[Closed] Refusing an offer of fixed penalty

Were you exceeding the speed limit?

Pay the fine.

Life's too short and they don't care.

Were you exceeding the speed limit?

Pay the fine.

Life’s too short and they don’t care.

Having seen speeding threads on here before I was of course fully expecting such responses but that was some seriously quick work.

No, I'm not going to pay the fine. I have very good grounds for challenging it and there are already precedents for this kind of challenge.

But were you speeding?

Was just trying to save you time.

Court it is then. Lawyer up. It'll cost you more than £100 and 3 points (or speed awareness course).

Just out of interest - what are the mitigating circumstances. If you want more than cursory "pay the fine" on a forum you're going to have to pony up the details. 🙂

If you want more than cursory “pay the fine” on a forum you’re going to have to pony up the details.

Indeed - mainly because I'm a bit bored and want some gossip!

Best of luck...

Just out of interest – what are the mitigating circumstances. If you want more than cursory “pay the fine” on a forum you’re going to have to pony up the details

Fair enough, and in the interest of heading off much judging... Panel van converted to camper but not reclassified by DVLA. We contacted the DVLA when we did the conversion and they said getting the body type reclassified was not what determined the speed limit but the Road Traffic Act definition of a 'motor caravan' which reads:"a motor vehicle which is constructed or adapted for the carriage of passengers and their effects and which contains, as permanently installed equipment, the facilities which are reasonably necessary for enabling the vehicle to provide mobile living accommodation for its users". They further said that if our vehicle met that description then campervan speed limits applied. So we have in good faith been driving the vehicle at the speed limits for campervans.

Oh, now suddenly actually interested (vested interest)! And genuinely, good luck!

Is that really a defence that’s worked for others? Seems flimsy as anything given your V5 will clearly show that it’s a van

It was quite some time ago granted, but DVLA quite happily reclassified our LDV lwb hi-top minibus to a camper when we sent evidence of the work done. IIRC we had to show it had a bed, table, sink, stove.

Is that really a defence that’s worked for others?

I got a fine cancelled just by evidencing that my van was for private use.

I called the number on the small print on the letter and spoke to a nice lady (Cumbria police).

Seems flimsy as anything given your V5 will clearly show that it’s a van

If you look at what the DVLA say it isn't anything to do with what it says on the V5 and a bit of googling reveals that it has been successfully challenged in court.

It was quite some time ago granted, but DVLA quite happily reclassified our LDV lwb hi-top

They did with our last van too but the criteria have changed and lots of things that most people would call a campervan don't qualify.

I got a fine cancelled just by evidencing that my van was for private use.

I called the number on the small print on the letter and spoke to a nice lady (Cumbria police).

Cheers for that. No number on my letter but I'll see if I can find one for them.

I am bored enough to check the V5 for my campervan and it states 'Motor Caravan' as the body type, thus subject to higher speed limits on some roads.
I thought that to qualify as a Campervan the vehicle had to not only have the required features by to have been reclassified by the DVLA, thus recorded as such on the V5.
As others have suggested, more reaearch may be appropriate before missing the Fixed Penalty.

DVLA sent us confirmation that our conversion had all of the required features internally but weren't changing classification to motorhome it's now van with windows. The external features required being an awning, decals and windows, it's got awning and decals and the new classification acknowledges the windows, go figure.

But yes we have the same guidance and would be challenging any speeding based on the same DVLA communication. I have a copy in the glove box.

a bit of googling reveals that it has been successfully challenged in court.

Do you want to go to court? - Might be quicker and easier to pay the £100 then write to the DVLA remind them of their advice (assuming you have that as written advice)  and ask them to refund your £100

🙂

If you look at what the DVLA say it isn’t anything to do with what it says on the V5

How many more times do you want to do this?

But yes we have the same guidance and would be challenging any speeding based on the same DVLA communication. I have a copy in the glove box.

Me too but it was a camera!

awning, decals and windows

I’d always thought it was kitchen, table and bed. Awning seems like an optional thing (freestanding tent awnings make a lot of sense) and WTF are decals necessary? (Though that does explain all the weird graphics common on campers)

But the pay (with a note along the lines of “not accepting that this ticket was issued correctly” and reclaim is likely to be cheaper and less time consuming on your part.

Isn't it time that the law regarding van speed limits is reviewed? Times have changed since all vans were workhorses used for lugging heavy weights around. So many vans now are purely leisure vehicles and have all the same driver aids as cars.

Is the issue that a van has the potential based on size?

