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So, famously, religious niceties outrank obvious sensible safety concerns when it comes to motorcycle helmets for Sikhs. Muslim nurses are exempted from ‘bare below the elbow’ for entirely cultural reasons. Sikhs can wear a bangle, Christians can wear a wedding band, on there finger, so long as it’s ‘plain’ (that’s all right then; bacteria only like bling, not warm dark places next to skin...) All of which make a mockery of the guidance, but y’know, cultural sensitivity. Maybe Christian C Diff bacteria is less infectious than atheist C Diff? Dunno.
Anyway, bare below the elbow is a badly evidenced public propaganda policy rather than a serious attempt to address infection control issues; it’s free, see?
Staff in the NHS are being required to wear fob watches rather than wrist watches for ‘infection control’ reasons; only thing is, a fob watch is manipulated every time it’s used; a wrist watch isn’t. And guess what? There’s solid evidence that it’s the manipulation of infrequently cleaned watch type devices that spreads the bugs, NOT the location that it is strapped to the clinicians anatomy. Public image though, eh? 🤬
Anyway. I’m getting increasingly fit and active, and it’s rather important to me. I’m wearing my Garmin, I’m not going to touch it, it’ll get removed and wiped down regularly, and it’s CULTURALLY important to me. I claim exemption. Will I be discriminated against for my lack of deityage? I expect the answer is yes.
Seems it’s better to be religious; there’s definite perks.
How effective is the Oligodynamic effect? I should know this seeing as I work in a lab and studied medical science, but I have no ****ing clue.
What you are suggesting is I can have a Garmin, so long as it’s silver, brass or copper? 😂 I’m on it...
Anyway, bare below the elbow is a badly evidenced public propaganda policy rather than a serious attempt to address infection control issues; it’s free, see?
To put it scientifically, I'd get murdered to death by the Plant Manager, QC Micro and HR if I walked into one of the highly sterile (there's no such thing as complete sterility) manufacturing areas with short sleeves on.
What you are suggesting is I can have a Garmin, so long as it’s silver, brass or copper? 😂 I’m on it…
Hah!
Hairy arms?
Anyway, time to insist on wedding rings and watches to be made of brass?
Nahhh not really that, the amount of bacteria and dead skin cells you shed is ridiculous. Lab wear basically attempts to capture some of it and contain it within your suit. Going into hospitals and seeing the rather rudimentary procedures the clinical world has for microbiological control is always a bit of a surprise to me but that is probably out of ignorance, our procedures probably can't be easily applied to a clinical setting.
The next time you're using injectable medicines, think of all of lab rats of the world - working in clean rooms with white floors, white walls, white roofs, white desks, white computers and glass doors - whilst peering out from behind their goggles, full body suits, nitrile gloves and masks.
Sometimes, at night time when it's quiet and I'm carrying out some kind of internal audit, I swear I'm in an apocalyptic sci-fi horror film. Often I half expect to hear, "I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that." when I try to enter an access controlled room.
Just need to go an work in a BSL-IV lab now, so I can pretend I'm a spaceman.
muslim nurses are not exempt from bare below the elbow and the reason for a plain band not one with a stone is the plain band can be kept clean, one with a stone has crevices that are not easy to keep clean
I don't know any nurse that wear fob watches and the reason for not having wrist watches is again -= bugs hide in them and people wear wrist watches do not wash their hands properly - nothing to do with the watch itself
Bare below the elbow was to stop doctors with their filthy long sleeved white coats brushing the filthy cuffs over everything. same with banning ties - the filthy things are never washed
But what about the wahoos?
🙁
But everyone uses the same pens, keyboards and landline phones in hospitals. 😁
TJ has it apart from the fob watch part loads of nurses wear them but they can very easily be cleaned.
I have heard the fitness excuse for wearing a HR watch a few times, sorry but without a reported and documented medical reason for one there’s no need.
But everyone uses the same pens, keyboards and landline phones in hospitals.
Wipe clean keyboards are a thing, but they’re apparently not cheap and hence IM&T don’t supply them.
Anyway. I’m getting increasingly fit and active, and it’s rather important to me. I’m wearing my Garmin, I’m not going to touch it, it’ll get removed and wiped down regularly, and it’s CULTURALLY important to me
Get a chest strap and connect it to a phone or garmin in your pocket.
Sometimes, at night time when it’s quiet and I’m carrying out some kind of internal audit,
Fnarr.
