[Closed] Religion in schools

seosamh77 - Member

How exactly does this brainwashing work?

The same way religious indoctrination always works. Normalize rituals as part of everyday life, "educate" people in things to worry about (ideally make some normal everyday activities a sin, for maximum guilt) and tell them you can fix that. Ideally do it as young as possible. Better still, do it in a school, make it an opt-out so that anyone not taking part feels left out of something their mates are doing, because kids love being outsiders. And it's all in a learning environment where you're used to trusting what you're told, 2+2 is 4, i before e except after c, jesus died for your sins...

Religion can be a great thing for people- I'm not religious, I don't really understand it but I can respect people's choice. But we're talking here about trying to influence that choice, in the finest traditions of evangelical faith.

And don't tell me it won't influence them; why would we do it otherwise? It's not purely educational, that's obvious. It's as convincing as when tobacco companies say their adverts don't influence people to take up smoking.

If religious people want to indoctrinate their children I suppose that's up to them - but no way should it be state funded or happen at normal state schools.

I agree to a certain extent, but from another perspective, what would happen if all religious education was wiped off the curriculum apart from in private religious schools?

How exactly does this brainwashing work?

As mike notes its conditioning if you want to claim it doe snot work notice how many folk who never ever go to church and never will still call themselves religious and broadly christian

Well in society there are people that believe it is a good idea, in tolerant society, we try and accommodate these people.

Remind what their tolerant message is to me- a non believer who sins I believe they say- what exactly happens to me then? I bet its a lovely message of how much they tolerate my free choice and respect it....its is isn't it?

[i]English schools do not necessarily have a Christian bias.

They do. By law.
[/i]

What the law says and what actually happens can some times differ.

I wasn't made to feel like a troublemaker by anybody, and had the freedom to make my decision and do what I felt suited me.

Lucky you.

I notice no-one has yet come up with any argument as to why children [i]should[/i] be indoctrinated into a religion - just reasons why it might not be particularly damaging for some people.

Are you all similarly relaxed about Muslim faith schools?

what would happen if all religious education was wiped off the curriculum apart from in private religious schools?

What do you mean by religious education? I'm not suggesting kids in state funded schools shouldn't learn [i]about[/i] religion, that would be ridiculous.

OP, I assume you won't be taking Good Friday and Easter Monday off from work as these are religious holidays.
How about Christmas? Work through that holiday too. Don't give anybody any gifts. 25th December will be just another day for you then?
I couldn't care less about religion but go to church when required-Weddings/Funerals/Whatever.The kids will make their own mind on religion when they grow up. You never know, they might shave their heads and chant Harri Krishna for the rest of their lives. It will be their choice. Get over it.

How about Christmas? Work through that holiday too. Don't give anybody any gifts. 25th December will be just another day for you then?

You do know that christmas is a tradition that has absolutely nothing to do with christianity don't you?

Saturnalia was an ancient Roman festival in honor of the deity Saturn, held on December 17 of the Julian calendar and later expanded with festivities through December 23. The holiday was celebrated with a sacrifice at the Temple of Saturn, in the Roman Forum, and a public banquet, followed by private gift-giving, continual partying, and a carnival atmosphere that overturned Roman social norms: gambling was permitted, and masters provided table service for their slaves.[1] The poet Catullus called it "the best of days."[2]

Funnily enough the church seems to have sacked off the bit about reversing social norms.

OP, I assume you won't be taking Good Friday and Easter Monday off from work as these are religious holidays.
How about Christmas? Work through that holiday too. Don't give anybody any gifts. 25th December will be just another day for you then?

I celebrate the arrival of spring and the winter equinox, so take time off for those 🙂

Seriously, they're the result of out Christian heritage and culture. As a cultural Christians, many atheists celebrate Easter (yay, chocolate eggs!) and Christmas (yay, booze and pressies!) without giving any thought to their Christian meaning.

How many people [i]actually[/i] believe Jesus was born of a virgin in a stable and literally resurrected?

When the early Roman Church established a festival to celebrate the Messiah's birth, it timed that festival to coincide with an existing pagan festival celebrating the birthday of the sun god. By co-opting existing pagan rituals and customs, the church sought to win the pagan masses to its idea of Christianity, allowing converts to continue to practice familiar customs—just calling them by different names.