Decals?
A sticker on the back tbat says ' please dont send me n i p, because im a camper and can do 70mph on a dually' or any other sticket, one life van life,
Not at all vague in any way

Ok, hang on, do they mean a speed roundal?

Isn’t it time that the law regarding van speed limits is reviewed?

It's really inconsistent and confusing both in terms of how people use vans today and what types of vehicle are lumped together.

But the pay (with a note along the lines of “not accepting that this ticket was issued correctly” and reclaim is likely to be cheaper and less time consuming on your part.

It says on the letter that the offer is final and that no discussions of review of the case can take place after acceptance.

The external features required being an awning, decals and windows,

I think I've seen the 'decals' thing stated as 'lifestyle decals' but I'd be really quite curious as to how that can be defined.Whats the basis in law to differentiate between "One Life Live It" and 'Maccruskeen's Heavy Haulage" and say one of those things is a lifestyle and the other isn't.

So many vans now are purely leisure vehicles and have all the same driver aids as cars.

those aids aren't compulsory though - in either cars or vans - so they're not a basis that you can classify a vehicle by

Is the issue that a van has the potential based on size?

Not really a 17 seater minibus would be the same size and weight  the largest and heaviest vans but is regulated by different speed limits with Minibuses able to drive faster - and coach built motor homes can be bigger still. Regardless of the fact that an accident at speed in a vehicle full of live cargo would be immesureably more tragic than a van full of cardboard boxes. Similarly coaches full of un-secured living loads are able to drive at higher speeds than trucks (who's drivers would be prosecuted if their load wasn't strapped down securely) of the same size and weight.

I've read all this advice about how you can decide your own speed limits based on your understanding of what constitutes a camper van contrary to what it says on the V5, and I reckon its complete BS. Do you actually know anyone who has successfully avoided a fine based on this challenge, or is this too just an internet assertion?

I was going to say I'll eat my hat if I'm wrong, but I'll go one better than that. If you can show indisputable proof this defence worked, £50 to a charity of your choice Spin.

Edit - As a van driver I do agree though that van speed limits should be the same as cars because they are largely as safe these days, upto 3.5 tonnes anyway.

I was going to say I’ll eat my hat if I’m wrong, but I’ll go one better than that. If you can show indisputable proof this defence worked, £50 to a charity of your choice Spin.

Have a look at this https://www.jerbacampervans.co.uk/campervan-panel-van-speed-limits-update/

If you decide it's 'indisputable proof' I'm sure Dundonnell Mountain Rescue Team would appreciate your £50 https://www.dmrt.org.uk/how-to-donate-to-dmrt.html

So many vans now are purely leisure vehicles and have all the same driver aids as cars.

most vans do not have all the same driver aids, they also handle much worse, have worse braking distances, and weigh a lot more causing a lot more damage to whatever they plow into. I'd prefer they slow them down more.

Slighty similar, we have an N1 crew van that meets the criteria for dual purpose vehicle (which are allowed car speed limits).

At the time of purchase I reviewed this with the manufacturer, dvla and dvsa. The outcome (which I have in writing) was:
Dvla do not put DPV or similar on the V5. They do document the number of seats (6) so there is a clue for the Police that it might be a DPV. So I can't be accused of having an incorrect V5.

Dvsa say it doesn't need to have DPV on the V5 - just that it meets the requirements of DPV for it to count. But as always with dvsa, they caveat that is just their interpretation and it should be confirmed in a court of law.

We don't speed and have always had clean licences - so if we got a ticket for 57 in a 60 limit then it would get challenged as we aren't breaking the law.

most vans do not have all the same driver aids, they also handle much worse, have worse braking distances, and weigh a lot more causing a lot more damage to whatever they plow into. I’d prefer they slow them down more.

But a campervan will also weigh the same with the same handling and braking distances

If you decide it’s ‘indisputable proof’ I’m sure Dundonnell Mountain Rescue Team would appreciate your £50

No, reading an internet blog of a secondhand story definitely isn't proof, this is exactly the kind of 'research' I don't subscribe to. It'll have to be a photo of your discharge letter or whatever, with personal details redacted of course, when you win.

MRT a fine choice though, I kind of hope you'll prove me wrong.

Not really a 17 seater minibus would be the same size and weight the largest and heaviest vans but is regulated by different speed limits with Minibuses able to drive faster

What is your understanding of the speedlimits of a minibus. More than that most 17 seat mini busses are driven grossly overloaded.

DVLA basically aren't issuing V5 variations for conversions any more.

