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Because my other Half is a teacher at the school, and sometimes they have problems getting enough adults to supervise the kids on the trips.
As someone who would have previously been against these sort of trips (but without any actual knowledge of them, like most on here) I've had my opinion changed by actually seeing what happens and what the children get from it.
Having seen it first hand, I can't see a single negative in it.
And as I said, that's from a staunch EX catholic who has no time for religion at all generally.
I've had my opinion changed by actually seeing what happens and what the children get from it.
You've seen what one group of students gets from it. In other schools, in other contexts, there maybe very different experiences.
Current examples include religious schools redacting questions on evolution in GCSE biology papers, Academy chains with a religious main sponsor where science teachers are pressurised into teaching intelligent design, schools enforcing religious dress codes on female teachers.
Current examples include religious schools redacting questions on evolution in GCSE biology papers, Academy chains with a religious main sponsor where science teachers are pressurised into teaching intelligent design, schools enforcing religious dress codes on female teachers.
care to link to some primary sources as i smell bullshit except in maybe an odd case which will probably be put in special measures.
care to link to some primary sources as i smell bullshit except in maybe an odd case which will probably be put in special measures.
Are these good enough as primary sources?
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/mar/09/schools.religion
these are just the high-profile cases that I'm aware of off the top of my head.
Those are hardley representative or the norm.
Those are hardley representative or the norm.
Well, that's ok then 🙄
How do we feel about, [url= http://www.prayerspacesinschools.com/home ]Prayer Spaces in Schools[/url] which "enable children and young people to explore faith and spirituality from a broadly Christian perspective in a safe, creative and interactive way"?
It's an initiative of [url= http://uk.24-7prayer.com/ ]24-7 Prayer[/url] which "exists to reconcile the world to God in Jesus Christ" who [url= http://uk.24-7prayer.com/stories/kingdom-come-500-prayer-rooms-so-far/ ]claim that people have been healed of various conditions, including eczema and Chron's disease in their prayer rooms[/url].
They're [url= http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/state-schools-an-open-door-for-evangelical-groups-to-push-creationism-warns-study-8872452.html ]one of many groups going into state schools to [s]push their beliefs[/s] offer support to children[/url].
If you live near Bristol, [url= http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/dec/08/wont-go-back-to-creationist-zoo-bristol ]your kids could go on a trip to Noah's Ark zoo[/url]!
What's wrong with studying fairy stories?
What's wrong with studying fairy stories?
Nothing at all, provided they're presented that way, and not as fact.
I would hope as a teacher you would know what a primary source is, clearly not.
As far as what have you produced is concerned:
(i) The first one is an Orthodox Jewish School in Stamford Hill, one of the two main areas of Orthodox Jews in London. Would I prefer the parents at this school gave their children a better chance at answering exam questions? Yes but who am I, or indeed is the government to determine, how they bring up their children?
(ii) The second is a scare story, long on irrelevant facts but the kids will still be taught evolution.
(iii) This school has been closed down.
The point being that this is not wide spread and is certainly completely alien to what the Church of England has been teaching in schools for years.
I never said that. but you are using extreme cases to vilify a larger group. Which is fairly disingenuous.miketually - Member
Those are hardley representative or the norm.
Well, that's ok then
I would hope as a teacher you would know what a primary source is, clearly not.
As a teacher, I finished marking at 9pm and have just got the kids to bed, so can't be arsed trawling the internet.
you are using extreme cases to vilify a larger group. Which is fairly disingenuous.
I was using those cases to counter an earlier example.
completely alien to what the Church of England has been teaching in schools for years.
Which is what?
(i) The first one is an Orthodox Jewish School in Stamford Hill, one of the two main areas of Orthodox Jews in London. Would I prefer the parents at this school gave their children a better chance at answering exam questions? Yes but who am I, or indeed is the government to determine, how they bring up their children?