The "mother and child" motif in religion was well known in the ancient pagan world. The ancient Babylonians and Egyptians worshipped a "Madonna" whom they revered as the "Queen of Heaven"—a title that the Roman Church would apply centuries later to Mary, the mother of Jesus. In Egypt, Isis was the mother and Horus was the child. In Mesopotamia it was Ishtar and Tammuz.

.....

So, instead of seeking to put Christ back into Christmas, we must acknowledge that He was never there in the first place! Christmas never was Christian! True Christians will give it back to the pagans, to whom it has belonged all along! Instead of borrowing from the world around us, we ought to take our religious customs and practices directly from the Bible. Then we will be worshiping our Creator in spirit and truth, just as He teaches us to do (John 4:24).

http://www.tomorrowsworld.org/magazines/2004/november-december/is-christmas-christian

You do know that christmas is a tradition that has absolutely nothing to do with christianity don't you?

No. As I said

I couldn't care less about religion

I did think Christianity involved a bit of Christ's life and I'm sure being born is probably there somewhere. Please enlighten.

You never know, they might shave their heads and chant Harri Krishna for the rest of their lives. It will be their choice. Get over it.

It's unlikely they'll freely choose, as they'll have been repeatedly told that the unbelievable things Christians believe are fine and normal whereas other religions' unbelievable tenets will seem very odd.

It could be argued that official religion in schools, on TV, on the radio, in civic life undermines children's free choice later in life.

I did think Christianity involved a bit of Christ's life and I'm sure being born is probably there somewhere. Please enlighten.

Read the link above.

How many people actually believe Jesus was born of a virgin in a stable and literally resurrected?

Pretty much nobody I'd say. I'd also include a few RC priests and Christian Brothers I met over the years in that number.

I couldn't care less about religion

Then why did you assume that Atheists would not be taking those days as holidays?

OP, I assume you won't be taking Good Friday and Easter Monday off from work as these are religious holidays.

They're also known as Bank Holidays. Does that mean you can only take the day off if

a) You work in a bank?
b) You are a Christian?
c) You are a Christian Banker?

🙄

d) It's a day off, and im not complaining

I'm always intrigued that the anti-religion brigade are SO touchy when challenged.

All I said was that going to church was not a bad thing to try, in the same way that seeing a service at a mosque is not a bad thing to try.

It won't make you a fundamentalist terrorist of the Irish or Muslim variety. Militant refusal to apparently even consider such a possibility is just as unhealthy, in my view.

Which some of you think is the stupidest thing you've read on here, apparently. You need to check out a few more threads! 😆

Religion can be a great thing for people-

"People whose lives are barren and insecure seem to show a greater willingness to obey than people who are self-sufficient and self-confident. To the frustrated, freedom from responsibility is more attractive than freedom from restraint. They are eager to barter their independence for relief of the burdens of willing, deciding and being responsible for inevitable failure. They willingly abdicate the directing of their lives to those who want to plan, command and shoulder all responsibility." - Eric Hoffer

If this supposed indoctrination was successful children would REALLY believe in their religion. It would be like the 17th century or the crusades all over again and you wouldn't be able to move for religious strife.

I don't think there is some evil plot to turn all state school pupils into Christian religious zealots.

Although nativity plays, Easter baskets and a bit of hymn singing seems good at producing atheists with really serious issues.

What do you mean by religious education? I'm not suggesting kids in state funded schools shouldn't learn about religion, that would be ridiculous.

Bienvenue en France 😉

I think it's absolutely nuts too FWIW. On one hand you have muslim raised kids on council estates who blame everything bad in their lives on occidental decadence and the jews, whilst on the other, you have the bourgeois catholics (who blame the state of modern society on muslims and jews) sending their kids into private schools with cateschism from 3 years of age.

At least with general religious education you can teach tolerance, which should be the aim of it, rather than moralising.

At least with general religious education you can teach tolerance, which should be the aim of it, rather than moralising.

He speaketh the truth.

a bit of hymn singing

Hymns were never that shrill when I was at school. Are the CofE ones worse? 🙂

I'm always intrigued that the anti-religion brigade are SO touchy when challenged.
All I said was that going to church was not a bad thing to try, in the same way that seeing a service at a mosque is not a bad thing to try.