We went through and identified every requirement inside and out set them all out in the application document, had them all accepted and still got refused. It appears to come down to either they expect decals on the back as well as the sides or they expect opening (caravan style windows) neither of which are stated in their requirement docs. In the letter accompanying the V5 change to van with windows they state that V5 description is how it would be recognised not how it is classified for the purposes of legislation. You'd need to challenge any speeding prosecution with a comprehensive body of evidence that you comply with requirements. Where it becomes difficult is for things like ULEZ which is V5 based.

Following with interest

This might help, the last bit
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/clarification_on_the_definition

It is a weird aspect to the law that a van can only do 60 legally on a dual carriageway, which is actively enforced by the police, but is able to do 80-90 with complete impunity on a motorway.

This might help, the last bit
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/clarification_on_the_definition/blockquote >

That's interesting, thank you. Further clarification/confirmation of what I thought!

 

How heavy is your van?

And, frankly, you'll be going to court over it anyway. So weigh up whether you want to fight it this time or not.

The trick will be to get the DVLA to change what it is on your documents - so it doesn't happen again.

Edit:
Basically: https://www.parkers.co.uk/vans-pickups/advice/campervan-speed-limits/

Wild wild west.

Please do come back and tell us what the judge said when he laughed at you 😉

To be fair. If you get a response from plod it may actually be to drop it.

At which point, brill.

But I'd be amazed.

Spin
Free Member
This might help, the last bit
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/clarification_on_the_definitionThat’s interesting, thank you. Further clarification/confirmation of what I thought!

It's also a formal Freedom of Information request, with the associated reference, so very useful as it's exactly what you were asking, without having to wait 3 or 4 months for the FOI to get worked!

Sounds to me like someone who has been failed by DVLA's opaque rules and refusal to issue V5 amendments needs to request judicial review of their decision processes.

I'm considering it at the moment.

I got my van through as a conversion just before they started tightening up but from what I understand they want something that is a campervan to be 100% recognised as a campervan by the authorities hence decals windows etc.

I shall watch this with interest 👀👀
Please do report back how you get on.

I drive a campervan that is classified as a van with windows, I haven’t had to test out the speed limit theory yet.

Before you start you are under 3.05T unladen aren’t you?

Before you start you are under 3.05T unladen aren’t you?

Yes!

Just checking 👍

Spin - you can try writing to the camera enforcement unit and explaining - if they think they’ve wrongly identified the limit that applies to your vehicle they will take no further action. However I’d say that’s far from guaranteed.

Otherwise you don’t need to do anything to “challenge” it. You simply do nothing and the case will most likely be referred the PF. You may get another offer to pay £100/3pts from the fiscal, or they may proceed directly to court. Ordinarily they have six months to start proceedings in court, however for most summary cases that is extended to 12 months due to the covid backlog. They frequently take most of the six months - then you will get a citation with the option to plead guilty (or not) by letter. If you plead not guilty an intermediate diet and trial diet will be set, probably about 6 months in the future based on current backlogs. Don’t be surprised if the trial gets put adjourned so could be two years from now - I say this not to encourage you to plead guilty but to suggest it really is worth the effort asking the camera unit to consider it; and to make sure you gather any evidence about the nature of the van etc - E.g. you might want to take photographs, video, have someone else witness you do that etc - especially if you might sell or modify the van at all.

Ordinarily I’d say someone who is able to have a sensible and civil argument here would be able to defend themselves, but I’d consider if you really want to win on a technical argument like this at least talking to a solicitor used to dealing road traffic in that local court, in fact if they get the point they may be able to have a chat with the fiscal and get the case dropped at the first or intermediate diet.

The good news in Scotland is you won’t have to pay prosecution costs if found guilty, the bad news is if found not guilty you don’t get any contribution to your costs.

www.safetycameras.gov.scot/contact

Well, this is the damnedest thing I've read in days.

So it doesn't matter whether you're hauling people or concrete, the speed limit is determined by what your van looks like? Swap a couple of steel panels out for glass and whack a couple of 'Mystery Machine' stickers on the sides and hey, in the eye of the law it's suddenly perfectly safe to drive 10mph faster?

Spin, I admire your optimism and I genuinely hope this works out for you. But I do rather worry that it's the 'having right of way' argument on a cycle when you've just been left-hooked. It's crackers that the DVLA won't reclassify your vehicle because surely that then would be demonstrable proof, "sorry m'lud but I think you'll find that it says on the V5..." What's the point of even having a classification if it's legally meaningless?