When I stopped working with dentists and became more involved with working with local trusts, I used to be amazed how many nurses still think it's OK to go to and from their places of work in their uniforms (often on public transport). I've given up worrying about it, but I don't hang about in hospitals more than is absolutely necessary to do my job
An ex used to work in a food processing plant, she often (only half) joked that if the factory shared the same policies as hospitals, they'd be shut down.
Get a chest strap and connect it to a phone or garmin in your pocket.
But how will others know he’s into fitness?
Oh they’ll know.
Depends on wear you work. 🙂
On a hospital ward, it's all very Hattie Jaques.
In secure mental health, not so much.
Lower security step down units tend to be quite informal - medium and high security not so much.
Our place only introduced uniforms a couple of years ago. Liberties are taken.
I do tend to tie my hair back, even though I've never been asked to do so. Harder to grab onto, innit?
Wipe clean keyboards are a thing, but they’re apparently not cheap and hence IM&T don’t supply them.
We use these on my current Intensive Care Unit.
https://sterileflat.com/product/sterileflat-antibacterial-backlit-keyboard/
It's pretty much moot though, given that we don't have changing rooms (to get into scrubs, as with most ITUs) and have to wear the same nursing uniform as everyone else in the hospital (including to and from work).
the reason for not having wrist watches is again -= bugs hide in them and people wear wrist watches do not wash their hands properly – nothing to do with the watch itself
I’m always washing my hands, getting in and out of lots of cars every day, your hands get pretty filthy, (from dust and dirt on the bodywork, and the inside can be truly filthy, some ex-owners leave them like a pigsty), but that doesn’t extend right up my arms, so the underside of my watch gets pretty manky, especially when it’s hot, so not wearing wris****ches in areas where disease control is paramount makes perfect sense.
Being increasingly fit and active isn't the same as having a religion. Now if you were Vegan, a triathlete or into Crossfit...
You missed BJJ off your list MLC!
I have read (don't ask me where) that lots of bacteria keep each other in check. You cannot stamp out all bacteria, and apparently most of our defences are in the variety of different bacteria fighting each other rather than poisoning us.
Would nurses not wearing uniforms on PT actually help?
Would nurses not wearing uniforms on PT actually help?
Probably not in the majority of nursing roles. Nursing staff are far more aware of hygiene than their patients and visitors, the two groups that are far more likely to bring infections into and out of hospitals. The 5 moments of hand hygiene is far more important for infection prevention than where uniforms are worn pre and post shifts.
nurses wearing uniform outside of hospital are subject to disciplinary action and in my area they have been. NO one has been dismissed but several have had written warnings for it.
Yeah most hospital trusts don’t allow staff to wear uniform going to and from work.
I've been in hospitals breweries and food factories. Without question the cleanest places were pet food factories. The whiney animal activists were the ones who could get you closed down the fastest.
All this fuss yet can walk in to a hospital with filthy shoes on
Fitness tracking isn't a religion, no matter how much you'd think it is looking at social media.
Yeah most hospital trusts don’t allow staff to wear uniform going to and from work.
None of the trusts I'm familiar with have this policy.
My current trust only mentions that staff should wear a coat over their uniform when travelling to/from work. My future employer doesn't even mention where 'standard' nursing uniform can/can't be worn, only specifically mentioning where theatre/ITU scrubs may be used.
Implementing this sort of policy is impractical for many trusts for simple cost reasons. In order to have a "no uniform outside of work" policy there are many things that have to be provided, not the least of which are changing rooms with secure storage for non-work clothing. In many trusts there just isn't the room in hospitals to provide this.
Fnarr.
You joke, but we found the sex diary of someone who had ****ed in just about every room in the building and documented it.
Thats weird Sootyandjim. Every hospital I have worked in has a no uniform outside of hospital policy and proper changing facilities
As an aside, has anyone seen a guy in a turban riding a motorbike or bicycle in the UK, ever?
It's not something that I've encountered.
Yeah two Sikh dudes on a Harley round Wembley.
You see all sorts in London.
As an aside, has anyone seen a guy in a turban riding a motorbike or bicycle in the UK, ever?It’s not something that I’ve encountered.
Not since the mid 90’s when Delboy invented the “crash turban”
Every hospital I have worked in has a no uniform outside of hospital policy and proper changing facilities
This is the relevant guidance for NHS England. NHS Scotland may do things differently.