No, what you said was that not wanting kids to be indoctrinated in schools is just as bad as extreme religious fundamentalism. Which is absurd nonsense.

It's not about being touchy - it's about pulling people up on it when they come out with absurd nonsense.

I bet they don't actually go and take part in a service at a mosque or synagogue though do they?

Yes.

I was on a school trip yesterday with a class of YR3 kids.

We went to the local Hindu Temple and the kids took part in a service that was part of the Hindi New Year Festival.

Fire, Chanting, Offerings to God's Incarnations, all the stuff atheists get wound up about really, it was great 😉

Is a hindu temple a mosque or synagogue then? 😉

Sounds good as a cultural learning experience. Going to one thing occasionally isn't the same as repeated worship of one faith though.

And we never did anything like that at our school.

Gay marriage they dont seem keen to tolerate that in our society and needs special rules so they can treat them differently from every other body.

Don't take my attitudes to faith schools as approval for every view in religions, I'm not religious.

I just don't happen to think, from my experience that it is a bad thing to have the options there for people, nor do I believe indoctrination happens at these schools. As I mentioned that happens in the home.

If this supposed indoctrination was successful children would REALLY believe in their religion. It would be like the 17th century or the crusades all over again and you wouldn't be able to move for religious strife.

Objective RE is a good idea but afaik it's done with a very CoE spin on it at most UK schools.

but no way should it be state funded or happen at normal state schools.

On this point, why not, don't religious people pay taxes?

MoreCashThanDash - Member

All I said was that going to church was not a bad thing to try, in the same way that seeing a service at a mosque is not a bad thing to try.

I'd agree with that but that's not what's on offer- we're talking about christian observance as part of the school day, not an occasional trial visit but an ongoing and constant presence. And no attempt (or possibility) to do the same for an assortment of faiths. So it is about one faith over others.

On this point, why not, don't religious people pay taxes?

People, or religious institutions?

OP, I assume you won't be taking Good Friday and Easter Monday off from work as these are religious holidays.

Funnily enough, they are not bank holidays for my employer so I will be working

we're talking about christian observance as part of the school day, not an occasional trial visit but an ongoing and constant presence. And no attempt (or possibility) to do the same for an assortment of faiths. So it is about one faith over others.

..which a nice full circle to my original point, the fact that Christianity seems to be the 'default' position and is not taught in the same way as other religious which seem to be more about 'look what other people believe in, whilst the rest of us are Christians.'

All I said was that going to church was not a bad thing to try, in the same way that seeing a service at a mosque is not a bad thing to try.

I would be against my children wasting their time with any crackpot idea never mind all of them.

we're talking about christian observance as part of the school day, not an occasional trial visit but an ongoing and constant presence. And no attempt (or possibility) to do the same for an assortment of faiths. So it is about one faith over others.

This.

"Today, children, we're going to visit a mosque. That's a bit like a church, but for people who are wrong. Not like a proper church, where the vicar who does an assembly every week works."

I would be against my children wasting their time with any crackpot idea never mind all of them.

like it or not, religion dominates the many aspects of today's world. To be naive about religious beliefs altogether would be a bad thing and led to less tolerance and understanding

[i]which a nice full circle to my original point, the fact that Christianity seems to be the 'default' position and is not taught in the same way as other religious which seem to be more about 'look what other people believe in, whilst the rest of us are Christians.' [/i]

True at your local school possibly because most pupils come from a Christian background (not necessarily "practicing" though). If the school was say, 40% Hindu 40% Muslim it may take a different approach.

[i]This.

"Today, children, we're going to visit a mosque. That's a bit like a church, but for people who are wrong. Not like a proper church, where the vicar who does an assembly every week works."
[/i]

Or this

"Jews, Muslims and Christians all believe in the same God. They just choose to do it in different ways. Today we will look at some of the ways they are the same. We will start with the story of Adam and Eve."

Or this

"Jews, Muslims and Christians all believe in the same God. They just choose to do it in different ways. Today we will look at some of the ways they are the same. We will start with the story of Adam and Eve."