Unless you have a fixed high top roof, pop top doesn’t count, then you have pretty much zero chance of getting it re classified to camper van on the V5.

My transporter (factory combi) is classed as an M1 on the V5, so car speed limits apply. Most newer combi vans are now N1 even with 6 seats.

Thanks for that poly. I found contact details for the camera enforcement unit and emailed them and I'll follow it up with a letter with photographic evidence which was plan A anyway.

most vans do not have all the same driver aids, they also handle much worse, have worse braking distances, and weigh a lot more causing a lot more damage to whatever they plow into. I’d prefer they slow them down more.

Oh, so speed limits should be determined by the ability to slow down and/or their weight?

If that's the case then either there are a lot of cars on the road that need lower limits or those of us with 'quality' cars ought to be allowed higher limits...

And electric cars, since they often weigh more than 'normal' cars (our friends' Audi is 2.7 tonne!), are they getting lower limits?

As for the OP, if the fixed penalty includes Points then I'd also fight it, but if it's just the cash - is it really worth it, and what's the chance of actually winning?

@intheborders - all fixed penalties in Scotland for speeding are £100 & 3 penalty points.

@spin - I should have said - I assume as you have a COoFP you have already complied with the S172 requirement to name the driver? If not you MUST do this within 28 days of the notice - otherwise you end up with far bigger problem. usually the NIP/S172 request are one letter then the COoFP comes a week or two later - but some English forces do combine the S172 and an offer in one. AFAIK police Scotland don’t do that but if they think it’s a way to save the cost of a stamp they might have started!

As for the OP, if the fixed penalty includes Points then I’d also fight it, but if it’s just the cash – is it really worth it, and what’s the chance of actually winning?

Not just points, but also notifying insurer and probably increased premium. If it were me, I'd also feel I had drive to the lower speed limit in future if I'd accepted it.

No, reading an internet blog of a secondhand story definitely isn’t proof, this is exactly the kind of ‘research’ I don’t subscribe to. It’ll have to be a photo of your discharge letter or whatever, with personal details redacted of course, when you win.

For most ways for this to end there is no written proof sent to spin - he could jump through hoops to get it but most ways of it being dropped don’t result in a letter.

So it doesn’t matter whether you’re hauling people or concrete, the speed limit is determined by what your van looks like?

No there is a set of criteria inside and out for the conversion to meet but even where this is demonstrated DVLA are classifying as van with windows. They state this is how it appears externally and that is the purpose of the V5 classification. They have taken what should be a factual assessment of meeting criteria and added an arbitrary opinion to that which is not set out in their evaluation criteria.

Their view is that V5 classification is not to reflect what the vehicle is and that speed limits are not based on V5 classification. So they are leaving it to individuals effectively to assess whether they feel that they meet the requirements.

but is able to do 80-90 with complete impunity on a motorway.

Because dual carriageways can be very different to motorways and decidedly more dangerous?

Because dual carriageways can be very different to motorways and decidedly more dangerous?

but alot safer if you have a sink, table, high top and stickers on the outside?

ive been reading about the rules and it is so grey. So with the DVLA rules, you can have a 'dual purpose' vehicle as they put it, that meets all the criteria, but still is subject to the lower speeds because it is a van with windows. So basically, unless you have a factory conversion, all campervans must stick to the lower limits.

@intheborders – all fixed penalties in Scotland for speeding are £100 & 3 penalty points.

I only asked as the OP hadn't mentioned Points, and these for me are the worse bit.

Not just points, but also notifying insurer and probably increased premium. If it were me, I’d also feel I had drive to the lower speed limit in future if I’d accepted it.

3 points shouldn't impact the OP, but the last point is something I hadn't considered - definitely worth appealing IMO.

if you have a sink, table, high top and stickers on the outside?

Speed limits won't be your problem with that lot on the outside

I have also heard that you can argue the toss if you can demonstrate your van is being used as a camper, even if the DVLA wont reclassify it (which they wont do anymore)

I think technically, your speed limit on a motorhome varies depending on what cargo is on board.

Motorhoming: 70.
Carrying goods for exhibition or sale: 60.

The classification system isnt fit for purpose.

I bought a minibus, 70mph upper limit, but a 62mph speed limiter (go figure)
Pulled some seats and made it into a 7 seater day van.
DVLA reclassed it as "Private Light Goods" So i can have the limiter removed (which ive done)
so now i THINK i can drive at 70, as its Private Light Goods, not just Light Goods.
Except now im worried im gonna get pulled because from the outside (and the sticker on the sunvisor) it looks like its limited to 62mph, but will happily cruise along at 70.