Upshot - no evidence that wearing to and from working increases infection risk, but staff told to either change or cover it up because of public perception.
Our cycleshed was within an internal courtyard so everyone had to wheel their bicycle down a hospital corridor past the minor injuries unit to get to it. I always though that was pretty ironic.
Is there a religious exemption to planning applications?
Theres a few huge (£2million easily) houses sprung up near me that appear to be attached to sheds* with plaques reading "meeting house of the brotherhood of the flying spaghetti monster" or similar.
Are they genuine viccarages or will the shed quietly get a change of use application when it turns out that a shed in the middle of nowhere overlooking the thames valley doesnt have a sustainable pastafarian congregation?
*of footflaps proportions.
Without question the cleanest places were pet food factories. The whiney animal activists were the ones who could get you closed down the fastest.
Have you any contact details - could do with some to go and hassle the company that gave my cats TB ?
As an aside, has anyone seen a guy in a turban riding a motorbike or bicycle in the UK, ever?
It’s not something that I’ve encountered.
Yes, me! A bike rather than a motorbike that is, and I'm not even in that there London!
As an aside, has anyone seen a guy in a turban riding a motorbike or bicycle in the UK, ever?
YES ME ME ME!
I saw a big crew of motorcyclists with turbans (no helmets) and matching jackets riding along the M25 last year!
Was v surreal. Like a religious motorbike gang.
nurses wearing uniform outside of hospital are subject to disciplinary action and in my area they have been. NO one has been dismissed but several have had written warnings for it.
I live near our local hospital, and this can't be policy here as you see hospital staff travelling to and from work in their uniform constantly throughout the day.
I saw a big crew of motorcyclists with turbans (no helmets) and matching jackets riding along the M25 last year!
Was v surreal. Like a religious motorbike gang.
An oft-forgotten chapter of the Hell's Angels named "Sikh and Destroy"?
didn't Matthew & Luke (of Bible fame) both say "Sikh and you will find"
Our cycleshed was within an internal courtyard so everyone had to wheel their bicycle down a hospital corridor past the minor injuries unit to get to it. I always though that was pretty ironic.
Whilst my bike looks manky, I'm pretty sure the nature of the dirt minimises microbial growth. (No different to the shoes point above, in reality).
My favourite is seeing Theatre staff smoking in scrubs in the disgusting side alleys at the hospital.
Most hospital staff on public transport here go to work in uniform...
.... but anyway, why does the OP need a Garmin? Do you have Strava segments up and down the long corridors or is there a leaderboard for drug rounds which needs to be more officially timed? 🙂
OP here; I don’t need a Garmin. I don’t even own one, (yet😏) My point that I tried to make is why should religious niceties trump policy that (however clumsily) has been put in place to ultimately prevent harm or even in extreme circumstances, death? And why should my mate Harry, who is Technically a Sikh, but about as observant as a blind Jim Davidson, get a free pass to wear wrist ornamentation whereas atheist Sally, who’s simple bracelet was given to her by her daughter a week before she was killed), have to take it off? (Both true examples for what it’s worth)
Ally these points to the fact that it is an ill informed and poorly evidenced policy at best, and a cheap diversionary propaganda policy at worst, made me think that there’s a conversation worth having here.
I don’t think that there should be any religious exemptions. Bare below the elbow should mean actually bare below the elbow, no ifs or buts. Hurt feelings at having to take stuff off are just that; hurt feelings, whether or not there is some sort of historical but ultimately evidence free reason for the hurt feelings. Why should one group of peoples hurt feelings be considered more important than other people’s hurt feelings?
Upshot – no evidence that wearing to and from working increases infection risk, but staff told to either change or cover it up because of public perception.
Have you ever thought about the daily life of a seat on a bus? Snot, food, dirty hands and worse, which then gets transferred onto the overalls of the nurse and carried into hospital. Sure, it’s not going to be as bad as what people carry in on their feet but people don’t routinely do handstands in hospital, or play with the soles of their shoes. And even if there is only a chance of a tiny bit of infection being reduced, why risk it?
I see plenty of hospital staff wearing overalls out of work around us. I also worked in the food industry and labs and find it difficult to believe that hospital staff are allowed to do it.
didn’t Matthew & Luke (of Bible fame) both say “Sikh and you will find”
Moses didn't wear a helmet either when he came down the mountain in his Triumph.