It's a state-funded school. I think that gives the government some say in what exam questions they should answer in a science exam.
Nothing at all, provided they're presented that way, and not as fact.
Are there non-faith schools where RE is actually doing this? I mean do we have evidence for real not just STW supposition? It certainly wasn't like this in our school, and that was 25 years ago.
but who am I, or indeed is the government to determine, how they bring up their children?
I think the govt and we are paying for it [ we are I checked] therefore we all have a say in what facts and truths are taught in THIS school. Let them answer the question anyway they see fit and mark it as we would any other school. if they wish to answer with creationism then let it be marked according to the agreed mark sheet.
Furthermore parents are not infallible, many of the parents in the closed Islamic school were disappointed , liked it and wanted it to stay open for example
Are there non-faith schools where RE is actually doing this? I mean do we have evidence for real not just STW supposition? It certainly wasn't like this in our school, and that was 25 years ago.
Remember, RE is distinct from worship.
My primary school (I left in 1988) had a daily act of collective worship, including hymns and prayer, plus a prayer before lunch was eaten. It wasn't a faith school, it was a bog standard primary on the edge of a council estate, with no link to a church.
The [url= https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/281929/Collective_worship_in_schools.pdf ]guidance on what RE/worship should be carried out in all state schools[/url] is fascinating:
Collective worship in schools should aim to provide the opportunity for pupils to worship God ... All registered pupils attending a maintained school should take part in daily collective worship ... , it must in some sense reflect something special or separate from ordinary school activities and it should be concerned with reverence or veneration paid to a divine being or power ... 'Taking part' in collective worship implies more than simply passive attendance
I don't think most parents realise that this is a legal requirement in all schools.
Generally speaking RE teachers* believe in much the same way as economists believe in economics and the market
We get a self selected non representative group of believers doing the teaching [ generally]just as we get generally right wing folk in economics. Not many atheists or commies study the the the thing they dislike and then go on to teach it
* I have nothing more than anecdote and some limited experience - no figures are available that I am aware of but I am prepared to be illuminated by evidence unlike the faith based approach to understanding 😛
As a teacher, I finished marking at 9pm and have just got the kids to bed, so can't be arsed trawling the internet.
If you spent less tine posting on here you would probably finish alot earlier.
I was using those cases to counter an earlier example.
Which I presume you think is an extreme case.
Which is what?
Accepted science, maths, humanities and a bit of wishy washy theology.
I'm getting flashbacks to primary school assemblies!
[img] 
[/img]
This was the hymn book. I remember pretending to pick the nose of the lad on the left, and feeding his bogies to him.
I also remember rewording some hymns slightly:
Who built the ark,
No-one, no-one,
Who built the ark,
Bloody no-one built the ark!
🙂
If you spent less tine posting on here you would probably finish alot earlier.
This is perfect for ten minute breaks.
Which I presume you think is an extreme case.
And?
Accepted science, maths, humanities and a bit of wishy washy theology.
Which includes specific reference to a divine creator.
That definition of collective worship is easily vague enough to avoid having to talk about God. Again - in my school, our assemblies were secular.
Generally speaking RE teachers* believe
I said NOT STW supposition. I'm asking for actual evidence that RE in schools is actually Chrstian doctrine presented as fact. Your imaginings don't help.
That definition of collective worship is easily vague enough to avoid having to talk about God
How do you do "reverence or veneration paid to a divine being" in a 'broadly Christian' way without mentioning God?
That definition of collective worship is easily vague enough to avoid having to talk about God. Again - in my school, our assemblies were secular.
Collective worship in schools should aim to provide the opportunity for pupils to worship God
Its not but some choose to do it less well than others.
I'm asking for actual evidence that RE in schools is actually Chrstian doctrine presented as fact. Your imaginings don't help.
Nice put down but i dont think the evidence you ask for is available so you can guess either side of that one from anecdotes
This is perfect for ten minute breaks.