This is exactly how religion should be taught in school, as comparative religion. It should happen in specific lessons, and not take the form of worship at all.

"Christians believe that..."
"Muslims believe that..."
"Jews believe that..."
"Hindus believe that..."
"Sikhs believe that..."

Of course, then you get into the differences between different sects of the same religion, so it's actually impossible to teach it clearly.

"Christians believe that marriage is between one man and a woman. Apart from the ones who don't."

Is a hindu temple a mosque or synagogue then?

No, but the mosque and the synagogue trips are already booked in.

I would be against my children wasting their time with any crackpot idea never mind all of them.

The priest gave a talk to the kids after the worship at the Hindu Temple yesterday.

One of the main points of the talk was that there is good in everybody, no matter what faith/religion (or lack of either.)
And that the kids should try hard to nurture the good in themselves and look for the good in others.

What an awful "crackpot idea" to fill the heads of 8 year olds with eh 🙄

"OP, I assume you won't be taking Good Friday and Easter Monday off from work as these are religious holidays."

why do Christians in this country take Christmas day off given that Jesus appears to have been born on January the 4th? or in June depending which way you work it out .

Easter is even more questionable but at least the chocolate eggs and bunnies get us back to it's real meaning .

The Brick spoke wisdom on page 2.

One of the main points of the talk was that there is good in everybody, no matter what faith/religion (or lack of either.)
And that the kids should try hard to nurture the good in themselves and look for the good in others.

What an awful "crackpot idea" to fill the heads of 8 year olds with eh

That's brill.

When do you visit the evangelical baptist church who tell them they'll burn for all eternity unless they accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal saviour?

One of the main points of the talk was that there is good in everybody

[img] [/img]

Priest Fail

My OH is an RE (or BPE as she calls it) teacher. She makes a big effort not to favour Christianity. That may be because she's got Buddhist leanings and doesn't really have time for any of the 'big' religions. She's had instances of parents storming into school demanding that she doesn't show little Billy how to tie a turban "Because we don't believe in that foreign sh*t" and other such bigoted nonsense.

OP, I assume you won't be taking Good Friday and Easter Monday off from work as these are religious holidays.

It is a seasonal holiday, which Christianity has tried to take as it's own, there is no evidence for when biblical events took place in a calendar year (or where it does exist it isn't when the religion observes the date). The church at some point in the past choice those dates because that is when festivals already existed.

in modern terms it is a bank holiday that coincides with a religious observance.

Same applies to morality (and did someone claim law?) The church didn't create rules used by society to all get along, they just tried to claim them, it is nothing but political spin. And it is no surprise that over the last century as the power of the church has wained equality has moved forward despite the fight against it by the church.

When do you visit the evangelical baptist church who tell them they'll burn for all eternity unless they accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal saviour?

Are you just going to pick something that isn't going to happen to argue against my point for something that did ?

My OH is an RE (or BPE as she calls it) teacher. She makes a big effort not to favour Christianity. That may be because she's got Buddhist leanings and doesn't really have time for any of the 'big' religions.

I like the cut of her jib

One of the main points of the talk was that there is good in everybody, no matter what faith/religion (or lack of either.)
And that the kids should try hard to nurture the good in themselves and look for the good in others.
What an awful "crackpot idea" to fill the heads of 8 year olds with eh

Are only religious people qualified to say stuff like that?

but no way should it be state funded or happen at normal state schools.
On this point, why not, don't religious people pay taxes?

Why does paying taxes mean we should be indoctrinating children? Paedophiles pay taxes too - should we accommodate their wishes?

Priest Fail

🙄

Are only religious people qualified to say stuff like that?

Did I hint anywhere that I thought that ?

No. Obviously I didn't.

Did I hint anywhere that I thought that ?

No. Obviously I didn't.

So why did you mention it? You were clearly implying - 'isn't it great that he taught them this lovely positive message.'

My point is why do we seem to feel this is exclusively the realm of the religious?

True at your local school possibly because most pupils come from a Christian background (not necessarily "practicing" though)

So why did you mention it?

Because it was suggested that taking kids and educating them about other religions was "filling their heads with crackpot ideas"

I was demonstrating that wasn't the case.

If you just read what I wrote, and what I quoted and replied to, it's not that hard to figure out.

