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It's not for lack of thinking or reading about it either. Properly stuck.
I can't decide either. I'm English.
Find some real people to talk to, not just reading stuff on the internet - there are Yes shops all over the place, probably some No ones too somewhere.
Just go with your gut instinct.
I just don't care. I am half Scottish so I should care a bit.
Not remotely stuck. My mind was set the day the referendum was announced. No amount of manipulated statistics, other peoples opinions or endless Facebook posts (Scotroutes....I'm looking at you 😉 ) will change my mind.
Just eat your cereal.
I Think at the moment I'm not convinced that the existing is broken enough to vote yes by default, and I don't see a need for change for the sake of change. At the same time some of the arguments for independence have an appeal, but they fall far short of convincing me enough.
So I'm in the same boat - can't fully decide for one or the other outright.
Just put the kettle on for a cuppa... it'll soon come to you.
I don't have a say in the matter, but if I did, this would be taken into consideration:
as would this:
Is there a referendum? What's it about? Can't be that important, it would be all over the news.
😉
Now farage is returning. Don't know which side he thinks he's going to aid more.
Just watched Boris. Wow if he does rise to the top spending will be much more londoncentric.
You should still vote, even if you don't agree that either black or white is the answer. Tick both boxes. That way whichever side who loses can't claim an invalid mandate. (Although I am sure they will anyway.)
I was just over in India for a month.
Made me chill out about the referendum. Everyone seems to think it'll all be doom and gloom if it goes the way they don't want.
But it'll not be as bad as a huge proportion of the world's population have it.
50% of people in India don't have a toilet. I'm also pretty sure my cats eat better than 50% of the humans on this planet.
That being said, I'm a Yes voter. I think what we have is good, but that independence can make it better.
No amount of arguing will ever prove Yes is better then No or vice versa though, you just need to weigh up the balance and make a choice.
For me it comes down to political representation and the direction our society in the UK is heading. I'm not interested in the macro economic arguments about the pound etc. For me it's a much bigger thing than just money.
Heart says Yes, head says No. I can see a lot of positives but I've seen a lot of nastiness creeping into it and it's really turning me off, especially from the Yes side.
The evangelical stance from a lot of the Yes crowd does my head in too. I know this shouldn't affect my vote but it does.... 😕
We don't need another thread on this.
Can't decide either. DevoMax for me. Not an option unless you believe the promises that a No vote will give you that. Hm. I'm inherently risk averse, as I'd like to think most Scots are (it's what we're best at really, our reputation and all that)
It's not about the cash, better off, worse off in money terms - that's just numbers and so full of might bed it's not worth the paper or screen it's written on.
Will probably still be slithering on the 18th 🙂
There's evangelical stuff on the No side too swavis 😉
There's evangelical stuff on the No side too swavis
Indeed, maybe it's just the few really preachy Yes voters I've spoken to but it's almost as if they've been taken over by some religious obligation to batter me over the head with it. No thanks....
Heart says Yes, head says No. I can see a lot of positives but I've seen a lot of nastiness creeping into it and it's really turning me off, especially from the Yes side.
Sadly there's lots of nastiness from the No side too - you should see the abuse Salmond and Sturgeon get on Twitter, for instance, and then there's the death threats against Jim Sillars and Alex Salmond, the firebombing of a Yes shop a few nights ago, and the no supporter who kicked a Yes supporting woman in the stomach in Argyle Street.
What it is mostly, I think, is the sectarian idiots transferring their bile onto the referendum.
Sure, tend to agree and I can think of some very specific examples 🙂 I guess when you're trying to change things it does become evangelical as you say, fighting for the status quo doesn't have quite the same impetus somehow.
Vote Yes whats the worse that can happen? You can always come back.
Better to try and fail then never tried at all.
Being English and living in England I'm very, very bored of it now. Please just vote and then stop banging on about it. Stay or go, I couldn't GAS!
You can always come back
doubt it
Around us nearly every "No" placard has been defaced whereas the "Yes" ones are still pristine. It is so varied and over such a wide area that it can't be the same person/people.
I've tried to be level headed about it so far but for some reason the mentality of these Yes supporters is really putting me off. Couple this with the almost Religious-like zeal, bigotry and animosity that the Yes supporters at work put out I feel distinctly uncomfortable with the idea of people like that getting the country they want. I know it isn't particularly rational, but if people like that are for something my gut instinct is that the sensible stance is against them!
and then there's the death threats against Jim Sillars and Alex Salmond, the firebombing of a Yes shop a few nights ago,
Firebombings? 😯
I believe that with the forthcoming departure of Scotland, both the US and Australia have asked if we would take them back.
Firebombings?