You take alot of ten minute breaks, you should add that up some time.
And?
At least, it is a primary source which you singularly failed to come up with.
Which includes specific reference to a divine creator.
And stuff about other religions, which don't necessarily believe in a divine creator.
How do you do "reverence or veneration paid to a divine being" in a 'broadly Christian' way without mentioning God?Notice the liberal use of the word 'should' in the definition.
The priest gave a talk to the kids after the worship at the Hindu Temple yesterday.One of the main points of the talk was that there is good in everybody, no matter what faith/religion (or lack of either.)
And that the kids should try hard to nurture the good in themselves and look for the good in others.
At this point I hope the teacher and other sensible adults pointed out that these are the words of a crackpot so take them with a [s]pinch[/s] bucket full of salt.
Wise words from loony tunes is hardly a positive experience for school children IMO.
You take alot of ten minute breaks, you should add that up some time.
1. I don't
2. Piss off
At least, it is a primary source which you singularly failed to come up with.
It was one person's story about one school trip.
And stuff about other religions, which don't necessarily believe in a divine creator.
In RE, yes. The guidance was describing a compulsory act of Christian worship. They should happen in churches, voluntarily, on Sundays.
All maintained schools must provide religious education and daily
collective worship for all registered pupils and promote their spiritual, moral and cultural development.
Local agreed RE syllabuses for county schools and equivalent
grant-maintained schools must in future reflect the fact that religious
traditions in the country are in the main Christian whilst taking account of the teaching and practices of other principal religions. Syllabuses must be periodically reviewed.
Collective worship in county schools and equivalent grant-maintained
schools must be wholly or mainly of a broadly Christian character,
though not distinctive of any particular Christian denomination.
The should do relates to what they MUST do - its the first page of the article he linked and it is advice on how to do what they must do.
FWIW i got lucky I had not read it either 😉
1. I don't
2. Piss off
As such a disbeliever in religion I would have thought you could cope with reality.
I know all about my own flaws, thanks. Good still loves me.
[quote} molgrips - and what is wrong with studying fairy stories
Nothing at all, provided they're presented that way, and not as fact.
Are there non-faith schools where RE is actually doing this? I mean do we have evidence for real not just STW supposition? It certainly wasn't like this in our school, and that was 25 years ago.
It depends what you mean by "RE" - typically there are two distinct activities - one is a lesson like geography or biology or maths. Sometimes referred to as Religious Education or Religious and Moral Education. Typically involves studying a variety of religions, and belief systems.
In contrast however, as the OP referred to, and others including myself (as both pupil of similar vintage to yourself and a parent) I can assure you that Religious Observance is practiced in (some) non-denominational schools. (Indeed as I posted earlier it is expected 6x a year in Scottish Schools). That religious observance typically involves singing of hyms, prayer, bible readings (or telling of bible stories), is often led by a minister of religion and some may be held in churches. These acts of worship are never accompanied by any critical review. Indeed when I challenged our school last year when they talked about "the true meaning of Christmas, and why we give presents" - the theme of such a service I am still waiting to hear back why there was no reference to pre Christian pagan winter festivals which include the exchange of gifts during winter months...
So has anyone come up with any reason why Christianity [i]should[/i] be promoted in schools yet?
not really but your a very bad man for suggesting it shouldn't
So has anyone come up with any reason why Christianity should be promoted in schools yet?
A Hindu said something nice.
We have come a long way from the days when parents complained that their children didn't get the main part in the nativity play (are we still allowed to mention such things without causing offence) or reading the prayers or lesson!
You've seen what one group of students gets from it. In other schools, in other contexts, there maybe very different experiences.
There may be other, different personal experiences of kids being taught about other (non Christian) religions in school, but I've not heard any here ?
So I only have my own to go on.
Current examples include religious schools redacting questions on evolution in GCSE biology papers, Academy chains with a religious main sponsor where science teachers are pressurised into teaching intelligent design, schools enforcing religious dress codes on female teachers.