I would be against my children wasting their time with any crackpot idea never mind all of them.

Hahah +1

Because it was suggested that taking kids and educating them about other religions was "filling their heads with "crackpot ideas"

So you've cherry-picked a nice positive thing that a religious person said and that somehow proves that religions aren't full of crackpot ideas?

15. Numbers 31:32

These were the spoils which remained of the plunder taken by the fighting men: 675,000 sheep, 72,000 cattle, 61,000 donkeys, and as for persons, 32,000 young women who had had no intercourse with a man.

14. Genesis 16:8And he said “Hagar, Sarai’s slave girl, where have you come from and where are you going?” She answered, “I’m running away from Sarai, my mistress.” The angel of the Lord said to her, “Go back to your mistress and submit to ill treatment at her hands.”

13. Genesis 15:9The Lord answered, “Bring me a heifer three years old, a she-goat, three years old, a ram three years old, a turtle dove and a young pigeon.”

12. Deut. 25:11When two men are fighting and the wife of one of them intervenes to drag her husband clear of his opponent, if she puts out her hand and catches hold of the man by his privates, you must cut off her hand and show her no mercy.

11. Genesis 19:8“Look, I have two daughters, virgins both of them. Let me bring them out to you and you could do what you like with them. But do nothing to these men because they have come under the shelter of my roof.”

10. Deut. 28:53Then because of the dire straits to which you will be reduced when your enemy besieges you, you will eat your own children, the flesh of your sons and daughters whom the Lord has given you

9. Judges 3:21And Ehud reached with his left hand, took the sword from his right thigh, and thrust it into his belly. And the hilt also went in after the blade, and the fat closed over the blade, for he did not pull the sword out of his belly; and the dung came out.

8. Mark 14:51A young man was following Him, wearing nothing but a linen sheet over his naked body; and they seized him. But he pulled free of the linen sheet and escaped naked.

7. Genesis 38:9Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother’s wife, he wasted his seed on the ground in order not to give offspring to his brother. But what he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD; so He took his life also.

6. Ezekiel 16:17You also took the fine jewelry I gave you, the jewelry made of my gold and silver, and you made for yourself male idols and engaged in prostitution with them.

5. Kings 2:23Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up the road, some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, “Go up, you bald head! Go up, you bald head!” So he turned around and looked at them, and pronounced a curse on them in the name of the Lord. And two female bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths.

4. Deut. 23:1No man whose testicles have been crushed or whose organ has been cut off may become a member of the Assembly of God.

3. Leviticus 24:16Whoever utters the name of the Lord must be put to death. The whole community must stone him, whether alien or native. If he utters the name, he must be put to death.

2. Exodus 4:24And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the Lord met him, and sought to kill him. Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, “Surely a bloody husband art thou to me”.

1. Ezekiel 23:19Yet she increased her prostitution, remembering the days of her youth when she engaged in prostitution in the land of Egypt. She lusted after their genitals – as large as those of donkeys, and their seminal emission was as strong as that of stallions.

And yes, I'm cherry-picking too - but at least I can recognise that.

My point is why do we seem to feel this is exclusively the realm of the religious?

Seriously? Who TF says this then? Poster tells of a nice thing that religious person says (and a secular message at that) and you're trying to twist it into some kind of claim that only religious people claim they can do that? A bit of a stretch now isn't it?

Seriously? Who TF says this then?

Christians?

Without morality, there is no basis for reconciliation, and without God, there is no basis for morality.

http://www.christianity.co.nz/moralit2.htm

or

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/can-we-be-good-without-god

One of the main points of the talk was that there is good in everybody, no matter what faith/religion (or lack of either.)

Theres more good is proper Christians though. 😆 The bit of good in everybody else is that bit you have to drag out when converting the them - in these people there is a bit of good morally wholesome christianity waiting to get out.

Seriously? Who TF says this then?

Well one of the first posts on the thread said this.

We are a country that has a Christian history and tradition - our laws, contracts, values and morals are all rooted in that history

It seams a fairly common (if mistaken) view that morality and "niceness" comes from religion and without it we would be a world of murdering rapists and monsters.