And Jesus killed a kid when he pulled a skid on his Yamaha.
not to mention incurring some horrific dustbin lid injuries
get a free pass to wear wrist ornamentation whereas atheist Sally, who’s simple bracelet was given to her by her daughter a week before she was killed), have to take it off? (Both true examples for what it’s wort
she doesn't have to or its discrimination. It works both ways. If she is being told to remove it for H&S grounds then that trumps any religious exemption.
If she is being told to remove it for H&S grounds then that trumps any religious exemption.
She IS being told to take it off for (possibly spurious) H&S reasons, which Harry IS exempted from on religious grounds. First world problems, but it’s not right, is it?
H&S or infection control as it seems you’ve switched the reason?
Either way I’m not sure why it would be discrimination.
She IS being told to take it off for (possibly spurious) H&S reasons, which Harry IS exempted from on religious grounds. First world problems, but it’s not right, is it?
Then everyone else should be told to remove wrist jewellery as well then. If you choose religion over the law then you shouldn't be exempt. sikhs should wear motorcycle helmets if they want to use one. Religion shouldn't trump law but sadly it does.
You are protected by law from discrimination because of your religion or belief if you:
have no religion, for example, if you are an atheist.
H&S or infection control as it seems you’ve switched the reason?
IP&C is a form of H&S isn’t it? If not I stand corrected.
I agree with Poah that it’s a form of (albeit minor) discrimination; but I think that as an atheist one would not be protected under discrimination law. An absence of a protected characteristic would not afford protection I don’t think.
Edit; apparently atheists are afforded some protection under law. It would be interesting to see how a discrimination claim would play out though.
IP&C is a form of H&S isn’t it? If not I stand corrected.
No they’re separate.
Try challenging it if you think it’s discriminatory but I’d consult your union’s solicitor first.
I would put money on a turban providing more protection than the lowest quality, barely legal, open face helmet. So just think of it as a cloth helmet.
And you mentioned wedding rings being allowed for Christians, some breaking news for you atheists can wear wedding rings. See no discrimination.
apparently atheists are afforded some protection under law.
It isn’t “some” it’s the same. Y
Aye, that’s true; but there’s no more point than if I wore a turban on a motorbike really, is there?
Interestingly as an aside, wearing of turbans by non Sikhs on motorbikes has been tried, and they didn’t get away with it.
Could an atheist wear a plain metal bracelet as a Sikh can under ‘bare below elbow’ guidelines? Could an atheist wear 3/4 length sleeves as a Muslim female is allowed under the guidelines?
If so, then I agree, it’s not discrimination, it’s just an entirely pointless guideline.
TheManagementofHealthandSafetyatWorkRegulations1999.
These regulations cover patients and others exposed to microbiological infections, and include infection control measures.
Apparently not separate; came across this whilst trawling through the below linked document, which is the most up to date DOH guidance that I can find on Bare Below the Elbow. Interestingly this document also provides an exemption for ambulance staff to wear wrist watches, stating;
“For some clinical staff working outdoors, particularly ambulance teams, a wrist-watch may be essential. Where worn, these wrist-watches must be washable and be removed for hand washing.”
Oooh! Didn’t know that.
Yeah it’s local policies that prevent watches NWAS allow staff to wear them, other trusts do a blanket ban as it’s easier to manage then making sure people wash their watch.
Have you ever thought about the daily life of a seat on a bus? Snot, food, dirty hands and worse, which then gets transferred onto the overalls of the nurse and carried into hospital.
Not sure about what your local trust gets upto but;
- The only nurses I know who wear "overalls" are flight nurses.
- If you believe what nurses sit on can be easily transferred to their patients then its likely your knowledge of nursing procedures involves a search on Pornhub containing the words 'face', 'sit' and 'nurse'.
Is there more concern about what they are bringing out of the hospital rather than taking in?
– If you believe what nurses sit on can be easily transferred to their patients then its likely your knowledge of nursing procedures involves a search on Pornhub containing the words ‘face’, ‘sit’ and ‘nurse’.
You don’t see that it’s in any way possible a nurse may touch their clothing with their hands at some point during a shift ?
You don’t see that it’s in any way possible a nurse may touch their clothing with their hands at some point during a shift ?
I'm sure they/I do so regularly throughout a shift but as posted previously..
Is the 'religious exemption' theme purely about hygiene, cos I've noticed a number of religious stations on my dab radio.
If only there was some means by which I could permanently de-select them:)