I'm not saying everything related to religion in education is perfect.
I was talking specifically about kids being educated about other religions and faiths, rather than only in the "default" Christian religions, as mentioned earlier.
I was using those cases to counter an earlier example
You may think you were.
My point was specifically aimed at the comment that kids don't get educated about other religions and don't go to Mosques, temples etc.
And as I said, in my own personal experience, they do.
The examples you raised are not really relevant to the point I was making, and certainly don't counter it in any way.
It's almost like I was scanning the thread rather than reading in depth 🙂
My point was specifically aimed at the comment that kids don't get educated about other religions and don't go to Mosques, temples etc.
Yet another straw man.
At this point I hope the teacher and other sensible adults pointed out that these are the words of a crackpot so take them with a pinch bucket full of salt.
Wise words from loony tunes is hardly a positive experience for school children IMO.
Thankfully all the adults there realised that the object of the exercise was to teach the children that different people believe different things, and that's ok.
The differences are not a reason to dislike or mock people.
Maybe next time you should come along, it's aimed at 8 year olds, but I'm sure they could slow it down a bit for you.
Yet another straw man.
How so ?
I replied and quoted the person that said it.
Maybe next time you should come along, it's aimed at 8 year olds, but I'm sure they could slow it down a bit for you.
And now childish personal insults. Just a thought, but shouldn't you be respecting the fact that he believes something different to you, and that's ok?
How so ?
I replied and quoted the person that said it.
Where has anyone claimed that children don't learn about other religions? The point is about the way they learn about Christianity as opposed to other religions. Also, you claimed someone said kids 'never go to mosques' whereas I specifically mentioned 'on a regular basis'.
Classic case of twisting other people's arguments to suit your own.
And now childish personal insults. Just a thought, but shouldn't you be respecting the fact that he believes something different to you, and that's ok?
He can believe anything he wants.
And he should give other people the same freedom, without calling them Crackpot and Loony Tunes.
If he came along then he might learn some tolerance.
You don't seem very tolerant of his beliefs.
Makes me realise that my kids are lucky. Service every day at schools including Sunday, lots of theology lessons (even to a level or equivalent) and lots of chances to have their go at reading something and choices for parents to either watch or ride their bikes as they choose. Marvellous, none of these terrible dilemmas to deal with.
You don't seem very tolerant of his beliefs.
How can I be, He hasn't said what they are, or even if he has any.
He just insulted someone he's never met, based purely on the fact that he's a Hindu.
Last day of term and in 90mins l'll be off to the kids CofE school for the end of term service in the church down the road. Followed by the kids Easter bonnet parade around the school playground, where tea and cake will be served.
Did you hear that?
Tea and cake
See another great reason to have a little faith in your life.
Hats, chocolate eggs, tea, and cake are also available in secular venues. I had a hot cross bun last night, without having to consider one of the means execution favoured by the Roman empire; it was lovely.
Easter bonnet parades and egg decorating competitions are a great English Easter tradition. Nothing to do with religion though.
Religion should be removed from the curriculum in any form other than awareness that it exists.
IanW - Member
Religion should be removed from the curriculum in any form other than awareness that it exists.
Probably the worst idea ever, teach about it but don't indoctrinate people. Ignorance is one of the biggest issues in the world.
So has anyone come up with any reason why Christianity should be promoted in schools yet?
No. Everybody is agreeing but is too busy disagreeing to notice!
Perhaps we should all love thy neighbour more
Perhaps we should all love thy neighbour more
Or do unto others?
grum - Member
So has anyone come up with any reason why Christianity should be promoted in schools yet?
I have two....and lots of their mates. Very lucky all of them. Glad the such an opportunity still exists these days.
It depends what you mean by "RE"
Well as you say, RE is the lesson where you learn about religion. Collective worship is different. And not all schools do a religious version of that.