Only here out of a general interest - but that FOI link is brilliantly clear, thanks for posting 🙂

FOI request is brilliantly clear in its acknowledgment of a broken system between the people who classify vehicles, the people who define transport policy and the people who enforce it. Shower of shit.

It is a weird aspect to the law that a van can only do 60 legally on a dual carriageway, which is actively enforced by the police

Well, in my experience it's hardly ever enforced by police.

But perhaps I've only got done the once as my van is a six-seater with windows, and therefore a dual-purpose vehicle.

This is a decent explainer:

https://www.parkers.co.uk/vans-pickups/advice/speed-limits/

so now i THINK i can drive at 70, as its Private Light Goods,

You can’t. Limit is still 60 unless it’s a car derived van.

I will agree however that it’s all a load of cobblers as I have 2 identical Peugeot Boxers. 1 is my work van, loaded with tools weighs 2.5t speed limit 60, the other is a camper conversion, weighs 3t on the road and is allowed to do 70 as reclassified as motor caravan.

As an aside does a 3T car have to do a different MoT? My t5 was classified as 2.95T so ok for "normal" MoT if it hadn't be reclassified by the AA then I'd have needed the next one up.
Does a Range Rover at over 3T just go through normal can MoT.

I'd agree that the speed limits need a review, it's ridiculous that a 'camper' with a pile of nailed together plywood, a gas bottle etc can rattle down the road at 70mph, get them all down to 50, better for the environment too 😉

Something's just occurred to me.

If you were pinged on a dual carriageway after thinking the limit was 70 when it's 60 for your vehicle classification... what speed were you doing? An indicated 70 would likely have been an actual 65 at most and maybe lower. Being penalised for that sounds unusually harsh, are they stricter up in that Scotlandshire?

I thought it might be this lady running really really fast, and not just walking in a bus lane...
I am disapoint.. (but an interesting thread!)

DrP

If you were pinged on a dual carriageway after thinking the limit was 70 when it’s 60 for your vehicle classification… what speed were you doing? An indicated 70 would likely have been an actual 65 at most and maybe lower. Being penalised for that sounds unusually harsh, are they stricter up in that Scotlandshire?

Not every vehicle speedo under reads by 5mph. Mine is about 2mph (an indicated 70 is 68mph)

If we apply the 10% + 2 then I guess 68mph is the lowest speed you would get done for in a 60

OP write back and inform them they have issued the notice in error. They have used the best information they had available but the classification on the V5 does not determine the speed. The DVLA have said exactly this. Send photos of the van and the fine should be cancelled.

https://www.jerbacampervans.co.uk/campervan-panel-van-speed-limits-update/

1 success and a reversal for that force doesn't make a legal precedent.

This is also Scotland so a other factors could be different.

It amazes me how many people don't know of the reduced limit in vans

@Flaperon

It is a weird aspect to the law that a van can only do 60 legally on a dual carriageway, which is actively enforced by the police, but is able to do 80-90 with complete impunity on a motorway.

1. is it that weird? DCWs can have crossing traffic, right turns, cyclists, horses, busses stopping to pick up passengers, pedestrians crossing, roundabouts etc. Motorways have none of that.

2. Police Scotland will certainly actively enforce anyone doing 80-90 on a motorway (and even high 70s).

You don't need to go to court, give them a call to confirm where to send it then supply all the relevant information and photos to support and they may well cancel.

Not every vehicle speedo under reads by 5mph. Mine is about 2mph (an indicated 70 is 68mph)

That may well be so, but not many don't (IME, etc).

Under-reading is illegal and there are many variations which could throw out an otherwise accurate speedo. Increased tyre pressures because it's a sunny day? Unless a speedo is taking external measurements such as a GPS lock it's always going to over-read, the only question is by how much.

Does a Range Rover at over 3T just go through normal can MoT.

They aren't over 3T, not unladen anyways, more like 2.6T

That may well be so, but not many don’t (IME, etc).

Under-reading is illegal and there are many variations which could throw out an otherwise accurate speedo. Increased tyre pressures because it’s a sunny day? Unless a speedo is taking external measurements such as a GPS lock it’s always going to over-read, the only question is by how much.

My car (BMW) has the option of BMW speed or true speed. Looks to be about 2-3 mph difference.

The difference between my tom-tom and speedo is around 7-9mph at 70, Transit.
Also, you can't use the tom-tom as the speedo to get through an MOT when the proper one isn't working 🤣

Also police Scotland don't publish the tolerance....