Yes - it wasn't especially serious, just a wheelie bin pushed against the front of the shop and set alight.
shackleton, my experience exactly!
i travel all over the country (i drive for citylink coaches) and it is mostly the no placards that have been defaced.
i echo your comments about the almost religious zeal of some yes campainers also.
that being said, i feel that as im going to be ruled by ****ers regardless id rather they were scottish ****ers.
i met salmond once, in the early 90s, tbh i thought he was a ****er, but death threats? really?
out of order imo.
Around us nearly every "No" placard has been defaced whereas the "Yes" ones are still pristine.
I've found the culprits:
[img] 
[/img]
😀
are those jersey cows??
Shackleton - Member
Around us nearly every "No" placard has been defaced whereas the "Yes" ones are still pristine. It is so varied and over such a wide area that it can't be the same person/people.I've tried to be level headed about it so far but for some reason the mentality of these Yes supporters is really putting me off. Couple this with the almost Religious-like zeal, bigotry and animosity that the Yes supporters at work put out I feel distinctly uncomfortable with the idea of people like that getting the country they want. I know it isn't particularly rational, but if people like that are for something my gut instinct is that the sensible stance is against them!
Exactly this!!!
something my gut instinct is that the sensible stance is against them!
Or let them have it and then revel in the profound sense of disappointment they will experience every day for the rest of their lives when bugger all changes (of any significance).
Vote yes. Tell all of your friends.
Devomax is a unicorn. Why would the UK govt give the scots devomax if they return a no vote? Wouldn't make sense.
Vote yes. Tell all of your friends.
Devomax is a unicorn. Why would the UK govt give the scots devomax if they return a no vote? Wouldn't make sense.
Because it is politics. Salmond never wanted full independence, he wanted Devo max. Cameron couldn't give it without lots of problems springing up (Wales, NI, even Cornwall). Hence the yes or no referendum.
If a no vote happens then Salmond can leverage Devomax out of UK govt due to the level of support for Yes and Cameron can look magnanimous without actually giving up anything he wasn't going to eventually anyway. Essentially both get to win.
I'm not sure if you've been alive enough time for this, but think back to the eighties when Thatcher used Scotland as a laboratory for the Poll Tax; introducing it a year earlier, just because she could. Or consider what will happen after a No vote when Cameron is back in Downing Street for another five years; imagine what he will do...
An independent Scotland could avoid this.
Never again... Vote Yes.
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If Scotland goes, can the north east of England come with you? Please?
"Scotland's interest involves joining the euro sooner rather than later. For many years now, the pound sterling has been a millstone round Scotland's neck. Sterling is costing Scotland jobs and prosperity in manufacturing, agriculture and tourism."
😉
miketually - Member
If Scotland goes, can the north east of England come with you? Please?
I think support in the NE for being part of Scotland would be fairly low, at least in the bits I know well.
consider what will happen after a No vote when Cameron is back in Downing Street for another five years; imagine what he will do...
Considering that the powers that westminster has over Scotland have been considerably reduced I'd say very little would happen. As much as I dislike Cameron and his ilk he is no Thatcher. Politics and the mentality of politicians has changed an awful lot since the 80s.
If a no vote happens then Salmond can leverage Devomax out of UK govt due to the level of support for Yes
Why? With the threat of independence gone, Uk govt essentially has nothing to lose.
The referendum was the best threat Salmond had for Devomax. Had he not used it, he'd probably have devomax by now.
Forgive the pun, it's a red herring that Salmond wanted devomax all along prob designed to make him look shrewd in cas ehe loses the vote. Salmond wants independence and if he doesn't get it, he'll likely become irrelevant.
I went to see 'From Scotland With Love' at the weekend,it broke my heart.
As I removed my rose tinted specs and wiped away the tears ,I realised how undecided I still am about the vote.
The reasons that I would vote Yes are as passionate as my reasons for voting No.
The narrow minded idiots campainging on both sides don't make it any easier .
In 3 weeks it'll all be over and we can all go back to whinging over the fact that voter turnouts are low and that not enough people are engaged with politics
[url= https://medium.com/@chrisdeerin/theres-no-such-thing-as-monsters-3cbd145ef932 ]So, empathy and solidarity, the effort to see your opponent’s inner nobility: we’re going to need a great deal of it all in the months ahead[/url]
It was utterly brilliant politicking from salmond, get the other side to campaign for what you want. If you have to give salmond credit for anything it's that imo.it's a red herring that Salmond wanted devomax
the looser side will have the bigest toys out pram moment ever,probably make the riots in england look like a playschool tantrum, as some have a lot to gain and some a lot to loose.
Basically it comes down to a choice - the status quo or Salmond's vision of how things will be - one that comes with zero Guarantees in place around such fairly critical elements as currency, EU, Finance sector and oil.