So I don't think it's fair to complain about RE lessons - complain about collective worship instead.
Collective worship is different. And not all schools do a religious version of that.
But all schools should, by law. This law is wrong, and is what campaigners are trying to change.
I don't think it's fair to complain about RE lessons
Nobody is.
complain about collective worship instead
We are.
I have two....and lots of their mates. Very lucky all of them. Glad the such an opportunity still exists these days.So has anyone come up with any reason why Christianity should be promoted in schools yet?
Opportunities to read/sing in public can be, and are, provided in non-religious contexts.
The opportunity to sing and read aloud in a religious context is provided by your faith of choice on Fridays/Saturdays/Sundays at various venues around the country.
Indeed they are.
Not restricted to Fri/sat/Sun which is also a relief. They get more for nothing, even luckier than I first thought. And the music too, it's inspirational. Human voices and a skilled organist in harmony, fantastic.
Human voices and a skilled organist in harmony
Or, in a state school, a badly tuned upright piano played by an amateur (or a CD) while the hymn is sung without any real skill or enthusiasm.
None of which are arguments for/against compulsory Christian worship in state-funded schools.
Well a shame if such pleasures became restricted on an ability to pay basis?
mikewsmith - MemberIanW - Member
Religion should be removed from the curriculum in any form other than awareness that it exists.Probably the worst idea ever, teach about it but don't indoctrinate people. Ignorance is one of the biggest issues in the world.
So thats awareness then.
Well a shame if such pleasures became restricted on an ability to pay basis?
It sounds like they already are, in schools. How many state schools do you think have a pipe organ and organist? 🙂
Thankfully, churches, temples, mosques and synagogues don't charge entry fees so are available to all.
The piano can also sound beautiful in harmony with the human voice, and childrens' voices alone can also be sublime. But yes, it's good news those other places are free of charge too - ok, give or take, the small donation.
Perhaps we should do something about the fact that this is restricted on the ability to pay. That doesn't sound good.
Probably the worst idea ever, teach about it but don't indoctrinate people. Ignorance is one of the biggest issues in the world
I think the issue is that many consider the teaching and the forced act of worship to be an example of ignorance being forced upon us
Religion is a personal thing and those who wish to do it should be free to do so if they choose. What they should not do is make the rest of us do it
Good luck with your trolling re fee paying THM someone may respond..perhaps you could up the goading till they do?
FWIW you are happy with your choice as it reflects your view, why would you deny other parents the same choice? Ie no religion in education?
Its not like we are trying to force you to NOT worship.
The point I was making was that you need to teach people about the existence of religions and what it's about. This is what RE should be about.
The practice of religion is something completely different.
I have two....and lots of their mates. Very lucky all of them. Glad the such an opportunity still exists these days.
How is that any kind of reason/argument? What do you even mean by that?
This is what RE should be about.
And IS about IME.
Reasoned argument? Present cases where people have benefitted from the experience. Meant to be pretty obvious, not a parable! Plus the freedom to choose to have that option for them, for which I am very grateful. I had the same and so did they. I hope their grandchildren will as well.
...[b]forced[/b] act of worship to be an example of ignorance being forced upon us
No child is "forced" to take part, or even be present at an act of worship in school.
At least not in England.
Reasoned argument? Present cases where people have benefitted from the experience. Meant to be pretty obvious, not a parable! Plus the freedom to choose to have that option for them, for which I am very grateful. I had the same and so did they. I hope their grandchildren will as well.
It's nothing they couldn't get from a secular environment though. Still not an argument for the promotion of Christianity in schools.
...forced act of worship to be an example of ignorance being forced upon us
No child is "forced" to take part, or even be present at an act of worship in school.At least not in England.
Parents can opt out but, as this thread shows, many don't know that it happens. Plus, all the other kids will assume that they're Jehova's Witnesses if they opt out, as they're usually the only ones who do, and who wants to make their kid singled out in this way?