[i]back to the default religion bit? If you're not practising then shirley you're not whatever you (or your local church/school) try to identify yourself as. Can you identify yourself as a cyclist is you haven't ridden a bike since you were a kid? [/i]

Difference between Christianity as a belief in an old geezer in the sky and christianity as a set of cultural and moral norms that are unconsciously inherited from the social background.

Whether we believe in the old geezer or not, most of us are influenced by a shared christian cultural heritage. So if we do take part in any of that worship stuff Easter baskets and nativity plays will be the default.

Whether we believe in the old geezer or not, most of us are influenced by a shared christian cultural heritage.

Morally speaking, I'm not. At all.

So you've cherry-picked a nice positive thing that a religious person said and that somehow proves that religions aren't full of crackpot ideas?

I just gave an example of something that happened to me yesterday.

I thought this might be helpful because a lot of the talk on this thread about religious education seems to come from people with no current experience of it, talking about what used to happen 30 years ago when they were at school.

What an awful "crackpot idea" to fill the heads of 8 year olds with eh

So that selectively chosen statement that could be attributed to any non religious person is meant to illustrate what?

like it or not, religion dominates the many aspects of today's world. To be naive about religious beliefs altogether would be a bad thing and led to less tolerance and understanding

One could even say that it poisons everything! Being dismissive isnt the same as being naive.

Fairy nuff, some people say it. I've don't recall anybody saying it to me. I need to spend some more time listening out for this kind of stuff I guess. I never hear it day to day. Even growing up and going through a Catholic education system, all my lessons on how to treat others came from my parents and teachers. The ones we paid least attention to were the fire & brimstone priests.

It seams a fairly common (if mistaken) view that morality and "niceness" comes from religion

I just disagree that it's as pervasive as some are making out...but I accept that this is a subjective view.

However...

and without it we would be a world of murdering rapists and monsters.

This seems somewhat of a stretch again (apologies if you're exaggerating for effect).

I was demonstrating that wasn't the case.

Playing fast and loose with the term "demonstrating" arent you?

So that selectively chosen statement that could be attributed to any non religious person is meant to illustrate what?

It wasn't a "selectively chosen statement" it was the main message of the talk given to the kids (as I said)

And it was to illustrate exactly what I said when I was asked last time.

Playing fast and loose with the term "demonstrating" arent you?

Sorry, I forgot. This is STW.

Guesswork and stuff that used to happen 30 years ago is better than recent personal experience, and stuff that actually happens, now.

Leviticus 24:16Whoever utters the name of the Lord must be put to death. The whole community must stone him, whether alien or native. If he utters the name, he must be put to death.

Video evidence of this exists...

When do you visit the evangelical baptist church who tell them they'll burn for all eternity unless they accept the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal saviour?

Are you just going to pick something that isn't going to happen to argue against my point for something that did ?

I'm giving an example of something said by (some) religious people which may upset children.

I'm all for schools visiting various places of worship, and for learning about the beliefs of different faiths. It's worship of one faith as a part of the normal everyday school day with which I have a problem.

Guesswork and stuff that used to happen 30 years ago is better than recent personal experience, and stuff that actually happens, now.

No, it's just that irrelevant cherry-picked anecdote isn't a substitute for a reasoned argument.

[i]What an awful "crackpot idea" to fill the heads of 8 year olds with eh

So that selectively chosen statement that could be attributed to any non religious person is meant to illustrate what?
[/i]

To me it demonstrates that someone who has quite possibly spent a lifetime studying theology can come out with a view of humanity that is acceptable to a non believer.

Also said person is possibly well qualified to express this view. (they are a professional thinker, as it were).

Also said person is probably a respected member of their community and is therefore probably more likely to be listened to than say, an angry internet atheist.

To me it demonstrates that someone who has quite possibly spent a lifetime studying theology can come out with a view of humanity that is acceptable to a non believer.
Also said person is possibly well qualified to express this view. (they are a professional thinker, as it were).
Also said person is probably a respected member of their community and is therefore probably more likely to be listened to than say, an angry internet atheist.

All correct.

And he is also a Senior Lecturer in Mechanical Engineering.

Very interesting fella.

No, it's just that irrelevant cherry-picked anecdote isn't a substitute for a reasoned argument.

How exactly is it "irrelevant"

The discussion is about how religion is taught in schools.