I might be tempted to vote yes if I believed Salmond can deliver everything he says he can, but in reality I know he won't and so for me its a definite no - to much risk involved. Much of it is pie in the sky thinking. The current arrangement isn't perfect, but it could be much much worse.
Agree about the Yes campaign really getting on my nerves. They're making out that a no vote is unpatriotic, plus alot of nastiness creeping in.
I've just renewed with Scottish Power.
Would my bills change if the Scots have their own currency?
the looser side will have the bigest toys out pram moment ever,probably make the riots in england look like a playschool tantrum, as some have a lot to gain and some a lot to loose.
Really? 😆
I might be tempted to vote yes if I believed Salmond can deliver everything he says he can, but in reality I know he won't and so for me its a definite no - to much risk involved. Much of it is pie in the sky thinking. The current arrangement isn't perfect, but it could be much much worse.
Funny thing is though, as pre-election pledges show, westminster never deliver on their promises...
Salmond isn't acting alone, there is a nation of skills and talent who can affect positive change.
No doubt there were folk saying that the potential risks of the internal combustion engine or electricity were too great to develop; risk is necessary for progress...
Food for thought:
[img] 
[/img]
get the other side to campaign for what you want.
He didn't. He's not that clever.
tpbiker - MemberBasically it comes down to a choice - the status quo
Sorry, are you under the impression that anyone's offering the status quo?
For me its just about how we want to be governed.
Scotland will be absolutely fine as an independent state, either that or every other small nation is a miracle.
Ignore the financial soothsayers on the other thread, most of them can't vote anyway and defining the referendum on such narrow parameters almost misses the point entirely.
If you want things to carry on the way they are then vote "No"
If you want us to govern our own country then vote "Yes"
That's the decision you have to make, everything else is just window dressing.
Good luck with your choice
Basically it comes down to a choice - the status quo or Salmond's vision of how things will be
Sorry, but wrong on both. The status quo isn't on offer, if there's a No vote then there's a lot more austerity cuts on the way and the Barnett formula is probably being scrapped so even less funding. Whereas a Yes vote isn't an endorsement of Salmond or the SNP, it's a vote to give us the chance to pick our own government. An independent Scotland might go and vote for the Tories - unlikely but possible.
ohnohesback - MemberI'm not sure if you've been alive enough time for this, but think back to the eighties when Thatcher used Scotland as a laboratory for the Poll Tax; introducing it a year earlier, just because she could. Or consider what will happen after a No vote when Cameron is back in Downing Street for another five years; imagine what he will do...
An independent Scotland could avoid this.
Never again... Vote Yes.
That might actually be the funniest thing I've read so far about the referendum 😀
but, yes, you should definitely base your vote on what a dead woman did 30 years ago.
there is no status quo.
it's not a vote for salmond.
if devomax was an option it'd be on the paper.
[quote=argyle ]there is no status quo.
it's not a vote for salmond.
if devomax was an option it'd be on the paper.
+many.
It's incredible that we can be this close to polling day and yet so many people still don't understand what the choices are. Maybe #PatronisingBTlady is more representative than BT got credit for.
the ploy still seems to be working... 😆wrecker - Member
get the other side to campaign for what you want.He didn't. He's not that clever.
The status quo isn't on offer, if there's a No vote then there's a lot more austerity cuts on the way and the Barnett formula is probably being scrapped so even less funding.
good old "project feart" again
nothing that is different is currently on offer at the moment, anyone who says different is making it up. There's lots of speculation but no offer.
For me its just about how we want to be governed.
Well put Rich. That pretty much sums up how I've developed my thinking over the last month.
I was 'No', but after reading a few books about the subject, pouring over a lot of guff written by the MSM, my views have shifted. There is no story for the MSM to follow the No campaign, as they are not actually offering anything. The Yes campaign therefore get all the attention, as they can be attacked by the No, for suggesting an alternative vision, which in many cases, cannot be proven emphatically. This is simply the reality of a decision such as this - you cannot have all the facts prior to making the decision, but have to make it on a probability.
Once, I'd got my head around that one, I quite quickly changed to Yes.
The Westminster government is more likely to be shifting further and further to the right in the future, and the spending in Scotland has been heavily protected in the last few years, with the full knowledge of the referendum looming.
I'm quite excited by the prospect of Scotland being able to create its own future.
@Shackleton - +1 I too worry about the evangelical nature of the Yes voters in the same way I do for religonists. Their attritional behaviour smacks of someone unwilling to engage and I see this in AD' exasporation on the TV debates. I too only seem to see defaced "No" banners etc. Can't say that I personally know anyone in the Yes camp whose intelect and experience I respect.
