obviously would)
but, there have been cases where the whole company ethos is so strong (all staff offering religious support to each other, and all staff participating in religious observance as part of the working day etc) that it is deemed legal.
All depends on the strength of the ethos at court.
muhammed-v-leprosy-mission 2009 won, sheridan vs prospects 2006 lost.
FWIW, I'm atheist.
Im astonished that anyone would think it is not ok for a Christian organisation to want to hire Christians in roles like this.
In roles like... an admin assistant?
I’m flabbergasted that anyone would think there is a problem with an organisation like this wanting to ensure they recruit practicing Christians.
Because it is discrimination and is likely illegal. Would your flabber be equally gasted if people were questioning an organisation wanting to ensure that they only recruited white people?
organisation wanting to ensure that they only recruited white people?
There is really no comparison between someone's deeply held personal beliefs and the level of melanin in someone's skin.
Which why skin colour isn't usually a barrier to joining a political or religious organisation.
Anti-discrimination legislation simply recognises that everyone has the right to be different, whether it's through personal choice or whether it's through birth.