Yesterday I was on a school trip designed to teach children about religion.

My definition of "relevant" must be different to yours somehow ??

Also said person is possibly well qualified to express this view. (they are a professional thinker, as it were).

A philosopher could be described as a professional thinker, maybe many branches of science could be described as professional thinkers, but a theologian is a professional believer.

Also said person is probably a respected member of their community and is therefore probably more likely to be listened to than say, an angry internet atheist.

Why would being religious automatically make someone respected, it is that kind of thought process that is damaging to fairness in society, but I can see why the religious would want to hold onto such an outdated notion, people should be respected for their actions not because of any arbitrary position they hold.

How exactly is it "irrelevant"

The discussion is about how religion is taught in schools.

Yesterday I was on a school trip designed to teach children about religion.

My definition of "relevant" must be different to yours somehow ??

You were using it as a retort to the idea that religions are 'full of crackpot ideas' - the fact that you had an anecdote about some positive stuff said by one religious person doesn't alter the fact that religions [i]are[/i] full of crackpot ideas, as I demonstrated with quotes from the bible.

So yes, it's irrelevant - because as far as I'm aware no-one was arguing that every single thing about religion is wrong/stupid. You're moving the goalposts now (as opposed to earlier which was more of a straw man).

Why would being religious automatically make someone respected, it is that kind of thought process that is damaging to fairness in society, but I can see why the religious would want to hold onto such an outdated notion, people should be respected for their actions not because of any arbitrary position they hold.

Totally agree.

As it happens, the man in question fits the bill in both cases anyway 😉

You were using it as a retort to the idea that religions are 'full of crackpot ideas'

What I was actually doing, was using it to demonstrate that taking kids to be educated about other religions isn't about trying to get them to believe in that religion.

It's about showing them differences in society and beliefs, and that not all people are the same in what they believe.

And that those differences are ok.

(I think a lot of people here could do with some of that to be honest)

Except that you were specifically replying to someone saying 'religions are full of crackpot ideas' by saying 'no they're not, look what this guy said yesterday'.

You're massively shifting the goalposts now.

It's about showing them differences in society and beliefs, and that not all people are the same in what they believe.

And that those differences are ok.

(I think a lot of people here could do with some of that to be honest)

That sounds great and I'm all for educating people about religion as a cultural/historical thing - but what you and a lot of other people could also do with is some clear, rational thinking and logic - not confusing anecdote with evidence.

Educating people about different religions isn't the same as indoctrinating them into a particular religion - I thought that would be fairly obvious.

Except that you were specifically replying to someone saying 'religions are full of crackpot ideas' by saying 'no they're not, look what this guy said yesterday'

No i wasn't.

I was replying to.....

I would be against my children wasting their time with any crackpot idea never mind all of them.

Which was about kids going to different places of worship and learning about them.

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but what you and a lot of other people could also do with is some clear, rational thinking and logic - not confusing anecdote with evidence.

My personal experience and ongoing involvement in this exact area certainly trumps any "evidence" I've seen posted in this thread.

By the way, I'm not religious in any way.
I'm not a parent trying to get kids into a "good school"
Or a teacher with anything to prove.

I'm just a "bystander" if you like.

(With a theology A Level 😉 )

To me it demonstrates that someone who has quite possibly spent a lifetime studying theology can come out with a view of humanity that is acceptable to a non believer.
Also said person is possibly well qualified to express this view. (they are a professional thinker, as it were).
Also said person is probably a respected member of their community and is therefore probably more likely to be listened to than say, an angry internet atheist.

All correct.

And he is also a Senior Lecturer in Mechanical Engineering.

Very interesting fella.

Surely his lifelong study of fairy stories trumps all of his other qualifications? in fact why bring it up?
I suppose it shows he didnt waste all of his study time

My personal experience and ongoing involvement in this exact area certainly trumps any "evidence" I've seen posted in this thread.

By the way, I'm not religious in any way.
I'm not a parent trying to get kids into a "good school"
Or a teacher with anything to prove.

I'm just a "bystander" if you like.

(With a theology A Level )

Why are you being coy about what your actual experience/involvement is? Why do you go on school trips if you're not a teacher or even a parent? 😕