If a school is following the official guidance, "passive attendance" is not acceptable. That implies 'forced'* to take part; I certainly remember kids being told off for not singing or not bowing their head in prayer.
*for a given value of force
If a school is following the official guidance, "passive attendance" is not acceptable
Yes it is.
If a school is following the official guidance, "passive attendance" is not acceptable
Yes it is.
That's not argument, it's just contradiction.
It also ignores the actual words of the actual guidance:
'Taking part' in collective worship implies more than simply passive attendance
- [url= https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/281929/Collective_worship_in_schools.pdf ]paragraph 59[/url]
Yes, paragraph 59 defines what "taking part" means.
For those that don't want to take part......
86 The right of withdrawal from collective worship would normally be exercised through the physical withdrawal of the pupil from the place where the act of worship is taking place. Indeed the school could insist that this is the way the right is to be implemented. If, however, both the parent and the school agree that the pupil should be allowed to remain physically present during the collective worship but not take part in it, nothing in the law prevents this.
That's not argument, it's just contradiction.
It's a good one though 😉
It also ignores the actual words of the actual guidance:
Not really, it's just read all of them, not just the bits that it wants to argue against.
I actually didn't know there was any rules regarding this until recently, and was quite surprised that there were. ( think it was a post from Junkyard that I first heard about them)That's when I read the guidelines.
It's nothing they couldn't get from a secular environment though
Fortunately, they are in a position to make their own minds up on that. Interesting #2 was revising Natural Law Theory yesterday (yes, it's in RE) and the secular version (Aristotle) verses the alternative (Acquinas). Rather than being indoctrinated they are fully able to make their own views on the Summum Bonum. Thank God for education!!
it's just read all of them, not just the bits that support it's view
touché 🙂
Fortunately, they are in a position to make their own minds up on that.
Why not wait until they are adults to let them make that choice? I don't think you can legitimately claim kids are freely making up their own minds when they've been indoctrinated from a young age.
Plus the freedom to choose to have that option for them, for which I am very grateful. I had the same and so did they. I hope their grandchildren will as well
Not really contradicting the view that is is indoctrination and done to make folk believers though is it 😉
No answer as to why non believers are denied the same choice 😕
No it was Mikes link that i was quoting from so not mine - I did know there were rules though.think it was a post from Junkyard that I first heard about them)
The point I was making was that you need to teach people about the existence of religions and what it's about.
That it exists should be fairly easy to cover, whats it all about could be more difficult.
So, accepting that fact that my kids [i]would[/i] be entitled to spend part of their school day passively ignoring the singing and prayers, is it a good use of their time* and should it be something in which the state is engaging**?
*ten minutes per day is around 33 hours of school time per year, which is 400 hours over their school life
**active promotion of one (version of one) religion over the others
grum - Member
Why not wait until they are adults to let them make that choice?
As with lots of education, I believe that they are mature enough to be exposed to the beauties/horrors of the worlds religions (you decide). Ditto ethics, sex, calculus, and glaciation. Perhaps economics is indoctrination too far though?!?
I don't think you can legitimately claim kids are freely making up their own minds when they've been indoctrinated from a young age.
Well I can. We all discusses this over lunch in Monday. Every person around the table had their own views and had made up their own minds. The beauty of recognising that they are mature enough to take into account a broad church of views.
and how many of your christian friend's children freely decided of their own accord to start believing in a none christian religion?Well I can. We all discusses this over lunch in Monday. Every person around the table had their own views and had made up their own minds.
I would think for the vast majority the "choice" is to either follow their parent's/peer group's/school's* religion or don't bother at all.
*probably in descending order of influence but again for most I'd guess they're mostly the same for all 3, even if only "by default"
think it was a post from Junkyard that I first heard about them)
No it was Mikes link that i was quoting from so not mine - I did know there were rules though.
It was a while ago, in another of the many religion threads 😉