@Legend +1 - Too many Scots live with a Chip on their shoulder, Thatcher got it wrong, not because she "trialled" it on the Scots, just because she was wrong about the whole thing, it make perfect adminstrative sense to try something out - Oh and lets not forget, she/they lost that one. I will never grasp, why people can't see that as a triumph of social values and be proud of it. Instead too many run around thinking "when's it going to happen again?" We are not singled out like some kind ethinc group for experiments.
I don't like the idea of breaking away but the notion that we can make things better is a powerful one, I do however then worry about why we can't do this as a Union, the people who live in England, Wales and NI also deserve better, like us.
big_n_daft - Membergood old "project feart" again
come on, it was funny the first time..587th, not so.
the ploy still seems to be working...
If it makes you feel better 😆
if devomax was an option it'd be on the paper.
Absolutely. You doubt it? Vote no and find out......
Isn't it Green scarf "Yes" Blue scarf "No"
I thought it was something about handkerchiefs in the top pocket?
If you believe a party that's campaigned for 80/90 years on a separatist agenda, all of a sudden preferred devo max. Carry on. 😆wrecker - Member
the ploy still seems to be working...If it makes you feel better
If you believe a party that's campaigned for 80/90 years on a separatist agenda, all of a sudden preferred devo max
No, I don't. I think Salmond wants independence. This talk of him being crafty and secretly wanting devomax is bollocks.
I'm not sure either side. I won't get a vote anyway, being a Yorkshireman, but I'm wondering if Scotland gets a YES will we see other areas pushing for a referendum? Wales? Cornwall as was mentioned before and maybe even the likes of Yorkshire? I'm sure I read somewhere this was being considered before, was there a referendum for some sort of devolution in Cornwall with a drastically low turnout which caused them to cancel similar ones in Yorkshire? I may have made that up.
Either way, I'm sure I'm no different to loads of other people outside the south east thinking "shove some funding northwards". They're still talking about things like new runways or new airports, and then trying to help cities in the north by helping the people get to London quicker on the train.
Hence my point.wrecker - Member
No, I don't. I think Salmond wants independence. This talk of him being crafty and secretly wanting devomax is bollocks.
ianmoody - Member
I'm sure I read somewhere this was being considered before, was there a referendum for some sort of devolution in Cornwall with a drastically low turnout which caused them to cancel similar ones in Yorkshire? I may have made that up.
You're probably thinking of this.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_England_devolution_referendums,_2004
Hence my point.
And mine......
come on, it was funny the first time..587th, not so.
Yes supporters need to stop making up stuff about how they are going to be punished for the referendum or about changes block grants etc etc
I use it sparingly, just like a Scot would 😉
I should have maybe read your first post a bit more closely! 😳 Although I do think it was very shrewd on Salmonds part.wrecker - Member
Hence my point.And mine......
The way I see it it is impossible to be sure either way as a lot of the key points can only be known after the referendum and after a long negotiation process . The yes campaign are basically asking you to take a punt . But I can see why people think it is a punt worth taking as there a lot of things wrong in the UK and a chance to say thanks very much but we're going to try things a bit differently is something I can understand . But there is this nagging doubt at the back of my mind saying it's a stupid idea
I've just renewed with Scottish Power.
Would my bills change if the Scots have their own currency?
scotish power is the trade name of the foreign company that takes all the profits
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Power
Food for thought: "10 million could buy"
Yes, but when the sums were done it came in costing just £1.2 million
So the alternative strapline for the poster would have to be
completed at a tenth of the cost Labour quoted!
Public projects delivered on-time and under budget: Welcome to Tory Britain
Why wouldn't Westminster cut the Scottish block grant after a No vote?
Food for thought: "10 million could buy"
No it couldn't, wouldn't even pay there salary and other employment costs for a year.
ohnohesback - Member
Why wouldn't Westminster cut the Scottish block grant after a No vote?
Why would they? If your predicting the future give us some reasons. Unless you have crystal balls you don't know what will happen. Telling people that it will be really bad if they vote no and you will all get spanked isn't really a decent argument.
The only decent reason I have heard from an ex pat Scotsman was he didn't think it would be better but it at least they could **** it up themselves. Not exactly compelling reasoning.
My suspicion is that the block grant has been afforded protected status in the run up to the referendum, to keep public dissatisfaction in Scotland with Westminster to a minimum. Certainly, when compared to the NW of England, where we used to live, the councils there have had their funding slashed in the last few years, since the Tory/Lib govt came in, mostly because of area based grants being removed completely. Recruitment freezes and encouraged early retirement are the norm in councils across the north of England now, whereas in Scotland they are still recruiting as normal, with most teams around the area my Mrs has moved to fully staffed (and unknown phenomenon where she used to work).
So, why has the Barnett formula remained unchanged at the same time grants to elsewhere have been cut? Will it remain unchanged in the near future? I doubt it, but of course you will never get a straight answer about this issue.